Guild Wars 2

Zelyhn.8069:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

mshinga.6540:

It would be nice to not be forced into conjures to get “good” damage, broken mechanic or not.

Staff and LH are equally viable, despite what Zelyhn might try to tell you. I’ve run the numbers myself and they’re pretty much identical. In fact, LH is worse if you account for the fact that it’s not 100% uptime over a longer fight, or multiple shorter ones in rapid succession.

Guang I agree that staff is strong

But you still have to prove to me that your rotation calculation is correct.
Again, for a usual rotation with full traits (cd reduction, persisitng flames), we do:
- one lava font, hitting 5 times = 296 * 5 = 1480
- three fireballs = 314 * 3 = 942
- wait 0.6s for lava font cd to come back up (usually we start to cast a fireball but it is interrupted by the lava font cast. This is a dps gain compared to cast 4 fireballs in total)
Total damage: 2422
Total time: 5.2 seconds
Damage per second: 466

Note for everybody to understand: this is just tooltip damage at lvl 80, Guang then uses a formula to scale it up with stats and buffs.

But Guang does not use the same rotaton calculation, and he gets a number for tooltip damage that is mistakenly too high: 528

The difference is big. So either you explain to me how you get this rotation number and show me why mine is wrong, or you are over estimating staff’s damage.

I can’t check it now but your LH number is inflated as well. I’ve never gotten over 13k on LH, never 14k like you claim, unless you were to count full Bloodlust stacks in which case staff is also over 14k. If any given LH build is every higher it is by less than 5% and that’s only when the hammer is actually up.

Yes I included bloodstacks in my initial LH calculations using my spreadsheet. The difference shouldn’t be so big since you include hunter buffs in yours.
Remember to use the right build (0/25/25/20/0) and the right food (sweet and spicy butternut seem to be the best)
Also the hammer attributes give you 180 precision as opposed to the 150 you use.

Oh also there is the extra sigil!

If ele is going to have to wear cloth and lack the survival tricks of a mesmer or the health of a necro they kitten well better bring something to the table. They have good dps, but decent isn’t enough when heavier armor wearing lotso health professions also have good dps.

Aldebaran.8132:

If ele is going to have to wear cloth and lack the survival tricks of a mesmer or the health of a necro they kitten well better bring something to the table. They have good dps, but decent isn’t enough when heavier armor wearing lotso health professions also have good dps.

They have combo fields, can provide swiftness, protection and regeneration (and soothing mist), heal and remove conditions regularly on nearby allies, and have ‘larger than melee’ range and ‘bigger than melee AoE’ on their melee set (which can be quite useful at times).

ThiBash.5634:

They have combo fields, can provide swiftness, protection and regeneration (and soothing mist), heal and remove conditions regularly on nearby allies, and have ‘larger than melee’ range and ‘bigger than melee AoE’ on their melee set (which can be quite useful at times).

Mesmers have chaos field, can provide swiftness, protection, regeneration, heal and remove conditions. They also have a lot of projectile control skills.

Sharpe.1485:

All you guys in this thread saying ele is fine…
Take a look at the last two “big” tournaments Guild Wars 2 was in, PAX and MLG. You know how many eles were in there competing at top level? I bet you don’t because if you did you’d realize how stupid you all sound.

Answer is zero.

unfortunately most players are in denial and refuse to admit the evidence.
What’s worst, seems like devs want us to stay where we are.

haviz.1340:

Mesmers have chaos field, can provide swiftness, protection, regeneration, heal and remove conditions. They also have a lot of projectile control skills.

I’m sorry, did I say somewhere that Mesmers cannot do these things?

ThiBash.5634:

I’m sorry, did I say somewhere that Mesmers cannot do these things?

If you didn’t imply otherwise you should practice logical reasoning.

Elementalists are good for PvE, but so is every other profession. Some of them are too good though.

The elementalist lacks in PvP (the weakest class right now) and WvW (you can stay behind the zerg using AoE……. waiting to be ganked and die).

Karazul.2934:

Elementalists are good for PvE, but so is every other profession. Some of them are too good though.

Like the elementalist?

Terrible in SPvP.

Who cares about face roll easy PvE where literally anyone in any class in any spec in any gear can succeed?

Great in WvW.

Kodiak.3281:

Great in WvW.

if you cower behind the zerg, and god forbid someone pulls you out of there….maybe.
Try to get out, roam, do 1vs1 and 1vs2 and you will instantly notice what’s missing.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Karazul.2934:

Elementalists are good for PvE, but so is every other profession. Some of them are too good though.

Like the elementalist?

Everything works in PvE… but elementalist is not great at it. There are better professions out there that brings more to the group. And I dare to say that buff the elementalist support is not the way to fix it. Support in this game sucks.

In PvP and WvW I would like the elementalist to be a high skill cap / high reward class. Whats the point in having 20 weapon skills and having to use all of them to be effective If you will be equal (or in most of the cases, less) effective than another class?

Grevender.9235:

if you cower behind the zerg, and god forbid someone pulls you out of there….maybe.
Try to get out, roam, do 1vs1 and 1vs2 and you will instantly notice what’s missing.

What do 1vX contribute to the over all WvW effort? Nothing.

Karazul.2934:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Karazul.2934:

Elementalists are good for PvE, but so is every other profession. Some of them are too good though.

Like the elementalist?

There are better professions out there that brings more to the group.

Go ahead and name one then.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Zelyhn.8069:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

mshinga.6540:

It would be nice to not be forced into conjures to get “good” damage, broken mechanic or not.

Staff and LH are equally viable, despite what Zelyhn might try to tell you. I’ve run the numbers myself and they’re pretty much identical. In fact, LH is worse if you account for the fact that it’s not 100% uptime over a longer fight, or multiple shorter ones in rapid succession.

Guang I agree that staff is strong

But you still have to prove to me that your rotation calculation is correct.
Again, for a usual rotation with full traits (cd reduction, persisitng flames), we do:
- one lava font, hitting 5 times = 296 * 5 = 1480
- three fireballs = 314 * 3 = 942
- wait 0.6s for lava font cd to come back up (usually we start to cast a fireball but it is interrupted by the lava font cast. This is a dps gain compared to cast 4 fireballs in total)
Total damage: 2422
Total time: 5.2 seconds
Damage per second: 466

Note for everybody to understand: this is just tooltip damage at lvl 80, Guang then uses a formula to scale it up with stats and buffs.

But Guang does not use the same rotaton calculation, and he gets a number for tooltip damage that is mistakenly too high: 528

The difference is big. So either you explain to me how you get this rotation number and show me why mine is wrong, or you are over estimating staff’s damage.

I can’t check it now but your LH number is inflated as well. I’ve never gotten over 13k on LH, never 14k like you claim, unless you were to count full Bloodlust stacks in which case staff is also over 14k. If any given LH build is every higher it is by less than 5% and that’s only when the hammer is actually up.

Also, I just tested Meteor Shower on the LA dummy (which seems to have a standard sized hitbox) and recorded a range of hits on it between 4-8. The average actually leans towards the high end but to avoid over-inflating the numbers I’ve assumed that the Meteor Shower will hit 6 times. I’ve also fixed the Lava Font number as you were right about it being a bit too high; the base DPS number should be 479 for 3 fireballs + one Lava Font every 5.05 seconds. Add in the value of Meteor Shower hitting 6 times for 4s channel every 24s, and subtracting the .8s of Fireball you’ll lose between the Meteor Shower channel and the next Lava Font, and you’ve got a total unscaled DPS of 544.

Throw in traits and all the buffs and scholar runes and it’s worth 15667. Add Signet of Fire, 16569. Max Bloodlust, 17698.

I’ve popped your LH build into the spreadsheet again with the updated consumables and I’m getting:

Base unscaled: 461
With traits, buffs, and consumable (power): 13905
Signet of Fire doesn’t add anything because your crit chance is already 100%
Max Bloodlust: 14906

Which puts staff DPS pretty cleanly in the lead. 17.6k DPS is outrageously high even for someone with literally every possible buff in the game. Even a mesmer with 3 phantasms under the same conditions only gets 16274, and everyone’s favorite “obviously the best DPS in the game” warrior only gets 13560.

Conclusion: Elementalist isn’t bad. Elementalist is God. All hail.

Are you using your own frame counting to get these numbers for cooldowns (lava font: 5.05 cd + cast time) and total rotation time?

The total rotation time has been found to be slightly higher than theoretically calculated.

I may be mistaken but last time I checked the cooldown of a skill does not start until the animation of the skill is over. So for lava font: cast time 0.2s, extra animation time 0.2s, cooldown (traited) 4.8s, therefore total cd = 5.2s
This would bring your corrected base dps figure more in line with mine.

The practice dummy has a size which is larger than the human hitbox, but so do many of the mobs. Your 6 hit average seems in line with what Sabull and I have calculated so far.

You figures you get seem extraordinarily high to me, but again you are including more buffs than I would, so I would have to recheck with that.

Did you include the extra sigil for LH?

Zelyhn.8069:

Are you using your own frame counting to get these numbers for cooldowns (lava font: 5.05 cd + cast time) and total rotation time?

The total rotation time has been found to be slightly higher than theoretically calculated.

I may be mistaken but last time I checked the cooldown of a skill does not start until the animation of the skill is over. So for lava font: cast time 0.2s, extra animation time 0.2s, cooldown (traited) 4.8s, therefore total cd = 5.2s
This would bring your corrected base dps figure more in line with mine.

The practice dummy has a size which is larger than the human hitbox, but so do many of the mobs. Your 6 hit average seems in line with what Sabull and I have calculated so far.

You figures you get seem extraordinarily high to me, but again you are including more buffs than I would, so I would have to recheck with that.

Did you include the extra sigil for LH?

Yeah, I think the LH number is right. If anything it may be too high because I think I forgot to untick the “ascended weapon” box but now I’m too lazy to check lol. Also that’s the first I’ve heard of this animation cooldown theory. From what I can tell Lava Font pretty much starts recharging immediately. It’s kinda hard to even see the .25s cast affecting the CD, if it’s even there at all.

Man, all these people saying the ele sucks.

No, the ele isn’t going to do the highest burst damage. No, they are not going to be easy to play. And yes, they have the crappiest base health / armor in the game. If you are a “ZOMG BIG NUMBERS” person, the ele probably isn’t for you. Other professions will probably do better in duels than an ele.

The areas ele’s really shine at are high sustained AoE DPS, crowd control, condition removal, and combos (fields + finishers).

Most of the ele’s skills are AoE. So while you aren’t going to burst someone down like a 2-spamming d/p thief, you will outDPS them when you have access to a clump of enemies.

You also won’t be able to pump out the same raw damage as a zerker 100 blades warrior. Keep in mind, though, that zerker 100 blades warriors are very squishy and most of their damage requires enemies to stand right next to them. If you take 100 blades warrior into WvW or sPvP, you are pretty much telling the enemy “Here, stand still for me while I spin in place”.

Keep in mind that ele’s don’t need all that much health to begin with. When you go into the water trait line, just roll off of you. With a lot of condition removal, toughness + healing power is the way to go. Toughness will make each point of health count for much more, and healing power will keep your health sustained. Combine that with heavy control skills and several escape methods, and you will be one annoying kitten to kill.

So overall, if you are using burst damage or base stats to compare eles to other professions, the ele just isn’t going to match up to it. The ele excels in areas that are difficult to measure. And they are one of the harder professions to play in the game, because they are all about managing cooldowns and utility. /End Rant

To the people testing meteor shower against dummies: If you cast meteor shower and immediately go into tornado, your meteors inherit the bonus +1000 power and +40% crit chance.

I think a good ele is very strong. It just doesnt fit the meta right now. but in solo q you should have no problems

ThiBash.5634:

and have ‘larger than melee’ range and ‘bigger than melee AoE’ on their melee set (which can be quite useful at times).

Agreed, useful that we can at least land some of our spells in D/D weapon set, which is the main problem of our other weapons, to actually cause our sub-par dmg by landing spells

From June 25th patch:

Lava Font: Reduced the cast time from .36 seconds to .2 seconds. Reduced the aftercast from .34 seconds to .2 seconds.

Try it ingame, you can see that the cooldown does not start until a bit after that spell has finished casting. You can estimate this time because the sort of white haze on the skill ticks after the spell is cast.

This is why you do not cast MS every 24s: its cooldown only starts at the end of the cast, so you can only cast it every 28s !

Also you really need to change the way you compute your rotation. You simply can’t assume that you will cast stuff on cd. For instance, the cd of lava font may be up during a MS cast, so you would loose a few seconds (which is a lot for lava font). You need a proper rotation calculator where you iterate each skill.

And after this we need Sabull to check the total animation time of the rotation. This is because, like I told you, the in-game rotation may take a bit more time due to weird casting mechanics and mistakes on frame counting on our behalf.

_

can you recompute all your dps numbers without hunter buffs?

Maybe provide a link here with your updated spreadsheet

_

Did you include the extra sigil for LH ? (it’s like 10% more damage so you know ..)

Kodiak.3281:

Grevender.9235:

if you cower behind the zerg, and god forbid someone pulls you out of there….maybe.
Try to get out, roam, do 1vs1 and 1vs2 and you will instantly notice what’s missing.

What do 1vX contribute to the over all WvW effort? Nothing.

we are not here to establish what contribute does it gives, we are here to discuss if that scenario is balanced for Elementalist or not.
The answer is: no, is not balanced.

on a side note:
- stomping gives points to your server (using skills from the safety of a zerg doesn’t)
- only with direct confrontation (1vs1 and 1vs2) you can ascertain class balance: yelling “p0wn3d u n00b!!!” to unlucky folks that crossed your AoE while escaping from your zerg is not going to improve your individual skills and create a very misleading concept of “balance”.

haviz.1340:

ThiBash.5634:

I’m sorry, did I say somewhere that Mesmers cannot do these things?

If you didn’t imply otherwise you should practice logical reasoning.

What’s wrong with having 2 professions that can do the same thing in a different way?

Grevender.9235:

we are not here to establish what contribute does it gives, we are here to discuss if that scenario is balanced for Elementalist or not.
The answer is: no, is not balanced.

Well, I suppose that warriors need a buff then because they’re just as good at Crab Toss as any other profession and we can’t have that!

on a side note:
- stomping gives points to your server (using skills from the safety of a zerg doesn’t)

No, but setting up a group of people so they can be stomped does so indirectly.

- only with direct confrontation (1vs1 and 1vs2) you can ascertain class balance:

The game is obviously based on group play, not soloing. Dungeons are 5-man, sPvP is group vs. group (only recently did Anet add solo arenas, and only because egocentric players kept asking for it) and WvW is 99% about capping points, which apart from the sentries are balanced for groups too (and yes, I know supply camps can be soloed, but it’s obvious they’re meant for 2 or 3 players).

1v1 may be your whole world, but it’s certainly not the whole world of Guild Wars 2.

yelling “p0wn3d u n00b!!!” to unlucky folks that crossed your AoE while escaping from your zerg is not going to improve your individual skills and create a very misleading concept of “balance”.

Nobody’s arguing with that.

Gaunglai, I have modeled the “spam all on cd” rotation for staff and I find a coefficient per second of 1.42, which is a base dps of 1.42 * 1047.5 / 2600 = 523 in your terms. Total rotation time: 28s

In comparison the “spam all but do not interrupt any cast” rotation has a coefficient per second of 1.36, so 502 base dps in your terms. Total rotation time: 29.8s

The problem is as follows:
The second rotation has been recorded by Sabull and he found a 1.2s gap between the theoretical and empirical results in total rotation time (31s empirical while 29.8s was the expected time). We concluded that either we had bad data about the animation time of some spells or there were issues with casting mechanics (server-client issues). Either way, it is quite possible that the first rotation (the one you are using) takes more time in total in practice.
We could try to record the second rotation, to see how much time it takes in total, but it is trickier.
Since the first rotation has 20 casts while the second has 23, we can expect a smaller time gap, but nothing is for certain.

Anyway, until then, you can not come up with such strong claims as you do about staff dps, especially when you have so many flaws in your calculations.

I still roll cleric/ ptv ele d/d 10/30/30 and own. Ive never ever tried another Ele build tbh. Dont own any zerker gear, just cavalier trinkets and I dont even equip. Damage is kind “poor” but I run down anything in PVE and 2v1 people far easier in wvw than I do with any of my other classes (Except Engi). However… I wont use ele in pvp, no no no.

Grevender.9235:

Kodiak.3281:

Grevender.9235:

if you cower behind the zerg, and god forbid someone pulls you out of there….maybe.
Try to get out, roam, do 1vs1 and 1vs2 and you will instantly notice what’s missing.

What do 1vX contribute to the over all WvW effort? Nothing.

we are not here to establish what contribute does it gives, we are here to discuss if that scenario is balanced for Elementalist or not.
The answer is: no, is not balanced.

on a side note:
- stomping gives points to your server (using skills from the safety of a zerg doesn’t)
- only with direct confrontation (1vs1 and 1vs2) you can ascertain class balance: yelling “p0wn3d u n00b!!!” to unlucky folks that crossed your AoE while escaping from your zerg is not going to improve your individual skills and create a very misleading concept of “balance”.

If the scenario contributes nothing to the WvW effort then why would I waste my time on it? I don’t care if we’re balanced 1vX because 1vX contributes nothing to any element of game play. It’s something people do that was never intended by the game designers so why would you expect them to balance things around an aspect of game play that was never intended/supported? It’s just naive.

As for “cowering” behind the Zerg, it’s the Zerg that wins WvW. Elementalist is one of the best characters in these scenarios having great AOE support and great ranged AOE DPS/CC. Sure a Guardian can bring AOE Support, but lacks the ranged AOE DPS/CC. A Necro can bring the ranged AOE DPS/CC but lacks the AOE Support. We have it all in one tidy package.

Kodiak.3281:

Grevender.9235:

Kodiak.3281:

Grevender.9235:

if you cower behind the zerg, and god forbid someone pulls you out of there….maybe.
Try to get out, roam, do 1vs1 and 1vs2 and you will instantly notice what’s missing.

What do 1vX contribute to the over all WvW effort? Nothing.

we are not here to establish what contribute does it gives, we are here to discuss if that scenario is balanced for Elementalist or not.
The answer is: no, is not balanced.

on a side note:
- stomping gives points to your server (using skills from the safety of a zerg doesn’t)
- only with direct confrontation (1vs1 and 1vs2) you can ascertain class balance: yelling “p0wn3d u n00b!!!” to unlucky folks that crossed your AoE while escaping from your zerg is not going to improve your individual skills and create a very misleading concept of “balance”.

If the scenario contributes nothing to the WvW effort then why would I waste my time on it? I don’t care if we’re balanced 1vX because 1vX contributes nothing to any element of game play. It’s something people do that was never intended by the game designers so why would you expect them to balance things around an aspect of game play that was never intended/supported? It’s just naive.

As for “cowering” behind the Zerg, it’s the Zerg that wins WvW. Elementalist is one of the best characters in these scenarios having great AOE support and great ranged AOE DPS/CC. Sure a Guardian can bring AOE Support, but lacks the ranged AOE DPS/CC. A Necro can bring the ranged AOE DPS/CC but lacks the AOE Support. We have it all in one tidy package.

1vX balance can mean a great deal to someone’s gameplay if they prefer soloing in PvE, roaming in WvW, or want to PvP in general. Of course individual play is an aspect of the game that was intended, and should be supported.

I think it’s arrogant to say that solo play “contributes nothing” just because you, personally, find it trivial.

actually, if classes are balanced 1vs1 your zergfest would be more efficient (currently Ele is heavily underpowered, and you can understand this ONLY with class vs class comparison), so it’s not true that it would not contribute to the scenario, on the contrary, it’s the best way to achieve true balance.

Zerg wins in WvW? search “zerg busting” videos, you may be surprised.

Imagi.4561:

1vX balance can mean a great deal to someone’s gameplay if they prefer soloing in PvE, roaming in WvW, or want to PvP in general. Of course individual play is an aspect of the game that was intended, and should be supported.

I think it’s arrogant to say that solo play “contributes nothing” just because you, personally, find it trivial.

I think it’s arrogant to expect the game to be balanced around a style of game play that obviously wasn’t intended by the game design. I mean I get some people like it and hooray for them but just because you decide to use a screwdriver like a hammer doesn’t mean the company who designed the screwdriver should change it to support that.

This is what you hear (and what’s expected of you) if you play ele in WvW:

“Get heals on rams.”
“Static now!”
“Meteor those ACs on wall.”

I like to solo camps with d/d, but the borderland bloodlust makes it take forever now.
I hate scepter/anything except for champ farming in frostgorge, or dungeons.

Sometimes I just run around with staff on solo and don’t die, even in zerkers or knights with 0/30/0/10/30, but that’s only because the other players I run into are terrible, and I’ve been playing Ele since day 1. Then I run into an npc, and it takes 5 years to kill it with that same staff on. I don’t usually kill players 1v1 with staff, it’s more of I get away easier because of static field, cripple, frost, sprint. When I get enough range, I waypoint, or swap to d/d and go back and kill the person(s). If it’s engie/warrior with perplexity, I just keep running.

I still feel the ride the lightning nerf wasn’t at all necessary.

Kodiak.3281:

Imagi.4561:

1vX balance can mean a great deal to someone’s gameplay if they prefer soloing in PvE, roaming in WvW, or want to PvP in general. Of course individual play is an aspect of the game that was intended, and should be supported.

I think it’s arrogant to say that solo play “contributes nothing” just because you, personally, find it trivial.

I think it’s arrogant to expect the game to be balanced around a style of game play that obviously wasn’t intended by the game design. I mean I get some people like it and hooray for them but just because you decide to use a screwdriver like a hammer doesn’t mean the company who designed the screwdriver should change it to support that.

How is solo play not “intended by the game design”? If I recall correctly, there is an entire set of quests called the “personal story” that are intended to be played alone.

Zelyhn.8069:

From June 25th patch:

Lava Font: Reduced the cast time from .36 seconds to .2 seconds. Reduced the aftercast from .34 seconds to .2 seconds.

Try it ingame, you can see that the cooldown does not start until a bit after that spell has finished casting. You can estimate this time because the sort of white haze on the skill ticks after the spell is cast.

This is why you do not cast MS every 24s: its cooldown only starts at the end of the cast, so you can only cast it every 28s !

Also you really need to change the way you compute your rotation. You simply can’t assume that you will cast stuff on cd. For instance, the cd of lava font may be up during a MS cast, so you would loose a few seconds (which is a lot for lava font). You need a proper rotation calculator where you iterate each skill.

And after this we need Sabull to check the total animation time of the rotation. This is because, like I told you, the in-game rotation may take a bit more time due to weird casting mechanics and mistakes on frame counting on our behalf.

_

can you recompute all your dps numbers without hunter buffs?

Maybe provide a link here with your updated spreadsheet

_

Did you include the extra sigil for LH ? (it’s like 10% more damage so you know ..)

Yes, I keep telling you dude, I have all the sigils and kitten accounted for. Stop asking.

Also, I use the “cast on CD” model, as you call it, because honestly the difference isn’t that severe. I just changed the numbers to what you suggested (5.2s on Lava Font, 32s on Meteor Shower) just to see what would happen and the end number is still over 17k, which is certainly lower, but it’s still easily the highest DPS number in the game. The reason I do it this way is because it’s simply easier than adding skills until you get a 100% perfect repeatable rotation (trying to find a common multiple on all skill CDs when you’ve got 3-4 different skills with different rotations can be super long) and honestly it doesn’t make a very big difference in the long run. The exception is stuff like Lava Font, where you’ve got one short-recharging skill contributing massive damage on top of a long-casting auto-attack. The rest is simply within the acceptable margin of error. For example, making Meteor Shower 32s versus 28s only altered the end number by about 400 DPS.

Oh, and using my own numbers, without Ranger buffs but everything else, including 25 Perception which is worth more than Bloodlust in this case, 30/20/10/10/0 Staff is worth 14908 DPS while 0/25/20/20/0 Bloodlusted LH is worth 13320. Difference is smaller in this case since Signet of Fire becomes usable as other stats can be substituted for precision to keep you under 100%.

Imagi.4561:

How is solo play not “intended by the game design”? If I recall correctly, there is an entire set of quests called the “personal story” that are intended to be played alone.

Are you somehow trying to imply that the Elementalist, or any class, is incapable at completing the Personal Story?

Or are you just trying to strawman one aspect of game play that was intended to be solo’d in an attempt to justify playing solo in another aspect of game play that wasn’t designed to be played solo?

Kodiak.3281:

Imagi.4561:

How is solo play not “intended by the game design”? If I recall correctly, there is an entire set of quests called the “personal story” that are intended to be played alone.

Are you somehow trying to imply that the Elementalist, or any class, is incapable at completing the Personal Story?

Or are you just trying to strawman one aspect of game play that was intended to be solo’d in an attempt to justify playing solo in another aspect of game play that wasn’t designed to be played solo?

Where did I make such a claim? I provided the personal story as an example, to refute your claim that individual play was not part of ArenaNet’s “design”.

Speaking of logical fallacies, you seem familiar with one called a “red herring.”

Imagi.4561:

Where did I make such a claim? I provided the personal story as an example, to refute your claim that individual play was not part of ArenaNet’s “design”.

Speaking of logical fallacies, you seem familiar with one called a “red herring.”

You mean where someone brings up a completely irrelevant fact (personal story is solo) in order to mislead or detract from the actual issue (wvw/spvp/etc weren’t designed for solo play)?

Yes, you could say I’m in the midst of dealing with one now.

as for 1v1 it is obvious this game was not designed for this mode it is also obvious that it was designed in a way that 1 player can walk alone everyhere in open world and finish all personal stories without any problems (some dungs can be soloed also without any preoblems but thats other topic

As for 1v1, and Colins statement on last PAX “we will add dueling into GW2” I am quite curious how do they plan to do this…. I really hope for separate 1v1 mechanics, different than pve and pvp cuz those 2 are not suitable for duels for obvious reasons… but probably they will do it in the worst possible way so pve/wvw mechanics will be used :/

We only have three skills to factor in, and the rotation you are looking for is the following:
- MS
- LF, 3 FB (begin to cast 4th FB but interrupt it with next line’s LF cast)
- LF, 3 FB
- LF, 3 FB
- LF, 3 FB
- LF, 2 FB
- repeat
total rotation time: 28s (which is MS effective cd, I never talked about 32s …)
Which gives 523 base dps, like I told you. But like I told you this base dps may be lower due to “hidden” time lags.
So we are getting further and further from your “easily calculated” 544 dps.

Ok I can agree with your staff number:
With the build you are stating, perception, signet of fire, sweet and spicy butternut, full war buffs, slaying sigil, and mob-specific potion; you can get to 14650 dps (excluding arcane lightning)

But for LH:
With the build I talked about, bloodlust, sweet and spicy butternut, signet of fire, full war buffs, sigil of slaying, sigil of night, and mob-specific potion you get 16700 dps (excluding arcane lightning)

So LH is better for its duration.

See if you find the same numbers for LH under the same conditions, if not then we must compare our working stats to find where one of us is doing a mistake.

@Zelyhn.8069

I know theorycrafting is cool etc… but while its quite OK for calculating damage for old type MMOs it very unpractical for new, more arcade approach combat system like in tera or GW2 where theorycrafting is far far away from the actual combat damage.

We already have nice dps meter in this game, it is called Lupicus. It simulates real combat enviorement quite well and real life DPS can be measured on him.
At first try to kill him as an staff ele in a time comparable to a naked warrior kill time which is ~10 min like on this movie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISwkOxvxY1o

If you manage to have similar damage as an naked warrior then we can start to talk

Kodiak.3281:

Imagi.4561:

Where did I make such a claim? I provided the personal story as an example, to refute your claim that individual play was not part of ArenaNet’s “design”.

Speaking of logical fallacies, you seem familiar with one called a “red herring.”

You mean where someone brings up a completely irrelevant fact (personal story is solo) in order to mislead or detract from the actual issue (wvw/spvp/etc weren’t designed for solo play)?

Yes, you could say I’m in the midst of dealing with one now.

You made the general statement that solo play was not part of ArenaNet’s design. I provided an example that it was. That’s not an irrelevant fact. That’s a rebuttal.

WvW largely uses the PvE balance dynamic. Since we’ve established that individual balance is a necessity in PvE, this means that it should also be a necessity in WvW. Roaming is particularly a matter of 1vX balance; in a game where every class is supposed to be able to fill multiple roles, it implies imbalance if some classes can roam easily and/or effectively while others cannot.

Since sPvP is used as a forum for people to independently test builds and farm glory, there is an incredibly large 1vX dynamic. Although there are always exceptions, more organized team dynamics are generally relegated to tPvP, where such organization can earn greater rewards.

katniss.6735:

I still feel the ride the lightning nerf wasn’t at all necessary.

^ this, 40 sec cd on ride the lightning really was the buzz kill for me considering I can just go on my Warrior with a GS and run around the whole map.

Even my Engi has better mobility now >_>

Maybe i’ll make a thread, but redoing conjure weapons so they dont have cooldowns, but instead work like Engi kits so you can switch like crazy and do insane combos. Would make this class fun again, or give me back my old D/D ele : P

Lavadiel.6231:

@Zelyhn.8069

I know theorycrafting is cool etc… but while its quite OK for calculating damage for old type MMOs it very unpractical for new, more arcade approach combat system like in tera or GW2 where theorycrafting is far far away from the actual combat damage.

We already have nice dps meter in this game, it is called Lupicus. It simulates real combat enviorement quite well and real life DPS can be measured on him.
At first try to kill him as an staff ele in a time comparable to a naked warrior kill time which is ~10 min like on this movie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISwkOxvxY1o

If you manage to have similar damage as an naked warrior then we can start to talk

you dont know what you are talking about, and you dont even realize it.
you probably dont even know what DPS means.
it doesnt matter if your warrior deals 40k+ with 100b, when an ele can deal more DPS (dps is the key-word here my son) in the same time, even when it shows smaller numbers.

NoTrigger.8396:

Lavadiel.6231:

@Zelyhn.8069

I know theorycrafting is cool etc… but while its quite OK for calculating damage for old type MMOs it very unpractical for new, more arcade approach combat system like in tera or GW2 where theorycrafting is far far away from the actual combat damage.

We already have nice dps meter in this game, it is called Lupicus. It simulates real combat enviorement quite well and real life DPS can be measured on him.
At first try to kill him as an staff ele in a time comparable to a naked warrior kill time which is ~10 min like on this movie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISwkOxvxY1o

If you manage to have similar damage as an naked warrior then we can start to talk

you dont know what you are talking about, and you dont even realize it.

It is easier to make a claim IF you don’t have to explain yourself. Just remember that.

there is no reason to explain myself because this guy already tried to argue with guang.
he is one of the guys who dont want to accept things even when you show them facts.
its waste of time.

NoTrigger.8396:

there is no reason to explain myself because this guy already tried to argue with guang.
he is one of the guys who dont want to accept things even when you show them facts.
its waste of time.

Since you edit your statement above.

You guys keep talking about theorycrafting, how about showing some real world numbers. Actually, show something that is real, that can be compared or all you are saying amounts to conjecture.

It’s called theorycrafting because it sounds cool, but the real name for it is “meauring the white numbers that pop on your screen”

And sometimes we do a bit of “huge would these white numbers be if I changed this little thing here”

NoTrigger.8396:

there is no reason to explain myself because this guy already tried to argue with guang.
he is one of the guys who dont want to accept things even when you show them facts.
its waste of time.

all that I am saying is that staff ele can not kill Lupicus in a comparable time as a naked warrior (ofc without fgs/rush bug).
And you are the one who can not accept the facts – a movie where naked warrior kills Lupi in 10 min – this is a fact while your silly talk is just a silly talk.
Record an ele fight where you kill Lupi in less than 10 min as staff ele. This will be a proof.

Zelyhn.8069:

It’s called theorycrafting because it sounds cool, but the real name for it is “meauring the white numbers that pop on your screen”

And sometimes we do a bit of “huge would these white numbers be if I changed this little thing here”

and in this game it worth not as much…
I also love to theorycraft, I was one of the first ppl who played fist archer (close combat archer) in PerfectWorld and it was rally a crazy thing that can not be compated to anything in gw2. Using theorycrafting I outsmarted the game designers and made 2k$ worth dps toon for a few hundred $.

The thing is Gw2 is not old way combat mmo and all the theoretical stuff, while being fun to make does not reflect the real combat. It is good point to start off but can not be used to prove X has better damage than Y.