Guild Wars 2

This trait completely counters certain builds. It is ridiculous that all you have to do is use one trait and another player is completely rendered useless.

I understand people will come back saying “don’t play full condi specs”, L2P, Etc. However, I think it is bad design for a single trait to completely make another player completely ineffective.

Thoughts?

How do you think it could be changed?

Yes it’s terrible design, but then again so are the entirety of two of our five trait trees.

Oh wait, pardon me, three out of six of our trait trees.

I thought DS being OP was a meme the pvp forum created when condi necro/ranger/warrior was a thing.

I think it’s healthy for the game that something counters condi builds.

Plus, it’s not entirely passive. The Ele still has to stay over 90%.

Koviko.3248:

I think it’s healthy for the game that something counters condi builds.

Something already DOES counter condi builds. Team play and aoe condi remover. Being completely invuln to condis completely rules out the option for a condi spec to go 1v1 an outer node. It isn’t like Eles don’t have a tun of condi remover on short CD’s.

Light Of The Abyss.5927:

Something already DOES counter condi builds. Team play

Team play also counters Diamond Skin. A power class damages the Ele to 90%, and then its your turn.

Light Of The Abyss.5927:

Being completely invuln to condis completely rules out the option for a condi spec to go 1v1 an outer node. It isn’t like Eles don’t have a tun of condi remover on short CD’s.

So in your opinion, you should be able to 1v1 every class no matter what?

And honestly, it’s a L2P issue. Just like you don’t load all your burst into a guard while they are blocking, you don’t load all your condis into an Ele while they are at full HP.

Yeah DS really isn’t over powered at all. It’s totally fine for a build to counter other builds man….and DS is sorta essential with earth/air/tempest because you have way less condi clear without the water trait line. Just don’t go plague form in a full health ele on 1v1, it really not that hard to get an ele under 90% HP….now if it were something like invuln to condition above 50% HP that would totally be overpowered, but its not….there’s nothing wrong with having active defenses against full condi builds

I would completely agree with you if this were a 1v1 game.

But it’s not – It’s a team game, and team based play is important. Ok, so you’re right it completely stops the option of a condi 1v1 for the outer base. But so what? A bunker also stops a 1v1 for outer base. You’ll have to change tactics in both scenario’s, and rely on your team mates in both.

If you can’t communicate with your team, or rely on your team (even in solo que) you’ve lost already. So it makes no difference.

Thieves being in the game counter every single marauder or zerker build besides Guardians. Some things counter things. Deal with it.

I see that people’s opinion on the Diamond Skin changed when they started to use it in their builds.

There was an idea about it to, “Remove a condition when applying Protection to yourself”

There could also be a Anti-Boon stripping mechanic above 90% health.

Without DS, the Tempest build would be a joke in PvP. Right now most people would rate it at below average, only higher than Berserker.

If you can’t even break through 10% of a Tempest, it’s really your issue. Even on my condi Reaper, I could do it easily.

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Thieves being in the game counter every single marauder or zerker build besides Guardians. Some things counter things. Deal with it.

The difference is that if the player on a zerker build can beat a thief if he’s playing way better, can’t say that about diamond skin.

Sunshine.5014:

Without DS, the Tempest build would be a joke in PvP. Right now most people would rate it at below average, only higher than Berserker.

If you can’t even break through 10% of a Tempest, it’s really your issue. Even on my condi Reaper, I could do it easily.

Then the ele is playing badly. If you cannot stay over 90% hp as a DS ele against a condi build, it’s entierly your fault. See, how can this go both ways?

Laraley.7695:

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Thieves being in the game counter every single marauder or zerker build besides Guardians. Some things counter things. Deal with it.

The difference is that if the player on a zerker build can beat a thief if he’s playing way better, can’t say that about diamond skin.

You mean you can’t even do 1600 power damage before doing your condi burst?
Well then you are as bad at build design as someone that chooses no condi removal or stun breaks and complains stuns and condis are broken skills.
Choosing to do power damage skills first followed by condi burst is your “playing way better” in this case.

Laraley.7695:

Sunshine.5014:

Without DS, the Tempest build would be a joke in PvP. Right now most people would rate it at below average, only higher than Berserker.

If you can’t even break through 10% of a Tempest, it’s really your issue. Even on my condi Reaper, I could do it easily.

Then the ele is playing badly. If you cannot stay over 90% hp as a DS ele against a condi build, it’s entierly your fault. See, how can this go both ways?

Because the skilled player wins in that case, that is how PvP games should be.

So condi builds can own everyone in a 1v1, but get rendered useless in a teamfight.

Diamond skin counters pure condi builds in a 1v1, but is rendered useless in a 1v1.

Condis are in an extremely stupid place at the moment. They are way too strong, and cleanse is way to frequent. Condis are basically a way to burst while having high survival, but with the caveat of being completely hard-countered by builds with uber amounts of cleanse. Too many condis…too much cleanse…too much power creep.

What should be done:
- Condi application rate should be WAY reduced, especially from random procs.
- Condi cleanse should also be WAY reduced, so no build can completely just cleanse all the time.
- Diamond skin should be made into something strong but active, such that there is more active play for both players.

I like DS this way. Ele has lots of potentially powerful, but situational skills. You must change your build considering what you’re up against. Diamond skin against full on condi, stone heart against thieves. Ele also has lots of acces to projectile destruction/reflection. So basically, eles van hard counter Necro, Engi, Ranger, Thief, Dragonhunter and more? No, not really.

Arutha.9874:

Laraley.7695:

Sunshine.5014:

Without DS, the Tempest build would be a joke in PvP. Right now most people would rate it at below average, only higher than Berserker.

If you can’t even break through 10% of a Tempest, it’s really your issue. Even on my condi Reaper, I could do it easily.

Then the ele is playing badly. If you cannot stay over 90% hp as a DS ele against a condi build, it’s entierly your fault. See, how can this go both ways?

Because the skilled player wins in that case, that is how PvP games should be.

If you call skill equiping a certain trait, sure.

Arutha.9874:

Laraley.7695:

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Thieves being in the game counter every single marauder or zerker build besides Guardians. Some things counter things. Deal with it.

The difference is that if the player on a zerker build can beat a thief if he’s playing way better, can’t say that about diamond skin.

You mean you can’t even do 1600 power damage before doing your condi burst?
Well then you are as bad at build design as someone that chooses no condi removal or stun breaks and complains stuns and condis are broken skills.
Choosing to do power damage skills first followed by condi burst is your “playing way better” in this case.

You mean you can’t outheal 1.6K dmg before someone applies conditions on you?

Laraley.7695:

Arutha.9874:

Laraley.7695:

Sunshine.5014:

Without DS, the Tempest build would be a joke in PvP. Right now most people would rate it at below average, only higher than Berserker.

If you can’t even break through 10% of a Tempest, it’s really your issue. Even on my condi Reaper, I could do it easily.

Then the ele is playing badly. If you cannot stay over 90% hp as a DS ele against a condi build, it’s entierly your fault. See, how can this go both ways?

Because the skilled player wins in that case, that is how PvP games should be.

If you call skill equiping a certain trait, sure.

No you say that a skilled Ele can stay over 90% health, and other say a skilled opponent can break through the top 10% of the health before burst. That means the more skilled one wins the fight. Equipping DS and standing still won’t win you the fight as you yourself stated “If you cannot stay over 90% hp as a DS ele against a condi build, it’s entierly your fault”

Arutha.9874:

Laraley.7695:

Arutha.9874:

Laraley.7695:

Sunshine.5014:

Without DS, the Tempest build would be a joke in PvP. Right now most people would rate it at below average, only higher than Berserker.

If you can’t even break through 10% of a Tempest, it’s really your issue. Even on my condi Reaper, I could do it easily.

Then the ele is playing badly. If you cannot stay over 90% hp as a DS ele against a condi build, it’s entierly your fault. See, how can this go both ways?

Because the skilled player wins in that case, that is how PvP games should be.

If you call skill equiping a certain trait, sure.

No you say that a skilled Ele can stay over 90% health, and other say a skilled opponent can break through the top 10% of the health before burst. That means the more skilled one wins the fight. Equipping DS and standing still won’t win you the fight as you yourself stated “If you cannot stay over 90% hp as a DS ele against a condi build, it’s entierly your fault”

I never said a skilled ele can stay over 90% hp. There’s not anything skillful about that and anyone who has at least half of a brain can accomplish that.

Laraley.7695:

Arutha.9874:

Laraley.7695:

Arutha.9874:

Laraley.7695:

Sunshine.5014:

Without DS, the Tempest build would be a joke in PvP. Right now most people would rate it at below average, only higher than Berserker.

If you can’t even break through 10% of a Tempest, it’s really your issue. Even on my condi Reaper, I could do it easily.

Then the ele is playing badly. If you cannot stay over 90% hp as a DS ele against a condi build, it’s entierly your fault. See, how can this go both ways?

Because the skilled player wins in that case, that is how PvP games should be.

If you call skill equiping a certain trait, sure.

No you say that a skilled Ele can stay over 90% health, and other say a skilled opponent can break through the top 10% of the health before burst. That means the more skilled one wins the fight. Equipping DS and standing still won’t win you the fight as you yourself stated “If you cannot stay over 90% hp as a DS ele against a condi build, it’s entierly your fault”

I never said a skilled ele can stay over 90% hp. There’s not anything skillful about that and anyone who has at least half of a brain can accomplish that.

And others say that there’s not anything skillful and anyone who has at least half of a brain can accomplish dealing 1.6k direct damage before applying condi burst.

Also replying to your other post, why aren’t you using instant condi appliers then? If he heals back to over 90% his condis aren’t cleared you just can’t apply more, so if you have gotten some condis on him in the instant cast window when he is below 90% then he will naturally drop below 90% again and again.
There is an obvious spite in your replies which makes me think you have never tried DS for yourself only against it, or straight given up as soon as you saw the opponent Ele had it equipped, try it for yourself to see how easily other would counter it, or try the things we suggest in this thread: direct damage first then condi.

Burn guard, don’t JI in, GS leap whirl and then JI Ring of Fire, but you are playing a losing spec anyway against Ele unless he forgot water for some reason.
Condi engi, use your hammer or wrench otherwise you won’t break it.
Tell us if you have another spec I haven’t played that is struggling and I am sure someone will know the answer.

Arutha.9874:

Laraley.7695:

Arutha.9874:

Laraley.7695:

Arutha.9874:

Laraley.7695:

Sunshine.5014:

Without DS, the Tempest build would be a joke in PvP. Right now most people would rate it at below average, only higher than Berserker.

If you can’t even break through 10% of a Tempest, it’s really your issue. Even on my condi Reaper, I could do it easily.

Then the ele is playing badly. If you cannot stay over 90% hp as a DS ele against a condi build, it’s entierly your fault. See, how can this go both ways?

Because the skilled player wins in that case, that is how PvP games should be.

If you call skill equiping a certain trait, sure.

No you say that a skilled Ele can stay over 90% health, and other say a skilled opponent can break through the top 10% of the health before burst. That means the more skilled one wins the fight. Equipping DS and standing still won’t win you the fight as you yourself stated “If you cannot stay over 90% hp as a DS ele against a condi build, it’s entierly your fault”

I never said a skilled ele can stay over 90% hp. There’s not anything skillful about that and anyone who has at least half of a brain can accomplish that.

And others say that there’s not anything skillful and anyone who has at least half of a brain can accomplish dealing 1.6k direct damage before applying condi burst.

Also replying to your other post, why aren’t you using instant condi appliers then? If he heals back to over 90% his condis aren’t cleared you just can’t apply more, so if you have gotten some condis on him in the instant cast window when he is below 90% then he will naturally drop below 90% again and again.
There is an obvious spite in your replies which makes me think you have never tried DS for yourself only against it, or straight given up as soon as you saw the opponent Ele had it equipped, try it for yourself to see how easily other would counter it, or try the things we suggest in this thread: direct damage first then condi.

Burn guard, don’t JI in, GS leap whirl and then JI Ring of Fire, but you are playing a losing spec anyway against Ele unless he forgot water for some reason.
Condi engi, use your hammer or wrench otherw9ise you won’t break it.
Tell us if you have another spec I haven’t played that is struggling and I am sure someone will know the answer.

You’re completely missing the point. DS is a badly designed trait by default because it completely shuts down one source of damage without very little effort. Usually the people who depend on this trait defend it as much as they can but hey there’s literally no reason why not make this trait more active and allow a better counterplay.

I wonder how happy people would be if there was a trait that would make you immune to all physical damage if you were over 90% hp. I suppose not so much.

Fyi, I’ve tried DS and no it doesn’t take much effort to counter condition builds with that trait.

well i play ele myself and even earth. But i don´t use DS. I can imagine it will win fights against full condi/defence builds. So full dire is propably countered.
I had no problem against it. I use rabid stats and when i meet a DS ele is see the invul on the first hits but then i know he depends on DS and he dies.

it doesn’t make condition based opponents completely useless…

1) Elementalists usually have low health to begin with, even at “medium” health pool of 17k the condition based opponent needs to deal 1700 dmg before he can apply conditions on you

2) Even if you heal back to +90% health, the conditions that were on you from before do not disappear…they still deal dmg on you

3) You are “sacrificing” 1 trait slot into earth magic to get this trait, and it also competes with Stone Heart grandmaster trait which essentially counters crit burst builds.

4) A ele has numerous ways of condi clensing, Ether Renewal would be the best option

I find it obnoxious when I lay a cc trap or just in general try to soft cc with a condi and they completely laugh it off. But I don’t think it completely counters builds or anything.

Maybe there should have been some kind of cap on it like 3 condi every 10sec window?Probably too far past the point of review now.

People complaining that DS is too OP are just crying. You have classes that can basically throw conditions on a given player non stop, Ele’s could not keep up with the condi clear in the current game state. For Eles that use DS , typically they will need heals and/or condi cleanse to help cover or the trait is useless

Those Eles that use DS and maybe trait for condi cleanse via water ….they just have high sustain. So they probably do average or below average DPS .

Lets just nerf Conditions and DS would be fixed.

By the way every build has a counter. A good thief power build can easily drop an ele with DS below 90%.

I don’t think diamond skin is OP, but I also definitely want it to be changed to less binary. Right now it can counter condi builds since we have higher sustain than most condi build has direct dmg burst, however vs a non-condi build it’s like we’re running one less trait.

I’d rather it get tuned to something else that is applicable in more situations.

diamond skin counters noobs

I feel like the person complaining has never played Ele before.

DS only works while the Ele is above 90%. That means that ANY time where the Ele is below 90%, they can get condis. Eles yo-yo all the time and 10% of our health is very little.

If you think DS is passive, then you don’t realize how easily Eles drop below 90%.

What builds run condi that aren’t able to dish out 1.7k damage? (10% of spvp ele health with cele and no vit on runes i believe).

Been asking around on fights i’ve been in where they constantly complain about it. And they said they aren’t running dire, so what is it? Only condi build i played is trapper ranger and that never had any problem getting 10% off an ele.

Outsider.6051:

What builds run condi that aren’t able to dish out 1.7k damage? (10% of spvp ele health with cele and no vit on runes i believe).

Been asking around on fights i’ve been in where they constantly complain about it. And they said they aren’t running dire, so what is it? Only condi build i played is trapper ranger and that never had any problem getting 10% off an ele.

Hm, I wonder if it has anything to do with the ele having 40% (33% at worst) dmg reduction 100% uptime.

Laraley.7695:

Outsider.6051:

What builds run condi that aren’t able to dish out 1.7k damage? (10% of spvp ele health with cele and no vit on runes i believe).

Been asking around on fights i’ve been in where they constantly complain about it. And they said they aren’t running dire, so what is it? Only condi build i played is trapper ranger and that never had any problem getting 10% off an ele.

Hm, I wonder if it has anything to do with the ele having 40% (33% at worst) dmg reduction 100% uptime.

Good thing Necro (who is one of the major reasons for training ds) has boon stripping then.

Laraley.7695:

Outsider.6051:

What builds run condi that aren’t able to dish out 1.7k damage? (10% of spvp ele health with cele and no vit on runes i believe).

Been asking around on fights i’ve been in where they constantly complain about it. And they said they aren’t running dire, so what is it? Only condi build i played is trapper ranger and that never had any problem getting 10% off an ele.

Hm, I wonder if it has anything to do with the ele having 40% (33% at worst) dmg reduction 100% uptime.

Screw this then, lets remove all earth line.

Outsider.6051:

Laraley.7695:

Outsider.6051:

What builds run condi that aren’t able to dish out 1.7k damage? (10% of spvp ele health with cele and no vit on runes i believe).

Been asking around on fights i’ve been in where they constantly complain about it. And they said they aren’t running dire, so what is it? Only condi build i played is trapper ranger and that never had any problem getting 10% off an ele.

Hm, I wonder if it has anything to do with the ele having 40% (33% at worst) dmg reduction 100% uptime.

Screw this then, lets remove all earth line.

The 7% increase is Tempest, not Earth.

Laraley.7695:

Sunshine.5014:

Without DS, the Tempest build would be a joke in PvP. Right now most people would rate it at below average, only higher than Berserker.

If you can’t even break through 10% of a Tempest, it’s really your issue. Even on my condi Reaper, I could do it easily.

Then the ele is playing badly. If you cannot stay over 90% hp as a DS ele against a condi build, it’s entierly your fault. See, how can this go both ways?

El Oh El

Ryld.1340:

Outsider.6051:

Laraley.7695:

Outsider.6051:

What builds run condi that aren’t able to dish out 1.7k damage? (10% of spvp ele health with cele and no vit on runes i believe).

Been asking around on fights i’ve been in where they constantly complain about it. And they said they aren’t running dire, so what is it? Only condi build i played is trapper ranger and that never had any problem getting 10% off an ele.

Hm, I wonder if it has anything to do with the ele having 40% (33% at worst) dmg reduction 100% uptime.

Screw this then, lets remove all earth line.

The 7% increase is Tempest, not Earth.

Was pointing to elemental shielding, where its quite easy to have perma regen and vigor and near permanent prot. Besides, thread was pointing to DS as a hard counter to condi builds, found also in this line with elemental shielding.

Edit: Now my question was genuine, what builds are having difficulty with hitting the 90% threshold, as i’ve only ever played condi ranger (sometimes condi engi but i suck).
I’ve read before in these forums suggestions on a more active play type of diamond skin, such as resist on earth attune or a lower threshold but change immune to – condi duration. Before, water was the strong line for condi clears, now that we have to drop one line to get tempest in the mix. I’m all for changes to reward skilled play.

i main ele for years have about 5 full itemsets for him and have never run a build including DS, that should tell you how competetive and strong it is.

In general you next to never see an ele running it, so apparently its not so great after all.

look around, trap dhs, chronomancers and revenants everywhere. If you want to know where the strong points currently are just look at what ppl are playing

I only run ele and also never use DS. It might be helpful to absorb the first try/condi burst and thus is helpful but it´s far from an autowin. I met an ele with it. First i wonderes if i can get him. His DS worked for the first 5-10 seconds …. Then i did hit him a bit harder and it was game over for him. Its an advantage and combined with strong condi clear anoying and an advantage against condi builds, but it will weaken you against power builds. And a condi build in sinister would propably never notice that the ele has DS … I use a mix of dire + rabid + giver and break it easily.

Wolfric.9380:

I only run ele and also never use DS. It might be helpful to absorb the first try/condi burst and thus is helpful but it´s far from an autowin. I met an ele with it. First i wonderes if i can get him. His DS worked for the first 5-10 seconds …. Then i did hit him a bit harder and it was game over for him. Its an advantage and combined with strong condi clear anoying and an advantage against condi builds, but it will weaken you against power builds. And a condi build in sinister would propably never notice that the ele has DS … I use a mix of dire + rabid + giver and break it easily.

+1 For the first 5 seconds or so, it’s a mind game of making him waste his heal. Then after that it’s GG for the DS Ele. 1.7k damage is so easy to come by.

I’ll say it again: Do you really think every build should be able to 1v1 every other build? If you’re going to complain that DS counters condis, you should also be willing to complain that bunker-anything counters power.

I’ve been playing with earth/condi builds since forever and I find DS an extremely situational trait, I can take it off easily (in a single skill actually) with no power on my condi ele build…. and its even easier on necro/thief/other condi characters. DS is unecessary in most ele builds, since we already have nice cleanse… and you just gain so much more with stone heart

well in 1v1 no classical pure condi build (with no power ) will be able to kill a DS ele

OFC that’s why it has made for ! But there’s a chance if the ele makes crap…

Like a thief can kill a DH if the DH do kitten .

U can not kill everybuild with yours… it would be broken AF.

full condi versus DS the match should last forever if its 1v1. you have tankiness while ele got immunity

so go viper and have fun ….

but i do agree DS trait seem too strong for ele which already got nice cleanse abilities.
warrior immune for 10 sec

i think when the immunity ticks it should have some icd like 5 sec . than you have some window to attack him untill he is immune to condi again

I’ve never actually used it in any serious capacity in my builds, because it’s really not that hard to get the profession with the lowest base hp and armor down below 90%.

The game isn’t balanced around 1v1 and never has been. Going below 90% is incredibly easy and the effort spent keeping above that just makes the ele weaker later. You also keep all conditions you gained if you went down to 89% hp even if you heal up.

It’s sad that the best trait in that line is written in stone.

Diamond skin is fine. If you spec the cancer that is pure condi (like pre hot mesmer) then you entirely deserve the karma of going up against a ds ele.

Almost everyone that qqs about ds ele are pure condi aids users who cry because their condis ez mode dont work on someone for once. ‘No build should completely counter another’, lol get a load of that bs. Says who?

ReaperJr.5967:

Diamond skin is fine. If you spec the cancer that is pure condi (like pre hot mesmer) then you entirely deserve the karma of going up against a ds ele.

Almost everyone that qqs about ds ele are pure condi aids users who cry because their condis ez mode dont work on someone for once. ‘No build should completely counter another’, lol get a load of that bs. Says who?

exactly this

messiah.1908:

full condi versus DS the match should last forever if its 1v1. you have tankiness while ele got immunity

so go viper and have fun ….

but i do agree DS trait seem too strong for ele which already got nice cleanse abilities.
warrior immune for 10 sec

i think when the immunity ticks it should have some icd like 5 sec . than you have some window to attack him untill he is immune to condi again

it’s because of ppl like you eles got nerfed several times (even if it deserved it) but it got nerfed too much now … stop QQing about ele … we already have enough pain ! (for at least a few months)