Guild Wars 2

TheGreatA.4192:

Every class in glass cannon gear does nice damage. Thing is people made it out to be as if an ele can only be either extremely glassy or do no damage. You’re not forced to be a full bunker build in order to be survivable.

I was responding to your claim that eles could be tanky and do viable damage. You then used that video as an example of an ele doing “viable” damage. That guy’s damage is negligible. He wins fights by being unkillable and wearing down players who don’t know how to dodge over the course of minutes.

TheGreatA.4192:

Spec out a little toughness and vitality while retaining a viable damage output, and you are a beast.

We have eles in our server that nobody will fight in a 1on1 because they will destroy you, likely even if you have a couple of teammates with you.

It seems like you only know two builds, glass cannon and full bunker. There is middle ground.

Let’s take for example Rizadon from Unity, he’s certainly not glass is he but his damage output isn’t exactly negligible, is it?

That is not a middle ground. It’s a bunker and the damage would shame a level 2 staff ele.

Vayra.3290:

Visiroth.5914:

covenn.7165:

Fizzlepip.5218:

Kitten. Which one am I missing? Warriors can enter but generally die soon after. Plus they can be killed while in Vengeance.

They don’t always die soon after…… and if the get up and through a portal where nobody is hitting them. Sure you can immobilize him like an ele Of course a downed ele doesn’t have the option of getting back him and kicking your kitten in either. Heh

If a Warrior runs in without killing anything he’ll just die when Vengeance wears off…?

And? He can still be ressed. It takes a few seconds longer than ressing the ele, but the end result is the same.

The end result is markedly different in that the player is defeated and drops loot for the killer, and incurs a repair cost to the defeated.

The statement was that there is no meaningful penalty to Eles using mist form to go through tower doors, because they are downed not defeated. If the Warrior is on vengeance when he goes through the door, there is a very small chance that he wont die due to getting a kill from conditions, but this is more or less statistically acceptable to most people, I would believe, because it would be more of a fluke occurrence than a viable strategy.

However, in the case of an Ele going through tower doors, he is only downed, and will be able to reliably revive, thereby cheating death by preventing a repair payment and more importantly: cheating the person that downed them from their reward of a chance at loot.

As for the cliff, I don’t see this as a major occurrence personally, and it seems as though its a smart play by the Ele, and more of a fluke type situation like the vengeance Warr than the tower move, because the Ele, is still in the open, and could conceivably be reached in time to land the spike.

TL;DR: The ability to move through doors while downed should be removed, not because it allows the Ele to escape death, but because it is a reliable way to cheat the player that downed the Ele out of their chance at loot and a kill.

Visiroth.5914:

nglcpyro.4906:

As far as I can tell and heard, it’s mostly bad ele’s who use it like this. I can’t think of a situation where I’d deliberately fight just outside safety when I can just bombard from inside with a Staff.

You are on the wall with a Staff and get pulled down.

In that case I’d instantly pop Mist Form (the cantrip), and play it super safe. If it happens again, THEN I’d have to vapour no matter what which I think was the real point of it, not as an easy get out of jail for playing outside your limits. I’d also be facepalming how I fell for the same trick twice. Well played

Thinking of a compromise, how about going through a door leaves you in final downed state, so if you go down again after rez within whatever time it persists, you die?

Venn.7623:

Gaudrath.6725:

TheGreatA.4192:

It is rather annoying that the strongest classes in the game also receive the best downed skills while the least powerful ones have to worst.

As if they don’t have enough as it is.

The fact that eles have one of the best downed skills is because if you try to actually do some damage, you get downed a lot. They need it.

Can you give us your opinion about Warriors?

Vengeance? First, it’s on cooldown when you get downed, that’s why you stomp a downed warrior immediately, pop stability so they can’t interrupt you.

If they get back up, just immobilize, cripple or chill and kite. If they avoid being stomped by a zerg and get up and don’t get chain stunned, immobilized and knocked down, then I guess they deserve to die inside the keep.

Nothing to write home about.

edit
Just to be clear, even when specced for damage, warriors have a much higher survivability than eles who spec for damage.

I think most classes have pretty good sets which fit with the class. Yes, with Mist Form and Vapor Form you can troll people in WvW, I once held up half a zerg single handedly by raining fire on them from a wall and Mist/Vapor forming to safety if they got lucky with their counter fire… but the laughs are on them. I was a single ele on a wall. They could have safely ignored me and punched through, instead 20 people were so focused on killing me they forgot why they were there in the first place.

Downed state Vapor Form is fine. Vapor Form being able to enter keeps and towers through portals is messed. Yes, I know ele’s can be made of paper. But you also have access to lightning flash, ride the lightning, and mist form. Learn to temporarly switch utility skills to safely enter and learn WHEN to use each. You’ll never have an issue entering a keep or tower again unless it’s guarded well enough that only a thief or mesmer would get in with stealth.

I do think that Grasping Earth needs to be available like a half second earlier though.+

Yep. This definitely needs to be removed. A downed player should not be able to run into a tower.

yeah.. a downed player shouldn’t be able to run into tower.. a thief shouldn’t be able to stealth his way out of combat.. a mesmer shouldn’t be able to clone, blink, teleport thier way out of combat.. a guardian shouldn’t be able to ignore some cc and run through enemies to the safety of a tower,, a ( insert class here ) shouldn’t be able to ( insert survivability way here )…

yeah.. someone is gonna say that its different because its a downed skill,, so what?? this is about ensuring the kill so therefore if you remove the eles ability to survive you have to remove all classes ability as well, downed or up, to ensure everyone dies.

pita spoon.5708:

yeah.. a downed player shouldn’t be able to run into tower.. a thief shouldn’t be able to stealth his way out of combat.. a mesmer shouldn’t be able to clone, blink, teleport thier way out of combat.. a guardian shouldn’t be able to ignore some cc and run through enemies to the safety of a tower,, a ( insert class here ) shouldn’t be able to ( insert survivability way here )…

yeah.. someone is gonna say that its different because its a downed skill,, so what?? this is about ensuring the kill so therefore if you remove the eles ability to survive you have to remove all classes ability as well, downed or up, to ensure everyone dies.

I agree. Rebuild all classes’ downed kills. No more movement abilities.

Thief example:

1. Trail of Knives – throw knives that cripple your target.
2. Smoke Bomb – disappear into stealth for 3 seconds.
3. Smoke Screen – Lay down a smoke screen down in front of you in the direction of your target.
4. Bandage.

Do this for other classes. Remove the mobility while downed. It’s silly.

Fizzlepip.5218:

Just kill the second Mesmer to appear.

You gave away our secret!

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

pita spoon.5708:

yeah.. a downed player shouldn’t be able to run into tower.. a thief shouldn’t be able to stealth his way out of combat.. a mesmer shouldn’t be able to clone, blink, teleport thier way out of combat.. a guardian shouldn’t be able to ignore some cc and run through enemies to the safety of a tower,, a ( insert class here ) shouldn’t be able to ( insert survivability way here )…

yeah.. someone is gonna say that its different because its a downed skill,, so what?? this is about ensuring the kill so therefore if you remove the eles ability to survive you have to remove all classes ability as well, downed or up, to ensure everyone dies.

I agree. Rebuild all classes’ downed kills. No more movement abilities.

Thief example:

1. Trail of Knives – throw knives that cripple your target.
2. Smoke Bomb – disappear into stealth for 3 seconds.
3. Smoke Screen – Lay down a smoke screen down in front of you in the direction of your target.
4. Bandage.

Do this for other classes. Remove the mobility while downed. It’s silly.

Engie

1. Solution 99 – Self detonate, dying instantly and taking down anyone trying to stomp you.

Ross Biddle.2367:

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

pita spoon.5708:

yeah.. a downed player shouldn’t be able to run into tower.. a thief shouldn’t be able to stealth his way out of combat.. a mesmer shouldn’t be able to clone, blink, teleport thier way out of combat.. a guardian shouldn’t be able to ignore some cc and run through enemies to the safety of a tower,, a ( insert class here ) shouldn’t be able to ( insert survivability way here )…

yeah.. someone is gonna say that its different because its a downed skill,, so what?? this is about ensuring the kill so therefore if you remove the eles ability to survive you have to remove all classes ability as well, downed or up, to ensure everyone dies.

I agree. Rebuild all classes’ downed kills. No more movement abilities.

Thief example:

1. Trail of Knives – throw knives that cripple your target.
2. Smoke Bomb – disappear into stealth for 3 seconds.
3. Smoke Screen – Lay down a smoke screen down in front of you in the direction of your target.
4. Bandage.

Do this for other classes. Remove the mobility while downed. It’s silly.

Engie

1. Solution 99 – Self detonate, dying instantly and taking down anyone trying to stomp you.

Mesmer

2. Give ’et to ’em – Stand up while downed, honk stompers nose, lay back down to receive spike.

yeah i think everyone should have the same downed state skills in W3. I think everyone should get the guardians skills. A staff guardian can put block the portal to the keep.

Rashagal.5867:

Vayra.3290:

Visiroth.5914:

covenn.7165:

Fizzlepip.5218:

Kitten. Which one am I missing? Warriors can enter but generally die soon after. Plus they can be killed while in Vengeance.

They don’t always die soon after…… and if the get up and through a portal where nobody is hitting them. Sure you can immobilize him like an ele Of course a downed ele doesn’t have the option of getting back him and kicking your kitten in either. Heh

If a Warrior runs in without killing anything he’ll just die when Vengeance wears off…?

And? He can still be ressed. It takes a few seconds longer than ressing the ele, but the end result is the same.

The end result is markedly different in that the player is defeated and drops loot for the killer, and incurs a repair cost to the defeated.

Exactly.

nglcpyro.4906:

In that case I’d instantly pop Mist Form (the cantrip), and play it super safe. If it happens again, THEN I’d have to vapour no matter what which I think was the real point of it, not as an easy get out of jail for playing outside your limits. I’d also be facepalming how I fell for the same trick twice. Well played

Didn’t they change it so vapor form shares a cooldown with mist form so you can’t do that anymore?

Wow, give us 2 viable builds, then start nerfing us? Good plan champ.

I thought they were removing downstate anyways? Or have I been reading too many forums?

Fishbait.6723:

Definitely a case of “Search the forums/learn to play” I`m afraid.

Immobilize them, they won`t go anywhere.
If you`ve already used your Immobilize skill, then that isn`t the Elementalists fault, but don`t worry, too many QQers kittening about RTL got that whack-a-mole nerfed so no doubt Anet will do the same with Vapor Form.

P.S. This skill is only of use at a keep & is a complete waste of time anywhere else.
Ele` downed, casts Vapor Form, enemy mob/player just roleplay walks along side it & starts the downed action again. Dead Ele`.

What`s that you say? Ele` Vapor Form`d off of a cliff & into water whilst you stayed to fight the others.
Chase him, kill him, laugh at your free loot!

Offense meant but it isn`t that difficult.

Hardly.

The mist form allows for the downed ele to:

• retreat closer to allies for a rez
• stall for time so allies can come to rez
• stall for time so they can rally off a defeated enemy
• retreat into a tower/keep for a free self-rez. And I’m not sure about this but I think mist form allow for eles to fall from heights that would normally kill anyone else.

Compared to all other downed states mist form has no counter or way to prevent the stalling for time. The majority of downed states can be ignored via stability, and a good player can use a shadow-step ability to spike a teleporting Thief.

In other words, eles have the only downed state that makes them 100% unkillable for a few seconds.

And if you’re talking about 1v1s, all downed states are useless other than for possibly stalling for time….unless you’re an ele around a tower or keep….

They should not be able to get into a tower. It was fine when it was their third down state ability like the warriors, but now they should be limited from running in a tower like everyone else.

*this comment applies only to vapor form, the downed state.

pita spoon.5708:

yeah.. a downed player shouldn’t be able to run into tower.. a thief shouldn’t be able to stealth his way out of combat.. a mesmer shouldn’t be able to clone, blink, teleport thier way out of combat.. a guardian shouldn’t be able to ignore some cc and run through enemies to the safety of a tower,, a ( insert class here ) shouldn’t be able to ( insert survivability way here )…

yeah.. someone is gonna say that its different because its a downed skill,, so what?? this is about ensuring the kill so therefore if you remove the eles ability to survive you have to remove all classes ability as well, downed or up, to ensure everyone dies.

Couldn’t say it better myself, personally as an Elementalist Thieves are no trouble for me, unfortunately 9/10 times I will never be able to down one before he initiate his stealth and run away. I have no problems with that, it is the way Anet intended and I won’t try to argue with that. I don’t know if I could say the same about other classes, especially classes that are in desperate need of buffs.

However, I am not going to sit here and let Thief players try to pust the OP blame to the Elemetalist especially against 1 skill and a purely situational one at that. A thief can feel immortal for 99% of the map, while elementalist’s escape is only viable near towers. Thief players have no right to come in and say any escape is OP, especially since they are already playing a class that if played right will never die even to a 10-15 man zerg.

pita spoon.5708:

yeah.. a downed player shouldn’t be able to run into tower.. a thief shouldn’t be able to stealth his way out of combat.. a mesmer shouldn’t be able to clone, blink, teleport thier way out of combat.. a guardian shouldn’t be able to ignore some cc and run through enemies to the safety of a tower,, a ( insert class here ) shouldn’t be able to ( insert survivability way here )…

yeah.. someone is gonna say that its different because its a downed skill,, so what?? this is about ensuring the kill so therefore if you remove the eles ability to survive you have to remove all classes ability as well, downed or up, to ensure everyone dies.

Ele’s because of ride the lightening, teleport, cc, speed signit, lots of access to haste if speced for it, passive speed from from air or daggers with spec, and mist form have amazing escape abilities already. Not to mention the heals, protect, versatility ect. Vapor form, even if it didn’t go into towers, would still be arguably the most powerful downed state, since it is guaranteed to prevent a stomp and has the added advantage of allowing eles to run back to friends or to a convenient spot.

Saying the downed state shouldn’t be able to run into towers which gives them a huge advantage when defending (a huge part of wvw) is a fairly reasonable request and it is a bit disingenuous to compare it to someone saying we need to remove all defensive abilities.

Ele’s also can avoid Guardian control skills in those forms, its a to easy soloution to escape w/o effort, player with the elemantalist will just jump to the agro and AOE at the gate, go down and recover inside the castle and keep repeating.

I can hit this from both perspectives. As an Ele I can go fully suicidal, take on way larger numbers fully in the knowledge I can do it without recourse. With a thief with me we can really make a mess without penalty at a tower defence. Rarely need siege to defend.

Its a strong downed state skill no doubt in tower def scenarios, fairly weak but annoying in all others. If they just blocked it from being able to go through doors it would be super kitten like most downed state skills, but imo would be a fair change. Its not right that a class can be immune from risk in a dive situation like the above.

All this unnecessary talk, glass vs bunker, “a good ele would/wouldn’t….”

It’s simple really. A good ele wouldn’t need vapor form to get back into a tower/keep. If you’re using vapor form you’ve already kittened up. Yes, we know, immobilize timings, etc, can keep that entry from happening. Whatever.

A player in a downed state SHOULD NOT be able to pass through doors/portals/w.e. Your character should not be able to be moved (/teleported) in that fashion if you are downed. There is NO REASON an elementalist should be able to do that, no excuse great enough to justify it.

The quickest comparison is, of course, the warrior’s vengeance. This ability is essentially a “I sacrifice every benefit of downed state, accept armor repair costs, giving my enemy loot, and going to a fully downed state for the sake of escaping into a tower/getting some more DPS and abilities down” button. Now, if they should be able to pass through a door is arguable. They’ll be revived and throwing kitten in your face soon enough if they get through the door just as an ele would. However, they incur a penalty. An ele coming through a door can self-rez once inside no prob incurring no penalty for dying. As previously stated, if you’re a bunker ele and you’re depending on vapor form to get into a tower you’ve already kittened up. You should pay for that kitten up.

Like lets get serious guys, vapor form being able to enter a tower is inexcusable. It’s like we’re so afraid of the nerf bat that we can’t accept the obvious.

Zen.1965:

All this unnecessary talk, glass vs bunker, “a good ele would/wouldn’t….”

It’s simple really. A good ele wouldn’t need vapor form to get back into a tower/keep. If you’re using vapor form you’ve already kittened up. Yes, we know, immobilize timings, etc, can keep that entry from happening. Whatever.

A player in a downed state SHOULD NOT be able to pass through doors/portals/w.e. Your character should not be able to be moved (/teleported) in that fashion if you are downed. There is NO REASON an elementalist should be able to do that, no excuse great enough to justify it.

The quickest comparison is, of course, the warrior’s vengeance. This ability is essentially a “I sacrifice every benefit of downed state, accept armor repair costs, giving my enemy loot, and going to a fully downed state for the sake of escaping into a tower/getting some more DPS and abilities down” button. Now, if they should be able to pass through a door is arguable. They’ll be revived and throwing kitten in your face soon enough if they get through the door just as an ele would. However, they incur a penalty. An ele coming through a door can self-rez once inside no prob incurring no penalty for dying. As previously stated, if you’re a bunker ele and you’re depending on vapor form to get into a tower you’ve already kittened up. You should pay for that kitten up.

Like lets get serious guys, vapor form being able to enter a tower is inexcusable. It’s like we’re so afraid of the nerf bat that we can’t accept the obvious.

your vision of balance is to point out ONLY situational advantages without looking at the Whole thing?

I could explain in depth but seeing how most people just wants nerf for their hated classes and do not care at all of balance i’ll be short.

DEFENDING ele has a situational advantage being able to vapor in the doors.
ATTACKING ele has a situational DRAWBACK not being able to switch weapon <===

(see being stuck in a range)

but drawbacks are not even Worth mentioning true?

And its really situational because if you want to be able to get back with vapor form you need to stay really close to the door.

Guardians and warriors do the same….they just last twice long ALIVE when their HP is low they simply have enough time to use a skill to get inside.

Necro has a second HP bar.

Thieves >______> lets not even talk bout them…….

etc etc etc

For real man? I hope your not serious with that response…

As you seem to be stressing this ever so much, I pointed out a SITUATIONAL ADVANTAGE and suggested a SITUATIONAL CORRECTION. How the “whole thing” even applies escapes me.

Yes, a defending ele has a situational advantage by being able to vapor form into doors. NO ONE with half a brain would argue this. The subject of this ENTIRE DISCUSSION is IF that situational advantage IS warranted/justified/legitimate given the current game WvW meta. The answer is a resounding NO.

I don’t know what made you bring up the lack of weapon swaps. I honestly don’t see how this “drawback” is really related or even enough to justify this situational advantage we speak of. I can’t really follow your line of thought here, seems like your just trying to strawman together yourself an argument.

Yes, you need to stay close to the door. After you’ve burned your teleport, cleansing flame, mist form, water attunement condition removal/heal, earth protection, RTL if you felt very adventurous, and burning speed. Then at the end of all that, yes you need to be close to the door. Then you can get downed and vapor form in immediately (no CD to wait for like vengeance).

Like I said before, if you’re at that point, you already kittened up and shouldn’t be allowed in the door.

Guardians don’t get downed and then pass through the door. It’d be similar to us popping mistform and passing through it. Not comparable to the downed state vapor form.

As for necro, don’t know enough to comment.

Thief can’t #2 downed into a door. Stealth abuse sure w/e but that applies in all kinds of kitten stealth’s it’s own beast. Also if they’re utilizing it to get into a door, they’re not downed. Again, doesn’t apply.

Like seriously, you think you can argue being able to pass through a tower door via a downed state ability that does not penalize you in any way?

Wtf is the world coming to…

PS. I main ele. I’m not some other class QQing.

Caffynated.5713:

I was responding to your claim that eles could be tanky and do viable damage. You then used that video as an example of an ele doing “viable” damage. That guy’s damage is negligible. He wins fights by being unkillable and wearing down players who don’t know how to dodge over the course of minutes.

Negligible in comparison to a full glass cannon maybe.

That is not a middle ground. It’s a bunker and the damage would shame a level 2 staff ele.

A bunker build is going all the way on defense and doing a few hundred damage, not 5k AoE crits.

The whole argument was that only a glass cannon can “destroy” bigger groups because apparently more survivable builds don’t have enough damage to take enemies out. Based on all I’ve seen it’s the more survivable eles who still do viable damage which are the ones that take out bigger groups, while glass cannons usually go down like a sack of grain in any situation other than 1v1.

These builds definitely don’t need a vapor form to bail them out of situations as they rarely go down in the first place. As said, an elementalist has more than enough defensive abilities to not need an ability to go through tower portals while downed, it’s just a weak argument in my estimation. Making it appear as if eles go down more than other classes which is untrue.

The thing about eles not being able to switch weapons is kind of silly anyway when they have access to 10 more weapon skills than any other class.

TheGreatA.4192:

The whole argument was that only a glass cannon can “destroy” bigger groups because apparently more survivable builds don’t have enough damage to take enemies out. Based on all I’ve seen it’s the more survivable eles who still do viable damage which are the ones that take out bigger groups, while glass cannons usually go down like a sack of grain in any situation other than 1v1.

Medium survivability and medium damage is generally not what people complain about. Why? Because it is across the board mediocre.

People see one ele dancing around in full bunker spec tanking a couple of people, and then get hit by another ele later for 8k damage with fire grab. Rather than understanding that one is a bunker and the other is a glass cannon, they come to the boards and whine about ele’s pwning everyone’s face off by tanking tanking entire groups while destroying them with superior damage.

You see examples of this in each and every ele thread that pops up in the forums, and it just isn’t reality.

Zen.1965:

For real man? I hope your not serious with that response…

As you seem to be stressing this ever so much, I pointed out a SITUATIONAL ADVANTAGE and suggested a SITUATIONAL CORRECTION. How the “whole thing” even applies escapes me.

Yes, a defending ele has a situational advantage by being able to vapor form into doors. NO ONE with half a brain would argue this. The subject of this ENTIRE DISCUSSION is IF that situational advantage IS warranted/justified/legitimate given the current game WvW meta. The answer is a resounding NO.

3 things

1st of all your vision of www may be distorted by the fact you play www in tier 8…..
I played too on that tier in the past and yes i could survive more than 5 seconds out of a door…

Thing that won t happen in higher tier when you just see your health vanish before being able to hit a button or complete a burning speed…….

Situational advantage paired with situational disadvantage is what makes character differences.

Playing an ele you should know how strong is a staff ele on a wall and how useless is a D/D ele in the same situation……

3rd its not like writing “i hope you are not serious” “half a brain” etc you get more credibility…on the opposite you make people quite upset……

infact i can just reverse your statement just reading the 4 right skills without elite listed.
Or when you think using mist and after vapor form is possible.

Aside how just superficial is similar statement….
As i said your vision is about small skirmishes that won t happen in real www.
Paired with bad tactic due to the low number of players/cost of siege weapons/upgrades explain what your problem is

Simply in low tiers siege are done by small groups siegeing under the door……and that has notying to do with ele.

Infact D/D ele suffers zergs a lot differently from almost any other weaponset/class

Think how unfair is a staff ele that can nuke from the top of the Wall O____o omg broken…..

I’d be fine with downed vapor form not letting us go through doors.

Quite frankly, if someone pulls me down off a wall, I have plenty of tricks to make it back in the door alive and well. So does anyone else with a lick of sense.

The only thing nerfing vapor form going through doors would do is hurt bads or people that think it’s trolling to run outside and die, then mist their way back in (which isn’t even good) I think there’s been a whole 1 time since vapor form was moved to #2 that I was downed in a position where I was able to go in the door in vapor form. There’s just very little reason to die outside your own tower that close to the door. I can live with losing that, it’ll be fine. =P

Man I’m trying to work with you, like, I really am…

2 things…

1st I’m having a really hard time following your reasoning. Like so much of what you say seems so borderline irrelevant it has me asking myself if it’s even worth addressing. However because you seem to be genuine and not trolling I’m going to respond in depth.

Secondly, I’m not trying to attain e-cred or anything as asinine as that. I’m simply following the logic/reason. So here we go…

1st of all your vision of www may be distorted by the fact you play www in tier 8…..
I played too on that tier in the past and yes i could survive more than 5 seconds out of a door…

Thing that won t happen in higher tier when you just see your health vanish before being able to hit a button or complete a burning speed…….

Ah yes the mediocrity of t8, woe is me and my clearly blind perception. I can’t relate to your “first tier problems” (see what I did there?).

Seriously though, what what you said there sounds to me is like someone saying “OMG in tier 3 or w/e like I can be on a wall and be pulled off and insta-gibbed by an organized zerg. I need some way to not let that happen, if you take away my vapor form through walls how will I ever survive!?”

My answer…. You shouldn’t. If you spec for it, you should have a higher increased chance of survival yeah. It shouldn’t kitten near guarantee it short of a seizure/stroke on the player’s part. The ele has MANY tools available to it OUTSIDE of downed state to get itself into the tower. If after exhausting all of those you’ve still failed to get into the tower, YOU DESERVE TO DIE. Sure vapor form your way in some random direction the full range, sure. You shouldn’t be able to go back into a tower.

Situational advantage paired with situational disadvantage is what makes character differences.

Yes. And what I find you doing now in this argument is drowning me in hypothetical situations. First we’re in a tower. Now we’re in a tower with a zerg outside. Now we’re in a tower with a guild zerg all organized in T3. Now we’re…. I dunno, where does it stop? You’re manipulating hypotheticals to the point where they become nonsensical. The very fact that we’re discussing vapor forming into a tower basically establishes the situation for you. What exactly downed you and what’s outside of the towers really is inconsequential. “Omg I like jumped from a tower and ate 16 ballista bolts. Why the kitten can’t I, after being downed from that, be able to retreat back into the tower with no penalty!? I DON’T UNDERSTAND.”

Rest of your argument frankly makes no sense.

I honestly hope anyone reading this can understand where I’m coming from otherwise I’m clearly orbitting a different planet from all of you and the weed I have is far too good for me.

Gab Superstar.4059:

TheGreatA.4192:

Gab Superstar.4059:

You can still stomp eles with a blink. There is no reason they should be able to make it back to their zerg alive.

I don’t play a mesmer.

Other classes can do it too. I play a thief and I always use Shadowstep to stomp eles who Mist Form away. Makes for an easy escape from the enemy zerg as well.

I guess guardians,warriors, necros, rangers and engineers will just have to suck it then?

LieutenantGoogle.7326:

Gab Superstar.4059:

TheGreatA.4192:

Gab Superstar.4059:

You can still stomp eles with a blink. There is no reason they should be able to make it back to their zerg alive.

I don’t play a mesmer.

Other classes can do it too. I play a thief and I always use Shadowstep to stomp eles who Mist Form away. Makes for an easy escape from the enemy zerg as well.

I guess guardians,warriors, necros, rangers and engineers will just have to suck it then?

Just a silly thing to say. Would you prefer that everyone in GW2 has the exact same skill set?

By that same argument you could say it’s unfair that a Guardian, Necro, Warrior etc can interrupt your stomp and you have to spend all that extra time running back up to them to start your stomp over… OK, yes, an ele can Mist Form back to their lines if they go down, big deal.

I do however agree that being able to Mist Form back into a tower/keep etc seems somewhat unfair. I can jump down, drop all the aoe I can think of until I down and then gtfo. Often I won’t even worry about staying alive, just unload everything I have because I know I can still get to safety if I’m downed. So yes, that’s reasonable, but having to run after them to stomp them? That’s just a silly complaint.

Every class has something OP about them compared to another class. Also, just remember that for every opponent in WvW that is able to do something that you aren’t, then there is a teammate of yours doing the same thing to them. It works both ways, it may be imba between you and them, but it’s not imba if both teams are able to do it. That’s why I don’t understand posts that complain about what one class can do compared to the others, especially when it comes to WvW, because both teams are taking advantage of it.

Chainspell.5697:

However, I am not going to sit here and let Thief players try to pust the OP blame to the Elemetalist especially against 1 skill and a purely situational one at that. A thief can feel immortal for 99% of the map, while elementalist’s escape is only viable near towers. Thief players have no right to come in and say any escape is OP, especially since they are already playing a class that if played right will never die even to a 10-15 man zerg.

Thieves have every right to question a Downed Skill. Just because we’re Thieves we can’t discuss this game…?

SlimGenre.6417:

Every class has something OP about them compared to another class. Also, just remember that for every opponent in WvW that is able to do something that you aren’t, then there is a teammate of yours doing the same thing to them. It works both ways, it may be imba between you and them, but it’s not imba if both teams are able to do it. That’s why I don’t understand posts that complain about what one class can do compared to the others, especially when it comes to WvW, because both teams are taking advantage of it.

I don’t know if you’re referring to my original post, but I wasn’t complaining. It’s not about who’s doing it, it’s that it can be done in the first place. IMO if an Elementalist feels like martyring and jumping off a wall to AoE bomb everyone, or run up behind a zerg at a keep and AoE the same—both without worrying about inflicting massive AoE damage and having to survive it—that Elementalist should in fact be a martyr. None of that “not having to worry about going downed because he can just Vapor Form back into the keep, revive, and repeat a moment later” business. That Elementalist shouldn’t be allowed to reenter the keep in the downed state. Simple as that.

So yeah. In general it’s not a complaint. It’s also not a thing that should be turned on me “because I’m a Thief” lol. This has nothing to do with Thieves. This is about a downed skill unlike anything else in the game.

Professions aren’t meant to be equal.

You’re a Thief, and do you think it’s fair if Elementalists questioned why they can’t turn invisible (via magic) as well to balance out their squishiness?
Thieves are squishy as well so they have plenty of stealth skills. Elementalists have mobility.

It doesn’t matter if it’s a downed skill or not, or every profession should have two escapes from stomps just like Thieves do, it’s one of the most annoying classes to stomp, in a XvX it’s always “forget about the thief” because it’s simply unproductive to try and stomp the thief.
It’s like taking free damage for 5+ seconds and you still have a chance to fail if you don’t have control to prevent ressurrecters. It’s a pretty imbalanced downed state in group vs group fights.

Downed skills can be pretty awesome in certain situations, but it depends on situations. It just happens that the Elementalist’s works awesome when defending sieges.
Thieves are the awesomest during group vs groups.

Vapor Form is by far the most broken downed state in the game currently and shows the lazyness of the anet team. When people were complaining about the ele down state being trash (which to be fair it completely was) rather then giving it a redesign they just switched the two and three skills…..

In PvE it’s a pretty average downed state ability, great for harder high end content allowing u to avoid insta death during lupi or alpha or w/e other bosses you happened to go down on. In solo play its not gonna do much for you tho.

In sPvP Its the only ability that COMPLETELY allows you to avoid the first stomp. On top of that it also allows you to re-position yourself onto points to keep them contested, or to run away from the point to make your opponent decide if they want to cap the point and risk your team mate coming to res you, or run off the point to get the stomp giving up Points over time, especially if your teammate comes and contest’s it post stomp.

In WvW don’t even get me started. It allows you to jump into a zerg near a keep with no fear of death, it makes clutch mesmer pulls completely worthless, and it allows a way to perma get into a keep. TBH its a joke. And to all the people saying L2P immobilize them…. LMAO are you kidding, any ele with half a brain will be spamming 2 before he goes down outside a keep making him invulnerable from the second he goes down thanks to the ~1-2 seconds of invulnerablity every class is given when they fall there’s no time to land an immobilize. Maybe this skill would be a little more balanced if vapor form didn’t give you pseudo stability too. allowing at least guardians to prevent them from entering or if conditions weren’t wiped clean off of being downed.

Edit: Better yet, make it like Warriors Endure Pain, They cant take damage for 3 seconds, but can still be CC’ed, immobilized, bled, poisoned, burned ect.

I will give you the best argument: Class mechanic and or flavor, call it w/e you want, mesmers have portal, thieves have stealth, warriors have 1 shooting abilities, we have survival!

SwickHobo.5096:

In sPvP Its the only ability that COMPLETELY allows you to avoid the first stomp.

._.

So mesmer and thieves cannot?

@zen it seems you didn t read…

What is the problem of ele? complainers…..
In tier 8 (i started in tier 6-7 just to get to tier 1 some time after to play with some friends) its all about small skirmishes.

They have not much to do with WWW

D/D ele in low tiers are really strong……when you go to T1-3 suddenly a necro is better….and your D/D is just a limited profession for FEW tasks…

And not for sure to defend a keep <.<

A thing you should ve noticed is how GUARDIANS/WARRIORS/NECRO can do MORE DAMAGE and MORE annoyance than a D/D ele near a keep without even getting downed….
They can resist medium to little zerg while a D/D ele as said cannot complete a single skill if focused….

If you are complaining about staff ele you got down from a wall…well only thing they can do is AoE from walls leave them at least that…..the weapon is BAD already.

Also if you didn t notice MIST and VAPOR forms share cooldowns somehow.

Visiroth.5914:

Didn’t they change it so vapor form shares a cooldown with mist form so you can’t do that anymore?

Really?! Guess that shows just how much I rely on Vapour Form since I never knew that and played Ele since the game launched. Then again I view downed=soon to be dead so try not to be downed in the first place.

Why does no one ever mention the fact that Vapor Form downed state ability counts as another downed when it ends? This effectively reduces the amount of times an ele can be downed before autodying, as well as reducing how much hp they enter the downed state with. What class other than warrior has a penalty like that on their downed survivability skill?

Kailynn.5817:

Why does no one ever mention the fact that Vapor Form downed state ability counts as another downed when it ends?

it did when it reset HP…
Now it doesn t

Nobody obviusly ever mentioned that.

Today our “OP” downed skill gives us just 3 seconds more downed state….because we do not have anything else aside it…and vapor form doesn t deal damage.

Our skill3 is pure garbage…our skill 1 just deals few damage

Its clear that thieves is way stronger unless you are near a door (situational and as i said in NORMAL WWW you wouldn t want to exit your door but to use a staff).

I’d happily change it with thieves……but it would be OP on elementalist….because the word THIEF on it makes it balanced.

i mean:

Skill 1 CRIPPLE VS Skill1 nothing (just damage)
Skill 2 teleport VS skill2 vapor form (can only enter doors comparing to thief)
Skill 3 stealth….. VS skill3 (can we have a serious skill please…this is a joke)
Nuff said.

Vapor Form is OP when used in front of a tower. And its useless most of the times in ANY other situation. Most often you die anyway.

The amount of whining about eles is ridiculous. There is exactly one viable build around this whole profession and it got nerfed hard with the latest patch.

Guess what? At the end Vapor Form doesnt make any difference. There are so many real issues in WvW which have to be fixed before touching stuff like that. Culling, perma stealth, stealth stomping, AoE cap… to name a few.

@Teg

Vapor Form is useless any other situation? Why so?

You have a guaranted, GUARANTED escape to survive 5-10 sec more then most class that have a single target interrupt as number 2.

You can mover yourself in the water, making you immune to finisher. You can move yourself to an allied group. You can move near weaks npc to kill them.

Vapor Form is the best, BEST, number 2 in the game right now.

I’m not asking for a nerf, but just to read some people say Vapor form is useless, I just wish I could swap my kitten single target pull with you for 1 week.

@LordByron

I wish you had the same abilities then a thief, it would be so much easier to finish you guys.

Yes you number 3 is bullkitten, but that’s the price to pay when you have the best number 2 in the game. My number 3 is a copy of another class number 2.

@kardiamond:

2 classes are downed at the same time in open field…..

One is elementalist.
Another is class X

Tell me wich will kill the other OR get up first comparing ele to ANY other class.

I bet class X every time…..

What you are assuming is ele is OP because he can prolong his downed state more….but no mention he cannot do anything else (also 3 second vapor form won t make you survive 9 seconds).

Its the same old reason…gimme a wall as playable class it will be the most OP ever…..
Also nerf any strong skill but never boost all the trash enemy classes have…that is the usual “balance” of this forum…

People just ask to set back ele to “free kills” as they were some months ago….

Kardiamond.6952:

You have a guaranted, GUARANTED escape to survive 5-10 sec more then most class that have a single target interrupt as number 2.

5-10s? Never. Vapor Form lasts roughly 2s and 600 range. If you get stomped and use Vapor Form, in 99% the enemy immediately follows you and stomps again. Vapor Form doesnt make a difference, unless you can (a) escape through a tower gate or (b) the pressure of your team prevent the enemy from stomping you again. Both is extremely situational and rare. Consider you can be immobilized + blink stomped during Vapor Form.

@Teg

Actually, the duration is 3 second if I’m not mistaken. It used to be. They changed it?

And I was counting the time they need to finish you again.

Since you are guaranted to evade the firsts finishers. You have minimum :

2.5 sec : First finish attempt.
3 sec : Vapor form.
0.5-1 sec : before they follow up and finish again
3 sec : They finish you.

How is that bad? I’m nearly guarranted to survive only 3 second with my engineer. You are GUARRANTED to survive at least 6-7 second. In a team fight, it make a BIIIG difference.

Also, about the immobilize in vapor form, don’t forget you can dodge in vapor form. Immobilizing a vapor form is really hard vs a good elementalist.

About blink stomp, you’ll only suffert that if you use it too early.

Kardiamond.6952:

Since you are guaranted to evade the firsts finishers. You have minimum :

2.5 sec : First finish attempt.
3 sec : Vapor form.
0.5-1 sec : before they follow up and finish again
3 sec : They finish you.

How is that bad?

Common. Its not like other professions dont have tools to delay stomping. Warrior and Guardian has knockdowns, Necro fear etc. Theres hardly any benefit in case of delay time.
Vapor Form is strong, but overrated. Its not that great as you might think. In most cases it doesnt make a difference. Often I actually dont use it, because its just a waste of time to delay a garantied stomp.

Dont blame other professions just because your profession lacks a decent downed skill to delay stomping.

Mist form is the only good thing in the ele downed state, but even then its not that great. If you are crippled or pinned mist form is worthless or very slow. You can also watch the person in mist form and follow them its not like they are invisible.

If an ele is trolling you near a gate and using mist to get back in he is either bored, trolling , or trying to lure you in so his buddies can get a good hit on you.

Most the time in WvW if I go down with my ele, I am dead, the enemy just follows my mist and kills me when I go down again. If I am lucky and a teammate sees this and helps me I might be able to survive but 90% of the time, when I go down in WvW I die.

The same thing happens in PVE if an ele goes down fighting something, mist form only increases the odds of survival about 50%, half the time the mob will reengage when mist form is over.

@teg & @Tweeve

You guys have to understand that’s the case of every class. If you die alone in WvW, you’ll die 90% of the time.

@Teg

Yes, a Warrior, guardian, and necromancer can do the same delay.

The difference? They all can be countered except a good thief and Elem. Mesmer can be randomly countered, but not often.

How do you finish on your first attempt a warrior, guardian, necro in your exemple? Pop stability, invul, blind ect..

How do you finish an Elem on your first attemp? You can’t. It’s impossible if the Elem time it right so you can’t blink +finish.

People say Elem have the best downed state, not because you survive so much longer, but because you are GUARANTED to surving longer then 1 finisher.

Being a teleport is only icing on the cake.

Only Thief and mesmer can be as annoying downed state.

If I can find the post, even Anet said the Elem downed state vapor form was an issue.

You really have to play another class to discover how good yours is. When I played my necromancer, I thought my downed were bad(they aren’t really good) but it’s nothing if you compare to engineer.

Skimmed a lot, skipped most of 2nd page. I’m an ele.

I agree with vapor form not being able to enter a keep/tower because it is a strong situational advantage because it partially eliminates the disadvantages of leaving the keep’s shelter and fixing this.
However, it should still be able to jump off cliffs and such. If it could only move, then it’s practically just a slow teleport. Plus you have to remember that it applies more downed penalty when you use it, so it’s like being downed twice, and that skill 3 kind of sucks as well (takes too long to activate for the immobilization to be useful in most situations).

How to balance all downed skills but Engineers:
1. Swap Vapor Form and Grasping Earth again
2. Give Grasping Earth an additional daze effect on the first pulse equal to the Ranger’s Thunderclap, but only the single target is affected by the daze. Change the cooldown to be the same.
3. Change Vapor Form’s pre-down cooldown to the same as Warrior’s Vengeance.
CONGRATULATIONS! It’s balanced!

How I would fix the vapor form:

A. Make it have a short cooldown when going down (like 1 or 2 seconds).

This would make vapor form counterable with immobilize. At the moment you can cast vapor form before anyone can hit you.

B. If this isn’t enough, let movement impairing conditions affect movement speed in vapor form. I would do the changes step by step so vapor form will not end up beign useless. Personally I think that the change A would be enough.

This would make cripple and chill affect the distance an elementalist can move thus preventing him/her for running into a keep for quite a long distance.

Every profession has a counter to their downed nr. 2 skill, (stability and blind will counter the most, for thief you need to have a teleportation skill, mesmers just go invisible but you can damage them as they are nearby the original location) except elementalists. This is a game all about making plays and counterplays so I don’t get the idea why vapor form has a not counterable status