Guild Wars 2

This thread’s purpose is to determine the mechanics Elementalists use to survive, to address the problems within these mechanics, and then approach suggested changes to tackle these problems

This thread will be referenced on ELEtism Balance discussion thread. The conclusions derived from the following posts will be added to this post and will be summarized in the main main Elementalist thread in the class balance page.

Elementalists, by class definition lack “tankiness”. They have the lowest health pool and the lowest armor in the game which effectively make us squishier than all other classes.
How do other “squishy” classes mitigate damage?

Mesmer: Stealth, Clone Confusion, Clone Body Blocking, Invulnerability
Necromancer: VERY High Health Pool, 2nd Health Bar (Death Shroud), Life Siphon, Minion Body Blocking
Thief: Stealth, VERY High Mobility, Medium Armor, Lots of Evades

Now lets go over what Elementalists use for their survivability.

1. Healing
2. Mobility
3. Cantrips
4. Auras
5. Defensive Boons (Protection/Stability)
6. Crowd Control

Now these are decent ways of surviving, but many of them are flawed.

-Healing
Healing is great really. Not much to say against it; most Elementalist weapons have heals built in with the skills which is quite effective. The only thing I can say is to make these skills REALLY effective we do need to spec into healing power, otherwise they are only a little effective.

-Mobility
Elementalist mobility is also quite nice, though it has been nerfed quite a bit. We are usually able to maintain a good amount of swiftness, but it requires taking 20 in Arcana or 10 in Air. Our other skill which provide mobility is Ride The Lightning, Burning Speed, and Lightning Flash. We have access to large amounts of vigor and are also able to dodge a lot which is good.
Currently our mobility is exceeded by Warriors, Thieves, and Rangers.

-Cantrips
Cantrips are absolutely vital for an Elementalist to take in order for them to be more survivable. Without Cantrips, the Elementalist can be locked down and killed within seconds. Even with Cantrips this happens very often. The little survivability provided by Cantrips is so essential to us that we are “forced” to fill our utility slots with them. Out of the 4000 hours that I have played Elementalist, there has rarely been a time when my bar does not have Mist Form or Lightning Flash.
Cantrips provide little survivability on a very LONG timer. Other classes (Warriors) have more effective utilities on SHORTER cooldowns.

-Auras
Auras are great but our access to those auras outside of D/D is very limited! If there was a way that we could get easier access to auras (on OUR OWN demand) it would be incredibly useful towards improving our survivability.
Another issue is that Auras depend on the enemy hitting us. That is an issue when our survivability is based around mobility and when our Health and Armor is incredibly low. Auras are great… but when it only takes 1 Evicerate, 1 Backstab, or 1 Mesmer Shatter to kill you… that makes Auras lose some value.

Defensive Boons
Stability is great; Rock Solid is great for clutch plays and Armor of Earth (Cantrip) is great to pump out the last few seconds from your Elementalist.
Protection is also quite effective for us, being able to negate 1/3rd of our damage goes a long way towards keeping us alive.
To ensure protection, Elementalists need to take 20 into Arcana or 10 into Earth.

-Crowd Control
Last second Crowd Control is great to get away from an oncoming enemy or to stop an incoming attack, but it is not reliable.

Now that we have narrowed down the mechanics which are used by the Elementalist to survive, let’s find the problems within them.

Auras! Invaluable tools for defense, and often the reason why you’re still alive when you’re thinking how the hell am I surviving this. Just the effect of people running at 33 percent movement speed behind you when using frost aura, effectively nullifying their damage when they are melee classes.

Mid-range is also quite an important one. Many of our D/D skills exceed melee range by a good bit, which is essential to stand a chance against melee monsters like warriors, guardians and thieves.

One more, not so obvious but mildly important: PBAoEs that allow us to run in every direction we want while doing all our damage. Meaning fire 4, earth 2/4, water 3.
So what this means is while fighting classes, we are not restricted to circle-strafing while attacking, like all other classes are, but can run through or away from our opponent while using any of the aforementioned skills, while our opponent suffers from having to 180 his camera, or try to CC/gap close us to be able to trade. I hope this makes sense. Not gonna lie it’s not THAT big of a deal but it certainly helps. Not having to keep your camera locked on your target at all times certainly helps optimize your ability to trade damage in short bursts.

Obviously this is talking from a D/D point of view.

Gokil.2543:

Auras! Invaluable tools for defense, and often the reason why you’re still alive when you’re thinking how the hell am I surviving this. Just the effect of people running at 33 percent movement speed behind you when using frost aura, effectively nullifying their damage when they are melee classes.

Mid-range is also quite an important one. Many of our D/D skills exceed melee range by a good bit, which is essential to stand a chance against melee monsters like warriors, guardians and thieves.

One more, not so obvious but mildly important: PBAoEs that allow us to run in every direction we want while doing all our damage. Meaning fire 4, earth 2/4, water 3.
So what this means is while fighting classes, we are not restricted to circle-strafing while attacking, like all other classes are, but can run through or away from our opponent while using any of the aforementioned skills, while our opponent suffers from having to 180 his camera, or try to CC/gap close us to be able to trade. I hope this makes sense. Not gonna lie it’s not THAT big of a deal but it certainly helps. Not having to keep your camera locked on your target at all times certainly helps optimize your ability to trade damage in short bursts.

Obviously this is talking from a D/D point of view.

It’s actually 66% reduced movement speed and I can’t believe I forgot about Auras! Yes those are great but our access to those auras outside of D/D is very limited! If there was a way that we could get easier access to auras (on OUR OWN demand) it would be incredibly useful towards improving our survivability.

The issue is that Auras depend on the enemy hitting us. That is an issue when our survivability is based around mobility and when our Health and Armor is incredibly low. Auras are great… but when it only takes 1 Evicerate, 1 Backstab, or 1 Mesmer Shatter to kill you… that makes Auras lose some value.

I already posted it in another thread but I think it fits this thread quite good so I’ll repost it:

Gorni.1764:

I’ve come to the conclusion that without regen and protection (from elemental attunement or earth/water-traitline) defensive gear doesn’t really improve your survivability in sPvP. More HP/Toughness on the contrary is only usefull when you also have ways to regenerate a decent amount of HP and/or slow down the rate of loosing HP by defensive mechanisms (like boons and cantrips).
So I’d either go defensive or full GC. For example it’s no use to run fresh-air/arcane-burst with soldier amulett -> you won’t deal enough damage to burst someone down and at the same time you don’t have enough active sustain-mechanisms to live longer.
At the same time it’s not a good idea to run something like 0/0/20/20/30 with berserker amulett. Offensive stats won’t add that much damage because you lack sustained damage and can’t burst but at the same time you loose your HP/Toughness-“buffer” that your defenses (regen/protection) need to be effective.

assuming you build NO defense, such that heals and regen, and even protection, aren’t that useful,

defense on staff:
arcane shield
BURNING RETREAT (how did you not mention the BEST mobility skill we have?)
projectile reflect
and a slew of disables. chill, immob, stun, knockback
and a lot of range, that those disables can help keep you at
also a nice (but very long cooldown) multi condition cleanse

for d/f
arcane shield
obsidian flesh
projectile reflect (that also clears 3 conditions!)
projectile block
and a slew of disables: chill, immob, stun, knockdown, daze

for s/f:
see d/f but replace stun with blind

I don’t feel that dagger off hand supports glassy builds in their efforts to stay alive

reikken.4961:

I don’t feel that dagger off hand supports glassy builds in their efforts to stay alive

RTL, Updraft, Earthquake, Cleansing Wave, Frost Aura?

Frost Aura > Freezing Gust
Earthquake > Comet
Updraft > Gale

Obsidian Flesh and Magnetic Wave are nice though. Swirling Winds only usefull against projectiles.
I’d say against melee dagger offhand is better, against ranged fokus is ahead.

Mash Hog.5672:

Gokil.2543:

Auras! Invaluable tools for defense, and often the reason why you’re still alive when you’re thinking how the hell am I surviving this. Just the effect of people running at 33 percent movement speed behind you when using frost aura, effectively nullifying their damage when they are melee classes.

Mid-range is also quite an important one. Many of our D/D skills exceed melee range by a good bit, which is essential to stand a chance against melee monsters like warriors, guardians and thieves.

One more, not so obvious but mildly important: PBAoEs that allow us to run in every direction we want while doing all our damage. Meaning fire 4, earth 2/4, water 3.
So what this means is while fighting classes, we are not restricted to circle-strafing while attacking, like all other classes are, but can run through or away from our opponent while using any of the aforementioned skills, while our opponent suffers from having to 180 his camera, or try to CC/gap close us to be able to trade. I hope this makes sense. Not gonna lie it’s not THAT big of a deal but it certainly helps. Not having to keep your camera locked on your target at all times certainly helps optimize your ability to trade damage in short bursts.

Obviously this is talking from a D/D point of view.

It’s actually 66% reduced movement speed

Hence why I said at 33% speed

reikken.4961:

assuming you build NO defense, such that heals and regen, and even protection, aren’t that useful,

defense on staff:
arcane shield
BURNING RETREAT (how did you not mention the BEST mobility skill we have?)
projectile reflect
and a slew of disables. chill, immob, stun, knockback
and a lot of range, that those disables can help keep you at
also a nice (but very long cooldown) multi condition cleanse

for d/f
arcane shield
obsidian flesh
projectile reflect (that also clears 3 conditions!)
projectile block
and a slew of disables: chill, immob, stun, knockdown, daze

for s/f:
see d/f but replace stun with blind

I don’t feel that dagger off hand supports glassy builds in their efforts to stay alive

I agree that dagger offhand is not the greatest choice for a GC build, where as focus makes a lot more sense.

Gorni.1764:

reikken.4961:

I don’t feel that dagger off hand supports glassy builds in their efforts to stay alive

RTL, Updraft, Earthquake, Cleansing Wave, Frost Aura?

Frost Aura > Freezing Gust
Earthquake > Comet
Updraft > Gale

Obsidian Flesh and Magnetic Wave are nice though. Swirling Winds only usefull against projectiles.
I’d say against melee dagger offhand is better, against ranged fokus is ahead.

cleansing wave is kind of useless. it’s got a pretty long cast time for clearing only one condition, healing negligible health, and doing nothing to your opponent. cooldown is unnecessarily long as well

yeah, frost aura is usually better than freezing gust, even though you have to be hit for it to help you, since the aura has no cast time. the cooldown is kind of long though, so not always
and updraft better than gale for the same reason, though it also prevents you from attacking for bit, so some of that advantage is nulled
but earthquake vs comet isn’t actually clear. earthquake is the mostly easily-interrupted CC that ele has. It’s very short range, shorter than lightning whip, and it has a notable cast time. and a long cooldown. It’s excellent indeed if it doesn’t get interrupted or dodged, but against players you can’t count on that.

and yes, obsidian flesh and magnetic wave make all the difference. they’re two of the most amazing skills in the game. an instant cast triple condition remover that does damage and cripples and reflects projectiles. and is a blast finisher. and has a decent cooldown. and and instant cast 5 sec invuln that lets you keep attacking

you’re the only person I know that says cleansing wave is weak ^^

btw: updraft can be used as a simple dodge aswell and earthquake can be combined with lightning flash so it’s usually way easier to land and still quicker than comet.

Not only considering survivability I’d still say that dagger is the better offhand. Focus lacks mobility and also good damage-spells (fire-spells are laughable on focus).

sure cleansing wave is nice when you have healing power and armor, but when you’re built for damage, you’re going to spend 1.5 seconds in combat healing yourself for damage someone can do to you in 1-2 autos, and clear one condition? Idk, doesn’t sound like a good deal to me. unless you’ve got an immobilize that isn’t covered by another condition, or you can break line of sight first

Here’s a list of elementalist skills that reduce or negate damage dealt in some way. This might be a useful reference that is a bit faster than looking through the wiki.

(As a side note I was kind of surprised how much stuff can be used defensively. If there’s anything I’ve missed or should clarify, just mention it.)

Elementalist Defensive Skills

Staff
-Burning Retreat (evasion, movement)

-Water Blast (heal)
-Geyser (heal)
-Frozen Ground (chill)
-Healing Rain (cleanse, regeneration)

-Lightning Surge (blind)
-Gust (knockback)
-Windborne Speed (cleanse, swiftness)
-Static Field (stun)

-Stoning (weakness)
-Magnetic Aura (reflect)
-Unsteady Ground (pathing block)
-Shockwave (immobilize)

Scepter
-Phoenix (cleanse, vigor)

-Water Trident (heal)

-Blinding Flash (blind)

-Rock Barrier (toughness)
-Dust Devil (blind)

Dagger
-Burning Speed (movement)

-Cone of Cold (heal)
-Frozen Burst (chill)
-Frost Aura (chill, damage reduction)
-Cleansing Wave (cleanse, heal)

-Lightning Touch (weakness)
-Shocking Aura (stun)
-Ride the Lightning (movement)
-Updraft (evasion, swiftness)

-Ring of Earth (cripple, projectile destruction)
-Magnetic Grasp (immobilize)
-Earthquake (knockdown)
-Churning Earth (cripple)

Focus
-Freezing Gust (chill)
-Comet (daze)

-Swirling Winds (projectile destruction)
-Gale (knockdown)

-Magnetic Wave (reflection, cleanse, cripple)
-Obsidian Flesh (invulnerability)

Utility
-Arcane Shield (block)

-Armor of Earth (protection, stability)
-Cleansing Fire (cleanse)
-Lightning Flash (movement)
-Mist Form (invulnerability)

-Conjure Earth Shield (cripple, block, daze, pull, invulnerability)
-Conjure Flame Axe (movement)
-Conjure Ice Bow (chill, freeze)
-Conjure Lightning Hammer (blind, knockback, stun)

-Glyph of Elemental Power (chill, weakness, cripple)
-Glyph of Lesser Elementals (summon)
-Glyph of Storms (chill, blind)

-Signet of Air (movement speed, blind)
-Signet of Earth (toughness, immobilize)
-Signet of Water (cleanse, chill)

Elite
-Conjure Fiery Greatsword (evasion, movement)
-Glyph of Elementals (summon)
-Tornado (stats, knockback, blind)

1/18/14 edit (Ring of Earth, Glyph of Elemental Power, Glyph of Storms)

dukevonart.2691:

Here’s a list of elementalist skills that reduce or negate damage dealt in some way. This might be a useful reference that is a bit faster than looking through the wiki.

(As a side note I was kind of surprised how much stuff can be used defensively. If there’s anything I’ve missed or should clarify, just mention it.)

Elementalist Defensive Skills

snip

This list is great, but I was more interested in approaching the mechanics which play a part which contribute to Elementalist survivability. (ie Thief Stealth)

Now that we have narrowed down the mechanics which are used by the Elementalist to survive, let’s find the problems within them.

Gorni.1764:

reikken.4961:

I don’t feel that dagger off hand supports glassy builds in their efforts to stay alive

RTL, Updraft, Earthquake, Cleansing Wave, Frost Aura?

Frost Aura > Freezing Gust
Earthquake > Comet
Updraft > Gale

Obsidian Flesh and Magnetic Wave are nice though. Swirling Winds only usefull against projectiles.
I’d say against melee dagger offhand is better, against ranged fokus is ahead.

Updraft is far inferior to Gale if using a scepter mainhand. The ability to lock someone down at range is the only way I can assure that the DragonTooth/Phoenix combo lands without getting my face melted first by trying to be in melee with my target.

dukevonart.2691:

(If there’s anything I’ve missed or should clarify, just mention it.)

+Utility+
-Glyph of Storms (chill, weakness, cripple)

No weakness or cripple from Glyph of Storms, you’ve got to use traits or Glyph of Elemental Power to get those to proc from it. Sandstorm (from Earth Attunement) does apply AoE blinds, though.

dukevonart.2691:

Here’s a list of elementalist skills that reduce or negate damage dealt in some way. This might be a useful reference that is a bit faster than looking through the wiki.

…

I would like to add, that dagger 2 in earth attunement (Ring of Earth) also blocks projectiles, even though it is not mentioned in the tooltip. You can also find this information as a note in the wiki. The skill absorbs projectiles for about 2 seconds.

Mash Hog.5672:

-Mobility
Elementalist mobility is also quite nice, though it has been nerfed quite a bit. We are usually able to maintain a good amount of swiftness, but it requires taking 20 in Arcana or 10 in Air. Our other skill which provide mobility is Ride The Lightning, Burning Speed, and Lightning Flash. We have access to large amounts of vigor and are also able to dodge a lot which is good.
Currently our mobility is exceeded by Warriors, Thieves, and Rangers.

• We also have Burning Retreat that should count for mobility if Burning Speed does.
• Some of the conjured weapons can increase mobility.
• You forgot Signet of Air for movement increase.
• What about engineers with their jumps, swiftness and their 16-20 sec CD Rocket Boots?

Not to be a poopyhead, but am I the only one here who finds the relatively often seen commercials for “ELEtism” obnoxious? Nothing against you, Mash, but it just gives off the wrong odor when put in thread titles that doesn’t relate to the ele gang you made. That, and it might imprint a bad image in peoples minds, since REAL eletism is a thing to be discouraged in my book.

Again, nothing personal. In the end you can do whatever you want, but I just wanted to point it out. Keep on trucking, mate!

Malcastus.6240:

Mash Hog.5672:

We are usually able to maintain a good amount of swiftness, but it requires taking 20 in Arcana or 10 in Air.

• You only need 5 in air, not 10.

Well; for swiftness you indeed need 10 points, as the minor trait doesn’t grant swiftness. What it does is, it lets you run 10% faster while attuned to air.

Rayti.6531:

dukevonart.2691:

Here’s a list of elementalist skills that reduce or negate damage dealt in some way. This might be a useful reference that is a bit faster than looking through the wiki.

…

I would like to add, that dagger 2 in earth attunement (Ring of Earth) also blocks projectiles, even though it is not mentioned in the tooltip. You can also find this information as a note in the wiki. The skill absorbs projectiles for about 2 seconds.

It does, really? Never noticed that. That’s kinda awesome.

I thought he meant the minor adept one for some odd reason. My bad.

LelouchViBritannia.3607:

Rayti.6531:

dukevonart.2691:

Here’s a list of elementalist skills that reduce or negate damage dealt in some way. This might be a useful reference that is a bit faster than looking through the wiki.

…

I would like to add, that dagger 2 in earth attunement (Ring of Earth) also blocks projectiles, even though it is not mentioned in the tooltip. You can also find this information as a note in the wiki. The skill absorbs projectiles for about 2 seconds.

It does, really? Never noticed that. That’s kinda awesome.

I read that on the wiki as well recently. Assumed it was nonsense since I never noticed either.

Gokil.2543:

LelouchViBritannia.3607:

Rayti.6531:

dukevonart.2691:

Here’s a list of elementalist skills that reduce or negate damage dealt in some way. This might be a useful reference that is a bit faster than looking through the wiki.

…

I would like to add, that dagger 2 in earth attunement (Ring of Earth) also blocks projectiles, even though it is not mentioned in the tooltip. You can also find this information as a note in the wiki. The skill absorbs projectiles for about 2 seconds.

It does, really? Never noticed that. That’s kinda awesome.

I read that on the wiki as well recently. Assumed it was nonsense since I never noticed either.

Oh it works. You can test this best in Southsun Cove when a Karka starts its projectile spam – You will notice the block most likely there because of the high amount of damage the projectiles would normally make.

I first noticed that when playing D/F there. I wanted to reflect the projectiles and accidentally cast a Ring of Earth after my reflect, so the projectiles got absorbed instead of reflected… Of course now I actively use my Ring of Earth more often

Rayti.6531:

dukevonart.2691:

Here’s a list of elementalist skills that reduce or negate damage dealt in some way. This might be a useful reference that is a bit faster than looking through the wiki.

…

I would like to add, that dagger 2 in earth attunement (Ring of Earth) also blocks projectiles, even though it is not mentioned in the tooltip. You can also find this information as a note in the wiki. The skill absorbs projectiles for about 2 seconds.

WOW DOES IT?
I never knew that!

Mash Hog.5672:

Rayti.6531:

dukevonart.2691:

Here’s a list of elementalist skills that reduce or negate damage dealt in some way. This might be a useful reference that is a bit faster than looking through the wiki.

…

I would like to add, that dagger 2 in earth attunement (Ring of Earth) also blocks projectiles, even though it is not mentioned in the tooltip. You can also find this information as a note in the wiki. The skill absorbs projectiles for about 2 seconds.

WOW DOES IT?
I never knew that!

Yeah I tested it in the heart of the mists yesterday. Dunno if it really is 2 seconds (didn’t time it but didn’t feel like 2 seconds) but ring of earth definitely stops projectiles. There isn’t any animation or anything, the projectiles simply cease to exists when they come into range. That’s probably why I never noticed it the whole last year

You know what I just noticed in heart of the mist that conjures are considered weapons swaps when you proc them, drop them, and pick them up the second time, each time that is considered a weapon swap so the sigil of battle or any weapon swap sigil procs with them. Which I did not know

It’s bug that will get fixed as more players find out about it xD

Ancient Ranger.3276:

You know what I just noticed in heart of the mist that conjures are considered weapons swaps when you proc them, drop them, and pick them up the second time, each time that is considered a weapon swap so the sigil of battle or any weapon swap sigil procs with them. Which I did not know

Also some time ago you could bug it with sigil of geomancy or hydromancy to get the conjure buff without the conjure. I dont know if it got fixed

LelouchViBritannia.3607:

Mash Hog.5672:

Rayti.6531:

dukevonart.2691:

Here’s a list of elementalist skills that reduce or negate damage dealt in some way. This might be a useful reference that is a bit faster than looking through the wiki.

…

I would like to add, that dagger 2 in earth attunement (Ring of Earth) also blocks projectiles, even though it is not mentioned in the tooltip. You can also find this information as a note in the wiki. The skill absorbs projectiles for about 2 seconds.

WOW DOES IT?
I never knew that!

Yeah I tested it in the heart of the mists yesterday. Dunno if it really is 2 seconds (didn’t time it but didn’t feel like 2 seconds) but ring of earth definitely stops projectiles. There isn’t any animation or anything, the projectiles simply cease to exists when they come into range. That’s probably why I never noticed it the whole last year

That’s fricking crazy! How.. What.. I don’t even

Toughness vs vitality. What should he limit be for building up toughness before starts losing its value over vitality.

Try this: http://jsbin.com/ohidik/1

Chaotic Storm.2815:

Toughness vs vitality. What should he limit be for building up toughness before starts losing its value over vitality.

Generally said, vitality helps more against conditions and is also more useful in short fights. In long fights or against direct damage, toughness helps more as soon as you heal.

However, someone also somewhen calculated that the ideal ratio for survivability is 1:10 (amor:health). According to this, if you have 2000 armor and 12000 health, adding vitality instead of toughness helps your survivability more until you reach 20000 health points, where they become equal.

I don’t really know how much of it really is true though, as I don’t exactly remember how that was found out and what factors were taken into consideration.

it’s just effective health

the amount of raw damage you can take before dying is your health*armor, so making the two equal maximizes it
however, that ignores conditions and healing, so it’s not exact