Guild Wars 2

Today I ran only into bleed specced D/D thieves spamming nr3. What happened to backstabbers, huh? They were fun and quite easy to counter.
It´s insanely hard to try to land your combos when they just spam 3 and evade at the same time. No fire grab hits, no earthquake, no updraft.

Any tips how to counter?

I tried to stun and get back with burning speed etc. But it just was not enough, they just stealth and open up from there and jump twice over you before you can even see them.

I´m running 0/10/10/20/30 build. Maybe just lose evasive arcana and invest to 30 water to get more condi removal..

edit: oh and it seems that lately more and more ppl are running condi specs. You noticed anything like that? Or do I just run into them

Well first off, the hands down most effective counter to any melee thief I have found is shocking aura. This will stun them for 1 sec when they death blossom you and you can use updraft on earthquake at that point to knock them down, then just DPS them with fire and put up more CC like frost aura.

Now if you don’t have shocking aura…

Death blossom evades, but they will run out of initiative fast doing so many of them. I would say just go on the defensive until they burn their initiative down. What I normally do would be to swap to earth for the prot buff, trigger my heal (ether renewal) that will basically kill any conditions they put on me, then earthquake them once their initiative is gone.

But I mean, you have to play it by ear…if they are doing WAY too much damage to you, you will have to switch to water to heal more. You may even have to RTL away and recover. The thing with D/D ele is that there is no set strategy…everything will differ based on situational variables like how much health you have, how much damage he is doing, is his damage mainly condition or direct, etc. etc.

I guess the only real important thing is to realize death blossom’s weakness, which is its high initiative cost. It costs 5 initiative base…so without any traits, a thief can only do two before having to wait. Now I’m sure there are ways to trait and build to mitigate this…but the fact remains that they cannot consistently keep up a death blossom spam. Just outlast them, they will spend their initiative and utilities, and then be on the run.

kismet.5347:

Today I ran only into bleed specced D/D thieves spamming nr3. What happened to backstabbers, huh? They were fun and quite easy to counter.
It´s insanely hard to try to land your combos when they just spam 3 and evade at the same time. No fire grab hits, no earthquake, no updraft.

Any tips how to counter?

I tried to stun and get back with burning speed etc. But it just was not enough, they just stealth and open up from there and jump twice over you before you can even see them.

I´m running 0/10/10/20/30 build. Maybe just lose evasive arcana and invest to 30 water to get more condi removal..

edit: oh and it seems that lately more and more ppl are running condi specs. You noticed anything like that? Or do I just run into them

Dodge and use ring of earth to cripple and bleed them, use dragon’s breath, also why don’t use dodge in fire with evasiva arcana?, if you feel of not being able to hit them consistently just burn them down.

Furthermore I presume you’re using cleansing wave trait, in that case you’ve got 3 condition removal ( water dodge) within short CD reach, so wait for full stack of bleed before dodging or switch to water.

Also are you using sigil of superior energy and renewing stamin trait( assuming you’re using knight amulet+eagle runes)?

kismet.5347:

Today I ran only into bleed specced D/D thieves spamming nr3. What happened to backstabbers, huh? They were fun and quite easy to counter.
It´s insanely hard to try to land your combos when they just spam 3 and evade at the same time. No fire grab hits, no earthquake, no updraft.

Any tips how to counter?

I tried to stun and get back with burning speed etc. But it just was not enough, they just stealth and open up from there and jump twice over you before you can even see them.

I´m running 0/10/10/20/30 build. Maybe just lose evasive arcana and invest to 30 water to get more condi removal..

edit: oh and it seems that lately more and more ppl are running condi specs. You noticed anything like that? Or do I just run into them

After the nerf on condition removals, yes, the condition based builds have become very problematic , more and more people are making use of these builds

Go make a d/d thief and learn the sounds of the different abilities. Once you get a good feel you can anticaipate what sort of chain spam they are going into and either CC or evade until they blow their wad and then lay down the smack down.

Never had a problem with a thief spamming 3, if they do that they’ll run out of initiative.

Mist form is great vs. thiefs. They start to unload on you, pop mist form. Swift to lightning when you get out. Updraft, fire combo, earth combo, water if you need to heal etc. As one of the other people said there’s no real set combo, you need to adjust as needed. Having a base health set of 16k-17k will really help you against thieves though.

/agree Kuthos

Mist form is the answer, also try a 0/10/0/30/30 build; so much condition removal it isn’t even funny. Also, a death blossom spammer is probably actually a noob. A smarter thief would Steal, CnD and Backstab you either until death or you were 50%or less and then heartseeker you to death without ever using death blossom.

The build above is what I run now (previously 0/0/10/30/30) and I haven’t worried about thieves at all. One swap to water and a dodge or cleansing wave and all conditions are usually gone. Then don’t fall in love with water, pop your aura (#4) and get out of water so it can reset. (Important)

For anyone getting dodged by players on your updrafts; one of the easiest ways to ensure that a person (any class) isn’t ready to evade your RTL/Updraft combo is to target them and run directly away from them. They will be occupied with giving chase thinking you are running away. Then hit RTL and updraft. You can fix the camera angle after they are knocked down (because you will rtl toward the bottom of your screen) and go into your normal attack sequence. It’s a little wierd because you can’t see where you are going or see your target, but you should still hit them.

Thanks for the great answers guys!
To clarify I´ve played ele since bwe1 and have over 700 games with ele atm.

Maybe this thief just was better than me or lucky to dodge and evade all, because I couldn´t touch him.
It could also be that I´ve been messing around with new builds and I´ve mainly used S/D.
But nevertheless I know the tricks and skills with ele like my dirty pockets and still I didn´t have a chance. He stealthed to wait for his bleeds to tick and his initiative to return AND for me to use my condi removals. And after that it was nr3 all over again

And I´ve played a thief enough to know the routine. That´s why I asked if you´ve got any new ideas because I´m out of any to be able to reset the match with stealth is such a huge thing that good players will eat you alive. Or at least me

Maybe my biggest change to my normal build was to let go of cleansing water, the XI trait in water and got eaten by condis. Won´t make that mistake again doh.

Having played extensively with all weapons in pvp I still think D/D has the negative side of being in melee. Our big hitters fire grab, churning earth and burning speed are really hard to hit if your set up gets mitigated.
When at the same time the other melee just autoattacks or uses his/hers big hitters and usually hits.

So I think it´s back to S/D for me

Just out of curiosity, why use evasive arcana with D/D? You only have a fire field, i know everyone praises up and down about that skill, but to me its only effective if you use Staff.

D / D is one of the best, if not the best dueling class in the game. You have to have the right build for it though and the right equipment.

If you got rid of condition removal, then yeah that would explain why you died heh. I could never pvp without at least 10 points into water. It’s absolutely required imo.

D/D doesn’t have the burst of a thief / warrior, but they dont have your ability to sustain either. Nor do they have your wide array of knockdowns, heals, etc.

Just saw you already had 20 in water, I’m not sure what the problem is. He stacks bleeds on you, you switch to water and all that damage is instantly gone. It sounds like you need more hitpoints / defense to begin with.

If a thief resets the fight, the biggest mistake people make is standing around waiting for the thief to open back up on you. Drop some aoes if you want to search for them, but get the heck out of there. Dont stand around waiting for him to heal back up.

Weapon X.5163:

Just out of curiosity, why use evasive arcana with D/D? You only have a fire field, i know everyone praises up and down about that skill, but to me its only effective if you use Staff.

To me it´s mainly for the shorter attunement recharge to have 30 in arcana. But I´ve tried some new builds which rely on might stacking to get the damage up and there it really shines. Not to forget the heals in water.

[quote=655251;Kuthos.9623:I’m not sure what the problem is.
If a thief resets the fight, the biggest mistake people make is standing around waiting for the thief to open back up on you. Drop some aoes if you want to search for them, but get the heck out of there. Dont stand around waiting for him to heal back up. [/quote]

The problem is I want to WIN

Arheundel.6451:

After the nerf on condition removals,

What nerf?

If you scare them off to go heal, then you win.

If you stand around waiting for him to open up on you again. You lose.

I’m not saying run as soon as a thief vanishes, but you need to be actively moving and dropping aoes. Or make sure you get yourself out of combat as well to heal up while looking for the thief.

If by some miracle they do happen to fix the render bug for thieves, then they will be MUCH less harder to chase down. As it is now though it’s kind of a nightmare because you have to spam tab target to even target them most of the time, let alone see which way they stealthed.

@Weapon X – evasive arcana does the same thing with D/D that it does with a staff or any other weapon.

For example, in three moves I can heal myself three (technically four) times. One, swap to water (healing ripple heals you and nearby allies) and regen starts. Two, cast cleansing wave (heal and condition removal), Three, dodge one time (evasive arcana grants a second cleansing wave).

In four moves, I can add a fourth heal by using cone of cold. Doesn’t matter if I target something or not.

That’s a lot of healing in seconds.

Bleeds.4029:

@Weapon X – evasive arcana does the same thing with D/D that it does with a staff or any other weapon.

For example, in three moves I can heal myself three (technically four) times. One, swap to water (healing ripple heals you and nearby allies) and regen starts. Two, cast cleansing wave (heal and condition removal), Three, dodge one time (evasive arcana grants a second cleansing wave).

In four moves, I can add a fourth heal by using cone of cold. Doesn’t matter if I target something or not.

That’s a lot of healing in seconds.

Umm….ok. The OP is using D/D. So tell me how he would drop a water field again?
Hinse my question.

If he drops the 10 points from Arcana he loses 1 possible 2 might blast finishers while in fire and 1 1/4 second attune C/D. Thats it, unless he is specing into crit for the 25 point trait (Arcane Presision)….which i doubt.

Those 10 points would be better spent in water for cond. removal or earth for some type of passive damage redux. Or start using staff.

I’m tired of bads that cant read giving advise.

Weapon X.5163:

Bleeds.4029:

@Weapon X – evasive arcana does the same thing with D/D that it does with a staff or any other weapon.

For example, in three moves I can heal myself three (technically four) times. One, swap to water (healing ripple heals you and nearby allies) and regen starts. Two, cast cleansing wave (heal and condition removal), Three, dodge one time (evasive arcana grants a second cleansing wave).

In four moves, I can add a fourth heal by using cone of cold. Doesn’t matter if I target something or not.

That’s a lot of healing in seconds.

Umm….ok. The OP is using D/D. So tell me how he would drop a water field again?
Hinse my question.

If he drops the 10 points from Arcana he loses 1 possible 2 might blast finishers while in fire and 1 1/4 second attune C/D. Thats it, unless he is specing into crit for the 25 point trait (Arcane Presision)….which i doubt.

Those 10 points would be better spent in water for cond. removal or earth for some type of passive damage redux. Or start using staff.

I’m tired of bads that cant read giving advise.

Perhaps you should try to read yourself before you start bashing people.

I’m not sure if you just don’t understand how Evasive Arcana works or not, but Bleeds explicitly said how he can heal 4x in 4 moves in his post. 1. Swapping to Water Attunement heals you once via Healing Ripple (15 pts in Water Tree), 2. using Cleansing Wave (D/D Skill 5), 3. dodge in Water Attunement to heal (Evasive Arcana in Water Attunement provides a Cleansing Wave), and 4. use Cone of Cold (D/D Skill 2).

I don’t see anywhere in his post that he mentions using a water field or need one for that matter. Two of those heals come from Cleansing Wave (one from D/D 5 and the other from dodging) and those each heal and remove a condition. Perhaps you were confused with his wording about EA’s effectiveness with D/D compared to other weapon sets? If so, then yes, you are right in that it’s not as effective for Healing using a staff, but it still have a lot of other merits.

As to why use EA with D/D? Well, you can easily stack 16-25 stacks of might if you use Boon Duration runes, 30 in Arcane Tree, and Sigil of Battle. D/D still has access to two fire fields and two blast finishers (3 if u use Arcane Wave – which is pretty popular with D/D builds). If you go for a tanky build (like 0/10/0/30/30 with PVT+Cleric gear), you can easily make up for the loss of power/CD with those might stacks (they each last 34 secs with Boon Duration), and yet still maintain incredible survivability. You can easily get up to 18-20 stacks within your first rotation if you use 1 dodge, Arcane Wave, Earthquake, and Churning Earth. I usually swap into Earth mid dodge after casting Ring of Fire to get the Churning Earth blast finisher to get both the might stacks as well as crippling my targets, then continue the blast chain with AW, EQ, and CE (yes you can get all of this off with just the duration of one Ring o Fire – hell you can even fit in a Ring of Earth in there too). You can maintain perma-Vigor pretty easily with Arcane Trait VI and Water Trait III, so it’s not like you’re wasting precious endurance either.

On top of that, evades in Earth provides a useful cripple, evades in Lightning provides a blind (nice for stomping, for example, considering D/D don’t have any), and evades in Water heals (~2K with 600-700 Healing Power) and removes a condition. I’ll say that’s pretty kitten useful.

Simple answer get some range. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death_Blossom 130 range you can avoid the attack. Let them burn init catching you. If your D/D the bleed is an easy cleanse. You wont win every time but you can always run regroup.

Weapon X.5163:

Just out of curiosity, why use evasive arcana with D/D? You only have a fire field, i know everyone praises up and down about that skill, but to me its only effective if you use Staff.

EA on D/D is for the might and the extra cleanse/ heal in water its as simple as this. Besides that with vigor from cantrips you basically have a blind, a burst, a tick, and a heal just from evading. I am sorry to say but using it only when you have a field is a little simple minded. No matter the weapon set EA works well with it on ele.

We can critique all day but if it works it works. Picking on someone for doing well with a build your not running makes no sense imho. Whatever you run realize that it may work for you but not for others. By no means does that mean that your’e running the superior build. If that were the case the last time I took on a supply point solo and won I could have declared that my build was the best for soling multiple vets. I don’t even think that but I know it works.

@Weapon X – I think we got off track bro-migo! I assure you, what I said I can do works. I do it every day in WvW. I try to run only D/D except when the guild needs me in staff or Scepter/focus.

You asked why use evasive arcana, I told you why I use it.

Respec 0/10/0/30/30, use D/D and see for yourself how Evasive Arcana works, I think you’ll like it.

Just out of curiosity, why use evasive arcana with D/D? You only have a fire field, i know everyone praises up and down about that skill, but to me its only effective if you use Staff.

I use it for added damage (I can dodge roll A LOT with rune of superior energy), and most importantly, to heal/clear with a cleansing wave dodge roll. It’s added healing power basically.

Arheundel.6451:

After the nerf on condition removals,

What nerf?

I was thinking the same thing actually

Weapon X.5163:

Umm….ok. The OP is using D/D. So tell me how he would drop a water field again?
Hinse my question.
…
I’m tired of bads that cant read giving advise.

You don’t need a water field to get healing from evasive arcana…

irony?