Guild Wars 2

sirrrock.7940:

Yea but its alot harder trying to balance the whole game out than to bring one weapon set up to par with everything else.

I know. Everyone just takes the easy way out. That’s all I’ve been saying. At least you can admit it. Most people just get upset.

sirrrock.7940:

i don’t see what would be so wrong doing that with staff ele

Nothing if you want passive effects to dominate combat. Clearly you have no qualms with that. No one does except the guy who rebalanced the elementalist class in a week 6 months ago; long before anet further dented the minds of its playerbase with silly buffs, unnecessary trait streamlining and a further dumbing down of their game.

Erasmus.1624:

sirrrock.7940:

i don’t see what would be so wrong doing that with staff ele

Nothing if you want passive effects to dominate combat. Clearly you have no qualms with that. No one does except the guy who rebalanced the elementalist class in a week 6 months ago; long before anet further dented the minds of its playerbase with silly buffs, unnecessary trait streamlining and a further dumbing down of their game.

Wait, you talk about yourself in third person now? …
Maybe if you spent more than a week working on balancing then you would understand that your input does not contribute anything.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Wait, you talk about yourself in third person now? …
Maybe if you spent more than a week working on balancing then you would understand that your input does not contribute anything.

I don’t hear you actually contradicting or disproving anything that I’ve said.

Glad you asked!

Erasmus.1624:

Sunshine.5014:

• Flame Burst
  Make it instant cast

Make it go faster.

• Burning Retreat fine as it is

It’s already instant; we can’t actually make it go faster, so it’s fine.

This is an example of how you contradict yourself.
Besides when you spam “make it go faster” it is impossible to logically understand whether you mean faster cast time, faster projectile speed or faster cooldown.

(Edit: or everytime you are making comments they are cynical? As in: you are not suggesting that these spells should “go faster” but you are describing with clumsy cynicality that Sunshine would like the spells to go faster? If you are just being cynical then you have no point. You are required to make actual contributions for me to contradict or disprove them)

Erasmus.1624:

Sunshine.5014:

1) Fire
Staff lack burst.

Why does it need it? […] Besides, if you’ve never dealt burst damage with a staff or think that it’s impossible, you have no idea what you are actually doing.

So you argue that we don’t need burst, but then you argue that we already have burst. If we already have burst then why would you argue that we don’t need it? Unless your point is that we need less burst, your argument is nonsensical.

(Edit: I forgot the Geyser part. Sunshine suggests reducing the effectiveness of healing power and you somehow translate that into “remove it from the game”! Please don’t be an other Kodiak.)

Erasmus.1624:

Staff’s damage potential is fine. The rest of the game is out of whack.

When you drive on a highway and everybody drives in the opposite direction, do you tell them all to turn around? Balance is done in relative terms.

Now, if I understand you correctly the only thing that you argue is that we need to change “much”. Well, as I have told you before in an other thread, the magnitude of change is irrelevant. What matters is what and why.
Most of the ele community argues that we need a buff to the fluidity of our attacks so that we can land them more easily (efficacy). Sunshine makes suggestions that go in this direction.
Your critique of his suggestions contains nothing but the fact that they are “not much”. This is a comment on magnitude, therefore your critique is irrelevant.
You have not expressed any sensible critique against the view that we need more efficacy.

Lol I dont see why every forum has to end up being a argument rather than people just putting in their input, and trying to find a way to satisfy each side. I don’t want passives, really I think its pretty dumb engies still get the passive burn on crit when anet realized necros shouldn’t have it. Ele has alot of skills, but at the same time half of these skills are wasted because of all the flaws it has. D/d is basically up to par in terms of having reliable skills to use in most situations. Scepter and staff on the otherhand have way to many skills that are very situational. Thats why I would agree with most of the inputs that sunshine made regarding staffs inability to land attacks in the open and scepter needing more consistent damage mainly with auto attacks

Too much staff change. Those projectile speed increases are too much. This is a jack of all trades classes. There is no other class who – entirely out of their weapon skills – gets a knockback, stun, blind, immobilize, a wall, 2 water fields, 2 fire fields, and a frost field, and because of that, none of them are supposed to be as powerful as the others. The stuns and blinds and immobilizes you can get out of a thief are easier to apply and less counterable than the static field, warriors and rangers have MUCH better knockdowns/knockbacks, but we have to be okay with that stuff. I can get behind you on a few things – fire needs “burst” or at least better dmg. TBH it is actually pretty bursty. It’s a long autoattack cast time with a long travel time and one hard single hit. What we need really is the improvements to condi’s, particularly burning, and staff will be able to do high sustained dmg in between fireballs. That’s all coming, and I don’t think there’ll be many staff eles after that patch who aren’t taking the fire trait line. I can also get behind one of two things for the water 3 knockback. Either it moves faster, or it’s wider. I still think the cast time shouldn’t be reduces to reward timing, and to make it counterable. I don’t know that I’ve ever had it interrupted intentionally by an opponent, so we’d be nerfing something that needs no nerf. Water 2 just needs to be a blast finisher, that’s all. Then it would be in keeping with the style for staff blast finishers – cast time and build up time. If you’re struggling to cast it, you need to chill them first and bait it better. It’s a very high damage ability. If anything needs the cast time and build up gone it’s the Earth 4 wall. That skill is more counterable than Air 5 because it’s already difficult to angle properly in a hurry, it’s not a full ring, and it doesn’t start working immediately after the cast time completes.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

This is an example of how you contradict yourself.
Besides when you spam “make it go faster” it is impossible to logically understand whether you mean faster cast time, faster projectile speed or faster cooldown.

Sunshine didn’t believe me when I said that all he was doing was making damage come faster (and therefore easier) because it was so hard to deal damage as staff ele apparently. So, I was more explicit. Follow along next time or just use context.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

So you argue that we don’t need burst, but then you argue that we already have burst. If we already have burst then why would you argue that we don’t need it?

That’s a good point. What is burst to you? What is burst to anyone in gw2? Instant? Ranged? Typically both. A string of buttons (or maybe just 2 or 3) which each deliver a powerful effect without any effort, animation or delay. While still ultimately effortless, staff ele burst passes through delays and animation cues: things that were part of intentional design since alpha but have since been scraped away across the board because players don’t like actually playing the game; the only reason staff was spared was that it has always been a primarily PvE weapon throughout most of gw2’s lifetime. Staff burst is very easy, it just requires set up for fire; and even then outside fire we have substantial spikes on every 2 skill. In the end, ele burst is the same as any other burst (string a bunch of buttons together), the only difference is that ele staff damage is balanced around cues and delays in order to allow for opponent counterplay (unlike much of the rest of the game).

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

(Edit: I forgot the Geyser part. Sunshine suggests reducing the effectiveness of healing power and you somehow translate that into “remove it from the game”! Please don’t be an other Kodiak.)

The guy effectively nullified the healing power quotient in Geyser. I’m fairly certain that means that it was removed from the game. Kodiak sounds like a decent guy.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Balance is done in relative terms.

Anet balances by catering to bad players and their own faulty design choices. Radii are increased. Passive effects are made more powerful. Recharges and activation times are reduced. Leaps and strikes are replaced by instant teleports. Direct damage is made less and less effective. Fights are prolonged and won by invulnerability and automatic triggers rather than gamesense and movement. Everything becomes effortless. Watch as Revenant’s 1 – 1.25 s activation times are shaved to 0.75 – 0.25 s because everyone complains how other classes can just press instant buttons to hard counter actions. That’s not relative design. That’s anet taking a stance and then caving hard.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Most of the ele community argues that we need a buff to the fluidity of our attacks so that we can land them more easily (efficacy).

Ele attacks are extremely fluid if you just have decent timing, positioning and movement (although those can be easily compromised in gw2 by someone pressing a button).

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Your critique of his suggestions contains nothing but the fact that they are “not much”. This is a comment on magnitude, therefore your critique is irrelevant.
You have not expressed any sensible critique against the view that we need more efficacy.

Your “magnitude” and “efficacy” were never relevant. My original point was that the guy isn’t functionally changing anything at all; he’s just making damage come faster and therefore catering to people who can’t just climb to the extremities of this game’s already claustrophobically low skill ceiling. Sure, he can go and reduce damage travel times on every ele skill ever (and that may bring some sense of “magnitude” to his overall post), but that’s not going to change how “Make lava font tick immediately on placement” or “make fireball travel 50% faster” doesn’t make anyone press 1 or 2 differently (except how any player would have to commit to positioning and forethought even less after such a change).

Just because you can’t burst with a staff ele yourself doesn’t mean that it’s not possible. It’s just artificially difficult given how anet has slid the game down into a skill ravine since mid 2011.

Erasmus.1624:

Sunshine didn’t believe me when I said that all he was doing was making damage come faster (and therefore easier) because it was so hard to deal damage as staff ele apparently. So, I was more explicit.

That is because you are wrong. That is not all Sunshine suggests. Also, at no point do you make your critique clear. If you want to contribute to the discussion you should:
- be respectful: do not fake-quote people
- be constructive: cynicality is useless
- read
- explain why a change is not needed instead of saying that each change is “not much”.

Erasmus.1624:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

So you argue that we don’t need burst, but then you argue that we already have burst. If we already have burst then why would you argue that we don’t need it?

That’s a good point.

A good point: so you agree that you contradict yourself, ok.
Anyway what you described is spike damage, not burst.

Erasmus.1624:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

(Edit: I forgot the Geyser part. Sunshine suggests reducing the effectiveness of healing power and you somehow translate that into “remove it from the game”! Please don’t be an other Kodiak.)

The guy effectively nullified the healing power quotient in Geyser. I’m fairly certain that means that it was removed from the game.

Sunshine suggests:
Reduce healing scale with healing power by 25%
Increase base healing by 15%.
Currently Geyser has a healing power scaling of 0.75, which is very high. His suggestion would bring this scaling to 0.56, while increasing the base heal (from 2,424 to 2788). Remember what I said in my first paragraph? Read.

Erasmus.1624:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Balance is done in relative terms.

Anet balances by […

It does not matter how you perceive Anet balances the game.
The point is that it makes no sense to say something like “this particular weapon of this particular class is the standard. We must change the entirety of the rest of the game according to this particular standard”. Staff has difficulties sustaining damage pressure in PvP, therefore it is legitimate to investigate whether staff should be buffed. In contrast it is completely illegitimate to ask to change all of the other weapons on all of the other classes just so that they become relatively on par with our lacklustre weapon.

Erasmus.1624:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Most of the ele community argues that we need a buff to the fluidity of our attacks so that we can land them more easily (efficacy).

Ele attacks are extremely fluid if you just have decent timing, positioning and movement

Yeah that’s essentially the definition of not fluid
If the staff attacks were so fluid then top players in pvp wouldn’t have to resort to using runes of the pirate in order to pretend to do damage. Also, if staff was so effective then it would actually be used in top PvP!

Erasmus.1624:

doesn’t make anyone press 1 or 2 differently

At this point I must indulge into quoting an over-used adage: different is not necessarily better.
I am going to say this for the third time now: no one cares if we change a lot of the ele or little of the ele, we care about changes that make sense. Hopefully we can find a lot of changes that make sense, but each change does not have to be huge in itself.

Erasmus.1624:

anet has slid the game down into a skill ravine since mid 2011.

Wonderful. Can we talk about the future prospects of the ele? Or can we at least talk about a period of time when the game was actually released?

I need to add this:

if you’ve never dealt burst damage with a staff or think that it’s impossible, you have no idea what you are actually doing.

Just because you can’t burst with a staff ele yourself doesn’t mean that it’s not possible.

On the old leaderboards I was ranked about as high as you were in team queue, with 7 times more matches played than you. Sunshine appears to be ranked higher than you with even more matches played than me. In solo queue Sunshine and I were ranked in the top 50 while you never even entered to the top 1000.
I have never encountered Sunshine, and I dislike using arguments of authority, but seriously you should stop saying that we are unable to do this or that and that we do not know what we are doing in game.

The suggestions proposed by Sunshine respond to problems that have been identified by the community for a long time. We may or may not agree with the specifics of the details, but the changes are proposed with a sensible perspective. You may discuss the details and the perspective, but please do this constructively.

It is not constructive to say something like “all you do is increase the cast times and the projectile speed” while Sunshine deliberately states that cast times and projectile speed are exactly what he thinks should be improved. Thank you for describing what Sunshine already stated clearly in his paragraphs explaining his perspective! And anyway, his suggestions achieve much more than you think.

Is it possible for us to get a red post on this please

Water Staff 1, instead heal in target area, heal around you.
Conjure Frost Bow 1, instead heal in target area, heal around you.
Fire Scepter 1, instead target, deal dmg around you and make it multiple foes.
Ring of Fire, instead fire field on the ground, fire field moving while around you.
Shatterstone, instead one at the target area, three fields at once in row with different explode’ time.

Don’t stop sharing your ideas in that topic, keep it bumped.