Guild Wars 2

Hi,

One word can summarize what makes d/d way to strong : sustain

Fix the absolutely incredible ability to survive 2 x berserker or marauder , bail from the fight and come back a few seconds later ready to go.

Thanks

Easy/lazy fix that might make the current meta more interesting, not necessarily a nerf.

Remove 25% of stats from cele’s defensive stats, and evenly distribute those points into the offensive stats of cele.

P.S. Bunker metas are kind of boring

I I.7359:

Hi,

One word can summarize what makes d/d way to strong : sustain

Fix the absolutely incredible ability to survive 2 x berserker or marauder , bail from the fight and come back a few seconds later ready to go.

Thanks

lot of classes can survive 2v1s (its called bunker builds)….
Ele has been doing that for a while… being able to survive a 2 zerkers while waiting for a teammate to rotate over for help is nothing new…

The problem they never had this kind of damage output with bunker builds. Compared to other bunker builds, nothing come close to DPS that ele can ramp up to (great might stacking to ramp up raw power and the constant burn pressure)… not to mention most bunker builds don’t even have half the mobility ele can…

Normally when you take a bunker build, you have to give up something (like dps/mobility). Same with a zerk build (you give up a bit of defense/condi cleansing,stu breaks, etc)

In cele ele DD, you aren’t giving up anything. Its got NO drawbacks right now. its a great package, everything rolled into one.

- People that claim for sustain nerfs clearly don’t play ele and what is worse: dont even try to think that sustain is the only thing that lets eles be played: Eles have no invulnerability skills like warrior, or life, or armor, or second health like necros, or stealth like thief’s and mesmers or range if they are d/d. You focus a ele without cantrips and water attunement and he is totally dead. SUSTAIN lets you PLAY the class.

- People that claim more than 2/3 nerfs without thinking on buffing other thing don’t understand how much changing things can ruin the class. Just play the d/d meta without 2 or 3 traits that grant you might and you will totally feel the drop in dps.

- DMG wise, burning is the problem with the class, but with only burning and limited bleeding as dmg conditions a nerf in burning needs to consider how it can affect condition builds to not destroy them. This balancing approach is good but not easy.

- Another (and probably better) way of fixing the dmg is reducing the free might traits, and making eles need to blast fire fields to maintain the dmg pressure (a thing that in combat is not that easy).

Naurgalen.2374:

- People that claim for sustain nerfs clearly don’t play ele and what is worse: dont even try to think that sustain is the only thing that lets eles be played: Eles have no invulnerability skills like warrior, or life, or armor, or second health like necros, or stealth like thief’s and mesmers or range if they are d/d. You focus a ele without cantrips and water attunement and he is totally dead. SUSTAIN lets you PLAY the class.

- People that claim more than 2/3 nerfs without thinking on buffing other thing don’t understand how much changing things can ruin the class. Just play the d/d meta without 2 or 3 traits that grant you might and you will totally feel the drop in dps.

- DMG wise, burning is the problem with the class, but with only burning and limited bleeding as dmg conditions a nerf in burning needs to consider how it can affect condition builds to not destroy them. This balancing approach is good but not easy.

- Another (and probably better) way of fixing the dmg is reducing the free might traits, and making eles need to blast fire fields to maintain the dmg pressure (a thing that in combat is not that easy).

specing into arcane for elemental attunement (baseline) alone gives you near perma protection, and protection gives more armor rating than a warriors heavy armor. this post about the nerfs to the meta d/d fire build which takes cantrips to include mist form (which is an invulnerability.) a lot of other classes count on vamp runes to survive, you could too. personally I like to play a cele D/F build similar to the meta, only take air instead of fire, arcane shield, arcane wave, and lightning flash. the mobility alone makes me highly survivable with the passive 25% speed boost + lightning flash, then theres obsidian flesh (4 sec invuln that can be used while attacking and is not a cantrip.) and yet somehow the build is still OP.

as a main ele, I support ele sustain nerfs (as long as it comes from the water trait line.) the insane sustain from soothing mists gives way too much healing to make it required to take in any build ele’s can think up, nerfing the water trait line would help open the door to make more builds viable. there is a lot buffs I would love to see to scepter and some utility skills, but nerfing soothing mist is the first step to open the door to new builds.

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Literally just nerf cantrips and buff the other utility types, and everything will be a-ok.

Uh, no.­ How is that only nerfing d/d ele? This is the kind of very bad blind nerf we don’t want.

Our only meta build for the entire history of the game has been cantrips + water + arcane. I think that a good solution would change that, at the very least.

Like it or not, the core of D/D ele is water cantrip synergy, and reallocating that power is probably the only thing that will actually create build variety.

Sure, but the reason why it is like that affect all builds not just d/d and is not what is the problem with d/d.

The real problem that exist with d/d cele is that it can still do so much damage despite investing so much into defense. That it is possible to have it all is the problem. A problem that none of the other weapons have with all that exist atm.

So, IMO, the problem lies with d/d skills letting them access too much of what they should not considering what they invested into. Not cantrips. Cantrips are only taken because no other alternative to fulfill the profession needs exist otherwise. Make it so that a glyph or a signet can fulfill these needs and you will see plenty of diversity. People are all too willing to see new path and options as long as they are viable.

Maybe remove one blast finisher and add cd on fire fields as well as reduce burning for all… start with something that will only touch the problem not what is not.

I’ve played ele and fought them many times and for me the most obvious solution to the “celestial menace” would be to remove or reduce the healing from the water skills of the dual wield weapons.

I have no problem with elementalists being tanky, nor do I have an issue with their burst or high condition damage if they’re specced that way. But I don’t believe they should be able to fully heal themselves from 30% health without touching their heal skill especially on such short cooldowns.

For me, it’s not fun to play or fight a class that can out-dps, out-heal and out-sustain the enemy with little to no risk.

another solution might be swap glyps and cantrips in the trait lines. So air affects cantrips and water glyphs. So cantrips will get a boon regarding the element used in and glyphs the regen + vigor. Then see what will happen.

Wolfric.9380:

another solution might be swap glyps and cantrips in the trait lines. So air affects cantrips and water glyphs. So cantrips will get a boon regarding the element used in and glyphs the regen + vigor. Then see what will happen.

ele’s get 5.5 secs of vigor on a 5 sec cd every time they crit without even changing their build. the vigor part of that trait is useless. they get 5 1/2 secs of regen on a 8.5s recharge with elemental attunement, the main thing that trait gives is the reduced recharge on cantrips, it is not that great of a trait, d/d would just swap to cleansing a condi on attuning to water (also cleanses for allies.) that trait really is not as good as you make it sound

they should simply move some of the core ele traits and functions to tempest.
this way ele gets nerfed without really getting nerfed, and tempest becomes useful.

SkiTz.4590,

I think we all understand what a bunker is and what is OP about the ele, that’s the point in this thread. Pick what you feel should be changed. IMHO I think it’s the sustain.
thanks

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

P Fun Daddy.1208:

Literally just nerf cantrips and buff the other utility types, and everything will be a-ok.

Uh, no.­ How is that only nerfing d/d ele? This is the kind of very bad blind nerf we don’t want.

Our only meta build for the entire history of the game has been cantrips + water + arcane. I think that a good solution would change that, at the very least.

Like it or not, the core of D/D ele is water cantrip synergy, and reallocating that power is probably the only thing that will actually create build variety.

Sure, but the reason why it is like that affect all builds not just d/d and is not what is the problem with d/d.

The real problem that exist with d/d cele is that it can still do so much damage despite investing so much into defense. That it is possible to have it all is the problem. A problem that none of the other weapons have with all that exist atm.

So, IMO, the problem lies with d/d skills letting them access too much of what they should not considering what they invested into. Not cantrips. Cantrips are only taken because no other alternative to fulfill the profession needs exist otherwise. Make it so that a glyph or a signet can fulfill these needs and you will see plenty of diversity. People are all too willing to see new path and options as long as they are viable.

Maybe remove one blast finisher and add cd on fire fields as well as reduce burning for all… start with something that will only touch the problem not what is not.

I would argue that d/d uses cantrips best, and since having four useless utility types (soon to be five, probably) is the single biggest problem our class faces, that would be where I direct my attention. This is also because most of the things that make people really complain about ele, like near-permanent regen, vigor, protection, mobility, cleanses, and even a good chunk of our might comes from cantrips.
I’m not suggesting only a nerf to cantrips, I want the other utility types buffed, but that being said I don’t think any good thing can happen to the class with cantrips in their current overloaded state.

Mightybird.6034:

PS and if you really think the devs are gonna listen to a thread like this……….you realize there have been 1,000s of these threads on ALL classes? If they listened to these x class is OP thread we’d all be playing kittens with mittens.

Ofc not, they never visit the ele forums.

Anyways, d/d ele need a slight nerf, but I definitely do not agree with many posts here due to the fact there is a very thin line between ele being too strong and too weak. It’s not really hard to overnerf ele and I think that’s the reason we haven’t seen any d/d ele nerf. They are simply scared of doing it again.

What needs to happen are frequent balance patches. Just adjusting burning on ele (and imo in general) along with the might generation should change a lot, then you can nerf something else if it’s not enough.

psizone.8437:

I’ve played ele and fought them many times and for me the most obvious solution to the “celestial menace” would be to remove or reduce the healing from the water skills of the dual wield weapons.

I have no problem with elementalists being tanky, nor do I have an issue with their burst or high condition damage if they’re specced that way. But I don’t believe they should be able to fully heal themselves from 30% health without touching their heal skill especially on such short cooldowns.

Obviously since the heal they’re using is the Signet, which actually requires you not to touch it to get the most out of it.

Easy, adjust numbers on Evasive Arcana. Fixed. Not enough? Well, then adjust the numbers on it again along with Healing Ripple, but come on lets not nerf something that has actually counterplay – heal on weapon skills.

Nerfing the Fire Line would probably be a good start. Defensive Earth/Water/Arcana Eles aren’t even very strong, so it’s not really the sustain that’s bad about the Ele so much as the high amount of damage and blinds combined with the sustain the Ele gives.

I I.7359:

SkiTz.4590,

I think we all understand what a bunker is and what is OP about the ele, that’s the point in this thread. Pick what you feel should be changed. IMHO I think it’s the sustain.
thanks

You nerf the sustain than you basically kill the class, just saying. Any thief or mesmer would drop an ele without its sustain in less than 5 secs out of stealth.

There are right things to nerf, than there are wrong things. Sustain nerf is wrong.

As some already said,i think burn stacking on dagger main hand is ridiculous.I ve seen 1.5k burn dmg on my knight ele,which has 0condie dmg…. and i wasnt even trying to stack it…. .

I personally believe,that if one wants dmg he should go zerk which means he will be squishie,dunno why there is this cele is ok fetish ppl got.Dishing out 5-6k fire grabs by a guy healing like semi god with soothing mist/regen and heal on cast “and more heals on water skill/dodge”,having loads of boons,dealing crap load of condie dmg while still being tankie is just OP.

Mightybird.6034:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

I’m pretty sure that even most of the Elementalist community agrees….

Naw. I don’t think it needs a nerf and I’d say most in the real pvp community don’t. It’s mostly forum warriors that seem to think so – if you actually go play PvP I rarely hear people complain of OP eles. Moreso its these official forums that you get all this OP calls and hate mongering. I don’t see as much ele hate on reddit for instance.

Cele D/D is fine. I’ve seen warriors and necros with far far more keyboard facerolling combos and mesmers (with skill) that just destroy with no chance to fight back.

PS and if you really think the devs are gonna listen to a thread like this……….you realize there have been 1,000s of these threads on ALL classes? If they listened to these x class is OP thread we’d all be playing kittens with mittens.

Theres still people that think DD cele ele doesnt needs a nerf? :o

What they SHOULD do is make major changes that fixes eles dependence on water/arcana, while also toning down the build overall (Option A). What they will do is just make minor patches to the build and not fix any underlying issues with the class (Option B ).

My suggestions for option B:
- Ring of Fire: keep 3 stacks of burns, reduce duration to 2 seconds, or reduce to 2 stacks for 3-4 seconds. It should make you think twice about crossing it, but shouldn’t be as harmful as it is now.
- Burning fire: might now lasts for 10s. Alternatively, rework this skill so its not another “cantrip trait”
- Blinding ashes: 10s cd, CD is per-target (not global)
- Soothing disruption: regen/vigor duration reduced to 3s
- Signet of Restoration: increase active heal, reduce passive heal

What SHOULD happen (option A):
- All defensive utilities and weapon skills have their CD cut in HALF.
- Evasive arcana – water dodge roll no longer heals, just removes 1 condition aoe
- Elemental attunement – protection duration reduced (maybe in half)
Note: I know the 2nd and 3rd suggestions would be unpopular, but they are offset by having greater access to cleanses, heals, and prot from utility skills like cleansing fire, armor of earth, cleansing water (dagger 5), etc.)
- Fix scepter so its not terrible (see other threads)
- Remove the “no-hit” penalty from RtL. Ele counterplay now comes from interrupting heals/important skills. The mobility is necessary for them.
- Consolidate some of the aura traits within lines, perhaps moving them to tempest even (combine powerful aura with the tempest GM aura trait, put something else in water, or don’t b/c nobody will take it over cleansing water anyway)
- Reduce conjure cast times and cooldowns significantly (cooldown should be 30-40s base), so that they can be used more frequently. This will help with them being so mediocre.

They should really nerf the ele to trash tier like the dhuumfire patch did. Maybe then devs will finally realise the core problem with this profession.

Who am I kidding…

rotten.9753:

They should really nerf the ele to trash tier like the dhuumfire patch did. Maybe then devs will finally realise the core problem with this profession.

Who am I kidding…

Doubtful. Necros are still trying to recover from that.

DnD eles in WvW are average. Not OP but not crap. In PvP i heard its a little different.

BlackBeard.2873:

What they SHOULD do is make major changes that fixes eles dependence on water/arcana, while also toning down the build overall (Option A). What they will do is just make minor patches to the build and not fix any underlying issues with the class (Option B ).

My suggestions for option B:
- Ring of Fire: keep 3 stacks of burns, reduce duration to 2 seconds, or reduce to 2 stacks for 3-4 seconds. It should make you think twice about crossing it, but shouldn’t be as harmful as it is now.
- Burning fire: might now lasts for 10s. Alternatively, rework this skill so its not another “cantrip trait”
- Blinding ashes: 10s cd, CD is per-target (not global)
- Soothing disruption: regen/vigor duration reduced to 3s
- Signet of Restoration: increase active heal, reduce passive heal

What SHOULD happen (option A):
- All defensive utilities and weapon skills have their CD cut in HALF.
- Evasive arcana – water dodge roll no longer heals, just removes 1 condition aoe
- Elemental attunement – protection duration reduced (maybe in half)
Note: I know the 2nd and 3rd suggestions would be unpopular, but they are offset by having greater access to cleanses, heals, and prot from utility skills like cleansing fire, armor of earth, cleansing water (dagger 5), etc.)
- Fix scepter so its not terrible (see other threads)
- Remove the “no-hit” penalty from RtL. Ele counterplay now comes from interrupting heals/important skills. The mobility is necessary for them.
- Consolidate some of the aura traits within lines, perhaps moving them to tempest even (combine powerful aura with the tempest GM aura trait, put something else in water, or don’t b/c nobody will take it over cleansing water anyway)
- Reduce conjure cast times and cooldowns significantly (cooldown should be 30-40s base), so that they can be used more frequently. This will help with them being so mediocre.

If they give some healing to air line and some HP to water line, I promise never to touch D/D again

Honestly, d/d ele’s aren’t hugely scary in offensive power, but they have the highest defensive power of any non-bunker spec WHILE having second tier offense at worst which makes them the problem. Looking at where all the survivability and sustain comes from is in my opinion the way to reduce the pervasiveness of D/D cele.

The fact that 4 ele team just won esl literally makes all arguments of slight shaving, DD ele is fine, and we have to nerf right arguments moot.

Gut the spec and make it completely unviable until you can balance it right.

Many will hate on me for that statement but for the sake of the game it needs to happen. Never in GW2’s life has taking 4 of one profession been viable let alone winning a tournament.

Good day

T raw.4658:

Never in GW2’s life has taking 4 of one profession been viable let alone winning a tournament.

Good day

That is not correct. In times when hambow was strong, people were running even 4 of it and were still able to win.

Anyways, nerfing the class to the point when it’s no longer viable is as bad as it being too strong. I don’t really care what personal issues you have with the spec, but that is not how you balance the game.

T raw.4658:

Gut the spec and make it completely unviable until you can balance it right.

They already did this one time for eles with the dhuumfire patch, and it left the class in the absolute trash-tier. Even rangers felt bad for eles, and the class was SO BAD it was hard to play a pvp game without your own team trashing you or asking you to swap…for over a year.

Link 1
Link 2
Link 3

The thing is, rather than actually reshape some of the core issues plaguing the class, they just reverted all previous nerfs and went right back to square one! To make it worse, they left eles in the dumpster for over a year, and STILL didn’t do anything to properly fix them! What makes you think doing that for another year will end up ANY different?

BlackBeard.2873:

T raw.4658:

Gut the spec and make it completely unviable until you can balance it right.

They already did this one time for eles with the dhuumfire patch, and it left the class in the absolute trash-tier. Even rangers felt bad for eles, and the class was SO BAD it was hard to play a pvp game without your own team trashing you or asking you to swap…for over a year.

Link 1
Link 2
Link 3

The thing is, rather than actually reshape some of the core issues plaguing the class, they just reverted all previous nerfs and went right back to square one! To make it worse, they left eles in the dumpster for over a year, and STILL didn’t do anything to properly fix them! What makes you think doing that for another year will end up ANY different?

They were only in the “trash” tier in regards to PvP. Completely viable in all other aspects of the game.

Its time for that to happen again.

T raw.4658:

BlackBeard.2873:

T raw.4658:

Gut the spec and make it completely unviable until you can balance it right.

They already did this one time for eles with the dhuumfire patch, and it left the class in the absolute trash-tier. Even rangers felt bad for eles, and the class was SO BAD it was hard to play a pvp game without your own team trashing you or asking you to swap…for over a year.

Link 1
Link 2
Link 3

The thing is, rather than actually reshape some of the core issues plaguing the class, they just reverted all previous nerfs and went right back to square one! To make it worse, they left eles in the dumpster for over a year, and STILL didn’t do anything to properly fix them! What makes you think doing that for another year will end up ANY different?

They were only in the “trash” tier in regards to PvP. Completely viable in all other aspects of the game.

Its time for that to happen again.

So you would like thief (what I take to be your main given your post history) to go into the trash-can for an entire game-mode? Perhaps we should completely neuter thief mobility as it has warped pvp metas SINCE THE START OF THE GAME WITHOUT FAIL (obsoleting every other zerker, and being required on every single team, forever). And I am not saying “slightly adjust” to make it compete with another class for some role, but make it strictly worse than every class for all possible roles.

Honestly think about how it would be if thief didn’t have an actual role in pvp, not even the +1/decap/stealth-res role that it so excels in (so take away stealth from thief, and neuter shortbow mobility). That is what your asking…to put it in some perspective.

I am not trying to single you out, but more respond to all the people who say “nerf this class into the ground so that nobody can play it at all!” That is basically saying “destroy the enjoyment of the game for a large group of people because I want my own kit to be stronger!” The last time they did that, a lot of people straight-up quit the game altogether because they could no longer enjoy it viably, and after all that they STILL hadn’t done anything to adjust how the class functions effectively.

Krysard.1364:

Mightybird.6034:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

I’m pretty sure that even most of the Elementalist community agrees….

Naw. I don’t think it needs a nerf and I’d say most in the real pvp community don’t. It’s mostly forum warriors that seem to think so – if you actually go play PvP I rarely hear people complain of OP eles. Moreso its these official forums that you get all this OP calls and hate mongering. I don’t see as much ele hate on reddit for instance.

Cele D/D is fine. I’ve seen warriors and necros with far far more keyboard facerolling combos and mesmers (with skill) that just destroy with no chance to fight back.

PS and if you really think the devs are gonna listen to a thread like this……….you realize there have been 1,000s of these threads on ALL classes? If they listened to these x class is OP thread we’d all be playing kittens with mittens.

Theres still people that think DD cele ele doesnt needs a nerf? :o

Yeah. For all the reasons he stated. Most people on the ground, in game, have no real trouble with ele’s of any kind. Cele ele’s aren’t much better than a bunker ele.

Cele is literally the only spec for ele’s that can marginally manage to survive the burst meta and put out mediocre damage.

That’s the sum of the cele ele. Skilled players can make it shine, but facing equally skilled opponents, the cele ele falls short.

Most players have committed to something stat wise that is superior than cele stats (which commit to nothing and have a less than standard boost to everything).

Unless it’s an extreme bunker spec (and honestly a good bunker will simply outlast everything, much more mediocre damage dished out by a cele spec) or a less skilled player, that ele won’t pull ahead.

Most if not every other class can go a bursty or glass spec with less risk than the ele.

The reason you don’t see much variety in ele specs is because most every other spec that isn’t defense heavy will result in death in a glass meta.

The DD ele isn’t the problem.

BlackBeard.2873:

T raw.4658:

BlackBeard.2873:

T raw.4658:

Gut the spec and make it completely unviable until you can balance it right.

They already did this one time for eles with the dhuumfire patch, and it left the class in the absolute trash-tier. Even rangers felt bad for eles, and the class was SO BAD it was hard to play a pvp game without your own team trashing you or asking you to swap…for over a year.

Link 1
Link 2
Link 3

The thing is, rather than actually reshape some of the core issues plaguing the class, they just reverted all previous nerfs and went right back to square one! To make it worse, they left eles in the dumpster for over a year, and STILL didn’t do anything to properly fix them! What makes you think doing that for another year will end up ANY different?

They were only in the “trash” tier in regards to PvP. Completely viable in all other aspects of the game.

Its time for that to happen again.

So you would like thief (what I take to be your main given your post history) to go into the trash-can for an entire game-mode? Perhaps we should completely neuter thief mobility as it has warped pvp metas SINCE THE START OF THE GAME WITHOUT FAIL (obsoleting every other zerker, and being required on every single team, forever). And I am not saying “slightly adjust” to make it compete with another class for some role, but make it strictly worse than every class for all possible roles.

Honestly think about how it would be if thief didn’t have an actual role in pvp, not even the +1/decap/stealth-res role that it so excels in (so take away stealth from thief, and neuter shortbow mobility). That is what your asking…to put it in some perspective.

I am not trying to single you out, but more respond to all the people who say “nerf this class into the ground so that nobody can play it at all!” That is basically saying “destroy the enjoyment of the game for a large group of people because I want my own kit to be stronger!” The last time they did that, a lot of people straight-up quit the game altogether because they could no longer enjoy it viably, and after all that they STILL hadn’t done anything to adjust how the class functions effectively.

I play lots of classes

If teams were winning in PvP with 4 thieves on a team yes I’d say neuter them to uselessness until you can figure it out.

Fortunately for thieves more than 1 on a team is pretty much auto lose. Heck I think everyone in this forum will agree that unless your 1 thief is extremely good you’re better off with something else…..like another ele

So yes for the sake of balance I’m willing to shelve my Ele for awhile until this kitten can be figured out. If you were interested in balance as well you’d ask for the same thing.

p.s. The thief hate is strong within you. I think you need to expunge it from your system before talking about balance.

T raw.4658:

If teams were winning in PvP with 4 thieves on a team yes I’d say neuter them to uselessness until you can figure it out.

T raw.4658:

So yes for the sake of balance I’m willing to shelve my Ele for awhile until this kitten can be figured out. If you were interested in balance as well you’d ask for the same thing.

I’m pretty sure that’s not how you balance things.

CETheLucid.3964:

T raw.4658:

If teams were winning in PvP with 4 thieves on a team yes I’d say neuter them to uselessness until you can figure it out.

T raw.4658:

So yes for the sake of balance I’m willing to shelve my Ele for awhile until this kitten can be figured out. If you were interested in balance as well you’d ask for the same thing.

I’m pretty sure that’s not how you balance things.

Reading your previous post in this thread I’m gonna have to say your ideas of balance are way off.

Like I said I’d gut any class for the sake of balance. Anet has been on record saying when you start taking 2 of a class on a team we have to look into it….we are seeing 4-5 now. The nerf needs to be harder than any nerf we’ve seen so far. Turret engies gonna be saying “kitten thats a nerf”

T raw.4658:

Reading your previous post in this thread I’m gonna have to say your ideas of balance are way off.

I didn’t even present an idea so much as agree with another poster that D/D ele doesn’t need to be nerfed.

I expounded on that with an explanation regarding cele ele’s and why they seem a favored spec for ele’s.

A problem well stated is a problem half-solved.
- Charles Kettering

I don’t have a solution for it, but I can say with confidence that nerfing D/D ele isn’t the answer to this problem.

T raw.4658:

Like I said I’d gut any class for the sake of balance.

Yeah, I stopped there. I’m all for balance, but what you’re suggesting isn’t balance. You can keep saying that all you’d like.

If nothing else, at least you’re letting us all know your expertise in this regard. It’s been noted.

CETheLucid.3964:

T raw.4658:

Reading your previous post in this thread I’m gonna have to say your ideas of balance are way off.

D/D ele doesn’t need to be nerfed

I rest my case.

T raw.4658:

CETheLucid.3964:

T raw.4658:

Reading your previous post in this thread I’m gonna have to say your ideas of balance are way off.

D/D ele doesn’t need to be nerfed

I rest my case.

I mean after you so elaborately tore down my arguments! I sure hope the judge doesn’t throw me in jail!

But yeah, you’re still full of crap.

CETheLucid.3964:

T raw.4658:

CETheLucid.3964:

T raw.4658:

Reading your previous post in this thread I’m gonna have to say your ideas of balance are way off.

D/D ele doesn’t need to be nerfed

I rest my case.

I mean after you so elaborately tore down my arguments! I sure hope the judge doesn’t throw me in jail!

But yeah, you’re still full of crap.

You best edit that post.

Having only played D/D ele for a very short time (less than a week) in roaming solo/party i have come to the conclusion that D/D is very strong when played with alot of patience and care when switching attunements and once you get certain rotations down to an instinctual level it’s very fun to play.

I’m intrested to see where this discussion goes in terms of valid nerfs and not NERF IT PLOX I R BADZ so i can better see where it’s strengths lie, so far the general consesus seems to be either burning stacks or might stacks and thankfully not both at the same time as removing/nerfing both would render Ele useless.

Glad to finally find a proffesion section not filled up totally with whiney crap.

Can’t wait to play D/D ele on HoTs WvW maps.

Nerfing Ele alone will not make anything better. There are a few things which are completely out of control. Burn Damage across the board is way too high and imho one of the problems combined with the high sustain D/D Ele has, but Guardian has the same problems, Medi Guards are ridiculous strong right now because of the problem with burning. Not to mention Mesmers with their cancer P/U specs, these guys have more stealth than thiefes kittenmit. Arenanet has to wake up and balance the game as a whole and not like it is now where each class designer buffs his personal class of choice to oblivion.

PlasticHippo.8934:

specing into arcane for elemental attunement (baseline) alone gives you near perma protection, and protection gives more armor rating than a warriors heavy armor. this post about the nerfs to the meta d/d fire build which takes cantrips to include mist form (which is an invulnerability.) a lot of other classes count on vamp runes to survive, you could too. personally I like to play a cele D/F build similar to the meta, only take air instead of fire, arcane shield, arcane wave, and lightning flash. the mobility alone makes me highly survivable with the passive 25% speed boost + lightning flash, then theres obsidian flesh (4 sec invuln that can be used while attacking and is not a cantrip.) and yet somehow the build is still OP.

as a main ele, I support ele sustain nerfs (as long as it comes from the water trait line.) the insane sustain from soothing mists gives way too much healing to make it required to take in any build ele’s can think up, nerfing the water trait line would help open the door to make more builds viable. there is a lot buffs I would love to see to scepter and some utility skills, but nerfing soothing mist is the first step to open the door to new builds.

- Perma protection? 5 secs of protection is not perma protection, and in combat unless you are going to blast fields you are doing pressure with fire/air. Earth and water are mostly used when being focused because they lack damage. So if you are rotating attunements (and thats how eles are played) even in a ideal situation you wont be seeing protection in less than 20+ secs.

- And “Armor is worse” than protection is a flawed thinking: 1) heavy armor cant be affected while boons can be stripped and corrupted. 2) Nothinkittenes having heavy armor & protection at the same time

- Mist form is used mostly to stomping or defending in WvW because you know, you cant use skills while you are on it. I have a warrior and I guarantee that they dont have those problems.

- Mobility is nice, but if you are escaping you aren’t capturing or defending in PvP, and those things can be far more important than being killed 1 or 2 times. Dont get me wrong, mobility IS strong, but can never be op by itself.

Spirit rangers stacked twice during condi meta, cried about, then nerfed to oblivion within a month
dhuumfire necros , cried about , then nerfed because of burning in 2 months due to stacking with spirit rangers
Warriors nerfed because shout warriors used 2x a team , cried about, then nerfed into the ground.

—

Ele’s , 2x/3x even 4x (yesterday’s ESL had 2 4 ele teams and they did well with a thief) stacked a team right now , everyone knows how OP they are right now as indicated by top tier players (even phantaram himself knows how strong d/d ele cele is right now) , countless posts, stacking teams with them, the vamp mist form bug right now , etc etc etc etc… To Anet: Working as intended!

I have more trouble fighting Dire Guardians then Celes right now. Applying tons of burning and are extremely tanky, they’re my biggest annoyance right now in PvP. Unless you play a necro in which case you just toss the burn stacks right back at them, they’ll kill you before you even dent them.

Problem with D/D is that we do sustained damage with might, thus we need sustained healing and nothing is better then Celestial right now. If we go towards being tanky, we are tanky at the cost of almost all our damage. and if we go glass cannon, we get bursted in mere seconds.

That’s where might stacking becomes a problem. Celestial Ele is absolutely useless without Hoelbrak or Strength runes because that’s where all the damage comes from in Celestial Eles. Add on the fact that we stack might reliably, and that’s why people are complaining so much; slightly tanky and deals good sustain damage.

Once you remove Celestial Amulet from PvP, Eles will either disappear from PvP or they’ll all become bunker builds running Earth/Water/Arcane and PVTs to hold points. and even then, other classes like the Guardian or Necro would make a much better bunker anyways.

Mizu.4508:

I have more trouble fighting Dire Guardians then Celes right now. Applying tons of burning and are extremely tanky, they’re my biggest annoyance right now in PvP.

I dont think you are telling the truth here…..

• Blinding trashes – skilles trait for major defense or even passive hardcounter to a lot of specs

• 1x less burn stack on the ring

• healing signet not procing on autos when atacking air behind a pillar

We should create a separate topic to focus on an actual discussion around D/D ele, or this nightmare may never end. Some thoughts we should consider before:

• Nerfing burning damage and celestial amulet (sPvP-related) won’t do any good. There’s a new class incoming, and several elite specs. The OP issue lies in the D/D composition, plus our traits which strengthen it too much.
• There should be a consensus for what is broken weapon-wise: offhand dagger, or mainhand dagger? We know that having both in hands makes eles OP for many situations, and it’s difficult to counter.
• We should provide info on what D/D should actually be able to do, and what skills or traits are changing its purpose unintentionally. We should not be able to overwhelm in every single aspect: survivability, control, and damage (direct + condition).
• We should also analyze 1v1 against most common builds from other classes.
• We should take into account Revenant + Mallyx legend and its ability to be severly boon-hate, paired with some other potential class we could be pwned for good, unless we drop a spec for Earth.

Valento.9852:

• Nerfing burning damage and celestial amulet (sPvP-related) won’t do any good. There’s a new class incoming, and several elite specs. The OP issue lies in the D/D composition, plus our traits which strengthen it too much.

What I read: Don’t nerf burning and celestial stats for other classes, just nerf DD ele. What if burning damage and the cele amulet are a problem?

Valento.9852:

• There should be a consensus for what is broken weapon-wise: offhand dagger, or mainhand dagger? We know that having both in hands makes eles OP for many situations, and it’s difficult to counter.

First we’d have to agree that daggers for ele are broken. We don’t. They’re not.

Valento.9852:

We should not be able to overwhelm in every single aspect: survivability, control, and damage (direct + condition).

We agree on this much, and I can honestly tell you DD does not reign supreme in all of these aspects.

Valento.9852:

• We should also analyze 1v1 against most common builds from other classes.

1v1 doesn’t mean much in regards to class balance.

Valento.9852:

• We should take into account Revenant + Mallyx legend and its ability to be severly boon-hate, paired with some other potential class we could be pwned for good, unless we drop a spec for Earth.

Boon hate is a hard counter for ele, yes. Necro’s are getting more and we’re getting a new class that can spam it.

But DD needs a nerf, right?

CETheLucid.3964:

Valento.9852:

• Nerfing burning damage and celestial amulet (sPvP-related) won’t do any good. There’s a new class incoming, and several elite specs. The OP issue lies in the D/D composition, plus our traits which strengthen it too much.

What I read: Don’t nerf burning and celestial stats for other classes, just nerf DD ele. What if burning damage and the cele amulet are a problem?

Valento.9852:

• There should be a consensus for what is broken weapon-wise: offhand dagger, or mainhand dagger? We know that having both in hands makes eles OP for many situations, and it’s difficult to counter.

First we’d have to agree that daggers for ele are broken. We don’t. They’re not.

Valento.9852:

We should not be able to overwhelm in every single aspect: survivability, control, and damage (direct + condition).

We agree on this much, and I can honestly tell you DD does not reign supreme in all of these aspects.

Valento.9852:

• We should also analyze 1v1 against most common builds from other classes.

1v1 doesn’t mean much in regards to class balance.

Valento.9852:

• We should take into account Revenant + Mallyx legend and its ability to be severly boon-hate, paired with some other potential class we could be pwned for good, unless we drop a spec for Earth.

Boon hate is a hard counter for ele, yes. Necro’s are getting more and we’re getting a new class that can spam it.

But DD needs a nerf, right?

Fighting tooth and nail to keep dat OPness going.

FYI Your class is gonna get gutted unless you pony up and start throwing out some good ideas to strike a real balance.

I didn’t meant to sound harsh. I too defend eles, but if there’s an issue with D/D we should humbly try and check if it’s real or not…

Valento.9852:

I didn’t meant to sound harsh. I too defend eles, but if there’s an issue with D/D we should humbly try and check if it’s real or not…

I didn’t find you harsh. You and I do not agree mind you, but I can appreciate your thoughts on the matter and I respect your humility to that end.

T raw.4658:

FYI Your class is gonna get gutted unless you pony up and start throwing out some good ideas to strike a real balance.

Hahahaha, thinking that player opinion on the ele forums has any effect on what the devs do with eles. That inherently assumes they even READ these forums. Good joke.

T raw.4658:

Mizu.4508:

I have more trouble fighting Dire Guardians then Celes right now. Applying tons of burning and are extremely tanky, they’re my biggest annoyance right now in PvP.

I dont think you are telling the truth here…..

Shows how much I PvP – I thought Dire Amulet existed lmao. Seriously though, 3 Burn Guardians on one team all running torches is insane if you haven’t run into it yet. No idea what amulet they were running since they were hard to kill. Might have been Rabid.

Honestly I don’t think Anet is going to make any changes to D/D Celes until HoT since they seem to be really focused on its release over everything else right now.