Guild Wars 2

Like many of you I was very excited about this GM trait…until now as I didn’t realize an importan factor : the removal of base stats; I don’t know if this is common knowledge already but just to make double sure that people don’t hold too high hopes ( for better or worst).

I will explain this with simple numbers :

Base toughness = 926

Base toughness after patch= 1000

30 Earth/300 toughness= 18.62% damage reduction

Basically Geomancer’s Defense = 30 in Earth more or less, this means no increased defense whatsoever as originally thought, but rather a clever disguise.

So feel free to lay down that tinfoil cap…there is no uber-tank incoming in the near future, if you think I’m wrong try this combo in PvP :

-0/0/4/6/4 with Rock solid, you just miss Stone Heart because we’ll lose Evasive arcane anyway to keep Elemental attunement, the end result now won’t be that dramatic compared to what you’ll get once the changes roll in and you try 0/0/6/6/6

Cheers.

you realize armor stats are getting buffed too right?

Just so you know your also forgetting the addition stats to armor sets. So unless your running full berserker at the moment then you will be buffed through armor stats also. Just an FYI

errr do you know how damage is calculated in this game?

FrownyClown.8402:

you realize armor stats are getting buffed too right?

Where did you get this info?

They’re simply increasing the base attributes from 926 to 1000, they never said they would improve base armor, really where did you get this info?

Base ele armor = 1836 ( base dmg reduction 0)
Base warrior armor= 2093 (base dmg reduction 13%)

Are you saying that they would increase ele base armor to something like 2000?

jingkangtan.6752:

errr do you know how damage is calculated in this game?

maybe you’re using dmg formula…this is dmg reduction based on default armor that for ele is 0% dmg reduction

Ancient Ranger.3276:

Just so you know your also forgetting the addition stats to armor sets. So unless your running full berserker at the moment then you will be buffed through armor stats also. Just an FYI

This is PvP related

With the same trait set up has always been possible to obtain a higher level of toughness in PvE/WvW , this is what you mean and it won’t change ofc.

That’s it to say, while using same runes and trait in PvP, I get like 1400 toughness..but in WvW I can reach 1900 toughness with the same runes and trait set up; a reality that won’t change after the patch

People may be confusing PvE with PvP. Few people think that you’ll have a super ele tank because of geomancer defense…I’ve simply made a clarification : 300 toughness = 18% dmg reduction, they basically exchanged a maxed earth line with a GM minor trait,so no…..there will be no super ele tank in PvP

Who went 6 in earth though? That kind of the point ele is free to put points any where now and still be usable. The single biggest and most important part to the coming update to ele is the base line 10 sec cd on swaps. That and that alone makes this a major buff for the ele class. So will ele be op after the update i am not sure but for once ele can do more then just go 6 in ar over and over.

Jski.6180:

Who went 6 in earth though? That kind of the point ele is free to put points any where now and still be usable. The single biggest and most important part to the coming update to ele is the base line 10 sec cd on swaps. That and that alone makes this a major buff for the ele class. So will ele be op after the update i am not sure but for once ele can do more then just go 6 in ar over and over.

Do you guys even realize the disturbing truth about this changes?

Anet is trying to integrate base stats in minor traits and this won’t be even the case for the majority of other stats and do you know what this means?

Forget running an amulet on ele that lack vitality, unless you want to run around with 10K HP, they will lock each profession on a given set of amulet to simply balance for them..but completely removing the freedom from us.

I’m sure that they won’t add vitality to every current amulet that lack vitality stat and what that means is that ele will be able to run only : soldier,zerker and celestial
(sentinel or rampage if you like it)….really…

Supreme.3164:

FrownyClown.8402:

you realize armor stats are getting buffed too right?

Where did you get this info?

They’re simply increasing the base attributes from 926 to 1000, they never said they would improve base armor, really where did you get this info?

Base ele armor = 1836 ( base dmg reduction 0)
Base warrior armor= 2093 (base dmg reduction 13%)

Are you saying that they would increase ele base armor to something like 2000?

armor as in gear.

Supreme.3164:

Jski.6180:

Who went 6 in earth though? That kind of the point ele is free to put points any where now and still be usable. The single biggest and most important part to the coming update to ele is the base line 10 sec cd on swaps. That and that alone makes this a major buff for the ele class. So will ele be op after the update i am not sure but for once ele can do more then just go 6 in ar over and over.

Do you guys even realize the disturbing truth about this changes?

Anet is trying to integrate base stats in minor traits and this won’t be even the case for the majority of other stats and do you know what this means?

Forget running an amulet on ele that lack vitality, unless you want to run around with 10K HP, they will lock each profession on a given set of amulet to simply balance for them..but completely removing the freedom from us.

I’m sure that they won’t add vitality to every current amulet that lack vitality stat and what that means is that ele will be able to run only : soldier,zerker and celestial
(sentinel or rampage if you like it)….really…

No… you do not lose freedom if any thing you get more freedom of how you want to set up your trait line the main effect in GW2 that set up how your skills work. Armor cant make your stuns do added dmg and apply weakness nor can they make you cd lower nor do they make immune to conditions. Armor works out to be how much dmg you can do and how much you can take and as we get more and more sets of armor you get more and more chose in how your dmg / staying power you want to use.

I will explain again :

-Right now, you can have a cleric/settler or valkyrie ele because you can at least get 300 vitality by going into water

-They’ll remove vitality as stat from water line…forget about cleric/valk or settler ele, unless you want to run around with 10k HP

-Ele is now forced to use amulets that have vitality in it

-There is far less choice and far less freedom, but for them the game becomes easier to balance, make sense?

FrownyClown.8402:

Supreme.3164:

FrownyClown.8402:

you realize armor stats are getting buffed too right?

Where did you get this info?

They’re simply increasing the base attributes from 926 to 1000, they never said they would improve base armor, really where did you get this info?

Base ele armor = 1836 ( base dmg reduction 0)
Base warrior armor= 2093 (base dmg reduction 13%)

Are you saying that they would increase ele base armor to something like 2000?

armor as in gear.

There is no gear in PvP, only amulet and runes

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/specializations-part-one-a-primer/

“Base attribute points on equipment will be increased so that all the gear in the game will give higher stats than it did before. This should account for most of the missing points.”

Neko.9021:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/specializations-part-one-a-primer/

“Base attribute points on equipment will be increased so that all the gear in the game will give higher stats than it did before. This should account for most of the missing points.”

This goes for PvE only where gear is present, nothing from the status quo will change, in PvE you will still be able to have higher stats than PvP, my point is that geomancer’s defense is not a gift as many think, it’s simply the equivalent of a maxed current earth trait line, aka 300 toughness….

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Impact-on-PVP-with-no-stats-from-traits/first#post5004601

“The amulets will be rebalanced to compensate for the loss of stats originally gained from trait lines.

This is probably as good of a place as any to mention that we’ll also be using this opportunity to rebalance PvP’s celestial amulet to be slightly less effective. We’re probably looking at a 10%~ decrease in overall stats, but this number can change as we draw closer to releasing the core specialization changes."

The only thing that remains to be seen is exactly how they are planning to balance pvp amulets. Hopefully they hybridize amulets more (so we can get more amulets that have some vit on it), or move to a 2 amulet/ amulet + jewel system again to allow for some more variability.

Also, Supreme, this trait is a 20% damage reduction regardless of your toughness, so the effective toughness INCREASES with more toughness. Base ARMOR (damage is reduced by 1/ARMOR) is 1814, so -20% damage is the equivalent of 362 toughness on a spec with no other sources of toughness (which increases armor). Cele ele has 2252 ARMOR before traiting into earth, making -20% damage the equivalent of 563 armor. Put on a Soldier’s amulet and that -20% is worth 616 equivalent toughness. Thus, a net buff for everything, especially tanky builds.

BlackBeard.2873:

The only thing that remains to be seen is exactly how they are planning to balance pvp amulets. Hopefully they hybridize amulets more (so we can get more amulets that have some vit on it), or move to a 2 amulet/ amulet + jewel system again to allow for some more variability.

At least you get what I’m trying to say..and no, I don’t think anet will add vit to more amulets or even jewels.

They even nerfed celestial, the intention is to reduce headaches for themselves while massively reducing build diversity for players…yeah what people thought would be a massive power creeep..it’s in reality a massive nerf lol

-edit the least they could do is increase stats of runes…but that’s really a stretch.
I have realized what are anet intention, they want to create a close environment where it’s easier to monitor our actions….like animals in a large zoo, loads of space to give the illusion of freedom..but it’s still a cage.

After patch, traiting 30 in earth will give you nothing that’s why the GM minor trait is there, it’s a substitute for the 300 toughness you’d get otherwise, in the end you lose and gain nothing. And yes -20% dmg is the equivalent of 362 toughness, this was explained in the OP

-edit- Forgot to mention that the trait will work only within 600 range…
This will make a fight vs mesmers or rangers just that much harder lol

Supreme.3164:

After patch, traiting 30 in earth will give you nothing that’s why the GM minor trait is there, it’s a substitute for the 300 toughness you’d get otherwise, in the end you lose and gain nothing. And yes -20% dmg is the equivalent of 362 toughness, this was explained in the OP

-edit- Forgot to mention that the trait will work only within 600 range…
This will make a fight vs mesmers or rangers just that much harder lol

d/d will probably see the most use out of going into earth. cele builds will probably just be 00666 now. Its still a buff and its not anything you have to trait for either. I dont see many high dps builds investing in that traitline.

FrownyClown.8402:

Supreme.3164:

After patch, traiting 30 in earth will give you nothing that’s why the GM minor trait is there, it’s a substitute for the 300 toughness you’d get otherwise, in the end you lose and gain nothing. And yes -20% dmg is the equivalent of 362 toughness, this was explained in the OP

-edit- Forgot to mention that the trait will work only within 600 range…
This will make a fight vs mesmers or rangers just that much harder lol

d/d will probably see the most use out of going into earth. cele builds will probably just be 00666 now. Its still a buff and its not anything you have to trait for either. I dont see many high dps builds investing in that traitline.

I can see a staff ele getting use out of it in say wvw with a 06660 build a max cc build with vonablitly dmg spiking. Earth is made to be the high def line but there some good cc on earth for staff. So can get -33% to movement effects and -20% dmg taken at melee ranges with some nice cdr for earth its only the 6th that a bit hard to chose i feel dimon skin for early anty soft cc.

To bring it back to my point this update is more then just simple buff and nerf to trait lines its about freeing up chose for ele and its not a far fetch ideal for ele to run 3 lines of any type on any wepon and still be usable. -20% dmg take at melee ranges is only a small part of why you would want to go 6 in earth.

Few things wrong with OP’s argument:

(1) Math is off. Adding 300 toughness on a celestial D/D build means you take roughly 11% less damage than a D/D build without the bonus 300 toughness. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage

(2) Current “tanky” ele builds only take 10 in earth, not 30. So you’re making up a stat loss that doesn’t even exist.

(3) You’re also forgetting about the synergy between elemental shielding and the increased access to auras.

ResJudicator.7916:

Few things wrong with OP’s argument:

(1) Math is off. Adding 300 toughness on a celestial D/D build means you take roughly 11% less damage than a D/D build without the bonus 300 toughness. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage

(2) Current “tanky” ele builds only take 10 in earth, not 30. So you’re making up a stat loss that doesn’t even exist.

(3) You’re also forgetting about the synergy between elemental shielding and the increased access to auras.

Not to mention that gear and amulets are supposed to be buffed to compensate for the loss of stats, as I posted earlier.

OP is right basically ANet is saying us with the current diversity they can’t balance this game.

Think like this, when you invest 5 trait lines at the moment, you will get 10 sort of stats.

Most stat combinations on gear you have at the moment 3 and the exception is Celestial, which is 5.

So either you think they will change every time of armor in the game and they will more then 3 stats or you have to use in every slot a different gear and build a salad and most probably even that would not be enough.

This whole patch seems to me, ANet will design all class to function one way and dictate their view to us so that we should play the class that way.

I find that sad, one of the things that alway bring me back to GW2 was the build diversity, it seems it will not going to exist anymore.

It all comes to ANet inability to balance this game, in computer science is nearly nothing is impossible, the possibilities are always related to how much resource you want to dedicate to the problem.

ANet says to us, we want to be cheap, we don’t want to dedicate so many people to balancing, we will give so many build and you have to live with that.

You want proof, why we have to choose 3 trait lines out of 5 and can’t use other 2 at all? Why will have only 3 stats on the gear but all possible 10 from trait lines?

What makes me really sour, if I really have to make gear salad to achieve the stats I want and for that I have to re-grind and craft all my ascended gear again, I am out of town then.

One thing I really curious about is the boon duration, it was not available any gear and now it is not on Arcana trait line so how are we getting it now, if it is only accessible via rune that will be also a nerf to Ele.

ResJudicator.7916:

Few things wrong with OP’s argument:

(1) Math is off. Adding 300 toughness on a celestial D/D build means you take roughly 11% less damage than a D/D build without the bonus 300 toughness. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage

(2) Current “tanky” ele builds only take 10 in earth, not 30. So you’re making up a stat loss that doesn’t even exist.

(3) You’re also forgetting about the synergy between elemental shielding and the increased access to auras.

Hmm, so my math is wrong..kk, here we go:

Damage= (weapon strength X power X skill dmg coef)/armor

I will use sword = savage leap as test subject on an ele base armor

-Sword : 1050 (weapon strength)
-Savage Leap : 0 .75 (dmg coefficient)
-Ele base armor= 1814
-Example power = 2000

Using the formula : (1050 * 2000 * 0.75)/ 1814 = 1,575,000/1814 = 868 damage done

-Add 300 toughness to the ele, thus increasing armor by 300 pts = 2114

-So let’s us know calculate the dmg done with new armor levels : 1,575,000/2114 = 745 damage

-Now calculate the percentage difference between the two sources of damage:

[(868 – 745)/ 745 ] * 100 = 16.5%

The formula doesn’t take in consideration: crit dmg, sigil etc..still we’re pretty darn close to the 18% dmg reduction as I’ve explained in the OP don’t you agree?

Now let’s use the celestial amulet example :

-The amulet now add 434 toughness so armor level for the formula is 2252

1,575,000/2252 =699

-Add 300 toughness to d/d ele celestial

1,575,000/2552= 617

Let’s calculate the percentage difference :

- [(699-617)/617] * 100 = 13%

And here kicks in diminishing return , as toughness levels increase, the protection you receive out of it will decrease in quality:

Assume a 2,000,000 theoretical damage.
2000 Armour = 1000 Damager per hit
3000 Armour = 666 Damage per hit (I reduction of 334 damage for 1000 armour)
4000 Armour = 500 Damage per hit (I reduction of 166 damage for 1000 armour)
5000 Armour = 400 Damage per hit (I reduction of 100 damage for 1000 armour)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplicative_inverse

So in the end..you didn’t do any math

FrownyClown.8402:

Supreme.3164:

After patch, traiting 30 in earth will give you nothing that’s why the GM minor trait is there, it’s a substitute for the 300 toughness you’d get otherwise, in the end you lose and gain nothing. And yes -20% dmg is the equivalent of 362 toughness, this was explained in the OP

-edit- Forgot to mention that the trait will work only within 600 range…
This will make a fight vs mesmers or rangers just that much harder lol

d/d will probably see the most use out of going into earth. cele builds will probably just be 00666 now. Its still a buff and its not anything you have to trait for either. I dont see many high dps builds investing in that traitline.

Be forced to even pick a trait over the lost stats would be the cherry on the cake, guess it’s “nice” of them to give us an important lost stat as GM minor and GM major…an act of mercy I’d say

Neko.9021:

ResJudicator.7916:

Few things wrong with OP’s argument:

(1) Math is off. Adding 300 toughness on a celestial D/D build means you take roughly 11% less damage than a D/D build without the bonus 300 toughness. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage

(2) Current “tanky” ele builds only take 10 in earth, not 30. So you’re making up a stat loss that doesn’t even exist.

(3) You’re also forgetting about the synergy between elemental shielding and the increased access to auras.

Not to mention that gear and amulets are supposed to be buffed to compensate for the loss of stats, as I posted earlier.

There is no gear in PvP, only amulets.

They will increase stats on amulets,they won’t add new stats on amulets, they’re removing options, they’re not increasing them! With the new system you’ll be forced to pick only amulets with vitality already built into it…to be considered seriously in PvP

all amulets (in pvp) and armor (in pve) will get additional stats, they stated this. the only question is how many and which ones.

Jekkt.6045:

all amulets (in pvp) and armor (in pve) will get additional stats, they stated this. the only question is how many and which ones.

Irrc, they also stated that the cele amu in pvp will receive a 10% reduction in effectiveness.

The biggest problem with removing stats is that in PvP there isn’t a spread of them. For example you could (in theory) currently go 6 into Earth and pick up 300 Toughness that you don’t get if you take a Berserker Amulet. While you will pick up 74 base stats (power, prec, etc) it also doesn’t answer what happens to non-base stats like condi damage, healing power, etc that we got before. This can make something like Celestial, which works well with an additional 100 Toughness and 300 Vit/Heal, now problematic because it doesn’t give enough of any particular stat to make it work (let alone the fact they are reducing it further).

I imagine that Geomancer’s Defense will help with the the stats but I don’t see it necessarily as designed entirely to act as a replacement to the toughness there. Honestly without Geomancer’s Defense this entire line would be forgettable as you’d really only spec it for the Grandmaster now that Earth’s Embrace is down to 25% HP.

Honestly removing the 800 stat points just shows how limited the amulet system is and hopefully they will do something more dynamic like simply give you 2000 (or whatever) selectable attributes for the entire character. Basically what you can do for PvE/WvW.

Supreme.3164:

Let’s calculate the percentage difference :

- [(699-617)/617] * 100 = 13%

FYI, all the other variables cancel out so you can just divide [new armor] / [old armor] to get the increase in dmg reduction. Hope this helps the next time.

The 13% you arrived at is much closer to the 11% I did in my head than the 18% you originally claimed. And your 13% is also still a bit too high, because you left out the earth minor trait that adds base toughness and isn’t going away.

So your explanation is still not right.

Guys, there is no debate here. The only question is how will the devs allocate the 1400 compensating stats points on gear and amulets.

Supreme.3164:

ResJudicator.7916:

Few things wrong with OP’s argument:

(1) Math is off. Adding 300 toughness on a celestial D/D build means you take roughly 11% less damage than a D/D build without the bonus 300 toughness. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage

(2) Current “tanky” ele builds only take 10 in earth, not 30. So you’re making up a stat loss that doesn’t even exist.

(3) You’re also forgetting about the synergy between elemental shielding and the increased access to auras.

Hmm, so my math is wrong..kk, here we go:

Damage= (weapon strength X power X skill dmg coef)/armor

I will use sword = savage leap as test subject on an ele base armor

-Sword : 1050 (weapon strength)
-Savage Leap : 0 .75 (dmg coefficient)
-Ele base armor= 1814
-Example power = 2000

Using the formula : (1050 * 2000 * 0.75)/ 1814 = 1,575,000/1814 = 868 damage done

-Add 300 toughness to the ele, thus increasing armor by 300 pts = 2114

-So let’s us know calculate the dmg done with new armor levels : 1,575,000/2114 = 745 damage

-Now calculate the percentage difference between the two sources of damage:

[(868 – 745)/ 745 ] * 100 = 16.5%

The formula doesn’t take in consideration: crit dmg, sigil etc..still we’re pretty darn close to the 18% dmg reduction as I’ve explained in the OP don’t you agree?

Now let’s use the celestial amulet example :

-The amulet now add 434 toughness so armor level for the formula is 2252

1,575,000/2252 =699

-Add 300 toughness to d/d ele celestial

1,575,000/2552= 617

Let’s calculate the percentage difference :

- [(699-617)/617] * 100 = 13%

And here kicks in diminishing return , as toughness levels increase, the protection you receive out of it will decrease in quality:

Assume a 2,000,000 theoretical damage.
2000 Armour = 1000 Damager per hit
3000 Armour = 666 Damage per hit (I reduction of 334 damage for 1000 armour)
4000 Armour = 500 Damage per hit (I reduction of 166 damage for 1000 armour)
5000 Armour = 400 Damage per hit (I reduction of 100 damage for 1000 armour)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplicative_inverse

So in the end..you didn’t do any math

\

Damage= (weapon strength X power X skill dmg coef)/armor
I will use sword = savage leap as test subject on an ele base armor
-Sword : 1050 (weapon strength)
-Savage Leap : 0 .75 (dmg coefficient)
-Ele base armor= 1814
-Example power = 2000
Using the formula : (1050 * 2000 * 0.75)/ 1814 = 1,575,000/1814 = 868 damage done

to calculate damage modifiers you need to do (armor* negative coefficient)

1814*1.2=2177
1575000/2177=723
(868-723)/723*100= 20%

now lets add celestial. armor is now 2453. with damage modifier it is 2944 (2453*1.2)
1575000/2453=642
1575000/2944=535
(642-535)\535*100= 20%

There is no diminishing return. any positive damage modifiers the enemy has will probably be canceled out by this negative damage modifier anyhow.

FrownyClown.8402:

Damage= (weapon strength X power X skill dmg coef)/armor
I will use sword = savage leap as test subject on an ele base armor
-Sword : 1050 (weapon strength)
-Savage Leap : 0 .75 (dmg coefficient)
-Ele base armor= 1814
-Example power = 2000
Using the formula : (1050 * 2000 * 0.75)/ 1814 = 1,575,000/1814 = 868 damage done

to calculate damage modifiers you need to do (armor* negative coefficient)

1814*1.2=2177
1575000/2177=723
(868-723)/723*100= 20%

now lets add celestial. armor is now 2453. with damage modifier it is 2944 (2453*1.2)
1575000/2453=642
1575000/2944=535
(642-535)\535*100= 20%

There is no diminishing return. any positive damage modifiers the enemy has will probably be canceled out by this negative damage modifier anyhow.

That’s not quite right. There is no diminishing return on Effective HP (which is a function of your health and armor). EHP scales linearly with both vitality and toughness, and it measures your overall ability to absorb damage.

However, there are diminishing returns on how much additional % damage reduction each additional point of armor/toughness gives. You don’t get an additional 12% damage reduction or whatever for every 300 points of armor. That number will decrease.

Here’s a really old post that lays out the math and explains it in more detail than I have time to:
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/60838-math-damage-reduction-toughness-and-vitality/

ResJudicator.7916:

FrownyClown.8402:

Damage= (weapon strength X power X skill dmg coef)/armor
I will use sword = savage leap as test subject on an ele base armor
-Sword : 1050 (weapon strength)
-Savage Leap : 0 .75 (dmg coefficient)
-Ele base armor= 1814
-Example power = 2000
Using the formula : (1050 * 2000 * 0.75)/ 1814 = 1,575,000/1814 = 868 damage done

to calculate damage modifiers you need to do (armor* negative coefficient)

1814*1.2=2177
1575000/2177=723
(868-723)/723*100= 20%

now lets add celestial. armor is now 2453. with damage modifier it is 2944 (2453*1.2)
1575000/2453=642
1575000/2944=535
(642-535)\535*100= 20%

There is no diminishing return. any positive damage modifiers the enemy has will probably be canceled out by this negative damage modifier anyhow.

That’s not quite right. There is no diminishing return on Effective HP (which is a function of your health and armor). EHP scales linearly with both vitality and toughness, and it measures your overall ability to absorb damage.

However, there are diminishing returns on how much additional % damage reduction each additional point of armor/toughness gives. You don’t get an additional 12% damage reduction or whatever for every 300 points of armor. That number will decrease.

Here’s a really old post that lays out the math and explains it in more detail than I have time to:
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/60838-math-damage-reduction-toughness-and-vitality/

ill take your word for it. i dont like math