Guild Wars 2

kuritsutian.2987:

posthumecaver.6473:

Silberfederling.9302:

Please read my post again. I do not gloat, my Main point was that you should wait as i am sure that there will be alternatives. From what i see cele ele is mostly low and mid tier matches and then almost allways solo q. Teams run scepter dagger glass cannons and play to support each other. So the cele ele falls out if this theme of Team based every body is valuable and has a role. I appreciate you are unhappy with the changes, but lashing out at people, declaring their arguments invalid and not even considering other possible points of view is just extremism. You may think you have a point, but hostility towards other players or demeaning posts about how x class will dominate the oh so bad meta does not help. This kind of behavior is just digging trenches and putting on tinfoil hats. If that is how you want to be seen i feel sorry for you. In future i suggest you try not to get carried away by the apparently normal toxicity of the late pvp league and instead (again) wait how it plays out. I do know i was Quite rude in this post, but i think the rudeness gets warranted if you actually have to try to declare me a babbeling fool unable to make educated statements. Best regards.

Wow can you please quote the things that for your opinion I mentioned in my previous posts.

Like I insulted other people ideas, make their ideas invalid, I had done none of things you are accusing me to do.

I start having a feeling that you have an another agenda or you just want to troll.

During whole this thread I didn’t say anything other then known facts.

Fact 1
During 1 year period before the Cele Amulet buff, Ele sucked big time. Other then buffing the Cele Amulet, ANet did not do anything for Ele class to fix this.

Correct or not?

Fact 2
After the period of the time, Cele buffed, nobody is able to come with a viable build other then D/D Ele and known Tempest Auramancer that is even half viable.

Now the patch today does not buff in anyway the Base Ele, it even nerfs it and the new amulets does not provide anything for covering the basic weakness of Ele as a package. Low health, lack of armor, lack of damage?

Correct or not?

Fact 3
Yeah some idealistic people playing builds like S/F fresh air, which hits like wet noodle for a burst spec or burn ele with 13K HP which will die to first condi burst, but this does not make these builds viable, considering nothing changed for Base Ele these builds should viable today and played more then 20 people.

Corrrect or not?

I don’t have any hope for Ele with this patch, if something viable would be there, it would be found by now.

Only question for me, how long Ele will stay this unbearable state, I hope not 1 year like the last one.

How can you call something in the future that hasn’t been put to real test a “Fact”?

While there is no unkown to the equation, we don’t have something new to test.

Ele can’t survive with any gear that has only vitality/healing because of the lack of toughness the damage it will receive will be unproportional to healing it has.

Ele can’t survive any gear with only vit/toughness because it would not able to heal the damage it receive.

It was always like this it will be like this, if they don’t change the base class.

So tell me what amulet type solve the this dilemma that we have?

People tried with it A/W/A S/F fresh air before the specialization patch with marauder, it didn’t work and they settled for A/E/A which was OKish but after the specialization patch damage increased so much even that didn’t work.

And for the reasons I mentioned before it will not work with the new amulets also but we can comeback to this thread one month later and see how many of these predictions were correct?

Anyone who says that there will be more essential changes is trying predict future. Its essence of hoping for that somebody will implement something that solves even minimum of problems.

Anyone who says that due to changes that they revealed it is going to be unbalanced makes opinions about balance based on what devs already revealed. Its essence of making stategies.

Anyway I won’t mark it. People who wanna perceive themself as someone in that particular case as ‘optimistics’ color too much.

It won’t suprise me if they will do real balance changes or balance changes like it used to be.

posthumecaver.6473:

kuritsutian.2987:

posthumecaver.6473:

Silberfederling.9302:

Please read my post again. I do not gloat, my Main point was that you should wait as i am sure that there will be alternatives. From what i see cele ele is mostly low and mid tier matches and then almost allways solo q. Teams run scepter dagger glass cannons and play to support each other. So the cele ele falls out if this theme of Team based every body is valuable and has a role. I appreciate you are unhappy with the changes, but lashing out at people, declaring their arguments invalid and not even considering other possible points of view is just extremism. You may think you have a point, but hostility towards other players or demeaning posts about how x class will dominate the oh so bad meta does not help. This kind of behavior is just digging trenches and putting on tinfoil hats. If that is how you want to be seen i feel sorry for you. In future i suggest you try not to get carried away by the apparently normal toxicity of the late pvp league and instead (again) wait how it plays out. I do know i was Quite rude in this post, but i think the rudeness gets warranted if you actually have to try to declare me a babbeling fool unable to make educated statements. Best regards.

Wow can you please quote the things that for your opinion I mentioned in my previous posts.

Like I insulted other people ideas, make their ideas invalid, I had done none of things you are accusing me to do.

I start having a feeling that you have an another agenda or you just want to troll.

During whole this thread I didn’t say anything other then known facts.

Fact 1
During 1 year period before the Cele Amulet buff, Ele sucked big time. Other then buffing the Cele Amulet, ANet did not do anything for Ele class to fix this.

Correct or not?

Fact 2
After the period of the time, Cele buffed, nobody is able to come with a viable build other then D/D Ele and known Tempest Auramancer that is even half viable.

Now the patch today does not buff in anyway the Base Ele, it even nerfs it and the new amulets does not provide anything for covering the basic weakness of Ele as a package. Low health, lack of armor, lack of damage?

Correct or not?

Fact 3
Yeah some idealistic people playing builds like S/F fresh air, which hits like wet noodle for a burst spec or burn ele with 13K HP which will die to first condi burst, but this does not make these builds viable, considering nothing changed for Base Ele these builds should viable today and played more then 20 people.

Corrrect or not?

I don’t have any hope for Ele with this patch, if something viable would be there, it would be found by now.

Only question for me, how long Ele will stay this unbearable state, I hope not 1 year like the last one.

How can you call something in the future that hasn’t been put to real test a “Fact”?

While there is no unkown to the equation, we don’t have something new to test.

The amulets are new, Diamond Skin rework is new, what other players will be running is completely new…..

I am not againist predictions, I make them a lot, theorycrafting as well, deduction is a key factor …. but never ever call them “Facts”.

Edit: There´s something called “Theory of Chaos”, knowing a little about this concepts will help us realize while is so hard to come with a perfect balance, specially when more than one change is made up at a time.

Mercenary’s Amulet
1050 Power
1050 Condition
560 Toughness
560 Vitality

and

Sage’s Amulet
1050 Power
1050 Condition
560 Healing Power
560 Vitality

these two amulets will change the elementalist meta. they will allow eles to deviate from these stupid meta d/d celestial builds and start making other builds that can incorporate other sigils that are deemed underrated.

Yes. But i am not so happy without a secondary precision stat :-).

This would be mine :-).

1050 Power
1050 Condition
560 toughness
560 precision

Or Wanderer swaping precison and toughness.

Wolfric.9380:

Yes. But i am not so happy without a secondary precision stat :-).

This would be mine :-).

1050 Power
1050 Condition
560 toughness
560 precision

Or Wanderer swaping precison and toughness.

Gl trying to survive with 12K hp.

Yeah, that’s what happens when you build a class around the traditional “wizard” archetype of a low health, low armor magic user, but then give them a weapon set with melee range, give them no effective way to maintain distance due to the large number of gap closers available to everyone, build the PvP game around holding and fighting on very small points, give them no exceptional burst and no additional survivability in terms of skill utility in comparison to what the classes with high hp and armor have.

Typically, games that attempt create a magic user around this type of archetype give them superior damage or superior, but short lived forms of mitigation. It creates a risk vs reward scenario.

But the low hp and toughness of the elementalist really kitten all when it comes to balance as none of the changes to how elementalist work or how other classes work take this into account.

It’s just an arbitrary, unfair penalty against the class for no real compensating value and just something we have to deal with.

If there was any kind of compensation for that low hp and armor ever, it was the celestial amulet, since the jack of all trades skill style of the elementalist meant we could effectively use every stat and get value from it.

MadRabbit.3179:

Yeah, that’s what happens when you build a class around the traditional “wizard” archetype of a low health, low armor magic user, but then give them a weapon set with melee range, give them no effective way to maintain distance due to the large number of gap closers available to everyone, build the PvP game around holding and fighting on very small points, give them no exceptional burst and no additional survivability in terms of skill utility in comparison to what the classes with high hp and armor have.

Typically, games that attempt create a magic user around this type of archetype give them superior damage or superior, but short lived forms of mitigation. It creates a risk vs reward scenario.

But the low hp and toughness of the elementalist really kitten all when it comes to balance as none of the changes to how elementalist work or how other classes work take this into account.

It’s just an arbitrary, unfair penalty against the class for no real compensating value and just something we have to deal with.

If there was any kind of compensation for that low hp and armor ever, it was the celestial amulet, since the jack of all trades skill style of the elementalist meant we could effectively use every stat and get value from it.

Well said

MadRabbit.3179:

Yeah, that’s what happens when you build a class around the traditional “wizard” archetype of a low health, low armor magic user, but then give them a weapon set with melee range, give them no effective way to maintain distance due to the large number of gap closers available to everyone, build the PvP game around holding and fighting on very small points, give them no exceptional burst and no additional survivability in terms of skill utility in comparison to what the classes with high hp and armor have.

Typically, games that attempt create a magic user around this type of archetype give them superior damage or superior, but short lived forms of mitigation. It creates a risk vs reward scenario.

But the low hp and toughness of the elementalist really kitten all when it comes to balance as none of the changes to how elementalist work or how other classes work take this into account.

It’s just an arbitrary, unfair penalty against the class for no real compensating value and just something we have to deal with.

If there was any kind of compensation for that low hp and armor ever, it was the celestial amulet, since the jack of all trades skill style of the elementalist meant we could effectively use every stat and get value from it.

Well said. Well i guess i finally know how it feels like to fight necro / druid with blindfold and 1 hand tied behind my back.

At the very least, other classes have no excuse / reason to give when losing to ele now, right?

MadRabbit.3179:

Yeah, that’s what happens when you build a class around the traditional “wizard” archetype of a low health, low armor magic user, but then give them a weapon set with melee range, give them no effective way to maintain distance due to the large number of gap closers available to everyone, build the PvP game around holding and fighting on very small points, give them no exceptional burst and no additional survivability in terms of skill utility in comparison to what the classes with high hp and armor have.

Typically, games that attempt create a magic user around this type of archetype give them superior damage or superior, but short lived forms of mitigation. It creates a risk vs reward scenario.

But the low hp and toughness of the elementalist really kitten all when it comes to balance as none of the changes to how elementalist work or how other classes work take this into account.

It’s just an arbitrary, unfair penalty against the class for no real compensating value and just something we have to deal with.

If there was any kind of compensation for that low hp and armor ever, it was the celestial amulet, since the jack of all trades skill style of the elementalist meant we could effectively use every stat and get value from it.

The thing is if we decide to build our proffesion around one of these: what we would choose: thoughness or vitality. Secondly what way: traits, traits enchancing weapon skills, traits enchancing utilities or increasing base states or in other way just via weapons or just via utilities or in fresh new way for example adding new core mechanic. What we would choose?

nextgen.3750:

You’ll leave the game because they kill a way to OP trait? there are way more fun builds than this boring bunker stuff.

Inb4 you go, can i has all you stuff?

Oh men so clear that u never played d/d ele before eh… theres no other way of going d/d direct dmg ele without celestial (in pvp ofc). Its simple as that.

And dont even tell me to use scepter or staff, scepter is crap since 2 years or so and staff is just for team focused play, which i dont like, i dont like bein a support.

This last patch was amazing, i was feeling really nice last month, i thought my class was balanced except the bug with earth overlaod…. one patch later, i cant play pvp anymore, thats how hard d/d got nerfed.

From one day feeling cool, to feeling completly useless, as i ever felt in the game. In pve though, im still cool, so, you dont see eles anymore in pvp only in pve.

But hey, lets buff the Thiefs instead, easiest class in the game, and now… only needs autoattack xDDDD. Logic!

Auras nerf + Celestial removal + Diamond Skin nerf + Earth protection “fix” = D/D ele is prbly the worst class to sPvP today.

I can see how auras lasted to long, or diamond skin was a bit much… but dont make all this nerfs while u also remove celestial and decide to fix earth overload….
As a newly game dev my self i honestly cant see how they didnt realized this was a bad idea… i just cant.

Oh but w8… they gave us ferocity when air overloading right??? That fixes everything!!!!!!!!

I am also a game balace designer and would have gone much further tweaking much more numbers in traits, weapons and utilities. ITs not to hard to make ist much better and diverse without overshooting ….

I am only loss of words, it was all clear for us that it would come to this.

It happened 2 years before it was exactly the same effect.

Do you know the old saying, fool me once it is on me, fool me twice…..

I could live they just remove the Celestial, but knowing that ele will sux without Cele and over that nerfing Auras, Diamond Skin, I am speechless….

It is common knowledge in mathematics and programming also, if you fiddle with an equation, you only manipulate one variable at a time. If you change more then one, the effects are unpredictable and you would end up a mess like this.

But, hey, we have updates every 3 months isn’kitten so we have to change everything at once because we are not allowed to do something during that 3 months.

Well I even don’t play Ele anymore, the last time Ele suxed that hard before 2 years ago, I was idealistic, I tried everything make it work but not this time I am burned out. I will not make Thiefs, Necros, Engis, happy to dying them over and over…..

For all the people, depressed from Ele go play Engi, it is the closest thing we have to Ele and it is quite fun I might say, plus it is the favorite class of Grouch it is certain that it will not be nerfed to oblivion.

posthumecaver.6473:

It is common knowledge in mathematics and programming also, if you fiddle with an equation, you only manipulate one variable at a time.

Class balance in GW2 is garbage and despite good intentions and massive amounts of concrete feedback they have utterly failed to properly address it for several consecutive years. However, mentioning the above sentence at a university would get you laughed at.

Lampshade.7569:

posthumecaver.6473:

It is common knowledge in mathematics and programming also, if you fiddle with an equation, you only manipulate one variable at a time.

Class balance in GW2 is garbage and despite good intentions and massive amounts of concrete feedback they have utterly failed to properly address it for several consecutive years. However, mentioning the above sentence at a university would get you laughed at.

Really, my 20 years of professional experiences tell me completely the otherwise.

And my Computational Fluid Dynamics simulations from my University years, that are relying to 7 variables and 6 equations, which only give you the chance solve it to block 6 variables and simulate over the 7th variable.

So you can play your besser/wisser somewhere else.

posthumecaver.6473:

So you can play your besser/wisser somewhere else.

Calling someone a besserwisser after stating "It is common knowledge . . . " well played.

By the way, I have 150 years of experience as a wizard and can solve systems of 30 equations with 35 variables off the top of my head. Really.

On a little more serious note though, you present an extremely broad principle and then try to confirm it by a very specific example. Even really simple linear systems can have more than one degree of freedom. Then again, I can see how the filthy casuals from applied disciplines could dislike “fiddling” with multiple variables and instead just wait for someone else to do the real work

I’d be curious to see what the new meta build ends up being. Nerfs to celes, auras, and diamond skin really hit the sustain/survivability. Burst damage has been a weak point for a long time, but hopefully we can all put our heads together and get a viable build. No need to quit pvp over it. Worse case just roll another class.

I would rather find a decent build for ele. If I can’t then I’ll work on things I’ve neglected in pve this season. If I can’t be decent with my fav char I’d rather not do pvp on a diff char. Either way just have to see

MadRabbit.3179:

Yeah, that’s what happens when you build a class around the traditional “wizard” archetype of a low health, low armor magic user, but then give them a weapon set with melee range, give them no effective way to maintain distance due to the large number of gap closers available to everyone, build the PvP game around holding and fighting on very small points, give them no exceptional burst and no additional survivability in terms of skill utility in comparison to what the classes with high hp and armor have.

Typically, games that attempt create a magic user around this type of archetype give them superior damage or superior, but short lived forms of mitigation. It creates a risk vs reward scenario.

But the low hp and toughness of the elementalist really kitten all when it comes to balance as none of the changes to how elementalist work or how other classes work take this into account.

It’s just an arbitrary, unfair penalty against the class for no real compensating value and just something we have to deal with.

If there was any kind of compensation for that low hp and armor ever, it was the celestial amulet, since the jack of all trades skill style of the elementalist meant we could effectively use every stat and get value from it.

This. Ele was balanced around celestial. Add in the horrible elite spec that tempest turned out to be and Ele is finished for me as well.

Mem no Fushia.7604:

The thing is if we decide to build our proffesion around one of these: what we would choose: thoughness or vitality. Secondly what way: traits, traits enchancing weapon skills, traits enchancing utilities or increasing base states or in other way just via weapons or just via utilities or in fresh new way for example adding new core mechanic. What we would choose?

Off the top of my head, you would have to retool the weapons and trait lines to have a mix of offensive and defensive abilities. Like, the reason every elementalist PvP build has taken water for the last 3 years is because that is where all the sustain is that we need to survive.

Same with every build taking Arcane and/or Tempest, because they serve as utility specs that benefit all trait lines and have a mix of offensive and defensive capability. The third spec is either Earth, Air or Fire depending on your goal or weapon choice.

Popular builds rarely ever deviate from this formula, because the over all design of the game just isn’t conducive to ranged characters. You just have really no effective way to maintain distance, which is the stereotypical compensation when you play a weak armor, weak health magic user. Weak armor and weak health is what balances that gameplay element out, because it’s harder to get close to you, but if they do, it takes a melee less time to put you down.

Comparing WvW to PvP really makes this distinction I am highlighting shine. In WvW, you can actually run glass cannon style ranged builds, because WvW has a lot of open spaces and a lot of areas where you can elevation to effectively use ranged damage and gain an advantage. But in PvP, this just doesn’t exist. In the one game type that has historically existed, it’s all about fighting over a very small point and tactical usage of elevation just doesn’t happen very much at all. The entire structure of the Conquest just completely kittens on elementalist.

The same reason applies to why every elementalist build takes cantrips and/or shouts, because they provide a level of mitigation needed to actively survive. If the weapon skills were retooled to all have an equal mixture of offensive abilities and defensive abilities, it would free up our utility slots to player choice. With an equal mixture of base offensive and defensive ability, you can choose to supplement it with either more offensive and defensive utility skills.

It’s entirely viable to do so, because all of our weapons have a variety of broken and near useless skills that don’t give much value. You can reallocate them so each main hand weapon had 2 offense and 1 defense, each offhand 1 offense and 1 defense and staff with 3 offense and 2 defense.

Or better yet, just get rid of the hp and armor differences all together. It’s not like any of the class skill combinations make any sense at all when compared to their armor and hp.

I mean, there is so many ways you can address this issue, it’s hard to list them all. So many RPG games have implemented the weak armor, weak hp spellcaster archetype to a degree of success.

You can just start with giving us some form of active damage mitigation that can be used while spellcasting. Something else besides the kitten Arcane Shield that takes a whopping three hits before going down into a long CD.

Like, you can give us a mechanic that we acquire via our trait lines that builds up a stacking absorption shield as we naturally use skills than retool the weapons to give us better mobility. This creates a synergistic mechanic where you can play a glass cannon and if you can skillfully maintain distance, you can build up a shield to take hits to protect you when someone closes the gap, than gain distance to replenish it.

Diablo 3 uses this mechanic pretty effectively with their wizard class. It’s a different game than GW2 and doesn’t have much PvP, but it’s still a working reference.

Or hell, screw the mitigation all together and give us some actually serious damage.

But they aren’t going to do any of this and that’s why I was done with PvP like a week after expansion launch ankitten ow just done with the game all together. RIP GW2.

So, first the nerfs were needed. The whole concept of an ele standing on point all day and living just didn’t make sense.

The problem is that ANET didn’t give ele another viable spec as part of the nerf.

style.6173:

So, first the nerfs were needed. The whole concept of an ele standing on point all day and living just didn’t make sense.

The problem is that ANET didn’t give ele another viable spec as part of the nerf.

That’s why the elementalist community needs to stop saying that Staff is a “support weapon” and start to assume that every weapon set can be molded into a damage role. Weapons just have different feel to it.

style.6173:

So, first the nerfs were needed. The whole concept of an ele standing on point all day and living just didn’t make sense.

The problem is that ANET didn’t give ele another viable spec as part of the nerf.

Part of the nerf were needed yes. Though I don’t like how DS is now. They tried to give damage with fresh air it just didn’t quite cut it

Ele has burst. It’s just really high risk most of the time. I’m 70% sure nothing outbursts a S/D Earth/Airburst combo. And it’s basically instant.

see FA ele, pop invul, kill ele XD.
And i feel the DS nerv. Pre patch i could hardly kill DS eles. Now i melt them ….

Blimm.5028:

Ele has burst. It’s just really high risk most of the time. I’m 70% sure nothing outbursts a S/D Earth/Airburst combo. And it’s basically instant.

It’s a one trick pony, that still does less damage then a backstab thief or revenant if done properly.

Tomiyou.3790:

Blimm.5028:

Ele has burst. It’s just really high risk most of the time. I’m 70% sure nothing outbursts a S/D Earth/Airburst combo. And it’s basically instant.

It’s a one trick pony, that still does less damage then a backstab thief or revenant if done properly.

It’s a one trick pony for sure, and about the furthest from a viable build you can get.

But credit where it’s due, nothing even comes close to the amount of burst it puts out. No way.

HellKrasher.1074:

Auras nerf + Celestial removal + Diamond Skin nerf + Earth protection “fix” = D/D ele is prbly the worst class to sPvP today.

I can see how auras lasted to long, or diamond skin was a bit much… but dont make all this nerfs while u also remove celestial and decide to fix earth overload….
As a newly game dev my self i honestly cant see how they didnt realized this was a bad idea… i just cant.

Oh but w8… they gave us ferocity when air overloading right??? That fixes everything!!!!!!!!

Sorry even with the nerf, my df tempest hold his ground in 1v1 versus reaper opness. (take a minute or two, but at least the build offer the best support of all classes/builds for team fights)

Now you either go damage, condies or support.

It’s great. Before we were all at the same time. It was bad for all other classes.

I think you all need to get the new meta build on metabattle. (not yet there, after PRO League is starting i guess) From there, you will try it and like it or not. But it will never be OP as the kittening mess we had since april 2014 patch.

Tempest will get meta as support class.

Jourdelune.7456:

HellKrasher.1074:

Auras nerf + Celestial removal + Diamond Skin nerf + Earth protection “fix” = D/D ele is prbly the worst class to sPvP today.

I can see how auras lasted to long, or diamond skin was a bit much… but dont make all this nerfs while u also remove celestial and decide to fix earth overload….
As a newly game dev my self i honestly cant see how they didnt realized this was a bad idea… i just cant.

Oh but w8… they gave us ferocity when air overloading right??? That fixes everything!!!!!!!!

Sorry even with the nerf, my df tempest hold his ground in 1v1 versus reaper opness. (take a minute or two, but at least the build offer the best support of all classes/builds for team fights)

Now you either go damage, condies or support.

It’s great. Before we were all at the same time. It was bad for all other classes.

I think you all need to get the new meta build on metabattle. (not yet there, after PRO League is starting i guess) From there, you will try it and like it or not. But it will never be OP as the kittening mess we had since april 2014 patch.

Tempest will get meta as support class.

There is the problem… just support. I can’t say how much I despise that

The people are dreaming that can use a Cleric support build in ESL.

Do you aware that with the change to corrupt boon and boon corrupting in Scepter how much Necro messes with Elementalist, plus the chill, cleans, get corrupted, cleans, get corrupted,…..

It is going to be a long long long 1 year.

And Scepter/X and all mighty burst, ok Ele make that burst for 2s every 12s, you are aware that Thief for 3s and every 3s with just auto attacking and interrupts put here and there.

posthumecaver.6473:

The people are dreaming that can use a Cleric support build in ESL.

lol

Fizwitz.8240:

posthumecaver.6473:

The people are dreaming that can use a Cleric support build in ESL.

lol

Do you remember the days just after the HoT release and first ESL days that every team running 3 dragon hunters? How many such teams did you see at the end of the season.

If the teams still think that at the season 2 a 13K light armor class with poor access to stability is only option for a support I will be really surprised, which should die to first stunlock and condi bomb. Also these siutation proves nothing other then how much ANet destroyed the support classes in GW2 PVP but I think they would have to buff mesmers, CD reduction on Wells or so, with portal and buffs Mesmer will takes the place of the cleric Ele.

And what are you rejoicing here, official proof that Ele has no other viable spec then 0 damage boon bot? Are you not tired or bored that during 4 years PVP history of the GW2 that Ele had no other role?