Guild Wars 2

DarnDevil IV.2143:

I don’t get the idea why vapor form has a not counterable status

it has

Also you cannot counter what i doesn t do anything…..

the fcat skill 1-3 are trash and that MOST ele builds just die to a breeze is not important…

I can accept to make all downed skills in line with ele that is making 1-3 useless and putting a CD on 3……(also no noticeable damage from any downed skill).

Seems fair to me….

Just because a SINGLE build in SMALL SCALE pvp in www map, can sometime vapor form into a building you want a 360° nerf.

This community is really playing the game on forums rather than in game…

I was in WvW today and I heard someone saying in MapChat that he wasn’t able to Vapor Form inside the tower anymore… I didn’t get to test it, can anyone confirm?

It’s op in its current form… makes ele have the strongest downed state in the game with that one skill.

It’s instant so no time to cc/root.
You can’t stop it with line/ring of warding.
You can’t damage them/cc when it’s active.
It removes all conditions when you drop out of it.
You can go through gates with it or just back to the safety of your zerg.

So Eles have no real need to worry about getting downed in far too many situations.

It needs SOMETHING able to counter it. On the other hand the other downed skills need a buff. There needs to be some tradeoffs done for sure.

Danicco.3568:

I was in WvW today and I heard someone saying in MapChat that he wasn’t able to Vapor Form inside the tower anymore… I didn’t get to test it, can anyone confirm?

Still works.

Aberrant.6749:

It’s op in its current form… makes ele have the strongest downed state in the game with that one skill.

It’s instant so no time to cc/root.
You can’t stop it with line/ring of warding.
You can’t damage them/cc when it’s active.
It removes all conditions when you drop out of it.
You can go through gates with it or just back to the safety of your zerg.

So Eles have no real need to worry about getting downed in far too many situations.

It needs SOMETHING able to counter it. On the other hand the other downed skills need a buff. There needs to be some tradeoffs done for sure.

OP in its current form? It has ONE use, getting through a gate. It is a pile of crap anywhere else.
You can CC them, people just don`t most of the time. Same as RTL most of the time but the whiners got that nerfed.
As for going through gates, yes, because none of you think to stop them

tbh I`m all for them getting shot of downed state completely, but there`s no such luck…

I wish they’d just remove vapor form allowing you to go through doors, just so I wouldn’t have to hear people complain about it anymore.

It’s such a pointless non factor I’d be fine with giving it up. I think it’s saved my life maybe twice in months. There’s no reason to be dying next to the outside of a door as an elementalist unless you’re goofing around with repeated harassment attempts from inside with the actual intent on using it when you get downed. Since we could do without that kind of gameplay, just outright remove the ability to pass through doors with it.

I’d trade the ability to go through doors for it not reapplying downed penalty.

Navzar.2938:

I’d trade the ability to go through doors for it not reapplying downed penalty.

I think it doesn’t anymore since the patch they said they “fixed” it.

And I’d trade the ability of going through doors for anything that lets me avoid two (AoE, not single) stomps like the Thief’s down state.

Currently both the movement AND stomp avoid are in the same ability, and the down attack is pretty crap after one of the latest patches, so the chances to rally are pretty bad now, so we need something to compensate. Lack of damage AND survivability in down state would be pretty bad if you compare to the Thief’s great damage AND survivability in downed state…

First off, I like the fact i can enter a keep or tower in downed state as Mist Form is the only real useful downed skill I have. I can’t fear someone off a cliff and I can set a bomb that will blow up everyone around me.

99% of Eles out there, you mist form and once it runs out you do not have to worry about killing the Ele or deal with the shinanigans that Mesmers and Thieves do while downed, How about downed guardians or Engineers…Want something crazier? Ranger Downed Underwater is fun….

Also, Mist Form has its problems.

The regular mistform gives you invulnerability from normal damage but condition damage still seeps through. An ele in mist-form is not going to escape all of those conditions. Go ahead and try your Normal Mistform.

The Downed Mist-Form…

I would only agree to not let the ele back into the keep or tower (me playing Ele Main forever so far) if we get better downed skills. I mean sheesh…A Glass Cannon Warrior can get right back up with Vengeance, Kill something and completely recover if left alive too long.

I know as an ELE when an ELE goes down and they use their mistform = not in the gate = dead.

As far as classes and glass cannons goes:

This is the only video game I’ve played where aside from dealing with a super-bad target limit, an enemy KNOWS that I am casting meteor shower and where it will hit due to the RED RING that appears as I am casting the spell. In short all my AoEs warn the players…and you know what the WvW strategy is?

In the words of a certain player “LETS ABUSE THE AoE LIMIT, ALL STACK ON SIEGE TO SPREAD DAMAGE OUT” so yeah, its counter-productive as it gets.

Yeah, I can cast a Four Second Spell, which instantly tells them all that I am casting it and hit under them. They can dodge in the circle and take no damage while dodging and even if it hits, it will hardly make a dent vs any real organized group that in order to make Staff Ele work, I have to see around 10 of them all cast meteor shower at the same time…

…While a single glass cannon in most other classes actually outdamage an ELE where it counts more…actually fighting another enemy group since unless you play Tier 1 always, you wont always encounter a zerg everywhere. Once an AoE ring appears, smart players know to dodge it = 0 damage and time wasted.

So a lot have to roll D/D considering one Kill-Shot on a good warrior build hits for 13K and lets not talk about all the damage a thief does to a player….back in the day one could just 222222 everything.

So we talk about Downed State mistform? Specially when it can be immobilized and staff skill #5 on a guardian can prevent them from entering towers…where they have to spend time recovering their life bars…….

…Seriously..

Either change the three skills an ele has to something that does not suck outside of an escape skill…Or be-gone!. ^^

@Setsunayaki

Are you really taking Engineer downed state as an example why Elem downed would be bad?

Really?

I think if there is something that 90% of people on this game can agree on, it’s that engineer got the worse downed state in the game.

Set a bomb that blow up everybody around? Yeah sound good. Except thaty we can’t use it. We have the worse number 2 in the game.

Cast time
Single target
Blocked by pets/other players
Counterable by every condition/boon in the game.
Low Damage
Pull the target to us

“but Elementalist can only run away then die”

Yeah, you have a guaranted first stomp interrupt. It’s enought to be in the top 3 downed state already. Every other class would swap their number 2 for that. Necro can fear someone off a cliff? Yeah right, because it’s not situational.

Want me to give all the situation vapor form can be useful?

- Jump off a cliff.
- Jump into water, becoming impossible to spike.
- Run to tower
- Run behind zerg
- Even if 10 players try to spike you, you press 2 and interupted all 10.
- Remove all conditions from you.
- Move near mobs to kill one and rally.

Elemental number 2 is the best downed in the game, it wouldn’t make it bad if you couldn’t use towers door in WvW. Each time I fight an Elem near a tower I know it’s pointless. Even If I down him, he will run to the door. You also can dodge in Vapor form, so dodge the immobilize.

And I’m sure Thief would swap their number 2 and 3 with you. Thief are easy to finish, just DPS them down. No need to spike. You just made their number 3 useless.

Kardiamond.6952:

- Jump off a Cliff

And die…….

- Jump into water, becoming impossible to spike.

and die….

- Run to tower
- Run behind zerg

Vapor form is short…….but i know how biased you are and what are you trying to do…..

- Even if 10 players try to spike you, you press 2 and interupted all 10.

FALSE!!! no more HP reset.
Most classes can do the same

- Remove all conditions from you.

FALSE

- Move near mobs to kill one and rally.

FALSE our damage from downed is horrible…..we just have vapor form……

i would just ask what is your purpose here?

I know there is the perception that complaining even with misinformation have a huge impact on the game so you can cancel professions from the game…(as happened for staff ele in pvp)……

If you want to compllain of something broken in www starts with those things that makes possible to get 500+ badges in few hours……

that is actually the proof on how people care of balance in this game…….nobody even talks about that….

As an Ele i can confirm it’s perfectly possible to imobilize vapor form downed skill. If the opposition thinks of it. If not, well it’ s vapor form. Off course i can get back into the keep. Technically all i need is a keyhole. Same as for going over a cliff in mistform. As long as the spell is still up i cant get hurt on the landing. If it stops one inch above the ground though i’m dead.

@LordByron

Where did I lie? Don’t take my post as an offence, I’m only trying to discuss balancing.

My arguments aren’t about *surviving" the encounter. When you are downed, you’ll prolly die. No question about it.

The question is : How hard will you be to finish? Because in a team fight, surviving longer in downed state is what make a difference.

Jump of a cliff
You die if they come finish you, but how much time you win by doing this?

Jump in water
You can’t spike under water. Making it so much more annoying. During a team fight, an Elem can win a lot of time just by going into the waters.

Vapor form is short

Did I say it was long duration? It’s 3 second. I wouldn’t say it short, but it’s not very long. But It still enought to run in a tower or behind your zerg. Add in dodge, and you can go even further.

Even if 10 players try to spike you, you press 2 and interupted all 10.

“FALSE!!! no more HP reset.
Most classes can do the same”

Where did I say you couldn’t be DPS’d? I exactly said “spike”. I think this is a case of bad reading. I will say it another way : No matter how many players try to finish you with “F” finisher, they won’t succed on the first attempt. You have an instant cast AoE interrupt. They won’t be able to finish you again for another 3 second.

Who are those “most class”? Only 3 class can interrupt infinite number of interrupt : Thief, mesmer, Elem. Other are limited by number (AoE Cap or single target).

Remove all conditions from you.

You might be right, last thread we did about this, we tested it and it was removing conditions. Are you sure it doesn’t anymore? I’m talking about condition pre-vapor form.

Move near mobs to kill one and rally.

“FALSE our damage from downed is horrible…..we just have vapor form……”

Your number 1 is listed for 195 damage for 1/2 delay + 1 stack of vuln.

That mean that if you are building for dps, you can hit for up to 1.2-1.5k damage each 0.5 second.
Your number 3 is really average, I concure. But he does really good damage. 755 damage + 10 stack of bleeds for 3 second is a lot.

The reason why you think you don’t hit hard with Elem, is prolly because you are bunker/hybrid build. 90% of the Elem population isn’t GC, so you won’t see crazy damage in downed state.

Overall your damage is on par with the rest of the downed state.

What is my pupose?

To discuss balance. I think the forum is a very good place for that.

Talking about misinformation, I agree with you. Karl McClain during the SotG said 100nade were hitting people for 24k damage. He got that from a guy that posted in the PvP forum with a screen shot showing 24k damage. The sad part was that, on purpose or not, the OP did an error when making the screen shot, and the real damage was around 16k.

Too bad Anet only remembered the 24k damage, and didn’t check back the thread were we explained how wrong it was.

Sorry I got a bit carried over.

I’m sorry If I did some misformation about the conditions removal, but those were verified information, that made a changed lately. Other then this, all my argument where from previous test.

I don’t say nerf Elem vapor form, but removing the gate usage would be a good change for me.

i’ll write it more clearly because you don tplay an ele it seems…

Jump of a cliff
You die if they come finish you, but how much time you win by doing this?

No you die of falling damage often even if the jump is minimal

Jump in water
You can’t spike under water. Making it so much more annoying. During a team fight, an Elem can win a lot of time just by going into the waters.

situational but yet you pretend Vapor form is 30 second skill….you may just move a bit….
Do you play with the purpose of dying in water? if you do you are limiting yourself to get a non advantage.

Vapor form is short

try to see how far can it go compared to other downed movement skills….
And you cannot dodge…..

Where did I say you couldn’t be DPS’d? I exactly said “spike”. I think this is a case of bad reading. I will say it another way : No matter how many players try to finish you with “F” finisher, they won’t succed on the first attempt. You have an instant cast AoE interrupt. They won’t be able to finish you again for another 3 second.

its the same for almost any downed 2 skill…you just get 3 seconds invulnerability.

Who are those “most class”? Only 3 class can interrupt infinite number of interrupt : Thief, mesmer, Elem. Other are limited by number (AoE Cap or single target).

First thing if you are focused by more than 3 players you are dead in no time….
If one of them is a guardian he has tools also to keep you in your place.

You forgot warrior for example….its quite half the professions.

Remove all conditions from you.

You might be right, last thread we did about this, we tested it and it was removing conditions. Are you sure it doesn’t anymore? I’m talking about condition pre-vapor form.

It never cleansed conditions in the past and didn t either Yesterday….but forgive me if i was in tier 1 thus full of really overpowered necro and mesmer fields that people seems to ignore because its not the fotm…..

Move near mobs to kill one and rally.

“FALSE our damage from downed is horrible…..we just have vapor form……”

Your number 1 is listed for 195 damage for 1/2 delay + 1 stack of vuln.

Try it in pve…..a moa will go…..it will kill you before you even damage him for 1/3
Maybe going full glass cannon could do half HP….and yet would be an unplayable build

As said ele is one of the weakest profession in terms of damage….from downed we ONLY have vapor form….nothing other.
We rarely rally in mobs….unless you don t see one with really almost no HP you don t even try.

That mean that if you are building for dps, you can hit for up to 1.2-1.5k damage each 0.5 second.
Your number 3 is really average, I concure. But he does really good damage. 755 damage + 10 stack of bleeds for 3 second is a lot.

and this is when i say you don t have any idea of what you are talking about….

So basically i should play the worst build of any profession in the game just to have a chance at rallying?
cool

Also try that number 3 skill…they’d be better a put a “suicide now” skill would be more useful….

……….bunker/hybrid build. 90% of the Elem population isn’t GC, so you won’t see crazy damage in downed state.

I m balanced…..and my damage is lacking.
Everyone knows most builds bunker because even if we want our dmg is bad.

Overall your damage is on par with the rest of the downed state.

Aside vapor form is officially the worse downed state….
Everyone (even devs) agreed on it when mistform was 3.

What is my pupose?

To discuss balance. I think the forum is a very good place for that.

How many false statement can you put in a “balance discussion”?
May you understand why people get quite upset with those post….

Complaining wars 2…..

Balnace is made around conquest……staying alive may be OP there but in www when you cannot kill any non GC even if you go balanced (and possibly GC) tells you quite a lot that every single player asking for nerfs for ele in www is biased by other personal reasons.

You want to be OP Necro is the way….i know community is slow to realize and necros are not willing to discuss to protect their status….
As i said just having the ability to nderstand how things works made a friend with an upleveled necro get 550 BADGES in few hours…..tell me how many will youdo with your vapor form ele…

To be honest, if you’re going to be suicidal and rush headlong into a zerg, like the other classes, you should be punished for that. The down skills don’t really stop you from dying and it’s really a lot to do with luck but Vapor Form, to some degree, negates that and allows eles to escape either back into a tower or back into their zerg where they can get rezzed.

If other classes get punished for overextending, elementalists should too.

Usagi.4835:

To be honest, if you’re going to be suicidal and rush headlong into a zerg, like the other classes, you should be punished for that. The down skills don’t really stop you from dying and it’s really a lot to do with luck but Vapor Form, to some degree, negates that and allows eles to escape either back into a tower or back into their zerg where they can get rezzed.

In a typical zerg vs zerg fight (open field) there is at least 1000 range between both zergs. So if you rush into the enemy zerg as an ele and die, Vapor Form wont rescue you. The range of Vapor Form is not long enough to get you back to your own zerg most of the time.

Sure, Vapor Form is strong but overrated. The only OP thing is running through gates.

If you dont trust me, try it by yourself. I WvW alot with my ele and many times when I die I dont even use Vapor Form, because its as useless as most downed skills in this game.

Usagi.4835:

To be honest, if you’re going to be suicidal and rush headlong into a zerg, like the other classes, you should be punished for that. The down skills don’t really stop you from dying and it’s really a lot to do with luck but Vapor Form, to some degree, negates that and allows eles to escape either back into a tower or back into their zerg where they can get rezzed.

If other classes get punished for overextending, elementalists should too.

1st..

Other classes have weapon swap

2nd
aoe cap

3rd
Endure pain and stuff (no mist form doesn t let you do anyting)

4th
Just equip your staff as said 10 times at least….you’ll do better unless you are being sieged by 4 players.

@LordByron

You deform what I say, and you keep using straw man argument to “counter” me.

If you think Elementalist got the worse downed state in the game, I think you are gone way too far for me.

lets say it straigth

Is ele downed state without considering #2 absolutely the worse downed state in the game?

rethorical question answered officially when vapor form was #3……

may be a situationally defensive good skill with the worse downed state considered balanced?
possibly

May be balance discussed around only 1 skill comparison (in a rare situation also)?
I think not.

Did i explain it better this time?

Its Always the ele issue. people don t consider that ele has actually the strongest downsides in the game….and for that it needs to have something in Exchange..

But people just discuss ONLY strong points and never the downsides.

There is a reason why Anet switched your number 3 to number. It because having a bad number 2 is the worse thing. If you can’t survive with number 2, you can’t use number 3.

Strongest downside?

What are they?

I would swap your downed state for mine anytime, hell I will give you my Rocket boots as a bonus.

Kardiamond.6952:

There is a reason why Anet switched your number 3 to number. It because having a bad number 2 is the worse thing. If you can’t survive with number 2, you can’t use number 3.

So considering that our number 3 is awful (universally defined so)?

Strongest downside?

What are they?

again .______________.?

locked in 1 range with any weaponset.
Light armor low hp
Double CD or half duration of effects
Worst #1 in game
Low damage spike
Traits mostly limited to 1 attunement.
etc etc etc could go on…..

I would swap your downed state for mine anytime, hell I will give you my Rocket boots as a bonus.

gimme leather armor and mid hp and its a deal.
Or maybe an elixir that instantly revives me when i m downed….

Should we go on to explain every downside of every class just to justify having something?

The question is : Should vapor form be able to use gate?

I personaly think not. And I know you won’t agree with me, because in your opinion, you think Elem are in a bad spot and need better downed state.

Even the last poll on the pvp forum, 60% of the vote are saying Elem are still #1 class.

I think removing acces to gate from vapor form wouldn’t make your class any less strong.

It would only remove the gimmick abilities of fighting without any risk when close to your tower.

“gimme leather armor and mid hp and its a deal.
Or maybe an elixir that instantly revives me when i m downed….”

Why not downed state for downed state? Is there an issue with losing yours? You said it, Elem have the worse number 1 and the worse number 3. Why don’t you trade it with us.

And if you want Elixir R over vapor form in downed state, it’s anytime for me.

Fizzlepip.5218:

Looking for an honest discussion if people are willing to have one. I’m willing to listen to a good argument.

So. Sure, it’s more or less an appropriate downed skill. But much like Invisibility (old hat argument not needed in this thread), it brings with it a WvW imbalance. Specifically, the lack of a restriction/penalty (other than range) that comes alongside most other comparable downed skills.

Using this to enter a tower or keep, for example, is an incongruity that I’m guessing most of us have experienced. It doesn’t compare to other mobile downed state skills. A Thief can teleport but isn’t able to enter the tower. A Warrior can Vengeance through but will die shortly after. From my experience, most Elementalists are virtually impossible to lock down and keep out of a tower. Mist Form -> downed state -> Vapor Form usually has enough range to get inside. A suicidal Ele should be exactly that--suicidal.

Off the top of my head I can think of another time an Elementalist was able to Vapor Form off a cliff into water and leave me unable to stomp him/her. (Thereby eliminating the Ele from the fight… something you can’t do as quickly under water.) I had to continue dueling the Ele’s buddies until the Ele quickly rejoined. As a Thief that could only have gone to the edge of the cliff, I wonder why the Ele wasn’t limited in the same way. Not saying it wasn’t absolutely great playing on the Ele’s part. It was. But how someone is able to garner an advantage from the downed state is beyond me. Even a Mesmer that can go invis, summon a clone, and stack Confusion doesn’t get that sort of treatment. Just kill the second Mesmer to appear.

Invulnerability is a whole other beast. But it’s not what I’m most concerned about.

Maybe it’s just a petty gripe. I do think it’s something worth a bit of discussion though and would like to hear back from a few Elementalists and others willing to have one. Convince me that I’m wrong thinking it should be modified for WvW in some way. Not nerfed. Modified.

The only problem i see with being able to mist form into a keep/tower from downed state, is that other profs who can do something similar(Thiefs #2 for example) don’t do the same. Personally I think they should, it’s a videogame after all there should be a little bit of a safety net, which is what downed state is essentially, right?
Also, Why do our downed sate abilities start with a CD? Talking about the #3-4 abilities. There’s no point to a downed state if you can’t immediately defend yourself with it, IMO.