Guild Wars 2

Shown below: I’m quoting and taking the credit of my guild leader testing out condition damage vs condition duration of a THIEF. Although it’s a thief, it still displays how the condition damage and duration plays out with bleeding.

As a staff wielder (especially in PvE), most elementalist’s use Eruption in order to stack bleeds on a target. So for a while, I was trying to stack as much condition damage as I could. But now seeing this, my mind has been changed.

“So I did some number crunching and figured I’d show you guys what I came up with. Basically, I wanted to know if stacking more Condition Damage gear would have a benefit over Condition Duration or would the opposite hold true. Based the Bleeding-applying abilities available to the thief, this is what I found:

Damage Comparisons

Sneak Attack (Stealth, Pistol MH)
@1341 Condition damage/ 30% dur / 109.5 dps: 2,848.3 from bleeding (5.2s)
@1281 Condition damage/ 45% dur / 106.5 dps: 3,089.95 from bleeding (5.8s)
@1215 Condition damage/ 75% dur / 103.25 dps: 3,613.5 from bleeding (7s)

Vital Shot (#1 Skill slot, Pistol MH)
@1341 / 30%: 569.66 damage from bleeding (5.2s) per stack
@1281 / 45%: 617.99 damage from bleeding (5.8s) per stack
@1215 / 75%: 722.75 damage from bleeding (7s) per stack

Caltrops (Utility)
@1341 / 30%: 427 damage from bleeding (3.9s) per stack
@1281 / 45%: 463 damage from bleeding (4.35s) per stack
@1215 / 75%: 542 damage from bleeding (5.25s) per stack

Dagger Storm Bleed (DS Elite) / Sigil of Earth (Sigil)
@1341 / 30%: 712 damage from bleeding (6.5s) per stack
@1281 / 45%: 772 damage from bleeding (7.25s) per stack
@1215/ 75%: 903 damage from bleeding (8.75s) per stack

Sigil of Geomancy (Sigil)
@1341 / 30%: 996.9 damage from bleeding (9.1s) (: Sigil Cooldown: 9s)
@1281 / 45%: 1,081.48 damage from bleeding (10.15s) *
@1215 / 75%: 1,264.81 damage from bleeding (12.25s) *

Death Blossom (Dual Skill, Dagger MH, Dagger OH)
@1341 / 30%: 4,275.45 damage from bleeding (13s) (: x3 stacks per DB, 300 unit AoE)
@1281 / 45%: 4,634.925 damage from bleeding (14.5s)*
@1215 / 75%: 5,433.75 damage from bleeding(17.5s)*

So, as you can see, with a class that has access to multiple sources of quickly applicable bleeds, condition duration will allow you not only more bang for your buck, but you will also be able to maintain a higher stack-count of Bleeding on your target given it’s increased duration per stack.
It should also be noted: When stacking bleeds on a target, you will notice that each individual application of bleed entropies independantly of the rest of the bleeds in the stack. Meaning, if you apply one Bleeding condition, which lasts for 5 seconds, and then 2 seconds later apply another, you will only have 2 stacks on the target for 3 seconds because the first stack you applied has expired, even though your target still has the Bleeding Condition.
This brings up my next point, Bleed “Loading”:
The smaller the window you use to apply a large amount of bleeds on a single (or multiple) target(s) will determine your overall efficiency as a Condition Build, in essence; how consistent your damage per second is.

Example:
Death Blossom: 3x Bleeding for 10s (base). Skill Animation time: .8seconds Instant Cast, No Build.So, at the above set-ups, this is the dps for each:

@1341 Condition Damage / 30% duration:
x12 stacks (4x uses of Death Blossom, taking 3.2s of combat time): 12,883 damage at 9.8s of 12 stacks.
So, for 20 Initiative, I get 1,314 dps for 9.8 seconds.

@1281 Condition Damage / 45% duration:
x12 stacks (4x uses of Death Blossom, taking 3.2s of combat time): 14,448 damage over 11.3 seconds. Or: 20 Initiative – 1,278 dps for 11.3 seconds.

@1215 Condition Damage / 75% duration:
x12 stacks (4x uses of Death Blossom, taking 3.2s of combat time): 17,717 damage over 14.3 seconds. Or: 20 Initiative – 1,239 dps for 14.3 seconds."

Now that this shows that condition duration is far better than condition damage (primarily for bleeds as it’s stack intensity), is it even worth going for condition damage? If not, what runes should be used? Lich? Lyssa? If more condition duration would take place of condition damage, what stats would be worth to improve replacing the condition damage?

This is thought provoking.

I hate to ask, but could you run these numbers with an elementalist?

I would like to know if the thief is better or if the elementalist is better. Are these findings the same for all classes?

I think duration in PvE is good, especially if vs bosses or champions and no one esle is bleeding. However from a PvP point of view there are so many condition removals that I think getting the higher damage out for a shorter time might be better. Or just staking both :p

Just my thoughts.

lol. Wrong forum, but for the sake of conversation, Conditions can be removed and attacks can be avoided. Neither one is a replacement for the other.

There are three problems with condition duration over damage.
Keep in mind, I’m a d/d ele who favors earth, so when I do bleeds, I hold the stacks high indefinitely.
First, high condi duration only matter if the entire bleed is going to occur before the enemy dies. This is fine for champions, but for normal mobs and veterans, it’s iffy. Often times, I kill mobs before I can even get my bleeds up to my full stack potential. If your bleeds don’t go through their full duration, then their damage is cut short and the high condi build will probably do more damage faster.
Second, if there are other people inflicting bleed on your target and the total stack capacity of all of you is over 25, your bleed stacks will be limited. You might be stuck with 6 or 8 when you’re capable of 12 or more. Then, your duration doesn’t really matter because you’re stuck at a lower number of stacks anyway. Condi damage helps there.
Finally, in PvP, people will cleanse. The longer they’re bleeding, the more likely they are to cleanse and cut your damage short. It’s better in PvP to do more damage in a short amount of time.
Now, that’s not to say that condi duration is bad. I do both. I have 30 in earth (300 condi damage) and 20 in fire (20% condi duration) plus the serrated stones trait (20% bleed duration). I stack condi damage, though, and use the Superior Rune of the Undead. I can hold 12 stacks of bleed on a target. I can max out at 20 when I use churning earth. And they do lots of damage. Best part about this build is that it helps my burns, too! (Yay for combat options!)

What the point comparing damage and duration? You can renew duraton, but can’t make bigger damage from nothing.

what Pinkerton said

And additionally in your calculation example above the condition damage is lowered by about 10%, on the other hand the condition duration is increased by 45%. If you had much less condition damage to begin with and would lower it by say 50% to gain these 45% duration the numbers would look completely different.
It’s similar to the vitality vs. toughness problem. At some point stacking vitality (“duration”) gives you more “life” than stacking more toughness (“anti-damage”).

In other words: the best way is somewhere in between, as always. And it’s situation dependent (as Pinkerton explained)

I feel like condition damage is better for elementalists, since burns are generally easier to inflict than high stacks of bleed. (maybe not so for scepter/dagger builds, but DD’s I find most of my damage comes from fire attunement burns)

The original theorycrafter was working on thief, which has bursty bleed stacks. Elementalists going for condition damage typically use Dagger/Dagger or Scepter/Dagger, and in both builds bleed stacks are fairly stable (and then there’s burn, which is the other part of our condition damage that doesn’t even stack in the first place).

There are two main situations of stacking bleeds: soft targets (normals and vets) and hard targets (champs and bosses).

Soft targets don’t live long enough for duration to run its course and make a difference. Duration’s main draw is allowing you to have more stacks active at the same time, thus having more DPS for the time period in which you have all of your potential stacks active, but it takes us a bit of time to ramp up to that (we don’t have easy access to bursting it like thieves do) and by then the soft target is dead.

Hard targets have the problem of running into the bleed cap. They can only have so many stacks of bleed active at once, and not all of them will be yours, so the main benefit of duration is out.

Burns of course don’t really benefit at all from duration, as when we’re actively burning a target we keep refreshing the duration pretty much indefinitely.

In PvP, a longer-duration condition just gets cleansed before the duration is up.

Generally you’re better off with condition damage to make every tick count.