Guild Wars 2

I’d really like to see a use for:

-Dragon’s claw
-Impale
-Vapor blade

Currently these auto attacks are not worth using for the most part, Lightning whips auto attack damage is far superior to the other 3 auto attacks, lets look at a pros and cons list.

Vapor blade-

Pros: 600 range, thats +300 more range than lightning whip, applies 1 stack of vulnerability with a base duration of 6 seconds.

Cons: Hits like a small little kitten attacking a giant dragon (Its a very mean kitten). Slow projectile speed making it easy to step out of the way from a distance.

Conclusion: There is not much of a reason to stay in water attunement to auto attack, other than to get that slight range advantage on an enemy who has you immobilized, snared, chilled.

Impale-

Pros: Does not require LOS, 1 stack of bleed which may help vs an opponent which you may not always be able to apply pressure on in the form of direct damage.

Cons: short range making it hard to kite with, only hits one target, doesn’t work with signet of restoration. Additional 1/4s (3/4s cast time on impale) cast time compared to all other auto attacks.

Conclusion: Impale has some great uses in specific scenarios, but lightning whip will usually be a better choice for auto attacking.

Dragon’s claw-

Pros: 3 simultaneous projectiles, 400 range.

Cons: Lightning whip is far superior.

Conclusion: The only thing dragon’s claw has going for it is raw damage and perhaps a chance to remove blind while still doing some damage. Lightning whip is far superior to dragon’s claw when it comes to raw damage.

Lets look at the damage difference between dragon’s claw and lightning whip.

I have 2870 power
34% crit dmg
10% dmg modifier from earth 10 trait
my build = 0/15/10/15/30
I’m testing damage in spvp

I hit a thief with ~2000 armor with dragons claw, when one of the balls crits it hits for ~670. 3 balls critting from one auto attack would = 2010 dmg from one dragon’s claw auto attack. This wont usually happen.

Lightning whip can crit for 1250 from hitting once, it also hits twice per attack, it also hits more targets than dragon’s claw. If I crit with both attacks from the single time I use Lightning whip, it hits for 2500 on the thief I am attacking.

1x dragon’s claw (1/2s cast) with 3 crits = 2010 dmg to theif
1x lightning whip (1/2s cast) with 2 crits (also hits more targets than Dragon’s claw) = 2500 dmg to theif

Lightning whip wins by a landslide, there is very little reason to use dragons claw over lightning whip.

This is what I think needs to be done:

Dragon’s claw should either out dps lightning whip or provide some benefit which makes it really worth using, its hard to land all three of those claws from the single auto atk
unless you are very close up to your enemy.

Impale should get increased range and a1/2s (from 3/4s) cast timer.

Vapor blade’s range should be extended , giving d/d ele some fighting chance vs classes that are kiting. The damage is low, and thats fine. Increase the projectile speed so there is actually a chance of this landing this attack from a distance. Increase the duration of the vulnerability stacks so it serves an all around purpose, to stack vulnerability before bursting. There should be some sort of fair trade off for using the vapor blade auto attack opposed to the other three IMO, I’d say the range was it but due to the slow projectile speed its too easy to sidestep the traveling blade from a distance.

I disagree for the most part. Vapor blade has synergy with the 20% extra damage to vulnerable targets while in water. It also had the longest range for a skirmish weapon.

The earth auto is weak in regards to its close range, however the bleed duration is awesome and it can make condi builds dangerous. All it needs is a greater range.

The fire auto is pretty plain and not used much. Change our to a single fire attack and make dps equal to half of lightning whips

FrownyClown.8402:

I disagree for the most part. Vapor blade has synergy with the 20% extra damage to vulnerable targets while in water. It also had the longest range for a skirmish weapon.

The earth auto is weak in regards to its close range, however the bleed duration is awesome and it can make condi builds dangerous. All it needs is a greater range.

The fire auto is pretty plain and not used much. Change our to a single fire attack and make dps equal to half of lightning whips

Dragon’s claw should serve some purpose so there is more of a reason to use it imo, sure it has a slight range advantage opposed to lightning whip but seriously that 100 additional range isn’t going to make Dragons claw > Lightning whip. Maybe the damage doesn’t need to be higher but it should have SOME sort of purpose.

And the comments about vapor blade… seriously? You’re okay with people just stepping to the side to avoid the attack? Its our weakest auto attack as far as damage, it should at least land if one doesn’t dodge it.

Dragon’s Claw does help against blinds and aegis since it hits in multiple packages. Vapor Blade has its uses too, mostly because it hits everything in a line. Especially in PvE, the 600 range can make the difference between being able to hit your target, and twiddling your thumbs because you cannot be in melee for some reason (boss attack for example). It’s not great, but no other melee weapon has a 600 range auto.

ThiBash.5634:

Dragon’s Claw does help against blinds and aegis since it hits in multiple packages. Vapor Blade has its uses too, mostly because it hits everything in a line. Especially in PvE, the 600 range can make the difference between being able to hit your target, and twiddling your thumbs because you cannot be in melee for some reason (boss attack for example). It’s not great, but no other melee weapon has a 600 range auto.

The only reason it has such a long range on a melee weapon set is because its now classified as a melee attack it is classified as a projectile this also mean it can be reflected, this also applies to dragons claw (also a projectile).
Only lighting whip and impale are considered melee attacks as those can not be reflected and also why they are both at max 300 range. You also have to remember we are elementalist we are not actually hitting the opponent with out weapons but rather our spells that we channel through our weapons.

Anybody besides me notice dd auto attacks are not 1/2 second like the tool tip says. I mean try it out. Spam your 1 key. It takes about a full second from the time you press 1 before the bar goes up and the animation finishes and you can start the second auto attack. Maybe if you could actually use an auto attack every 1/2 second they would be alright.

Ancient Ranger.3276:

ThiBash.5634:

Dragon’s Claw does help against blinds and aegis since it hits in multiple packages. Vapor Blade has its uses too, mostly because it hits everything in a line. Especially in PvE, the 600 range can make the difference between being able to hit your target, and twiddling your thumbs because you cannot be in melee for some reason (boss attack for example). It’s not great, but no other melee weapon has a 600 range auto.

The only reason it has such a long range on a melee weapon set is because its now classified as a melee attack it is classified as a projectile this also mean it can be reflected, this also applies to dragons claw (also a projectile).
Only lighting whip and impale are considered melee attacks as those can not be reflected and also why they are both at max 300 range. You also have to remember we are elementalist we are not actually hitting the opponent with out weapons but rather our spells that we channel through our weapons.

You’d think projectiles should be stronger since they can be reflected and blocked easier than other ranged attacks…

Also +1 to the guy above. Our auto isn’t as it should be, but since no one pays attention to such things… it probably wont get fixed any time soon or at all (and it will be a tooltip fix haha).

I just want Impale to work with Signet of Restoration’s passive. Seriously, this bug has been present for months AND had been acknowledged by a dev, but still hasn’t been fixed.

I don’t think they need much change. I’ve in the past asked for most of our attacks to be whips for continuity.

Flame whip, lightning whip, earth whip and vapor blade is fine, I love the skill, but I wouldn’t be opposed to it getting changed to water whip.

This kind of simplifies our autos if they were all to be the same range, just with different damage modifiers.

Protip: Impale is the only autoattack you can use regardless of the direction you’re facing.

sorrow.2364:

Protip: Impale is the only autoattack you can use regardless of the direction you’re facing.

This is true, but you rarely see much use out of this advantage given its short range.

Its by design, thats why they created fresh air. They planned for us to swap out of air for a couple of skills at a time and to go back to air for best efficiency.

Yeah I don’t agree with your logic there. The game existed a year without fresh air, so it wasn’t their plan to begin with, and fresh air isn’t a trait everyone chooses.

Not the original design, the design direction lately. Lightning whip also didnt have cleave originally if you really want to go there.

I read a comment justifying vapor blade using a PvE scenario… PvE? Who does that?

Vaporblade needs faster projectile speed, it should have to be dodged, blocked, or reflected if you want to avoid it at all times, not sidestep out of the way and I’m okay. I also think it would make more sense if this ability stacked more vulnerability stacks per cast with slightly longer vulnerability duration in order to burst harder. It still would take a while to stack up the vulnerability and most people who play smart have a condi cleanse anyway.

As for the impale bug? Yeah! How ridiculous is it that Impale still doesn’t work with signet of restoration… I’m no programer but isn’t that an easy fix? Just imagine if the range on impale was maybe 500 or 600, we could actually have some sort of shot at kiting well as d/d.

And back to dragons claw… What about this?

1 claw land – Normal damage
2 claws land – Damage increased by X% when second claw lands
3 claws land – Damage increased by X% when third claw lands

The auto attack could be balanced around the idea that it would be a gamble to use
but if you got lucky with 3 crits in a row from your one auto attack, it could hit a little harder than lightning whip.

OR

Perhaps it should just provide some sort of condition with a low duration, like torment? Mind you I said with a low duration in mind.

vapor blade is actually a decent skill for a healing ele, it all depends on what you put between you and what you are attacking.
in PvE,
When I use vapor blade, I try and keep at least 1 or more players between me and my target, if I can throw in an enemy in there too I will. So I can hit 2 or more enemies and/or a player or two which at the same time does damage to the enemies, heals the friendlies.
Now while that wont keep my teammates from dying, what it does do is make it much longer before they have to pop their own heals or having me come in and throw in a large group aoe heal.

IMO Dragon’s Claw should deal additional damage to burning foes. It’s so easy to apply burning with main hand dagger. It’s a shame it misses out on a potential damage boost from that burning. Increased projectile speed on vapor blade would be nice. Impale could use faster cast time. Of course, there several other skills on D/D that could use some work too.

tweeve.3782:

vapor blade is actually a decent skill for a healing ele, it all depends on what you put between you and what you are attacking.
in PvE,
When I use vapor blade, I try and keep at least 1 or more players between me and my target, if I can throw in an enemy in there too I will. So I can hit 2 or more enemies and/or a player or two which at the same time does damage to the enemies, heals the friendlies.
Now while that wont keep my teammates from dying, what it does do is make it much longer before they have to pop their own heals or having me come in and throw in a large group aoe heal.

Wait, what? Do you mean you set it up this way so that you can use Cone of Cold to heal allies when you have the positioning right, or does Vapor Blade do healing? I can’t find anything anywhere about a healing component to Vapor Blade.

Toolbox.9375:

tweeve.3782:

vapor blade is actually a decent skill for a healing ele, it all depends on what you put between you and what you are attacking.
in PvE,
When I use vapor blade, I try and keep at least 1 or more players between me and my target, if I can throw in an enemy in there too I will. So I can hit 2 or more enemies and/or a player or two which at the same time does damage to the enemies, heals the friendlies.
Now while that wont keep my teammates from dying, what it does do is make it much longer before they have to pop their own heals or having me come in and throw in a large group aoe heal.

Wait, what? Do you mean you set it up this way so that you can use Cone of Cold to heal allies when you have the positioning right, or does Vapor Blade do healing? I can’t find anything anywhere about a healing component to Vapor Blade.

He is likely thinking of Cone of Cold. Vapor Blade does no healing. Minimal damage but inflicts a single stack of Vul per target hit. Very much sounds like he is getting the Auto attack (Vapor Blade) confused with the #2 skill (Cone of Cold)

Cecilia.5179:

IMO Dragon’s Claw should deal additional damage to burning foes. It’s so easy to apply burning with main hand dagger. It’s a shame it misses out on a potential damage boost from that burning. Increased projectile speed on vapor blade would be nice. Impale could use faster cast time. Of course, there several other skills on D/D that could use some work too.

Any change to make it useful would be wonderful.

Vapor blade does (assuming the blade hits on the way back as well…) 44% of the damage of Lightning whip. Even with the weakness trait it only does 50% of the damage (again assuming both passes hit).

Just having synergy with something isn’t good enough, the synergy and base skill have to be good enough to make it feasible. We could add a grandmaster trait that added 1% damage whilst in water, and claim it to be balanced because it synergises with other things, but it would clearly be massively underpowered. In this case the trait is balanced, but the basic ability is pitiful.

As for the range on vapour blade, it already comes with the same penalty as all our staff auto attacks – and an unfairly large proportion of our other stronger attacks across all weapons – that it is an absolute faceroll to avoid. This alone balances out its range.

It’s base dps should be doubled so that if both passes hit, and the ability is traited, it matches lightning whip. In reality in pvp/wvw currently that trait is unlikely to be used, and the blade will hit at most once per pass, so we will still lose 55% in auto attack damage on swapping to water, but thats better than the current 80% loss.

Auto attack is the source of a classes of sustained dps, so even in water it should be sustainable. Not having any good damage abilities until we attunement swap, and the time spent healing is already enough of a dps loss to make up for the fact we are in a healing attunement.

Also, all dagger auto-attacks need to be buffed to actually have the cast time they say they do, they are probably being balanced around this cast time, which is why most of them are so underwhelming.

GoodWithGravy.8019:

Also, all dagger auto-attacks need to be buffed to actually have the cast time they say they do, they are probably being balanced around this cast time, which is why most of them are so underwhelming.

I believe the time listed on the tooltip is correct, but I’d haven’t tested it lately.

This is the “cast time”, meaning it’s the time before the ability activates. You can be interrupted during the cast time, which would prevent the ability from occuring. After the cast time completes, there is an “aftercast” animation that is not denoted on the tooltip, although the ability has performed its effect already and can’t be interrupted (assuming it’s not a channeled ability, of course).

You’ll notice that some abilities are listed with no cast time, but do not simply occur instantly because they have an associated “aftercast” animation (i.e. flashing blade, infiltrator’s strike, updraft).

So although the actual “cast time” is 1/2s, the actual attack speed of the ability is longer due to the aftercast delay.

In addition to removing blinds & aegis, Dragon’s Claw is also useful for proccing Renewing Stamina, since 3x hit = 3x chance to crit.

At level 80 with no precision from gear but Fury (which any standard D/D build will have 100% of the time) there’s only a 42% chance that you won’t proc Renewing Stamina with a Dragon’s Claw if all three attacks hit.

Well, by ANet’s logic this means we should nerf Lightning Whip to encourage the use of the other 3 auto attacks, right? ;D

Yamsandjams.3267:

Snip

Yea, fair point, sounds right to me.

Viking Jorun.5413:

Well, by ANet’s logic this means we should nerf Lightning Whip to encourage the use of the other 3 auto attacks, right? ;D

“Air attunement dps too high, RTL recast increased to 30/60 seconds”

It’s not even the same weapon slot QQ

It really bugs me that vapor blades range goes from 600 to about 200 when you run forward and cast it >.<

bump, devs need to look into this!

GoodWithGravy.8019:

Vapor blade does (assuming the blade hits on the way back as well…) 44% of the damage of Lightning whip. Even with the weakness trait it only does 50% of the damage (again assuming both passes hit).

But it also causes 2 stacks of vulnerability, something people often overlook. And it hits everything in a line, so in some occasions it’ll be more useful than Lightning Whip (and sometimes it won’t be).

And it’s still a spammable 600 range attack, something full melee weapons never have. Flamethrower is the only thing that comes close.

ThiBash.5634:

But it also causes 2 stacks of vulnerability, something people often overlook. And it hits everything in a line, so in some occasions it’ll be more useful than Lightning Whip (and sometimes it won’t be).

+2% damage for 55% (more practically 78%) dps loss?
On a skirmish weapon?
It’s not that it isn’t there, it’s just not enough.

ThiBash.5634:

And it’s still a spammable 600 range attack, something full melee weapons never have. Flamethrower is the only thing that comes close.

GoodWithGravy.8019:

As for the range on vapour blade, it already comes with the same penalty as all our staff auto attacks – and an unfairly large proportion of our other stronger attacks across all weapons – that it is an absolute faceroll to avoid. This alone balances out its range.

I stand by this, increase projectile velocity or make them track in arcs, and continue through a target to their max range along that arc length before returning (this one please) and the range might actually be a bonus instead of a detriment. Having something unique is only good if it gives us an advantage, (or is at least on par and a novelty).

Honestly though id much rather earth’s auto attack got some attention. It needs to not require a target to use, and needs to be some kind of cleave (like just about every other close combat auto in the game). I think having it sweep out a 90 degree cone from right to left over the period of 1/2 a second would be a pretty nice mechanic.

Edited to underp my maths.

There is a stronger difference between Dragon’s claw and Lightning whip than people realize. Lightning whip is a cleave; meaning it behaves like a melee weapon. This is often good when you are surrounded by opponents, but if your opponents are somewhat further apart it will not hit them, while Dragon’s claw will.

On top of this, with glyphs and traits, Dragon’s claw will inflict burning, while Lightning whip will inflict weakness; which while very powerful is not ideal for a build that includes condition damage (like Celestial).

Air is only the highest damaging atunement on certain builds, and the other autoattacks are far from useless and only water is particularly weak, however, it is the best support atunement due to the vulnerablity. In small group skirmishes combining it with allies’ massive attacks (like Maul, 100b, etc.) is devestating.

It also allows you to kite with all of Ele’s plentiful CC on D/D, including the chance to chill opponents when using the respective glyph.

At least that’s my two cents…

ThiBash.5634:

GoodWithGravy.8019:

Vapor blade does (assuming the blade hits on the way back as well…) 44% of the damage of Lightning whip. Even with the weakness trait it only does 50% of the damage (again assuming both passes hit).

But it also causes 2 stacks of vulnerability, something people often overlook. And it hits everything in a line, so in some occasions it’ll be more useful than Lightning Whip (and sometimes it won’t be).

And it’s still a spammable 600 range attack, something full melee weapons never have. Flamethrower is the only thing that comes close.

Vapor blade isn’t a melee based skill though, its a projectile. It can be reflected. It should travel its full distance while running forward making it actually useful when needing further range with d/d. As for all the people saying blah blah vapor blade should lose range when running forward because of physics, go throw a boomerang and try to out run it.

Frankly, using autos in PvP or WvW as a d/d ele isn’t particularly practical, and if you’re forced into using them because you ran out of attunements that just means you need more practice. When I see an enemy ele switch to lightning and try to whip me, I know I can 1v1 them with no problem even on my staff, because there’s pretty much always something better to do with your time (like use any skill that isn’t an auto haha).
In PvE, where damage is the only thing that matters, I can see this being a problem.

I can’t even remember the last time I cast vapor blade or impale, and I d/d moderately often.

Hannelore.8153:

There is a stronger difference between Dragon’s claw and Lightning whip than people realize. Lightning whip is a cleave; meaning it behaves like a melee weapon. This is often good when you are surrounded by opponents, but if your opponents are somewhat further apart it will not hit them, while Dragon’s claw will.

This is terrible advice, that additional 100 range on dragon’s claw isn’t going to save the day, in fact it almost ensures anyone not running in a straight line will not get hit by most of the attack.

Hannelore.8153:

On top of this, with glyphs and traits, Dragon’s claw will inflict burning, while Lightning whip will inflict weakness; which while very powerful is not ideal for a build that includes condition damage (like Celestial).

You don’t seem to have a clear understanding of celestial armor potential. lingering elements can completely screw over glyph of elemental power over by the way.

Hannelore.8153:

Air is only the highest damaging atunement on certain builds, and the other autoattacks are far from useless and only water is particularly weak, however, it is the best support atunement due to the vulnerablity. In small group skirmishes combining it with allies’ massive attacks (like Maul, 100b, etc.) is devestating.

Dragon’s claw will never out damage lightning whip regardless of build… Impale can out dps lightning whip if you’re high condition damage with dagger main hand but that kind of build is only going to pan out well for 1v1, and only on occasion when versing noobs or people with little condi clear… The vulnerability on vapor blade isn’t going to provide better returns on dps in ANY situation. Why? Because you can do way more damage by playing your class normally opposed to a dodo throwing vapor blades all day.

Hannelore.8153:

It also allows you to kite with all of Ele’s plentiful CC on D/D, including the chance to chill opponents when using the respective glyph.

Do you even play an ele?

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Frankly, using autos in PvP or WvW as a d/d ele isn’t particularly practical, and if you’re forced into using them because you ran out of attunements that just means you need more practice. When I see an enemy ele switch to lightning and try to whip me, I know I can 1v1 them with no problem even on my staff, because there’s pretty much always something better to do with your time (like use any skill that isn’t an auto haha).
In PvE, where damage is the only thing that matters, I can see this being a problem.

I can’t even remember the last time I cast vapor blade or impale, and I d/d moderately often.

See? This is what I’m talking about, thats exactly how useless these auto attacks are.

Now what if impale actually had better range? Lets say a warrior pops endure pain, you’re in earth attunement and now have a better possibility of kiting while hitting him with impale and at least applying some bleed damage while hes completely immune to direct damage. A big problem with impale is the slow cast time along with the 300 range, by the time you cast it more than once your opponent could already be out of range if he clears any movement impairing condition.

What if vapor blade actually traveled a full 600 or even 900 units in front of you regardless of you running forward. Lets say you had ran out of mobility options and are trying to chase down someone running away. You could then at least apply a little bit of pressure until you had better options come up. This wouldn’t be op at all, the further you are away from vapor blade the better chance your opponent has of just running to the side and completely nullifying the attack, you don’t even have to dodge for christ sake -.-

These situations wouldn’t come up all the time, but if they did it would be nice to have these auto attacks actually provide some sort of valuable use for the short time you would use them.

Grimreaper.5370:

As for all the people saying blah blah vapor blade should lose range when running forward because of physics, go throw a boomerang and try to out run it.

Actually if you are running forward physics states it would gain range, which can be seen from a basic inertial Galilean frame transform. Maybe with a boomerang moving in an arc it would haves some effect, but vapor blade goes straight forwards and back, so it’s more like something on a spring.

This may be on a small tangent to the topic. Oops.

GoodWithGravy.8019:

Grimreaper.5370:

As for all the people saying blah blah vapor blade should lose range when running forward because of physics, go throw a boomerang and try to out run it.

Actually if you are running forward physics states it would gain range, which can be seen from a basic inertial Galilean frame transform. Maybe with a boomerang moving in an arc it would haves some effect, but vapor blade goes straight forwards and back, so it’s more like something on a spring.

This may be on a small tangent to the topic. Oops.

Thats actually pretty interesting, I went and looked into the topic some