Guild Wars 2

Conjure weapons have very specific roles and limitations. Recently Arena net announced the nerf to Frost Bow and lightning hammer. This thread is for the discussion of these nerfs and wether or not they should come to be. And, if so, in what ways should these changes be brought about and for what gamemodes.

Frost Bow :

This is an amazing utility, the skill 4 kits harder than meteor shower but is limited to a smaller area and lower target count, it’s channel can not be broken down without canceling the icestorm.

Frostbow potency;

PvE – it lends a hard Cc of extreme length and the highest damage attack in the entire game onto the same weapon. Bosses with large hit boxes can be nearly instantly destroyed by a team of icebow wielding speed runners.

WvW – Frostbow still provides and extremely high damage attack but it is not nearly so easy to land. With special comps and unaware opponents icebow can kill many mindless ktrainers stacked upon a point doing nothing to escape the wrath of the glass elementalists wielding them. Thief Venoms make this significantly easier to land and provide more damage modifiers.

Lightning hammer:

In progress.

Conjure earth shield:

In progress

Flame Axe:

In progress

Discuss the fate of icebow, where the nerfs should be applicable and what changes should be made.
Does lightning hammer need a nerf?
What changes can be made to flameaxe?
Where is conjure earth shield useful?
How can conjure weapons be improved as a skill type?

Come on do I have to rename this thread goodbye icebow to clickbaite people QQ

You’re just saying obvious things that people already know. The biggest issue is that conjured skills are boring and clunky to use due to the nature of conjured weapons in general. The whole utility category needs an overhaul. As it stands, Frost Bow may as well just be a water attunement off-hand, lightning hammer gets to be an autoattack and fiery greatsword might as well just be Engineer Slick Shoes toolbelt skill except that it also grants invulnerability frames.

Your discussion is in progress because there’s nothing to talk about. You have shield, hammer and axe at the bottom because they’re either never used, or lightning hammer sees use just so the player can press 1 while wielding it.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/Elementalist-improvement/first#post5129400
Look at the conjured weapon tabs and the trait tabs (master tier) if you want a non-anet solution to “fixing” conjured weapons (i.e. something that isn’t just moving a few numbers up or down).

Anyways this is supposed to be a discussion where other community members decide what is best, my statement is just an quick overview for those who do not know the conjure weapons well. Your link may prove to be helpful in the discussion and I’m sure the community will considered your suggestions. Many of them look beyond just a revamp and more like a new class but the base premises will remain applicable.

Erasmus.1624:

You’re just saying obvious things that people already know. The biggest issue is that conjured skills are boring and clunky to use due to the nature of conjured weapons in general. The whole utility category needs an overhaul. As it stands, Frost Bow may as well just be a water attunement off-hand, lightning hammer gets to be an autoattack and fiery greatsword might as well just be Engineer Slick Shoes toolbelt skill except that it also grants invulnerability frames.

Your discussion is in progress because there’s nothing to talk about. You have shield, hammer and axe at the bottom because they’re either never used, or lightning hammer sees use just so the player can press 1 while wielding it.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/Elementalist-improvement/first#post5129400
Look at the conjured weapon tabs and the trait tabs (master tier) if you want a non-anet solution to “fixing” conjured weapons (i.e. something that isn’t just moving a few numbers up or down).

I’m pretty sure you mean rocket boots because slick shoes knocks people down…

And even then it’s more like a stronger version of warrior gs except missing hundred blades….

to make conjures viable they need to act like engineer kits. create a trait that summons a one time pick-up version for allies (merged with other traits).

Jekkt.6045:

to make conjures viable they need to act like engineer kits. create a trait that summons a one time pick-up version for allies (merged with other traits).

You might be interested in the conjured weapon and master tier parts of the trait tabs here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/Elementalist-improvement/first#post5129400

I’m honestly very scared for these nerfs. Not because i dont think they need nerfs, but because they shouldn’t be overnerfed.
In my opinin, though, these conjure weapons -should- be powerful! Any conjure weapon should make your first 5 skills worth more, have some improvement over any regular weapon. Youre sacrificing a utility slot to access a temporary skill bar you cant swap back and forth to with limited uses, so in my opinion this bar should be significantly better than your normal attunement bars, and i’m afraid they’ll just nerf it to the ground. Just like many of the transform elites.
When you replace your skill bar for a fixed one you can’t swap with, and sacrificing a utility slot to do so, you should gain a very significant boost to the power of that skill bar. Or at least get crazy utility or so.

Spyritdragon.6048:

I’m honestly very scared for these nerfs. Not because i dont think they need nerfs, but because they shouldn’t be overnerfed.
In my opinin, though, these conjure weapons -should- be powerful! Any conjure weapon should make your first 5 skills worth more, have some improvement over any regular weapon. Youre sacrificing a utility slot to access a temporary skill bar you cant swap back and forth to with limited uses, so in my opinion this bar should be significantly better than your normal attunement bars, and i’m afraid they’ll just nerf it to the ground. Just like many of the transform elites.
When you replace your skill bar for a fixed one you can’t swap with, and sacrificing a utility slot to do so, you should gain a very significant boost to the power of that skill bar. Or at least get crazy utility or so.

I’d have to disagree almost entirely up until that last sentence. If conjured weapons do more damage than our normal attunements, then they will be required in order to builds for damage. Not only that, but since we have to use both of them to get our highest damage output in this scenario, then someone grabbing our second conjure and using it lowers our output.

I agree that LH and IB need to be nerfed damage-wise. Really, what’s super-strong on IB in PvE at least is the 4 ability. The simple solution would be to make it unable to crit and remove the bleed stacks (while increasing the raw damage). This will allow it to retain its utility for being able to destroy structures better than any other ability without making it better in a larger sense.

LH needs to have its utility and damage moved away from the autoattack and spread out more. The blind and blast on auto-attack should be moved to their own ability. While this won’t increase its use in general PvE groups, that’s a good thing.

IMO, conjures should each have their own niche uses. The Elementalist should sacrifice damage in order to bring some extra utility to a certain fight and on top of that allow another party member to bring that utility as well. No conjure build should EVER be built around hogging both of the conjures.

Fade.1743:

I’d have to disagree almost entirely up until that last sentence. If conjured weapons do more damage than our normal attunements, then they will be required in order to builds for damage. Not only that, but since we have to use both of them to get our highest damage output in this scenario, then someone grabbing our second conjure and using it lowers our output.

I appreciate your sentiment, but I think you have it backwards. Because of the long cooldowns associated with conjured weapons, they need to—while active—be stronger than our other options. If that is not the case, then they are neither worth the utility slot nor the DPS/utility loss. This is especially true on an Elementalist who already has four attunements worth of skills to utilize without cutting into their utility usage.

Anet just hasn’t found the sweet spot where a conjured weapon is worth taking for certain situations or certain builds without deadening the playstyle of the rest of the Elementalist. Certain skills on them are too strong compared to other skills, resulting in them carrying the value of the weapon and turning into a singular-use utility when it was not intended to be so.

For everyone’s benefit here, I’ll quote something I said in the dungeon forum the other day.

Rising Dusk.2408:

For reference, Lightning Hammer is something I’ve already talked to them [developers] about and they had this to say:

• They don’t want to remove builds (ie. S/F) from play.
• They recognize the impact a nerf to LH would have on the S/F build’s viability in PvE.
• The balance team is making changes to the Elementalist based on player feedback.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Fade.1743:

I’d have to disagree almost entirely up until that last sentence. If conjured weapons do more damage than our normal attunements, then they will be required in order to builds for damage. Not only that, but since we have to use both of them to get our highest damage output in this scenario, then someone grabbing our second conjure and using it lowers our output.

I appreciate your sentiment, but I think you have it backwards. Because of the long cooldowns associated with conjured weapons, they need to—while active—be stronger than our other options. If that is not the case, then they are neither worth the utility slot nor the DPS/utility loss. This is especially true on an Elementalist who already has four attunements worth of skills to utilize without cutting into their utility usage.

Anet just hasn’t found the sweet spot where a conjured weapon is worth taking for certain situations or certain builds without deadening the playstyle of the rest of the Elementalist. Certain skills on them are too strong compared to other skills, resulting in them carrying the value of the weapon and turning into a singular-use utility when it was not intended to be so.

For everyone’s benefit here, I’ll quote something I said in the dungeon forum the other day.

Rising Dusk.2408:

For reference, Lightning Hammer is something I’ve already talked to them [developers] about and they had this to say:

• They don’t want to remove builds (ie. S/F) from play.
• They recognize the impact a nerf to LH would have on the S/F build’s viability in PvE.
• The balance team is making changes to the Elementalist based on player feedback.

I’d agree with this if and only if conjures weren’t balanced or played around near 100% upkeep. This makes them too close to being like kits for engineers. If they acted more as a cooldown for some increased damage in certain situations, then I’d totally agree with you.

I’d say the best way around this would be for the Ele to only be able to use the conjured weapon that automatically equips (that way group members can always be free to pick up the second one), remove the charges and make the duration between 50~75% of the CD. On top of actually changing the abilities of the conjures themselves.

I don’t mind if a weapon set (like Sc/F) is built around using LH. I just don’t want to end up in a situation like engineers where the only viable build in PvE (at least that anyone talks about) ends up being a 2-3 conjure weapon build. That was my main concern in the first post.

Fade.1743:

I’d agree with this if and only if conjures weren’t balanced or played around near 100% upkeep. This makes them too close to being like kits for engineers. If they acted more as a cooldown for some increased damage in certain situations, then I’d totally agree with you.

I’d say the best way around this would be for the Ele to only be able to use the conjured weapon that automatically equips (that way group members can always be free to pick up the second one), remove the charges and make the duration between 50~75% of the CD. On top of actually changing the abilities of the conjures themselves.

I don’t mind if a weapon set (like Sc/F) is built around using LH. I just don’t want to end up in a situation like engineers where the only viable build in PvE (at least that anyone talks about) ends up being a 2-3 conjure weapon build. That was my main concern in the first post.

Hm, no. Engis use all skills in kits, every ele uses only #4 on IB and then drops it. It’s 20 sec cd, how is that 100% uptime?

LH is a different story, but IB and LH are the only usable conjure weapons along with fgs. Two of these weapons are used only for one or two skills. Quite long cds if you ask me.

Laraley.7695:

Fade.1743:

I’d agree with this if and only if conjures weren’t balanced or played around near 100% upkeep. This makes them too close to being like kits for engineers. If they acted more as a cooldown for some increased damage in certain situations, then I’d totally agree with you.

I’d say the best way around this would be for the Ele to only be able to use the conjured weapon that automatically equips (that way group members can always be free to pick up the second one), remove the charges and make the duration between 50~75% of the CD. On top of actually changing the abilities of the conjures themselves.

I don’t mind if a weapon set (like Sc/F) is built around using LH. I just don’t want to end up in a situation like engineers where the only viable build in PvE (at least that anyone talks about) ends up being a 2-3 conjure weapon build. That was my main concern in the first post.

Hm, no. Engis use all skills in kits, every ele uses only #4 on IB and then drops it. It’s 20 sec cd, how is that 100% uptime?

LH is a different story, but IB and LH are the only usable conjure weapons along with fgs. Two of these weapons are used only for one or two skills. Quite long cds if you ask me.

Actually, they only use a few skills, but regardless, the issue that I have is in order to play an engineer in PvE you have to use kits. I don’t want conjures to be in the same boat. I’m not saying if you want to use conjures that you should be punished for it. Yes, there’s always going to be one optimal option, but there shouldn’t only be one viable one as well. (At least one viable one that the community only talks about)

I know the IB is currently used for 3~5 in the current version before being dropped. My comments about upkeep were in regards to LH. Sorry for confusion on that.

Fade.1743:

Laraley.7695:

Fade.1743:

I’d agree with this if and only if conjures weren’t balanced or played around near 100% upkeep. This makes them too close to being like kits for engineers. If they acted more as a cooldown for some increased damage in certain situations, then I’d totally agree with you.

I’d say the best way around this would be for the Ele to only be able to use the conjured weapon that automatically equips (that way group members can always be free to pick up the second one), remove the charges and make the duration between 50~75% of the CD. On top of actually changing the abilities of the conjures themselves.

I don’t mind if a weapon set (like Sc/F) is built around using LH. I just don’t want to end up in a situation like engineers where the only viable build in PvE (at least that anyone talks about) ends up being a 2-3 conjure weapon build. That was my main concern in the first post.

Hm, no. Engis use all skills in kits, every ele uses only #4 on IB and then drops it. It’s 20 sec cd, how is that 100% uptime?

LH is a different story, but IB and LH are the only usable conjure weapons along with fgs. Two of these weapons are used only for one or two skills. Quite long cds if you ask me.

Actually, they only use a few skills, but regardless, the issue that I have is in order to play an engineer in PvE you have to use kits. I don’t want conjures to be in the same boat. I’m not saying if you want to use conjures that you should be punished for it. Yes, there’s always going to be one optimal option, but there shouldn’t only be one viable one as well. (At least one viable one that the community only talks about)

I know the IB is currently used for 3~5 in the current version before being dropped. My comments about upkeep were in regards to LH. Sorry for confusion on that.

Actually, from pvp point of view engis use most skills in their kits.
On IB you can use #5 only if there is no defiance and seeing as two are dropped, it’s not always the option. Anyways, the time you spend using the conjure weapon is just a few seconds, they’re on one minut cooldown.

It’s not the only viable option, it’s just highest dps. They’re nerfing damage modifiers on ele and conjures, so yeah I don’t think pursuing the nerf even more is wise.

I don’t take anything from a PvP point of view. I’m not good at sPvP and really don’t like small-scale PvP (though it’s more fun in this game than most).

I’d still have to agree that the nerf for conjures (at least IB and LH) is justified. I’ve given my opinion on what should be done to IB to keep its utility (keeping the 4 ability strong against structures and world bosses as well as CC) while nerfing it’s overall damage for normal mobs.

What LH needs is something useful besides the auto-attack. That’s just boring and cheesy. This is why I recommended removing the charges and nerfing the auto-attack by spreading the AE blind and blast finisher to other abilities. (Maybe put one on the two ability and change the 4). If you can use the LH to give another party member a blast finisher or AE blind, then it increases its group utility without completely destroying the use for the conjured weapon.

The issue I think that Anet has with IB (at least in PvE) is that it’s a mandatory damage increase for the Elementalist (and the group). The standard utility set up of Arcane Blast, Glyph of Storms, and IB has group coordination and flexibility with the first two…and REALLY selfish and mandatory in the latter. Blast is a blast finisher, so while a bit boring, it does require some coordination to use properly to give the maximum benefit. Even if someone puts another field on top of yours, it still aids the team (even if it is less damage). Glyph of Storms having two main uses (vulnerability stack in air and blind in earth) can be supplanted by other professions. Put an engineer in the group, and the Ele can grab a different skill in that slot.

Really, change how the IB4 does its damage and don’t let the 5th ability count towards the 20% increase to CC’d mobs (at least in PvE), and that should remove it being mandatory for almost every fight. At that point it’ll be most useful in say CoF2’s final boss which is a structure. (So niche use)

Guess what’s gonna happen? The same thing that happened to fgs. No one will use it anymore.

I doubt it. Everyone says how FGS was nerfed to the ground, but, when I started playing Ele a couple years ago, it was known that the 4 skill was not implemented as intended. I recall the majority of the Ele forums at the time saying that it was good to learn how to use it, but that it wouldn’t last long.

There are three major differences between the changes that happened to the FGS and the one that will happen to LH. While the LH isn’t being used as intended, it’s not breaking mechanics. To this day, people still stack bosses on a wall even though just stacking out in the open is a better strategy (so thieves can backstab easier). The LH isn’t exploiting a flaw like FGS was. The second is that the FGS nerf came in a balance patch while the LH nerf is coming in a pre-xpac patch. Generally, an expansion is where the developers can do a LOT of changes to the base code. It’s a much bigger and more extensive patch than any feature pack ever can be. This leads to the third difference is that the devs have stated, according to Rising Dusk, that they don’t want to remove the current Sc/F + LH build. This nerf will focus more on balancing the LH than removing an exploit like FGS. Yes, I’m being optimistic with things because none of this is implemented yet and there’s no point in being so kitten ed negative about it. Once it’s out, then feel free to critique it as harshly as possible.

I like to think that they are going to add in shards for conjure weapons where you only need to walk over them to pick them up there by removing cast times for both the ele and the person who picks up one. Though i guess you could be super troll and drop conjure weapons just as a person dose there last big hit on a chain hehe.

As for the weapons them self i would like to see them become more aimed in what they are made for such as making frost bow 4 an dmg/aoe heal or aoe chill.

As long as I can make a full conjure weapon WvW roaming build that is at least semi-effective, I don’t give a crap about what happens.

I use Conjure Earth Shield in my competitive sPvP build. Since you seem interested in a description of all weapons, I would like to contribute.

Conjure Earth shield is an interesting weapon that provides AoE CC and Disruption. It also excels in applying conditions. It is mainly known as the defensive weapon, but few understand how offensive that melee weapon actually is. The Earth Shield is also a reactive weapon; with its on-command invulnerability and Block-Counter, it becomes a formidable defensive tool when used properly. It is without a doubt the hardest conjured weapon to use.

The current known flaws :
-Long cast time for a reactive weapon.
-Lack of Finishers.

Proposed changes:
-Add a Leap Finisher to Magnetic Surge (The 600yrds charge that dazes).
-Add a Projectile Finisher (100% ) (x2) to Crippling Shield (Last attack of the auto-attack combo which throws a boomerang shield).
-Reduce Cast time to 1/2 seconds.

My opinions:
WvW:
Icebow is our greatest weapon against ktrainers bots, anet should never take that away
Lightning hammer is the most unused utility only second too elemental glyphs and conjure earth shield…. needs a buff not a nerf.
Icebow has a small AoE so being able to land it should be rewarding

Leveling – Hammer
Before I got enough SP to get hammer, leveling Ele was one of the most painful experience that I ever had. With low hp/armor class it is just hard to level without constant blind.

PvE – Hammer
Constant blind make 99% of none legendary / champion monsters truly trash (the 1% is mordrem targriffs).

Conjures have 2 main purposes, IMO:

- use as an utility. Cast it, use one or 2 skills, drop it.
That is the case of current IB. It works great for this purpose. Earth shield could be used like this for invul and block, but the long cast time makes it bad for a reactive defense skill. FGS is also currently used a bit like that to run away in PvP/WvW

- use as your main weapon, keeping normal weapon skills for utility.
That is the case of LH. The blinds, dps and blast/leap finishers make it a good weapon overall.
Flame Axe could fall in this category as its a good weapon to build might and has good potential. The problem here is that the autoattack only hits one target.
This category opens up the gameplay of specing for certain attunements while keeping weapon skills not related to that attunement. The LH build that camps water (for more dps on piercing shards) is an exemple. Others could be stoneheart ele with flame axe (for might stacking and dps, mobility)

Suggestions:

Overall
Set traits that improve and focus on each of the above mentioned aspect of the conjures.
Trait one (conjures as an utility) – Makes conjures instant cast and provide bonus on cast/pickup. You have one conjure, second one on the floor for party member.
Trait two (conjures as a main weapon or added to rotation) – Turn conjures into “kits” (so it can be used on every fight) and improve stats bonus when wielding it. No conjure is dropped to allies, cast time still the same.

Conjure changes:
Earth shield – Lower casting time on skills.
Flame axe – autoattack hits up to 3 targets (bounce) and gives might for each one hit (similar to rangers axe auto)
FGS – Improve leap dmg as promissed.

Icebow is no longer being nerfed, hurray ! Now lets just hope tornado becomes instant like plague

Sadrien.3470:

Icebow is no longer being nerfed, hurray ! Now lets just hope tornado becomes instant like plague

Not like it would actually make tornado useful.

Sadrien.3470:

Icebow is no longer being nerfed, hurray ! Now lets just hope tornado becomes instant like plague

I don’t even understand why the reversed their nerf decision, and then turn around and buff it… I thought they didn’t want it to be a “use #4 and toss” deal.

But oh wells.

Yamsandjams.3267:

Sadrien.3470:

Icebow is no longer being nerfed, hurray ! Now lets just hope tornado becomes instant like plague

I don’t even understand why the reversed their nerf decision, and then turn around and buff it… I thought they didn’t want it to be a “use #4 and toss” deal.

But oh wells.

It was clever, though. People were worried about IB being nerfed, so now they’re happy it got some buffs. Very meaningless buffs, though.

Laraley.7695:

Yamsandjams.3267:

Sadrien.3470:

Icebow is no longer being nerfed, hurray ! Now lets just hope tornado becomes instant like plague

I don’t even understand why the reversed their nerf decision, and then turn around and buff it… I thought they didn’t want it to be a “use #4 and toss” deal.

But oh wells.

It was clever, though. People were worried about IB being nerfed, so now they’re happy it got some buffs. Very meaningless buffs, though.

I wouldn’t call them meaningless, but insignificant is a better description. I’m just happy I can still prevent ktrainers bots from roaming freely, because there is no way I can report them all.