Guild Wars 2

Don’t try to change the subject … we are talking about eles and their presumed need to have a greater life pool, not about me or the professions i’m playing (also because you can’t know anything about it).
My point is: they do not need more HP because they already can have more than everyone else in the game.

Daendur.2357:

Don’t try to change the subject … we are talking about eles and their presumed need to have a greater life pool, not about me or the professions i’m playing (also because you can’t know anything about it).
My point is: they do not need more HP because they already can have more than everyone else in the game.

You’ve missed the point entirely.

Elementalists trait, gear, and build for insane amounts of defenses… you know who else does? Guardians! there is a reason these two classes almost exclusively build this way and its because of their low HP levels in ratio to the insane amounts of damage being done by everyone in this game. (not just thieves) the variable health and armor system along with very high TTK ratios and a stagnant PVP system has pushed most classes into roles. Builds that nearly everyone in that class uses because they are so effective. By removing those constraints and addressing the TTK (burst) You only create more options for the classes.

Lokki.1092:

Elementalists trait, gear, and build for insane amounts of defenses… [cut]

keeping the best mobility and decent (aoe) damage. gg

actually i like it the way it is, yes our hp is low, but we have amazing health restoration skills, the thing that needs to change is that we are being forced to spec this way

Daendur.2357:

Lokki.1092:

Elementalists trait, gear, and build for insane amounts of defenses… [cut]

keeping the best mobility and decent (aoe) damage. gg

you are still missing the point. Its not about nerfing or buffing anyone its about making all classes have the ability to have more viable specs. You are so stuck on your hate of elementalists you cant see the benefit ideas like this would be for the game as a whole.

Daendur.2357:

Traxx.6358:

Im sure it does, thats why I came across this idea.

And you are terribly wrong:
precision 1856 (916+940) = +920 hp (from 14045 to 14965)

@ other ppl:

1. i did not post that video as proof eles are OP, i posted it because someone said: “what else can i do instead of d/d ?! it is the only viable build” … and obviously it isn’t.

2. they may be tPvP in WvW … who cares?

3. 5 ppl with half brain and blablabla would have broken… but they didn’t and you can’t say “screenshot or it didn’t happen” ’cause there is the video.

:D

Sry I quoted wrong person. Yes 5 % is calculated from precision shown in hero panel.

What’s all this complaining about elementalist being OP? Rich coming from a thief.

Lokki.1092:

you are still missing the point. Its not about nerfing or buffing anyone its about making all classes have the ability to have more viable specs. You are so stuck on your hate of elementalists you cant see the benefit ideas like this would be for the game as a whole.

Explain me how giving elementalists a greater HP pool will give them more viable specs …

Moreover eles share the lowest HP pool with thieves and guardians and as Magische Boek said they have amazing health restoration.

MORE base hp = LESS water traits.
LESS water traits = LESS amazing health restoration.
LESS health restoration = FEWER bunkers.
FEWER bunkers = FEWER complainers.

Regeneration and boons are the lifeblood of an Elementalist, our class mechanic doesn’t grant innate defensive mechanism’s like stealth does for thieves or aegis, heavy armour and arguably better health regen does for guardians.

We trait heavily into water for reasons other than Aura share and Cantrip cooldowns, by increasing our base hp you’re adding a buffer allowing us to explore deeper than 10 points into one of our dps trait lines without dying to a few hits. As explained to you before the strength of our 0/10/0/30/30 builds are the synergies between the traits as well as the +300 vitality and +300 healing power from the water line.

MarzAttakz.9608:

MORE base hp = LESS water traits.
LESS water traits = LESS amazing health restoration.
LESS health restoration = FEWER bunkers.
FEWER bunkers = FEWER complainers.

Regeneration and boons are the lifeblood of an Elementalist, our class mechanic doesn’t grant innate defensive mechanism’s like stealth does for thieves or aegis, heavy armour and arguably better health regen does for guardians.

We trait heavily into water for reasons other than Aura share and Cantrip cooldowns, by increasing our base hp you’re adding a buffer allowing us to explore deeper than 10 points into one of our dps trait lines without dying to a few hits. As explained to you before the strength of our 0/10/0/30/30 builds are the synergies between the traits as well as the +300 vitality and +300 healing power from the water line.

Just point them back at the OP and read it and understand it before commenting.

You can lead a horse to water but can’t make one drink it :P

MORE base hp = MORE problems to kill a bunker ele
MORE problems to kill a bunker ele = MORE fotm bunker eles
MORE fotm bunker eles = LESS skill needed and MORE complainers

Dude listen, I get what you’re saying above but what Arheundel was saying wasn’t just an across the board HP increase, what he was saying was that by increasing the base HP and reducing the effectiveness of bunker traits you’re creating a situation where bunker vs burst can be balanced more easily i.e give some here and take away some there. He’s attempting to strike a balance and change the current meta of the game, allowing Elementalists to actual build into our damage traits.

Do you honestly think we as a profession enjoy having to trait the way it is currently?

Sadly you’re blinded by your obsession with getting bunker’s nerfed and are unwilling to contribute to an open discussion amongst individuals who have played this class as a main the majority of their guild wars 2 history.

Please stop trolling and contribute something more than “No, because I said so.”

I don’t think you are forced to use that build. What I see is a fotm build, so ppl use it even if they don’t really like it or it doesn’t fit well in their playstyle just because they were told to do so, or they saw how strong it can be.
When someone post a video with some great stuff in it the first question is “what’s your build?” as if the build was actually playing and not the person.
I know the majority of people just copy/paste someone else’s build instead of trying harder to deeply know their class. Why ? Because it’s easier.
That said, if Anet will tone down d/d bunkers and boost something else you will see the majority of elementalists (copy/paste ones) complaining about the nerf while someone else works to find out another effective build. Then new build will be revealed and the copy/paste process will start again… forcing people to play a build they don’t like.
I think there isn’t just one effective build, maybe a build with a better skill/effectiveness ratio and everyone goes that way.
The fact remains that atm d/d bunker ele is OP.

Finally man, thank you for posting something sensible! I agree with 99% of what you’re saying above and I’ll even admit that the D/D bunker (0/10/0/30/30 with Clerics) is a tad too tanky (that’s the OP part) but the damage output isn’t stellar (that’s the not OP part).

But let me ask you this, does the same rationale not apply to all classes then?

Now let me state why I still play the 0/10/0/30/30 trait distribution.

a) It suits my playstyle, frontline pushes with my heavy guild mates, backline disruption, siege disruption etc. When geared in Cleric’s I don’t do enough damage to out right kill anything but I cause a psychological disruption for my enemies buying the time needed for other classes to do the larger portion of damage. In short it has the ability to survive one rotation and then get out, very similar to a dagger storm or caltrops/poison field harrassment thief, who can easily mitigate more damage and gtfo as well.

2) It can be adapted to d/d, staff, s/d and s/f without having to retrait. While not specialising into a particular role it is the essence of the class’s versatility. There is no other build that can accomplish this successfully.

3) The traits available themselves provide flexibility for solo or group play.

4) By changing out your trinkets you can shift the balance of the build without being too extreme e.g. you need more damage, remove the Cleric’s and go with Knight’s, need more burst go Berserker’s. I’m generalising here as each person has a specific preference however the crux of the what I’m saying is that by doing what I’ve stated above you’re balancing the scales and have to trade something in return for what you’re trying to accomplish.

The fulcrum of 0/10/0/30/30 is so delicate that a simple adjustment of 5 trait points dramatically changes how the class feels, you have to make tough decisions when deviating from it. From the outside you don’t know these things and I’m not blaming you for that, but please realise that the build is the result of evolutionary theory in practise, simply put: survival of the fittest.

edit: typos

Daendur.2357:

I don’t think you are forced to use that build. What I see is a fotm build, so ppl use it even if they don’t really like it or it doesn’t fit well in their playstyle just because they were told to do so, or they saw how strong it can be.
When someone post a video with some great stuff in it the first question is “what’s your build?” as if the build was actually playing and not the person.
I know the majority of people just copy/paste someone else’s build instead of trying harder to deeply know their class. Why ? Because it’s easier.
That said, if Anet will tone down d/d bunkers and boost something else you will see the majority of elementalists (copy/paste ones) complaining about the nerf while someone else works to find out another effective build. Then new build will be revealed and the copy/paste process will start again… forcing people to play a build they don’t like.
I think there isn’t just one effective build, maybe a build with a better skill/effectiveness ratio and everyone goes that way.
The fact remains that atm d/d bunker ele is OP.

If you actually played an elementalist, you’d understand what the OP is suggesting in order to deviate eles away from bunker builds.

It’s obvious in your blind rage that you picked up a fotm thief build that is not able to instagib d/d eles, and concluded this build is OP. It’s funny, competent thieves have the least trouble with d/d eles, so maybe you should take your own advice and look deeply in your class to figure out how to play against d/d eles.

Cirax.9231:

If you actually played an elementalist, you’d understand what the OP is suggesting in order to deviate eles away from bunker builds.

It’s obvious in your blind rage that you picked up a fotm thief build that is not able to instagib d/d eles, and concluded this build is OP. It’s funny, competent thieves have the least trouble with d/d eles, so maybe you should take your own advice and look deeply in your class to figure out how to play against d/d eles.

you can’t even imagine how far you are from the truth.
btw, nice trolling attempt

No worries, you’re one of many fotm thieves who don’t bother to learn the game and want free kills. Looks like we’ll be seeing you around here often!

Cirax.9231:

No worries, you’re one of many fotm thieves who don’t bother to learn the game and want free kills. Looks like we’ll be seeing you around here often!

Oh man, plzz dont feed the troll, or better say dont feed the thief? These thief will just constantly qq and the best way to do is ignore them.

It doesn’t matter whether you ignore them or not; as long as they keep getting owned by an “op” build, they will come

This thief has his name – guild – server in his signature… you? who are you?

You are insulting me just because you have no arguments but you really know nothing about me. Nice behaviour.

Let’s put all my character info in my signature. Suddenly, I’m well known and people care about me!

Provide an arguement other than saying “bunker d/d eles are op” for the 6th time, then we can have a real discussion =). Hurry before this thread is closed!

The biggest problem I have with D/D eles is the blow out mechanic. D/D eles are, for the most part, typical. RTL → Updraft → Fire for damage. I immediately use my stunbreaker when i get updrafted, to find out that it either didn’t work, or my character just stands there for 3 seconds anyways as if I were knocked down. So having a good reaction time penalizes you…..

There are some weird mechanics involved, I’ve been stun locked by RTL due to pathing, been placed behind my target instead of parallel, had updraft miss a running player (no dodge, no aegis, no blind etc).

Does your stunbreaker prevent blow out specifically or does it only remove the usual suspects?

Binary Rain.4869:

The biggest problem I have with D/D eles is the blow out mechanic. D/D eles are, for the most part, typical. RTL -> Updraft -> Fire for damage. I immediately use my stunbreaker when i get updrafted, to find out that it either didn’t work, or my character just stands there for 3 seconds anyways as if I were knocked down. So having a good reaction time penalizes you…..

If you get updrafted, use the stun breaker after you’re firmly on the ground. Because of the mechanics of blowout, it doesn’t work if you use it immediately while your character is still airborne.

Cirax.9231:

Binary Rain.4869:

The biggest problem I have with D/D eles is the blow out mechanic. D/D eles are, for the most part, typical. RTL -> Updraft -> Fire for damage. I immediately use my stunbreaker when i get updrafted, to find out that it either didn’t work, or my character just stands there for 3 seconds anyways as if I were knocked down. So having a good reaction time penalizes you…..

If you get updrafted, use the stun breaker after you’re firmly on the ground. Because of the mechanics of blowout, it doesn’t work if you use it immediately while your character is still airborne.

Yes….but by then it is half way over, since you character seems to normally bounce off the ground the first time. I really don’t like the fact where I have to sit there for about 1.5 seconds doing nothing, it is worse than being stunned, because you can break a stun.

Daendur.2357:

Explain me how giving elementalists a greater HP pool will give them more viable specs …

Gladly friend.

Guardians Elementalist and Thieves have the best health restoration abilities and the best general survivability skills over all. As is such they all received the lowest HP levels, as a means to balance the HP. This was a mistake and a blatant deviation from Anets Idea of All classes being able to do everything well, just differently.

As a result the classes have been drawn into class wide roles in PvP because of those deviations from ANet’s core philosophy.

2 examples are Elementalist all going bunker because of their vast levels of squishyness, and their ability to greatly regenerate their Health pools coupled with Ele severe lack of burst without which elementalist cannot reliably take down targets in short fights. Then there are Warriors nearly all going DPS because their high armor and high health pool allow it, and the fact that those are just buffers without a great way to replenish their health They cannot draw out a fight well no matter how much they try.

All the classes but Mesmer and Thief fall into these roles And to a lesser degree so do Mesmer and thief, though because their primary defensive skills (PvP) are not based around hard coded mechanics but rather player skill they skirt by a little. (IE Ele heal will heal for X amount in every situation, guardian toughness will reduce damage by X amount every single time. while using stealth is 100% dependent on your skill and the skill of your opponent) This is why guardians are also built for bunker just like Elementalist.

the problem with this is a lot of Elementalists want to play glass cannons. they game design just isn’t very conducive to that play style. Just like a lot of Warriors want to be bunkers. This goes for other classes as well.

The idea behind increasing the HP of guardians elementalists and thieves (OP left them out) And IMHO increasing everyone to the same level of armor is that there is no hardcoded inadequacies (<-bad) between the classes. With this done ANet could further tweek the traits to provide the dynamic gameplay we all want.and give us traited inadequacies. (<- good)

Every single class has a 5 trait trees and they are generally split up as so,

Sustained damage
Burst damage
Defensive
Recovery
General use

The point of the matter is that every class should be able to spend all their points into defensive / recovery trees and be just as adept at it as any other class. just utilizing the skills differently. This would mean that every class you met in combat would be a surprise to you in how they played. Be honest with yourself how many different builds have you seen per class in tPvP? All Warriors, thieves, Elementalists, Mesmers, Rangers… everyone is running the same basic builds Yes there may be slight variations here and there, but weather 0/10/10/20/30 0/10/0/30/30 or 10/10/0/30/20 or any other combination it’s still a bunker elementalist! By putting classes back where they were instead of kneejerk nerfs and buffs Anet can rework the system properly and make every class spec equal to every other classes identical spec (in numbers)

See if everyone has base 1500 armor and 15000 health and putting points into your trees carried more weight (lets say triple what they are now) And base stats and abilities were also similarly reduced, then spec would matter more than class. If a warrior know that traiting for all damage made him squishy and a quick kill for every other DPS they would be more cautious to it. If bunker Ele’s were not more powerful than any other bunker and also did very little damage, they would rethink their specs. Soon people build what they want and you can have a fight with a glass cannon ele and a bunker Necro Vs a bunker Mesmer and a support thief. That would be great!

The last part that needs to be addressed is the current 2 combat type system. We currently have Burst VS Bunker we are missing a third variant which would balance everything. We should have a basic design system of Bunker>Burst>Control>bunker. Control skills and specs being built into the general tree. players would balance themselves with such a system because should any one variant become too common the variant that is more powerful than it will be played more. This is a basic idea in multiplayer VS games from TCG’s to FPS and it boggles my mind that Anet left it out especially since GW1 did it so well.

You are stuck on. “Don’t buff ele’s they are too powerful” when really it’s about fixing the game and the class as a whole. While It effects everyone I feel that Thieves guardians and Ele’s see it the most because they are the most affected by the base stat inequality.

That’s why fixing the HP disparity is a step in the right direction.

Ok….1 other problem I have with the D/D ele is the RTL skill. I assume it is not affected by conditions like cripple or chill. If traited it can be 12s, or 15s untraited, a 1,200 range dash….. That I feel is OP.

Binary Rain.4869:

Yes….but by then it is half way over, since you character seems to normally bounce off the ground the first time. I really don’t like the fact where I have to sit there for about 1.5 seconds doing nothing, it is worse than being stunned, because you can break a stun.

Agreed – it is a bit annoying to be forced to wait out your character flying around before stun breaking. Thankfully not many classes have access to launch skills. If they do, it’s on a high cooldown.

And thanks Lokki for the well-written explanation on the OP’s discussion.

I would tend to agree that Ele’s need more HP, but my opinion isn’t worth much seeing as how I haven’t got my Ele past 25. I don’t know if things get better. All I know is that unless I’m using a staff I can’t take 2 or 3 mobs without dying. Yes I dodge, yes I’m always strafing, usually behind the enemy. No, the healing doesn’t make up for the low health (not yet at least, for me), seeing as I get 3 shotted anyways leaving no time to switch to water AND use a 1s cast heal

I should also say that I feel going deeper in a trait tree should yield more returns. for example (I used triple in my last post so I’m sticking with those numbers for the moment)

+10 to XYZ stat for every point up to 10
+30 to XYZ stat for every point from 11-20
+50 to XYZ stat for every point from 21-30

This would further solidify the idea of spec forced roles. It’s still a 900 point bonus the same as if it were just +30 per level but now if a character wants to play a jack of all trades they can. but will be no where near the damage, or defense of a character that went a pure route. Since taking that last tier is worth more than the first two combined. Nothing wrong with Jack of all trade classes/specs. Just gotta make sure they are also master of none.

I think that would force any class into 30/30/10 specs…

pmnt.4067:

I think that would force any class into 30/30/10 specs…

I agree it would discourage splash builds, (10/10/10 and so on) but 20 /20/30 or 20/20/20/10 would be still quite effective. As an Ele you should know that stats are not everything. We forgo 100-300 in stats already to jump into a tree that gives none at all something that not all classes deal with and many in fact do not. The Idea that 300 extra vitality may be better than 500 extra power. Or Toughness VS healing is not something new to people. Bring up healing vs toughness vs vitality and you will spawn a stat war in the forums. Because there is no universal 500 Xstat > 300 Ystat because there are too many variables at numbers that close dealing with gear and utilities. Sometimes the actual traits you can get based on spec are easily worth a hit to stats and the fact that gear still plays a huge role in stat allocation means that gaining 300 in one stat and a particular trait you want, may be a lot more beneficial to a spec than just a flat 500 and a trait you get because you are there.

The idea of course is that if you are going to have good (not great) defenses, healing and damage with a splash of burst. you should be a bit behind the guy who has focused more. Of course though numbers can always be tweaked and should be based on feedback. I was using those numbers in particular as an example.

But I think we are getting a little off topic with that.

I kinda like the approach you’re taking though.

livestream:

Q: Do you find any profession to be out of balance like Ele bunker, roamer, thief one shot combo, mesmer portal?
Ele bunker is really strong, on our watchlist
Mesmer portal is giving us problems –giving that tool onto other classes

’nuff said. lol

Daendur.2357:

livestream:

Q: Do you find any profession to be out of balance like Ele bunker, roamer, thief one shot combo, mesmer portal?
Ele bunker is really strong, on our watchlist
Mesmer portal is giving us problems –giving that tool onto other classes

’nuff said. lol

Still don’t understand the point of the topic

By creating this thread and posting in it, we already acknowledge that the ele bunker build is a bit too strong.

Ya AOE nerf right? SO it is time to switch to Thief and make it ThiefWar, Since A net never think that Thief 3 button 15k damage is OP but Bunker Ele is.

Joe.1394:

Ya AOE nerf right? SO it is time to switch to Thief and make it ThiefWar, Since A net never think that Thief 3 button 15k damage is OP but Bunker Ele is.

Maybe because thieves, to do their 15k damage combo, have to spec glasscannon and become squishy as hell while d/d bunker eles, as i said many times have:
the best mobility, great survivability, and a good (also aoe) damage, obtained through very powerful conditions (burning does a good damage even without a condition build) and direct damage.
As if that were not enough they have great CC (stun – knockdown – chill).
So to go back in topic I think that they do not need a larger HP pool, unless something is ripped away.

Daendur.2357:

Joe.1394:

Ya AOE nerf right? SO it is time to switch to Thief and make it ThiefWar, Since A net never think that Thief 3 button 15k damage is OP but Bunker Ele is.

Maybe because thieves, to do their 15k damage combo, have to spec glasscannon and become squishy as hell while d/d bunker eles, as i said many times have:
the best mobility, great survivability, and a good (also aoe) damage, obtained through very powerful conditions (burning does a good damage even without a condition build) and direct damage.
As if that were not enough they have great CC (stun – knockdown – chill).
So to go back in topic I think that they do not need a larger HP pool, unless something is ripped away.

Maybe because elementalist, to have their high survivability, have to spec bunker and do extremely low DPS.

Daendur.2357:

Joe.1394:

Ya AOE nerf right? SO it is time to switch to Thief and make it ThiefWar, Since A net never think that Thief 3 button 15k damage is OP but Bunker Ele is.

Maybe because thieves, to do their 15k damage combo, have to spec glasscannon and become squishy as hell while d/d bunker eles, as i said many times have:
the best mobility, great survivability, and a good (also aoe) damage, obtained through very powerful conditions (burning does a good damage even without a condition build) and direct damage.
As if that were not enough they have great CC (stun – knockdown – chill).
So to go back in topic I think that they do not need a larger HP pool, unless something is ripped away.

I really lazy to feed you so, i simply copy and paste this to you:
Xeph.4513:
Before I say anything I would just like to say that I have played thief and I understand what the class is capable of doing.
A lot of people in this post don’t seem to realise that the issue isn’t only the damage, but the fact that thieves can come in at any point in the fight and insta gib / stomp someone before the rest of the team can react and that is really bad game design and not really enjoyable for players on the receiving end.
There is little you can do to stop a thief from one shoting a player who is already engaged in combat with another player and than getting insta stomped by quickness.
What people fail to understand is it makes little to no difference how much toughness the thief has, if you can’t hit him in the first place or the fact that he can disengage most fights at will.
If you wish to compare thief to other glass canons your going to find that they are far more effective, because they are harder to kill, harder to stomp, harder to keep track of and they deal a lot more damage than other glass canons; so overall they are more effective than any other glass canon build in every single way.
I do agree that thief burst needs to be toned down, or made in a way that it is possible to react to, because atm this game is a lot less fun not only for the hardcore players but also the casual who wants to log on for a few hours and have fun with game, instead of getting insta killed over and over.
Simply said, it makes me laugh that people try and argue the fact thats its okay to have an “Insta kill” ability because you have a window of 0.3 seconds to react to it.
Insta kill should not exist in any video game and detracts from the fun of the game, hopefully Arena net address this issue at the nearest time frame possible.

Go to state your point in this thread, i am done with any thief player in this room.

Does anyone consider using Power Vit Tough Gear from dungeons and Orr Temple karma vendors? No? I rest my case.

I have 1kittenp with the right traits spent and the PVT gear. Max Wvw bonuses its close to 18k. Second highest HP compared to Necro.

Yumiko Ishida.3769:

Does anyone consider using Power Vit Tough Gear from dungeons and Orr Temple karma vendors? No? I rest my case.

I have 1kittenp with the right traits spent and the PVT gear. Max Wvw bonuses its close to 18k. Second highest HP compared to Necro.

Yeah… a necro’s (and warrior’s) base hp. Any class can easily get the same gear setup as you have to have higher hp and armor. And let me guess… 30 water and 20(30) arcane? Other classes don’t have to gear and trait specifically to achieve roughly the same level of tankiness and instead spec for dps, which is the point of this thread. Heck they don’t even need to be as tanky with other forms of damage mitigation. This is more of a problem in pvp where the max total stats is lower, and there are limited possibilities of stat distribution. This is almost a non-issue in pve.

Yumiko Ishida.3769:

Does anyone consider using Power Vit Tough Gear from dungeons and Orr Temple karma vendors? No? I rest my case.

Serious blanket statement there, anyone who has spent time on the receiving end of heavy damage gears with p/v/t – before “The Build” was even made publicly available.