Elementalist needs a dedicated developer

Elementalist needs a dedicated developer

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Posted by: Supreme.3164

Supreme.3164

There is no other solution for real

This class needs a developer that fully understand:

1) The intricacies of the class
2) The weaknesses and strengths
3) The interaction with other professions

Whoever is in charge of ele development has showed none of the points above.
I see no passion or love for the profession with the changes..and the majority of changes make very little sense in the end.

There is no background behind the changes, just random buffs for the sake of buffing and this is not the case with other professions, where every change has a specific purpose, typically the creation of new builds.

Right now ele is : slow, extremely fragile and low dmg (versus anything outside pve raids where the AI controlled pet stands still to eat all dmg and the ele is free to go full glass with zero defense)

Will anything ever be done to rectify the situation?

(edited by Supreme.3164)

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Posted by: Ghotistyx.6942

Ghotistyx.6942

Balance is done by a team.
They have the information to show how it interacts with all the other professions
They actually do use that info to make balance changes
Just because you think something is wrong doesn’t mean it actually is.

Fishsticks

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Posted by: Kyon.9735

Kyon.9735

Balance is done by a team.
They have the information to show how it interacts with all the other professions
They actually do use that info to make balance changes
Just because you think something is wrong doesn’t mean it actually is.

So are Elementalists anywhere near that “Balanced” Status?

The fact is: No. So let us return this right back at you.
Just because you think something is wrong doesn’t mean it actually is.

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Posted by: soulknight.9620

soulknight.9620

Balance is done by a team.
They have the information to show how it interacts with all the other professions
They actually do use that info to make balance changes
Just because you think something is wrong doesn’t mean it actually is.

People see the results of their work. And the results are not positive. Elementalists are underperforming in a lot of aspects of the game. We have a lot of niche skills that are not being used almost by everyone, sigils (except strom), conjures, signets (except fire), arcana skills (except arcane shield). Eles have most useless ults in game, elemental does nearly 0 dmg, and dies to a random aoe (except earth one), FGS only used as a movement skill (ffs on a 2 min cd), tornado is a HUGE “KILL ME” sign over eles head, cause you are so easy to being killed. Rebound is clearly underperformes 3k heals on a killing blow for 4 sec? For an ult? On a glasscanon class? Bad design.

Elementalists need a rework on their class. Not minor one, but a major one. We need scepter to be viable choice. We need d/d to actually work instead of being suicide weapon. We need rebalanced utilities. The only option there was for a non healbot ele back there was cele amulet, you know why? Because our ratios on our skills are so low, that we actually require MORE stats to be on the level of other classes.

As i said, i will continue to defend my opinion over and over again until we get something done to elementalists (rework for example) or the developer, that is responsible for balancing eles openly (via twitch) shows HOW ele is meant to be played in the current state of the game (wvw, spvp, pve etc). Prove us that elementalists are ok.

As for OP, i fully agree with his opinion. Something must be done.

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Posted by: Wolfric.9380

Wolfric.9380

I always said it feels like there is low time invested in working on ele. It does not need a redisign, it needs someone who tweaks all skills.It´s alot and of course it must be done carfuly not to get out of hand somewhere. So it needs ad deicated dev wo actually takes time to do it and then it´s implemented …

(edited by Wolfric.9380)

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

Balance is done by a team.
They have the information to show how it interacts with all the other professions
They actually do use that info to make balance changes
Just because you think something is wrong doesn’t mean it actually is.

Having the facts and having the skill to act on them are different things. Ultimately that skill is measured by the results – and the results are obvious at the moment. incidentally the decision to remove the cleric without balancing or impact analysis around this removal is a hack, especially when the whole Ele spvp community could have predicted the outcome.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

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Posted by: Fashion Mage.3712

Fashion Mage.3712

Agreed, and I’d say guardians could use a new dev too, if you catch my drift~

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Posted by: Supz.9836

Supz.9836

Couldn’t agree more OP, I main an ele and it has just been nerf after nerf for some time now and as someone who primarily likes to sPvP the class (and the game) is honestly no longer much fun.

I also think Tempest was a really poorly designed elite spec that could’ve been done alot better.

I hope they at least make arcane dagger/dagger ele viable again, I am willing to sacrifice my elite spec if our old school arcane dagger/dagger builds work again

(edited by Supz.9836)

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Posted by: bearshaman.3421

bearshaman.3421

Congrats. Now you feel like everyone else does. I’ve seen this thread on pretty much every profession forum.

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

Congrats. Now you feel like everyone else does. I’ve seen this thread on pretty much every profession forum.

great insight on topic.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

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Posted by: Lalainnia.3598

Lalainnia.3598

The only thing ele is prob undrperforming in is spvp and even there they’re still boss support with menders and solider runes plus shout skills only honest difference is they can’t face tank as hard. I’m personally having better results with scepter now over dagger. As for dps fresh air scepter seems like the only realistic choice and it is very squsihy but it’s damage output is amazing. Heck even staff dps ele is absurd aoe damage on a point with team support on top of decent escapes with fire 4 air 4 and earth 4 and 5. Outside of spvp ele is fine in wvw and still top tier in pve content.

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

yup they are underperforming in spvp, its not about tanking its about facing up to EQUALLY skilled players 1 v 1, you can’t do it, you don’t have the sustain.

So, cant bunker, cant 1v1, cant go pure heal without becoming a liability to your team, cant burst -attacks too slow apart from dagger – which takes you back to point above.

as for staff, AOE impresses those that likes big numbers, but it focuses no-one down, and that’s what wins spvp not some generalized background dps.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

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Posted by: soulknight.9620

soulknight.9620

Scepter dmg output is niche, try playing ANY other class, you WILL get more dmg, more survivability, more mobility, more utility.
Staff has 0 reliable dps, 0 reliable defensive abilities. Escapes with air 4? Are you from this planet? ANY other profession except guardian can catch you easily even when using air 4. What are you talking about? Play some ranked and stop writing nonsense.
Sure when you get scrub team as an enemy you can roll them at any build, but for gods sake try doing anything usefull agains equals.
Anyone that thinks that ele is ok in spvp or that the currents state of ele is better then it was should see a doctor.

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Posted by: Lalainnia.3598

Lalainnia.3598

Disagree with menders support eles not being able to stand 1v1 vs equally skilled players the only class they will have 100% trouble with and die after using all cds and utility are prob thieves and revs because they have insane sticking power and amazing burst with high AA pressure as for staff dps its why I mentioned team fights and it being another option if someone is bored of scepter fresh air laying down massive aoe damage on a point aka the thing ppl try to cap can be devastating while pushing others off the point so your more focused single target attacks can punish a target in a bad postioned force by the on point aoe.

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Posted by: Lalainnia.3598

Lalainnia.3598

As for soulknight scepter damage has 1 move for it’s damage that can be difficult to hit without cc and that’s dragontooth its why it’s most commonly comboed with air 5s knockdown. as for staff not sure where you come up with it having 0 reliable dps, 0 reliable defensive. as for air 4 that’s one among the many I listed you should reading it removes immoblize and cripple while applying swiftness those non damaging condis are pretty effective methods for locking down ppl when hard cc isn’t available. I would personally never use a staff build in a ranked match but it’s still an option for something in unranked spvp for dps. Outside of fun builds menders ele support with solider runes works perfectly fine and can hold it’s own simply not in it’s defining op status of the past.

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

‘fun build’ in non-ranked is another way of saying inferior but its ok because of something or another.

lets go through it:

-1v1 – you will be focused down, you cant mitigate beyond a few seconds.

-Taking a point – nope, you cant go 1v1 against an equally skilled player. (lack of toughness, lack of sustained targeted dps, low hp)

- Bunkering point – nope.

standing at the edge of the fight and hoping no-one will move so you can get your 2 medium sized avoidable hits in while no-one focuses you – possible, desirable for a team lol?

AOE in PVP – look at arena based PVP historically in every mmorpg out there and understand why its not a thing.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

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Posted by: Lalainnia.3598

Lalainnia.3598

‘fun build’ in non-ranked is another way of saying inferior but its ok because of something or another.

lets go through it:

-1v1 – you will be focused down, you cant mitigate beyond a few seconds.

-Taking a point – nope, you cant go 1v1 against an equally skilled player. (lack of toughness, lack of sustained targeted dps, low hp)

- Bunkering point – nope.

standing at the edge of the fight and hoping no-one will move so you can get your 2 medium sized avoidable hits in while no-one focuses you – possible, desirable for a team lol?

AOE in PVP – look at arena based PVP historically in every mmorpg out there and understand why its not a thing.

If anyone on a support built class is getting focused down in a few second in any spvp game it most likely means your teammates are horrible just how 3+ ppl can focus you down as a target 3+ ppl can peel with cc for you.

Yes you truly can go 1v1 vs anything imo other than a thief or rev I never once mentioned being able to kill them but anything outside of those 2 class save mistakes and such will not be able to kill you in a 1v1 setting on point.

For some reason i think you think of bunkering as being able to hold a point vs 3+ ppl for an extended period of time something like 1min or no class is really going to be able to do that unless they out play those said 3 ppl or the 3 ppl are simply not as good.

Aoe in all PVP historically is a thing. every class in this game uses aoe in spvp except for possiblely support rangers running staff+sword/dagger. Scrappers elixir gun 4, aoe hammer 5 aoe, multiple lighting field aoe. Necros/reapers marks all aoe scepter 2 aoe. DH traps aoe, symbols aoe, Revs facet of elements aoe, Thief SB 4 aoe, Warrior burst skills on longbow aoe. Chrono with shield 5 or staff 5 and gravity well. I used those examples because they’re all specifically telegraphed aoe skills in most of the more used meta builds so aoe in arena type pvp is indeed a thing.

Don’t get me wrong tho by no means was I saying staff ele is the best new hot thing out there simply stating it’s something quite fun to play in team fights and lay down devastating aoe on point where bruiser like classes sit such as warriors scrapper dh and revs.

My whole main point is that while eles saw a decent sized nerf this recent patch they suddenly aren’t in the worthless tier like so many feel.

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Posted by: soulknight.9620

soulknight.9620

There is a difference between a “fun” build and a viable competetive build. You can beat a bad player with every weapon set, but it doesnt make eles competetive and viable.
You are delusional. Record a video of 1 v 1 someone equaly skilled on a point. No proof – stop saying absurd theoricrafting.
If you are shot down in a few secs it doesnt mean you team is bad, it means YOU cannot mitigate damage.
kitten are you really that delusional? Yes necros aoe is a thing, yes dh aoe is a thing, and so on, but eles aoe is NOT a thing because it is not reliable, any half decent person would go out of lava font and meteor shover WITHOUT taking any damage, thats how skills work, they are slow and easy dodgeable (same goes for earth 2, water 2).
Are you seriously? “arent in the worthless tier”? We are!
Stop this nonsense. Eles are bad, are the worst there is atm. A lot of pro players cant make ele work on a decent level, a lot of average players are dumping eles and rerolling different classes. Even the ones that mained eles for years ARE thinking of dumping their eles, cause it is just unplayable in spvp.
Your arguments sound like “oh i can do something subpar with my ele and thats why its not useless, well not totally”. Prove that ele is ok via video of your gameplay. Then will resume the discussion.

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Posted by: Alekt.5803

Alekt.5803

Some of the changes they did were in the right direction. Some changes are nearly undocumented too. The issue were that they gave very strong nerfs, and half-measure compensation buffs.

Glyph of Elemental Harmony has been buffed. A very good buff. But, half-measure incoming… They nerfed Inscription! The Regeneration it gave is no longer a double proc, it’s a single, combined regeneration of 20 seconds instead of 2x 10 seconds. So, the very, very old trick of applying 2 regen with the skill for 2 condition clear with Cleansing Water is gone.

Another example of bad compensation buff. With Elemental Bastion butchered for non healing power elementalist (read Non-Meta Elementalists). Imbued Melody comes has a possible replacement. That’s why the active portion works with other weapons. But, not the 20% boon duration that could give a reasonable protection uptime for a non-meta elementalist.

To say the truth, I think the Devs or whoever was in charge of the balance were worried that with a real compensation buff, some of us could squeeze a build that could be viable. Let’s be real; when Elemental Bastion base heal is nerfed, it’s a whole and complete blanket nerf for the class, and I am ready to say that it was actually the Non-Meta DPS Tempest that got the largest hit this patch.

Alerie Despins

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Posted by: Supreme.3164

Supreme.3164

I think the Devs or whoever was in charge of the balance were worried that with a real compensation buff, some of us could squeeze a build that could be viable

This cannot be explained enough and this is nothing the Ele community must become aware of

We really have devs in charge with a strong bias against eles, there is not much we can do other than make this a public knowledge

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Posted by: Ghotistyx.6942

Ghotistyx.6942

This cannot be explained enough and this is nothing the Ele community must become aware of

We really have devs in charge with a strong bias against eles, there is not much we can do other than make this a public knowledge

What… rumors and emotionally charged accusations?

Fishsticks

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Posted by: Supreme.3164

Supreme.3164

This cannot be explained enough and this is nothing the Ele community must become aware of

We really have devs in charge with a strong bias against eles, there is not much we can do other than make this a public knowledge

What… rumors and emotionally charged accusations?

All this trolling makes you accomplished? Do you feel realized?…good for you, it’s equally good to see that people playing eles are more concerned with real issues than be bothered to go trolling on other profession forums…after all each class archetype will always attract a specific type of person…still we’re already tired of your trolling

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Posted by: Memories Lost.7634

Memories Lost.7634

I’m just going to leave this here to remind everyone that the lead behind tempest only killed Chieftain thanks to dev hacks. https://youtu.be/HAbrXuZGIts?t=40m18s

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Posted by: Ghotistyx.6942

Ghotistyx.6942

I don’t like it, so it must be trolling

Fishsticks

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

“If anyone on a support built class is getting focused down in a few second in any spvp game it most likely means your teammates are horrible just how 3+ ppl can focus you down as a target 3+ ppl can peel with cc for you.”

no, it means you are not self sufficient, the team is not meant to support the support player, if they are doing that then the opportunity cost of that support build is horrific.

“Yes you truly can go 1v1 vs anything imo other than a thief or rev I never once mentioned being able to kill them but anything outside of those 2 class save mistakes and such will not be able to kill you in a 1v1 setting on point.”

as i said against an equally skilled player you cannot.

“For some reason i think you think of bunkering as being able to hold a point vs 3+ ppl for an extended period of time something like 1min or no class is really going to be able to do that unless they out play those said 3 ppl or the 3 ppl are simply not as good.”

No idea what that reason is. Bunkering means holding a point defensibly 1v1 minimum.

“My whole main point is that while eles saw a decent sized nerf this recent patch they suddenly aren’t in the worthless tier like so many feel.”

In spvp playing at a disadvantage makes it worthless (imo at least) I have no desire to try and fight against equally skilled players with inherint disadvantages, hoping my opopent is not aware of these weaknesses. Running away is not good good content.

The proof is in the pudding, and i suspect we are already seeing a drop in eles in competitive teams, which is for a reason, that’s a trend and not anecdotal evidence.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

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Posted by: bearshaman.3421

bearshaman.3421

Congrats. Now you feel like everyone else does. I’ve seen this thread on pretty much every profession forum.

great insight on topic.

I see this as a pointless topic. They don’t have devs for specific professions, they have a team. We aren’t being singled out in this. We aren’t “being forgotten”. There is a larger picture they are dealing with. Enjoy the game or don’t, make useful criticisms or don’t, but threads like this are pointless.

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

Congrats. Now you feel like everyone else does. I’ve seen this thread on pretty much every profession forum.

great insight on topic.

I see this as a pointless topic. They don’t have devs for specific professions, they have a team. We aren’t being singled out in this. We aren’t “being forgotten”. There is a larger picture they are dealing with. Enjoy the game or don’t, make useful criticisms or don’t, but threads like this are pointless.

Do you post in every thread that you think is pointless with a pointless comment to say its pointless?

The thread boils down to – bad decision made by pvp team with no impact analysis or understanding of class, so therefore the discussion about the need for a developer or designer with in depth knowledge is relevant. Apathy solves nothing.

case in point, dagger is melee, melee requires sustained damage mitigation, this was removed with no replacement. An expert in the class would know this.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

(edited by vesica tempestas.1563)

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Posted by: Ghotistyx.6942

Ghotistyx.6942

…this was removed with no replacement.

Pro-tip: Not everything needs compensation

Fishsticks

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

lol at ‘pro-tip’ its like i’m back in the noughties. Im assuming with this nugget that you don’t think melee with dagger is an issue against an equally skilled player.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

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Posted by: zinkz.7045

zinkz.7045

The thread boils down to…

This thread boils down to a load of ignorance from people who apparently have no clue about this game and think ele is somehow hard done by, which is laughable when you look at the last 4 years across 3 game modes, ele is probably the most overprivileged class in the game, it has been permanently good (much of the time the best) class for PvE, in WvW it has been perma meta and in PvP it has veered between UP and OP, overall across the game it has fared better than every other class except maybe guard.

Compare that to say necros in PvE who were the worst class for pretty much 3 years, or WvW where rangers/engy/thief/mes are basically between surplus to requirements or had 1 or 2 niche spots on a raid for 4 years, or even PvP where lots of classes have experienced months out the meta just like ele, some a lot longer than ele like ranger between spirit ranger nerf and HoT launch.

Oh yes, and this crying about bad skills like conjures, etc, really how ignorant do you have to be to not know that is the case for nearly every class, you think spirit weapons are good, gadgets, etc.

People crying about how hard done by ele is or how the special snowflake needs its own developer is just pathetic.

(edited by zinkz.7045)

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Posted by: Wolfric.9380

Wolfric.9380

Well most people who complani don´t care about PvE and want balance + diversity and this regardless how long a class was meta. Annyone who brings comments like “now it´s your time on the bench” are disliked in balance diskussions ;-).
This counts for all classes. It´s not ele specific.
The impression is that there are not enough resources invested in “Class Care”.

(edited by Wolfric.9380)

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

The thread boils down to…

This thread boils down to a load of ignorance from people who apparently have no clue about this game and think ele is somehow hard done by, which is laughable when you look at the last 4 years across 3 game modes, ele is probably the most overprivileged class in the game, it has been permanently good (much of the time the best) class for PvE, in WvW it has been perma meta and in PvP it has veered between UP and OP, overall across the game it has fared better than every other class except maybe guard.

Compare that to say necros in PvE who were the worst class for pretty much 3 years, or WvW where rangers/engy/thief/mes are basically between surplus to requirements or had 1 or 2 niche spots on a raid for 4 years, or even PvP where lots of classes have experienced months out the meta just like ele, some a lot longer than ele like ranger between spirit ranger nerf and HoT launch.

Oh yes, and this crying about bad skills like conjures, etc, really how ignorant do you have to be to not know that is the case for nearly every class, you think spirit weapons are good, gadgets, etc.

People crying about how hard done by ele is or how the special snowflake needs its own developer is just pathetic.

interesting. However this thread is about now not the past and in the elementalist forum, and has nothing to do with chips on shoulder or problems the other classes have, that’s why those classes have dedicated forums too to talk about their issues.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

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Posted by: Senario.2038

Senario.2038

Well most people who complani don´t care about PvE and want balance + diversity and this regardless how long a class was meta. Annyone who brings comments like “now it´s your time on the bench” are disliked in balance diskussions ;-).
This counts for all classes. It´s not ele specific.
The impression is that there are not enough resources invested in “Class Care”.

Would disagree because on reddit there has been two major topics within the last two weeks that was pretty much a large majority of PvE players (and a lot of PvP players as well) who did care about balance/diversity and did care about the nerfs. I’d love to see Arcane and Earth be suitable substitutes for fire traitlines in PvE but fire is too good, Arcane needs the least amount of reworks to be competitive with Fire and Earth could be set up for a condi based ele build in the future. Or just give it some damage modifiers and be done with it.

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Posted by: bearshaman.3421

bearshaman.3421

The problem with dedicated developers is that they would suffer from the same myopic viewpoint of the game that a lot of players have. A team approach prevents a lot of strife between developers, and will, in the long run, lead to a more balanced game overall imo.

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Posted by: Senario.2038

Senario.2038

The problem with dedicated developers is that they would suffer from the same myopic viewpoint of the game that a lot of players have. A team approach prevents a lot of strife between developers, and will, in the long run, lead to a more balanced game overall imo.

Except when nobody on the team understands the class → Look at engineer. It seems nobody understands the class bc patch after patch they nerf engi and they are still good in PvP and pretty bad in most PvE (you only really take them on vale guardian). They don’t know how to balance it. Same with Ele scepter lol.

In my view it is better to have 1 dedicated dev per class who really understands the strengths, weaknesses, and what is good/bad to give to the class. Karl clearly didn’t get the memo because if anything would’ve made ele OP it is more team utility and healing and tempest was intended to be all team utility and healing.

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Posted by: Wolfric.9380

Wolfric.9380

A dev can do more classes and this is indeed good. Also i don´t think the devs are totaly icompetent. I get the impression that resources are kept low.

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Posted by: soulknight.9620

soulknight.9620

A dev can do more classes and this is indeed good. Also i don´t think the devs are totaly icompetent. I get the impression that resources are kept low.

Well we are not saying they are incompetent, but the results are not good. I dont actually know what influences these balance fixes (mb they have their reasons). But hey, im an open guy, if developers think ele is in a good place atm, the least they can do is step up and communicate with the community, or making a few streams/videos showing eles strong plays/builds. But if eles are not fine in their view, then they could atleast say that they are aware of the problem and give us an estimate time on the fixes.
What we get now is total silence as if everything is according to plan and we have nothing to worry about.

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Posted by: Ghotistyx.6942

Ghotistyx.6942

What we get now is total silence as if everything is according to plan and we have nothing to worry about.

Huh…

Fishsticks

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Posted by: zinkz.7045

zinkz.7045

interesting. However this thread is about now not the past and in the elementalist forum, and has nothing to do with chips on shoulder or problems the other classes have, that’s why those classes have dedicated forums too to talk about their issues.

Nonsense on three fronts, firstly much of the complaining is about aspects that have been there for years (just as issues for other classes have been), secondly that other classes have forums is irrelevant it is this thread making absurd claims about needing a dedicated dev or showing a massive amount of ignorance about the actual reality of the “tragic” state of ele in comparison to other classes and thirdly despite the self pitying chip on the shoulder attitude ele is still overall in a better state than several other classes, it is still extremely strong in PvE, is still wanted in WvW, and still decent in PvP – go see – https://www.reddit.com/r/gw2esports/comments/4xyipw/competitive_class_tier_list/ .

So yes, the overwhelming theme of this thread is self pitying, ignorance.

(edited by zinkz.7045)

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Posted by: Wolfric.9380

Wolfric.9380

Nice link. It feels like swaping warrior and ele spots. But basically i think it fits.

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Posted by: bearshaman.3421

bearshaman.3421

The problem with dedicated developers is that they would suffer from the same myopic viewpoint of the game that a lot of players have. A team approach prevents a lot of strife between developers, and will, in the long run, lead to a more balanced game overall imo.

Except when nobody on the team understands the class -> Look at engineer. It seems nobody understands the class bc patch after patch they nerf engi and they are still good in PvP and pretty bad in most PvE (you only really take them on vale guardian). They don’t know how to balance it. Same with Ele scepter lol.

In my view it is better to have 1 dedicated dev per class who really understands the strengths, weaknesses, and what is good/bad to give to the class. Karl clearly didn’t get the memo because if anything would’ve made ele OP it is more team utility and healing and tempest was intended to be all team utility and healing.

Engi is one of the better condi classes out there, and honestly it hasn’t been nerfed that much. scrapper got a couple things, and those really only affect pvp. I’m not sure where you are getting this idea that engi is in a bad place (maybe in pvp?).

In any case, sure, they may take a class in a direction we don’t like, but at the end of the day, it’s opinions. There is no right or wrong about class direction (look at all the screaming in the ranger forums over druid sometime), and if they go in a direction we don’t like, that doesn’t make it wrong, just undesired.

Also the problem with what you propose is: if one person handles a profession, eventually it has to be balanced against the other classes anyway, so they will end up having to confer with the others. And oh look! you’re right back to working as a team. It’s the reality of the situation. Can’t do profession development in a vacuum.

(edited by bearshaman.3421)

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Posted by: bearshaman.3421

bearshaman.3421

What we get now is total silence as if everything is according to plan and we have nothing to worry about.

This is the one complaint that might be valid. (I agree with zinkz’s post above).

I think given the sheer volume of opinions produced on the forums concerning what needs fixing/buffing/nerfing, if they started addressing every concern put out there, they’d have to hire people for each forum just to deal with the sheer volume of requests for information. I get the impression that they use a light hand when posting in the forums, but they do post (you can look at the dev tracker thread to see what they are saying and where). Also, having paid attention to what people have suggested and to what changes are made in the patches, while they don’t implement every suggested change (that would be insane), they do get ideas from what we post. They may not say anything, but they are listening. They just don’t have the staff to risk opening the floodgates.

Edit: In case you think “floodgates” is an overstatement, someone did respond to some questions on the Lore forum a while back. What occurred was a veritable tidal wave of questions, with the OP doing his best to organize them for the staff member to try to answer, and eventually he had to back off and say they would work on a better system for trying to answer those questions. The thread title is “Lore Q&A” if you want to see it, a change made after the staff member answered some questions. That was on a thread that doesn’t see the active participation that the profession forums do. It would be even worse here.

(edited by bearshaman.3421)

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Posted by: Mr Godlike.6098

Mr Godlike.6098

What we get now is total silence as if everything is according to plan and we have nothing to worry about.

This is the one complaint that might be valid. (I agree with zinkz’s post above).

I think given the sheer volume of opinions produced on the forums concerning what needs fixing/buffing/nerfing, if they started addressing every concern put out there, they’d have to hire people for each forum just to deal with the sheer volume of requests for information. I get the impression that they use a light hand when posting in the forums, but they do post (you can look at the dev tracker thread to see what they are saying and where). Also, having paid attention to what people have suggested and to what changes are made in the patches, while they don’t implement every suggested change (that would be insane), they do get ideas from what we post. They may not say anything, but they are listening. They just don’t have the staff to risk opening the floodgates.

Edit: In case you think “floodgates” is an overstatement, someone did respond to some questions on the Lore forum a while back. What occurred was a veritable tidal wave of questions, with the OP doing his best to organize them for the staff member to try to answer, and eventually he had to back off and say they would work on a better system for trying to answer those questions. The thread title is “Lore Q&A” if you want to see it, a change made after the staff member answered some questions. That was on a thread that doesn’t see the active participation that the profession forums do. It would be even worse here.

I will agree with you if you show anything that points to ,,they are listening to us" in last balance patch. If not I would say they never ever seen a post in their life’s from elementalist subforum!

Was depressed ele…now depressed druid
Kawaleria (KW)

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Posted by: bearshaman.3421

bearshaman.3421

What we get now is total silence as if everything is according to plan and we have nothing to worry about.

This is the one complaint that might be valid. (I agree with zinkz’s post above).

I think given the sheer volume of opinions produced on the forums concerning what needs fixing/buffing/nerfing, if they started addressing every concern put out there, they’d have to hire people for each forum just to deal with the sheer volume of requests for information. I get the impression that they use a light hand when posting in the forums, but they do post (you can look at the dev tracker thread to see what they are saying and where). Also, having paid attention to what people have suggested and to what changes are made in the patches, while they don’t implement every suggested change (that would be insane), they do get ideas from what we post. They may not say anything, but they are listening. They just don’t have the staff to risk opening the floodgates.

Edit: In case you think “floodgates” is an overstatement, someone did respond to some questions on the Lore forum a while back. What occurred was a veritable tidal wave of questions, with the OP doing his best to organize them for the staff member to try to answer, and eventually he had to back off and say they would work on a better system for trying to answer those questions. The thread title is “Lore Q&A” if you want to see it, a change made after the staff member answered some questions. That was on a thread that doesn’t see the active participation that the profession forums do. It would be even worse here.

I will agree with you if you show anything that points to ,,they are listening to us" in last balance patch. If not I would say they never ever seen a post in their life’s from elementalist subforum!

If you are limiting it to the ele subforum, I will have a harder time proving that, mainly cuz I stopped reading this forum for a a few months, and am too lazy to go back and read that many threads lol.

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Posted by: Senario.2038

Senario.2038

The problem with dedicated developers is that they would suffer from the same myopic viewpoint of the game that a lot of players have. A team approach prevents a lot of strife between developers, and will, in the long run, lead to a more balanced game overall imo.

Except when nobody on the team understands the class -> Look at engineer. It seems nobody understands the class bc patch after patch they nerf engi and they are still good in PvP and pretty bad in most PvE (you only really take them on vale guardian). They don’t know how to balance it. Same with Ele scepter lol.

In my view it is better to have 1 dedicated dev per class who really understands the strengths, weaknesses, and what is good/bad to give to the class. Karl clearly didn’t get the memo because if anything would’ve made ele OP it is more team utility and healing and tempest was intended to be all team utility and healing.

Engi is one of the better condi classes out there, and honestly it hasn’t been nerfed that much. scrapper got a couple things, and those really only affect pvp. I’m not sure where you are getting this idea that engi is in a bad place (maybe in pvp?).

In any case, sure, they may take a class in a direction we don’t like, but at the end of the day, it’s opinions. There is no right or wrong about class direction (look at all the screaming in the ranger forums over druid sometime), and if they go in a direction we don’t like, that doesn’t make it wrong, just undesired.

Also the problem with what you propose is: if one person handles a profession, eventually it has to be balanced against the other classes anyway, so they will end up having to confer with the others. And oh look! you’re right back to working as a team. It’s the reality of the situation. Can’t do profession development in a vacuum.

I think you’re misrepresenting my argument. My argument isn’t “Do profession development in a vacuum” My argument is that you need a person on each profession that understands the profession fully to be able to reason with the rest of the group in order to get the best outcome(best way to nerf and or buff depending on the class) for what you’re trying to go for. I never said you shouldn’t have them work with each other but when you have somebody who doesn’t understand the class at the head of the class’ balance when you come to the table of “how to nerf” 20% CDR from 33% without reducing cooldowns that weren’t a problem seems like a good idea. No Ele player would’ve thought that was a good idea and other classes’ heads would’ve thought it was ok bc they don’t understand ele and they don’t understand the distinction being made between their classes’ weapon skills and Ele attunements and the way the class plays.

By saying “Oh you’re saying ele should be balanced in a vacuum” you’re essentially ignoring any sense of detail of my post.

And on Engi – You’re uninformed if you think Engi is in a good place. They have great single target condi dps…if the enemy isn’t moving. In addition to this while they do have theoretically the highest single target it pales in comparison to what Necro offers as a condi class through Jagged Horrors, corruptions, and most importantly EPIDEMIC. Being able to double up on boons from everybody on the team on a boss with just 2 Necros is great. I personally don’t think it is imbalanced but it most certainly shows just how much being useful to the team is that Necro is more useful than Engi in almost every case for PvE regardless of DPS.

Engi is not taken on any raids except Vale Guardian where you need knockbacks. Any other boss and it is much better to simply run another Necro and double up on/manage conditions. Being “one of the better classes by the numbers” doesn’t mean they’re actually useful in a real applicable setting. If DPS was the end all be all we would just run thieves for all small/mobile targets and engi for condi. But we don’t. Doing mechanics in a raid is >>>>>>>>> most reasonable/not OP damage differences.

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Posted by: DirtyDan.4759

DirtyDan.4759

I have never used Arcane Power, Arcane blast, Signet of Earth, Signet of Water, Conjure Flame Axe and Conjure Earth Shield in actual PvE. Have been playing Ele since headstart.
My build mainly consits of
Arcane Wave
Lightning Flash (sometimes Earth Armor or Arcane Shield)
Glyph of Storms
[E]Glyph of Elementals

Rebound is simply poo. It would be a liiittle bit better if it automatically affects the 4 players with the least amount of health and actually getting a respond that you helped someone.

I would like to have little diversity in my build.

The shouts are between meh and ok. The earth one is my favorite, but very situational.
Can’t talk for raids, haven’t done them.

(edited by DirtyDan.4759)

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Posted by: bearshaman.3421

bearshaman.3421

The problem with dedicated developers is that they would suffer from the same myopic viewpoint of the game that a lot of players have. A team approach prevents a lot of strife between developers, and will, in the long run, lead to a more balanced game overall imo.

Except when nobody on the team understands the class -> Look at engineer. It seems nobody understands the class bc patch after patch they nerf engi and they are still good in PvP and pretty bad in most PvE (you only really take them on vale guardian). They don’t know how to balance it. Same with Ele scepter lol.

In my view it is better to have 1 dedicated dev per class who really understands the strengths, weaknesses, and what is good/bad to give to the class. Karl clearly didn’t get the memo because if anything would’ve made ele OP it is more team utility and healing and tempest was intended to be all team utility and healing.

Engi is one of the better condi classes out there, and honestly it hasn’t been nerfed that much. scrapper got a couple things, and those really only affect pvp. I’m not sure where you are getting this idea that engi is in a bad place (maybe in pvp?).

In any case, sure, they may take a class in a direction we don’t like, but at the end of the day, it’s opinions. There is no right or wrong about class direction (look at all the screaming in the ranger forums over druid sometime), and if they go in a direction we don’t like, that doesn’t make it wrong, just undesired.

Also the problem with what you propose is: if one person handles a profession, eventually it has to be balanced against the other classes anyway, so they will end up having to confer with the others. And oh look! you’re right back to working as a team. It’s the reality of the situation. Can’t do profession development in a vacuum.

I think you’re misrepresenting my argument. My argument isn’t “Do profession development in a vacuum” My argument is that you need a person on each profession that understands the profession fully to be able to reason with the rest of the group in order to get the best outcome(best way to nerf and or buff depending on the class) for what you’re trying to go for. I never said you shouldn’t have them work with each other but when you have somebody who doesn’t understand the class at the head of the class’ balance when you come to the table of “how to nerf” 20% CDR from 33% without reducing cooldowns that weren’t a problem seems like a good idea. No Ele player would’ve thought that was a good idea and other classes’ heads would’ve thought it was ok bc they don’t understand ele and they don’t understand the distinction being made between their classes’ weapon skills and Ele attunements and the way the class plays.

By saying “Oh you’re saying ele should be balanced in a vacuum” you’re essentially ignoring any sense of detail of my post.

And on Engi – You’re uninformed if you think Engi is in a good place. They have great single target condi dps…if the enemy isn’t moving. In addition to this while they do have theoretically the highest single target it pales in comparison to what Necro offers as a condi class through Jagged Horrors, corruptions, and most importantly EPIDEMIC. Being able to double up on boons from everybody on the team on a boss with just 2 Necros is great. I personally don’t think it is imbalanced but it most certainly shows just how much being useful to the team is that Necro is more useful than Engi in almost every case for PvE regardless of DPS.

Engi is not taken on any raids except Vale Guardian where you need knockbacks. Any other boss and it is much better to simply run another Necro and double up on/manage conditions. Being “one of the better classes by the numbers” doesn’t mean they’re actually useful in a real applicable setting. If DPS was the end all be all we would just run thieves for all small/mobile targets and engi for condi. But we don’t. Doing mechanics in a raid is >>>>>>>>> most reasonable/not OP damage differences.

I will correct you on one thing: I didn’t so much misrepresent your argument so much as I misunderstood it. For that, I apologize. Now that I understand what you were trying to convey, I will say that that situation would be most agreeable. I will also say that they may have that in place, but without explicit knowledge of their methodology, we’re just guessing, intelligently or otherwise.

As far as engineer vs. necro, again I will agree with you. I have seen raid group makeups use both, and the way that each class does condi is very different. Necro is the more useful for their ability to manage conditions (pulling them from allies, sending them to the enemy, epidemic, boon corruption, etc), which is great because you are performing a support role (in a sense) while piling on the condis on the boss. That said, I have seen where people preferred to have an engi (they can might stack and grant other boons while applying condi, and burn is the most consistently damaging condis in the game, along with them being a more well-rounded support class). So it really depends on what the rest of the raid party consists of in determining which class is the better choice.

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Posted by: Supreme.3164

Supreme.3164

There is something more to say : Personal Bias

It is rather obvious, the devs are humans and like everybody else they will develop a personal bias, a like and dislike of certain elements in the game.

Do pls read this article:
http://blog.weflyspitfires.com/2010/06/08/how-do-developers-determine-class-balance/

You all must realize that balance in a game can end up being a little too opinionated , that leaves room for biased balance decisions

The devs themselves can’t really help it, most of the process happens subconsciously : some professions that should receive a major nerf looking at the data alone..end up receiving a minor slap on the wrist that in the dev mind should be enough, ofc the opposite happens also.

Am I just being paranoid?…hardly I tend to believe

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3meihg/roy_cronacher_on_twitter_wait_until_you_see_what/

The guy in the video was in charge of druid and scrapper development..coincidence?
Roy was in charge of herald development…again coincidence?

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

Sometimes I question the logic behind some balance decisions. For example what they did with the cooldown nerf.

Let’s say that Elementalist DPS in PVE is a problem, because mobs will stay in the AOEs and never move. Let’s agree that Lava Font was doing too much damage, again in PVE.

The sensible solution would be to lower the DPS of Lava Font, increase the CD of Lava Font, reduce the duration etc Reducing cooldowns of other Fire skills like Meteor Shower was another option for nerfing Elementalist DPS in PVE.

But what did they do? They essentially nerfed every single cooldown. Was the Elementalist problematic in other Attunements? No. Why did they have to nerf everything instead of just what was problematic?

(edited by maddoctor.2738)

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Posted by: soulknight.9620

soulknight.9620

We need an extra stack of vuln on our shatterstone to compensate these nerfs.
And maybe they can throw something extra like a 1 sec cd reduce on arcane shield to make us op again!