Guild Wars 2

Yuujin.1067:

All completely conditional, where as to execute Vapor Form strategies you need only be an Elementalist in a downed state. That’s my point.

Being an Elementalist is conditional as well, but that’s really beside the point. Being able to set up an AC is trivial, and the end effect is substantially better. Being able to throw AoEs at the inside of the gate is hardly conditional at all (most professions have something that will work) and its DPS is far more consistent.

Yuujin.1067:

If there was some sort of weapon layout, utility, or event a trait that was necessary to pull this off, it wouldn’t be so easily exploitable, but it is available to everyone immediately upon dying.

That’s /my/ point: you haven’t demonstrated that this is even a good strategy. You’re pretty much always going to be better off throwing damage from inside the keep.

Yuujin.1067:

In point three, it really comes down to the right utility. If a warrior and engineer aren’t built for surviability, they have to pop their invulnerability utility and make it back to the portal. If a Thief is specced with the fall releases blinding powder, then they can stealth the whole way back to a portal. Stealth however does not nullify damage. If you do not have the utility to pull it off or the traits however, once you go down you are dead.

Having to slot a specific Utility is a non-cost. Once you make it into a tower, you can easily break combat and change your utility skills. A thief’s stealth is usually more than enough to make it back into the tower; if you don’t have the falling damage trait, you just toss Black Powder into your bar and you’re good to go.

Yuujin.1067:

For an Elementalist, once you go down you get a get out of jail free card.

In this specific situation, sure. If you’re more than three seconds away from a keep or your zerg, though, you’re definitely dead as soon as you go down, whereas most other professions have decent enough 1s and 3s that they can hope to rally.

Yuujin.1067:

That isn’t enough evidence that maybe Vapor Form shouldn’t be usable to pass through portals?

It isn’t because you still haven’t shown that this ability is excessively strong.

Like for example, every Necro can survive falls of any height by swapping to Death Shroud before hitting the ground. It’s a cool trick they can pull that no one else can. Every other profession can trait to allow themselves to survive most falls, but every Necro can potentially survive any fall in the game.

Just because an edge is fairly unique doesn’t automatically make it overpowered. You have to demonstrate that this is actually problematic and you’ve haven’t done that. You’re focusing all your efforts on arguing that this is unique and skimping on the part when you explain why the unique trick is too powerful, which strikes me as a dubious claim given how much more damage you can deal with an AC or by throwing your AoEs at the gate nonstop.

Nikkinella.8254:

If you cant immobilize an ele after he is downed and before he can vapor form you are just bad. End of discussion. I know for a fact it can be done because I have done it many times with my guardian. As soon as I drop them I hit Chains of Light, they vapor form, float in place without moving, then drop and I spike them. You are just a bad thief who refuses to accept the advice we have given you on how to counter this and instead try to cry for nerfs rather than actually take the advice we have given you on how to stop this. So quit whining and L2P. You easymode thieves just want everything handed to you don’t you?

We’ve already established that it is impossible to do given that Vapor Form becomes active immediately after conditions are cleared. The only time you will catch an Elementalist with an immobilize before it Vapor Forms is if the Elementalsit is bad and doesn’t hit 2 right away.

Please educate yourself on how your profession and the game works before dropping into discussions with incorrect information and idiotic personal attacks.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Yuujin.1067:

For an Elementalist, once you go down you get a get out of jail free card.

In this specific situation, sure. If you’re more than three seconds away from a keep or your zerg, though, you’re definitely dead as soon as you go down, whereas most other professions have decent enough 1s and 3s that they can hope to rally.

Which is why I think they should be unable to pass through portals while downed. No one has suggested the removal of Vapor Form, a cut in its duration, or anything like that. The only thing being suggested is you be unable to pass through portals with it.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Yuujin.1067:

That isn’t enough evidence that maybe Vapor Form shouldn’t be usable to pass through portals?

It isn’t because you still haven’t shown that this ability is excessively strong.

Like for example, every Necro can survive falls of any height by swapping to Death Shroud before hitting the ground. It’s a cool trick they can pull that no one else can. Every other profession can trait to allow themselves to survive most falls, but every Necro can potentially survive any fall in the game.

Just because an edge is fairly unique doesn’t automatically make it overpowered. You have to demonstrate that this is actually problematic and you’ve haven’t done that. You’re focusing all your efforts on arguing that this is unique and skimping on the part when you explain why the unique trick is bad.

At the cost of their Death Shroud they can, sure.

Again, all the Elementalist had to do was die and press 2. That is where I see the difference.

Edit: I’ve been avoiding going into larger scale examples, for instance more than one Elementalist, or groups utilizing and abusing an unkillable Elementalist so that we can avoid the turn we’ve taken of Well that only works on a tuesday if Venus is facing west in the sky and the moon and Saturn are properly aligned in hopes that enough reasonable people would come along and realize that maybe since they are the only ones who can actually do this while downed, it should be changed.

A few have, and a few like yourself have tried to argue against changing it. There is really no reason to theorycraft it. I’m sure you or someone else who read this thread thought of a least ten examples I could have given you that would be a huge abuse of this mechanic and already thought up counter arguments for them.

Sigh.. Your just too stubborn to realize anything.

Let’s just say mistform + portal is an ele thing like stealth + burst is a thief thing and leave it at that.

This tactic has actually been used in tpvp a lot where it actually matters a lot more than in a lone ele vs Zerg situation. Yet I have not seen threads about it ( or if there have been, Anet has not made a change).

So either they find it acceptable or they are thinking of a change. Either way your whining here won’t help the case. So buck up and enjoy the game.

People don’t reply anymore and let this troll thread die.

There is a counter to this. There is no counter for stealth. How is this broken and stealth is not when this has a simple counter but stealth can’t be stopped by anything except for a trap that takes 5 seconds to setup and 10 supplies? If this gets changed then I want stealth changed so that it can only be used outside of combat. Because this ability has the potential for a lot of abuse too. A few thieves COULD continue to stealth a large group of people and wipe out an entire zerg while they all swing blindly at a bunch of invisible people. See how that works? I can make kittened exaggerated examples that would never happen either.

Nikkinella.8254:

There is a counter to this. There is no counter for stealth. How is this broken and stealth is not when this has a simple counter but stealth can’t be stopped by anything except for a trap that takes 5 seconds to setup and 10 supplies? If this gets changed then I want stealth changed so that it can only be used outside of combat. Because this ability has the potential for a lot of abuse too. A few thieves COULD continue to stealth a large group of people and wipe out an entire zerg while they all swing blindly at a bunch of invisible people. See how that works? I can make kittened exaggerated examples that would never happen either.

Well, except all of your examples are completely wrong and scream a lack of understanding of how the game and its mechanics work.

Yuujin.1067:

A few have, and a few like yourself have tried to argue against changing it. There is really no reason to theorycraft it. I’m sure you or someone else who read this thread thought of a least ten examples I could have given you that would be a huge abuse of this mechanic and already thought up counter arguments for them.

Once again, “oh I’m sure we could list examples” isn’t any kind of proof. I could respond with “I’m sure we could list ten examples of why this is UNDERpowered” and it wouldn’t be any more or less valid of a response. You’re giving non-answers to my straightforward questions and I’m done trying to get you to argue in good faith.

Lol, I’ve been following this thread for simple amusement. All I see is one person persistently defending him/herself against a horde of people without fully considering the big picture. The reason why people are bringing up other mechanics from different professions is because they’re trying to compare the concept of, “Survivability.” I’ll type the next sentence independently so you don’t miss it.

Downed state is still a combat state. A combat state is when a player engages or disengages as they please.

Now, given the setting you’ve described countless times. A tower, a zerg, and a portal. Consider the following scenarios.

Example A: Thief combat. They can engage an enemy/zerg, or disengage by cloaking and dashing 1200+900-ish distance, depending on the circumstances, back into the portal before being downed. There are counters for this, and going through all of them would just start an “if statement” contest. If you are downed… Too bad, you had your chance.

Example B: Now for Elementalist. They can engage an enemy/zerg, or disengage by using various skills/utilities. One of those skills being mistform. If they are downed and a) cannot mistform back to the portal or b) are somehow cc’d, then too bad. They had their chance to survive.

In both cases, the goal is simple – To get back to the portal in a combat state. Downed or not.

Every class has some form of an escape. Some have invulnerability, like Warriors and Gaurdians. Some cloak and dash, like Thieves and Rangers. And for Necromancers.. Well.. They have a fear, and a skill inducing constant aoe blind? Lol. Regardless.

To say Elementalists should not be able to enter the portal via Mistform in a downed state is unreasonable. It’s how an Elementalist manages to get to the portal in a combat state. If anything, you’re better off suggesting a slight delay before activation like Vengeance for warriors. In other words, the 3rd skill used by a warrior in downed state.

All in all, every class has a chance to “survive” in the situation you described. Be it alive or downed, most classes have an opportunity to zip/mist/go-superhero-mode to the portal when required. If someone chose to go further than they are capable to returning to safety? Too bad. They bit off more than they can chew. It’s a good idea to know the limits of your character.

Your next argument might be along the lines of being able to use two Misform’s. 1 pre-down, 1 post-down.

A ) You can cc an Elementalist before they mistform pre-down.
B ) There are reasons why Elementalists are being nerfed elsewhere.

In the grand scheme of things, ArenaNet were/are nerfing the Elementalists “survivability” as they deem necessary.

Nepheline.9587:

B ) There are reasons why Elementalists are being nerfed elsewhere.

In the grand scheme of things, ArenaNet were/are nerfing the Elementalists “survivability” as they deem necessary.

i may agree on the rest but don t give anet merits they don t have….
Their balancing is terrible and is destroying the game for Esport sake

Pretending they even thinked to WWW balance for 1 second is giving them credits they don t deserve…..

LordByron.8369:

Nepheline.9587:

B ) There are reasons why Elementalists are being nerfed elsewhere.

In the grand scheme of things, ArenaNet were/are nerfing the Elementalists “survivability” as they deem necessary.

i may agree on the rest but don t give anet merits they don t have….
Their balancing is terrible and is destroying the game for Esport sake

Pretending they even thinked to WWW balance for 1 second is giving them credits they don t deserve…..

Well, I secretly somewhat agree. However, ArenaNet’s intent is to reduce their survivability. Whether the changes are effective is debatable. Work in progress!

please raise your hand if you would like the ele downed state changed so we can have 2 stomp prevention skills, and a 1.5K dmg bouncing attack skill in exchange of vapor form through portals.

raises hand

I find it amusing that so many people are complaining about the ele class being able to escape death from a downed state, when thieves can escape before they go down, sneak away, heal up, and come back again and again and again until they finally succeed in killing you.
or, as previously pointed out, that a warrior can not only escape but can get up from downed state and then kill you, if not escape back into their keep.

but ele’s have to do 5 times the work to achieve 1/4 the damage of almost every other class in the game…and since they nerfed the crap out of their ability to heal and their mobility…now you want to remove their ability to escape as well after you slaughter them because they no longer have any healing or mobility…and it’s not like they are an kind of actual threat…ele’s don’t do enough damage to be a threat to anyone in a fair fight.

Nikkinella.8254:

Elementalist have the best mobility in the game.

You lost all credibility you MIGHT have had right there. Even before all the massive nerfs, ele NEVER had the best mobility in the game. We were always below thieves, rangers and warriors if all 3 were specced for mobility. Most eles do spec for mobility because we have to thanks to our crappy stats. Thieves who don’t know how to play and spec only for damage and refuse to bring any type of CC abilities to battle kitten ed and moaned till they nerfed us to the point where we are now tied with necros and engineers on mobility. Eles having the best mobility was a myth created by bad thieves who refuse to spec to be mobile with CC yet expect to catch a mobile specced ele who can CC them. [/quote]

agreed
…sigh…i remember when I used to have a sense of mobility…:-(

Evoneva Drakon.1754:

please raise your hand if you would like the ele downed state changed so we can have 2 stomp prevention skills, and a 1.5K dmg bouncing attack skill in exchange of vapor form through portals.

raises hand

raises hand
(and throw in a vengeance or an illusory backstabbing thief, or 3 stealth/teleports and I’m there)

I’ll raise my hand to that. I’d gladly exchange our downed state for a thief’s downed state. Especially considering that a thief can do more damage while downed than we can do while still up and fighting.

Amadan.9451:

lol this is very lame, elementalist are already weak and squishy, if they cannot even escape for 3 secs (not like for ever am i right?), what’s the meaning of do something there with an ele?

I will not make any comments on poor(sarcasm) elementalists being weak and squishie,but why would you believe it’s fair they ele’s regardless of build are the only class that ar UNKILABLE in wvw if the stay in range of a tower?All classes can be killed/stopped including stability/block guards,invulnerable/stability warriors,invisible thieves etc.Ele is the only class that couldn’t even care less if they get downed because they will always get inside and heal regardless of the enemy effort to stop them.Unfair is unfair anyway you look at it.

So, new elementalist downed state:
1 – chain lightning your foes for 1.2k dmg to each. bounces 5 times
2 – cover yourself in stone and become invulnerable for 5 seconds
3 – create a healing rain over yourself
4 – burst into flames dealing dmg, burn and knocking foes back.

No mist form! Are we good now?

Unlkillable when near a tower AHAHAHAHA! Immobilize does work on them when they are down. whether you are too ignorant to believe it or not, it’s a fact. I can meet you in game and hop on my guardian and prove it to you any time you’d like. I’ve never had a problem stopping an ele from getting into the tower. here’s a hint, all zerk equipment and nothing but damage abilities won’t stop them. You DO need to use one of the many immobilize skills that all classes have at their disposal. I know it’s a hard concept to grasp for some of you children so I tried to use small words ok?

Aeranima.2853:

You need to remove the mist form skill from downed state and we have officially balanced out the elementalists in wvw at least. They can still come out the fort and kitten up a entire zerg over and over again since their mist form still is the only skill that can take you inside again through the fort door. That would be all.

I apologize to the GW2 community. It was me killing entire zergs over and over with my ele. Pauly D. I’ll try to tone down my OP mist escape. If only Anet would take away every unique ability that the different classes have, so we can all run warriors and PewPew each other with all the same abilities. Sounds like fun!

HarryLongrod.4216:

PewPew each other with all the same abilities. Sounds like fun!

If you played the Halloween MOBA mini-game, it was surprisingly fun and balanced. I was dissapointed in Dragonball though.

How exactly did an ele “wreck” your zerg?!?!?! I’m assuming the ele would attack for a few seconds and run back inside the keep. Was he a D/D ele cleaving the raid with entire 1-2k lightning whips? Did he single out the most important player in the zerg and get a 5k fire grab? Did you let him sit there and cast churning earth for 3 seconds? Did you guys wipe to this OP’ness?

Yes, vapor form in a downed state allows us to get into a keeps portal. Yes, no other class can do this.

What is being asked is equality for a class base game in which there can be no equality. In certain situations some class will be better then other classes. If you dont want that go play Darkfall.

Elementalist are kings of the downed state. Someone has to be!

Other class downstate is useful in all aspects of W3 except getting through doors. Our downstate is ONLY useful for getting through doors or frantically trying to get further back into a group (thieves and warriors can but not as easily whilst mesmer is random). Any thing thing else is just to troll enemies into a fail stomp or buy time hoping you res somehow. So because of one gimmick which can be used on the brink of death, the class must be destroyed since it would also affect PvE.

Guess we’re not allowed to be able to do a gimmick when downed near a door/portal as well as no damage

Nepheline.9587:

LordByron.8369:

Nepheline.9587:

B ) There are reasons why Elementalists are being nerfed elsewhere.

In the grand scheme of things, ArenaNet were/are nerfing the Elementalists “survivability” as they deem necessary.

i may agree on the rest but don t give anet merits they don t have….
Their balancing is terrible and is destroying the game for Esport sake

Pretending they even thinked to WWW balance for 1 second is giving them credits they don t deserve…..

Well, I secretly somewhat agree. However, ArenaNet’s intent is to reduce their survivability. Whether the changes are effective is debatable. Work in progress!

From what I’ve been seeing, anet focuses as much or more on nerfing things bunker eles can do besides bunkering as much as nerfing the actual survivability. Which is why other build types are rare.

mini.6018:

Amadan.9451:

lol this is very lame, elementalist are already weak and squishy, if they cannot even escape for 3 secs (not like for ever am i right?), what’s the meaning of do something there with an ele?

I will not make any comments on poor(sarcasm) elementalists being weak and squishie,but why would you believe it’s fair they ele’s regardless of build are the only class that ar UNKILABLE in wvw if the stay in range of a tower?All classes can be killed/stopped including stability/block guards,invulnerable/stability warriors,invisible thieves etc.Ele is the only class that couldn’t even care less if they get downed because they will always get inside and heal regardless of the enemy effort to stop them.Unfair is unfair anyway you look at it.

I don’t really feel like paraphrasing my short thesis. I’ll just quote myself, and highlight key points that apply. Bold text for please read, underlined and bold text for must please read. Feel free to read all of it if you have the time.

Nepheline.9587:

Lol, I’ve been following this thread for simple amusement. All I see is one person persistently defending him/herself against a horde of people without fully considering the big picture. The reason why people are bringing up other mechanics from different professions is because they’re trying to compare the concept of, “Survivability.” I’ll type the next sentence independently so you don’t miss it.

Downed state is still a combat state. A combat state is when a player engages or disengages as they please.

Now, given the setting you’ve described countless times. A tower, a zerg, and a portal. Consider the following scenarios.

Example A: Thief combat. They can engage an enemy/zerg, or disengage by cloaking and dashing 1200+900-ish distance, depending on the circumstances, back into the portal before being downed. There are counters for this, and going through all of them would just start an “if statement” contest. If you are downed… Too bad, you had your chance.

Example B: Now for Elementalist. They can engage an enemy/zerg, or disengage by using various skills/utilities. One of those skills being mistform. If they are downed and a) cannot mistform back to the portal or b) are somehow cc’d, then too bad. They had their chance to survive.

In both cases, the goal is simple – To get back to the portal in a combat state. Downed or not.

Every class has some form of an escape. Some have invulnerability, like Warriors and Gaurdians. Some cloak and dash, like Thieves and Rangers. And for Necromancers.. Well.. They have a fear, and a skill inducing constant aoe blind? Lol. Regardless.

To say Elementalists should not be able to enter the portal via Mistform in a downed state is unreasonable. It’s how an Elementalist manages to get to the portal in a combat state. If anything, you’re better off suggesting a slight delay before activation like Vengeance for warriors. In other words, the 3rd skill used by a warrior in downed state.

All in all, every class has a chance to “survive” in the situation you described. Be it alive or downed, most classes have an opportunity to zip/mist/go-superhero-mode to the portal when required. If someone chose to go further than they are capable to returning to safety? Too bad. They bit off more than they can chew. It’s a good idea to know the limits of your character.

Your next argument might be along the lines of being able to use two Mistform’s. 1 pre-down, 1 post-down.

A ) You can cc an Elementalist before they mistform pre-down.
B ) There are reasons why Elementalists are being nerfed elsewhere.

In the grand scheme of things, ArenaNet were/are trying to nerf the Elementalists “survivability” as they deem necessary.

Survivability is the common goal in the scenario described and highlighted in the first half of the quote.

To single out a mechanic from one profession, and not consider other “op” mechanics in others is “unfair.” It sounds like a bunch of children bickering over how the person sitting next to them has a better toy because individually, they’re not satisfied with their own until all the other toys are deemed inferior to their own. My toy submarine can sink in the water and has a built in flashlight. Your jet plane does not, but can hover over the ground for 3 seconds and make random pew pew noises. They’re two different things. Both unique. This is why some parents just give all their children the same toys to avoid this silly bickering.

Aeranima.2853:

chnet.1832:

No need to remove the skill, just change it so you can’t pass gate/portal when you’re in that downed mist form and it’d be enough.

Btw, warriors when downed also can stand up and move into keeps. Yes they’ll die soon after that but team players can immediately revive them thereafter. Will you say the warriors also cannot pass gates/portals in that state?

Yes, it’s cheesy as kitten. I do NOT want people who are downed being able to escape and get ressed inside a tower. Then all classes should be able to do it. Not 1-2 professions only.

Edit: I run a stunlock/daze build so I know how to counter their downstate. It’s just annoying when they do get away inside a tower/get ressed/and back to battle again.

i will be fine with this when thieves wont be able to stealth.. (sarcastically joking ofc) they can run into a zerg, shadowstep through, shadow refuge, and keep running.
I will be fine with this if a thief cannot heal for 2k over 4 seconds while in stealth EVERY time they stealth.
I will be fine with this when thieves have their backstab ability FINALLY have a cooldown, but, no nvm their “technical” cooldown is 3s from reveal.
Its not even like the ele is op with this, they have to be REALLY close to the tower to begin with, and for that to happen they need to blow all their CD to get near it.
Also, as if ONE ele can destroy 30 people, yeah thats pretty funny. Mesmers can port, thieves can permastealth, warriors have best burst with high armor+health, necroes have double the HP bar, rangers have permanent pets, engineers have kits with no CD’s, and what else… gaurdians can tank 5 people? Theres a special thing to every class that a lot of people hate. but without the special thing to ever class, they wouldnt be that “class” anymore. you need to stop hating on a class just because you are jelous of a special thing they have which you dont.

Nikkinella.8254:

There is a counter to this. There is no counter for stealth.

10 supply trap to prevent door ingress.

There, I solved the “problem”. Thread’s over, guys.

Yeah because I can carry hundreds of supplies with me and tons of those traps and plant them all over wvw to deal with the massive population of thieves. You can only carry 10 supplies, takes 5 seconds to set up the trap. 5 seconds is long enough for the thief to kill you or escape. those traps are horrible. if it instantly set up, it might be more practical. You can also only set one at a time and they disappear after a while even if no one sets them off. This is the only MMO I can think of that has some sort of stealthing mechanic and other classes don’t have an ability to remove it. That’s what makes it imbalanced. Every other classes mechanic has a built in counter that other classes can use.

Thieves complaining about another profession’s ability to escape is just too precious.

Uugh.. learn a class before you start complaining. I must agree, an ele is the hardest class to keep out of a keep (not to say almost impossible if he/she uses rtl towards the portal and pops the normal mist form the moment rtl stops (protip)).

However, if you manage to get an ele down in front of the portal it will ofcourse mistform but, what the mistform does NOT do is breaking preapplied imobilizers. So just throw a load of immobilization at him/her and you should be fine. It might work, might not – since eles have traits to gain -83% duration on cripple/imobil/frost.

I don’t see it as much as a problem since it is the only actual useful skill in our downed state (yes, our downed state is kitten. I only use mistform to either jump inside a tower, or kill myself by jumping down a cliff).

Immobilize them when stomping. Problem solved, next!

I feel like I’m going to have to put this on every single page so people stop repeating bad information.

As stated previously and then several times throughout this thread, under normal circumstances it is not possible to immobilize an Elementalist before they activate Vapor Form.

1) Upon being downed, preexisting conditions fall off your character.
2) There is a time between being downed and gaining access to your downed state where you do not take damage and conditions cannot be applied.
3) Vapor form is available IMMEDIATELY meaning an Elementalist need only spam 2 the moment they go down to avoid being immobilized. The only reason an Elementalist would be immobilized is if they were slow on pressing 2. Relying on an Elementalist to be bad at their class is not a counter to a problem

Now, based off of what you’ve read in this thread by actual Elementalist, you would think there was a cool down on Vapor Form before it was activated giving you time to prepare immobilization, but there isn’t. If your goal is to immediately Vapor Form upon death to get back into a portal, you can do so without risk of being immobilized.

People continue to turn this into something it is not. Surviability is not fighting a group of people outside of your keep with no fear of dying because once you are downed you can risk free Vapor Form back into your keep and heal up. That treads the line of abusing game mechanics.

Once again, because apparently saying this several times a page isn’t enough I’m going to repeat myself in the same post: This thread is about an Elementalist’s ability to fight outside of friendly owned buildings with portals, die in front of them, and flee to safety due to Vapor Form becoming active immediately as it occupies the 2 slot on the downed skill bar.

And guys, seriously. If you’re speccing glass cannon in WvW or sPvP don’t come into a thread that has nothing to do with surviability and complain about dying a lot. I could go to any forum and listen to a bunch of players whine about how they spec glass cannon but take lots of damage and how unfair it is.

I can only go to the Elementalist forum to talk about Vapor Form and portals.

Hey you’re still here! Relax, I’m not gonna argue anymore.

*sits back and watches the show

Also, this:

Thieves complaining about another profession’s ability to escape is just too precious.

I see no issues with it.

As stated in my previous post this is a class base game. In class base games you have one class who is better in a specific situation then other classes. In this case, in a downed state, Elementalists have the better ‘skill’.

Thank you.. come again.

Please visit us in the Thief’s forum as we talk about a specific situation where thieves over excel and need to be adjusted.

Yuujin.1067:

Elementalist have the best mobility in the game.

ahaha shtap it my sides hurts .
/takes a breath/ phew you almost killed me with this; try dueling a competent thief, warrior, mesmer and ranger and you will learn what mobility is.
We have a decent mobility, decent damage, decent survivability, decent healing abilities, decent conditions removal but we excel at nothing and looks like a.net is happy with things staying like this.

cheshirefox.7026:

as a staff elementalist, i can tell you the only professions i’m Not ‘scared of’ are other staff elementalists and necros

You clearly haven’t seen any decent Necros. I can seriously kitten up Eles on mine in both my power and my condi build.

if you had to ask yourself, “what is the point of mist form on downed state?” , the only real conclusion you could come to is that it is designed to let the elementalist move to safety to be rezzed. the other 2 skills are simply very weak (offensively, about as weak as the guardian). if getting to safety is the design goal of mist form, then going through portals is probably intended.

this is different than the thief/mesmer down skills, which are offensively much, much more powerful, which focus on getting a kill or buying some time.

Raven.9603:

if you had to ask yourself, “what is the point of mist form on downed state?” , the only real conclusion you could come to is that it is designed to let the elementalist move to safety to be rezzed. the other 2 skills are simply very weak (offensively, about as weak as the guardian). if getting to safety is the design goal of mist form, then going through portals is probably intended.

this is different than the thief/mesmer down skills, which are offensively much, much more powerful, which focus on getting a kill or buying some time.

I haven’t tested it, but I imagine that thief downed 2 can also go through doors assuming it can work like lightning flash.

I cant believe this is still going on. We should all just ignore this terribad thief who wants easy mode to be even easier.

kirtar.8453:

I haven’t tested it, but I imagine that thief downed 2 can also go through doors assuming it can work like lightning flakitten

requires line of sight, so it doesnt really work with portals (you have to run into a portal, not just land near it). mesmer skills randomly relocate them. that said, both of these classes downed attacks hit very, very hard compared to every other class in the game.

Raven.9603:

kirtar.8453:

I haven’t tested it, but I imagine that thief downed 2 can also go through doors assuming it can work like lightning flakitten

requires line of sight, so it doesnt really work with portals (you have to run into a portal, not just land near it). mesmer skills randomly relocate them. that said, both of these classes downed attacks hit very, very hard compared to every other class in the game.

If the ground targeting works like lightning flash, placing the circle on the door (e.g. having it creep up the wall) will put you through. That could of course, be a bug because I’ve had times where I’ve fallen off a wall near a door and ended up back inside a tower.

cheshirefox.7026:

do you want a cookie?

Yes, but that wasn’t my point. It is (was?) harder to do well as a Necro than with most other professions, but if you stick with it and get comfortable with their skills, you can tear people apart. I’m not saying I’m an amazing Necro, I’m saying I’ve just put in the time to learn them and a lot of Necros haven’t.

HURRRR DURRRR NERF THE CLOTHIES SO THEY HAVE TO REROLL HURRRR DERRRR…
is what I just read.

should rename the thread to herpa der|p. no really though its not a “flaw”, it’s an advantage… and only a very small, tiny almost insignificant advantage. I’d gladly trade
out vapor for an out of combat weapon swap or even a buff to damage.

Being a D/D Elementalist, I can’t believe what I’m freaking hearing from these people that are whining so much about Ele Mist Form. Are you DEAD serious right now? We’re already weak and squishy, easy to take down, usually one of the main targets. Taking that away from us isn’t balancing us, it’s destroying us more. Stop whining cause you miss one kill, if you’re in a zerg, you’ll get others. Break the door down, chase him and kill him, and don’t whine cause they can escape you easily. From what I’m hearing it’s not about mist form in downed, it’s that we are able to use a “cheat tactic” to get away. Thieves have repeated Stealth, and Mesmers have those kitten clones, to get away with. If your whining cause your zerg is attacked by an Ele , who I ASSUME is either D/D (laughs) or most likely a S/D build cause he’s that close to your zerg to be able to mist back into the fort, and the attack on your zerg is so bad and unbalanced that you need to come onto the forums and demand they nerf us more, then your zergs suck and you suck. Plus you are able to immobilize us after we’re downed, soon as we hit the ground, put on a stun, or immediately go for the kill. The only reason I’ve been able to get away in mist form when I’m downed is cause I lept from a cliff into the water and they didnt’ want to leave their zerg to chase me. It’s only unbalanced if you can’t stop us, but you can, so go learn and stop crying.

Thief has builds that allow them to escape from anyone, anywhere on the entire game field with out being downed, so complaining about the ability to get back in a keep if close enough to the portal when downed seems a little ridiculous.

That’s because every single thief and their mother uses Shadow Refuge, Shadowstep, and one of their signets, and absolutely refuses to change any of those utilities for one of their many CC abilities so they want to remove any means we have of escaping so they don’t have to adapt. Typical thief mentality. Here I’ll make it easy for you. If you know you’re fighting an ele, take needle trap with you. Plant it on their body just as you down them. They will become immobilized as they are downed and they won’t be able to get away. And yes it does work because I’ve tried it. Learn to adapt. Every single other class has to bring some sort of ability with them when they know they are going up against thieves to deal with their BS stealthing and running away, so why should thieves be the only ones who don’t have to adapt?

Just checking it.

Seems like people are still complaining about thieves being powerful and this tactic being counterable. It isn’t counterable, your profession is fine, this thread is about the mechanic discussed in the original post.

Though, this being a perk and profession advantage has gotten me thinking.

I remember when I found out a Thief could equip a dagger in his offhand and then use cloak and dagger to stealth himself. He wouldn’t get the reveal time if he didn’t attack anyone, so the thief would wait for the timer to run out and then do it again! Pretty cool right? If he invested 25 points into the Shadow Arts tree he could use this tactic to put might on himself everytime he restealthed and if he went to 30 points he could even heal slowly while stealthed!

I thought this was one of the most shameful tactics I’d come across on the Thief forums. I mean, there were some legit arguments to be had. You could still attack the thief while he was stealth, which was 100% true. If you hit him with some form of CC it could prevent him form being able to get into melee range to get another cloak and dagger off. 100% true too! If he went down this tactic was completely useless. Also 100% true!

But even after hearing the arguments? I still thought it was cheesy. Sure, it would take forever for him to actually kill someone and you had to really not be paying attention to not realize you were being attacked, but nope, still cheesy as hell.

After reading this topic though, I can see this was just a profession perk, an advantage special to Thieves that shouldn’t have been taken away. This whole time I thought it was an abuse of game mechanics, but it was really wasn’t.

Just an FYI: you now have to wait for your downed skills to come up before you can mist form. No more spamming 2 as your going down for that instant invul.

Meaning the terribad thieves have plenty of time to drop a needle trap on us and guarantee a kill.

Well, what a surprise.
Crappy players that never learned how to immobilise someone, have now been given a helping hand by the clueless devs.
They really ought to change the cover of this game to “Care Bears 2”

Ah well, if they still fail to use what they`ve been told countless times, it just goes to show how terribad these “players” really are…