Guild Wars 2

How do people feel about basically runes that increase the duration of might stacking vs a rune that gives you near permafury and flat out more bonus stats?

I would like to analyze the might stacking with Pack runes first.

With Pack runes

- Sigil of Battle: Might lasts about 26 seconds and the swap is every 10 seconds or so. On average with this sigil you can maintain around 7.8 stacks of might

- Rune proc: Might lasts 13 seconds on a 20 second CD. You maintain approximately 0.65 stacks of might with this proc.

- A very common might-stacking combo: Usually the might stacking combo might be something like Ring of fire —--> Frozen burst —-—> Evasive arcana in Earth —-—> Magnetic Leap into Fire Field for Fire Shield.

Let us say that this whole combo/rotation can be done once every 25 seconds (due to a lot of factors involved).

Frozen Burst and Evasive Arcana will give you 6 stacks of might lasting 20 seconds. Fire Shield lasts 5 seconds and grants you might for 10 seconds. Let us assume you get hit 2 times as a very conservative estimate. So that is 2 stacks of might from fire shield.

You can maintain an average around 4.8 stacks of might with the blasting + 0.8 stacks of might to a total of 5.6 stacks of might.

And lastly with fire attunement swap you get 19 and a half stacks of might. Let us round this off to 20 seconds. Fire swap is every 10 seconds so you can maintain 2 stacks of might permanently.

Together, given idealistic situations, Pack runes can maintain around 16 stacks of might during a fight. Honestly not bad at all. Realistically it would probably be around 12 stacks due to less than ideal circumstances.

Strength Runes:

Sigil of Battle: Average 14.2 stacks of might permanently
Rune Proc: Round this off to an average of 2 might stacks permanently
Might stacking Combo: 11.75 stacks of might approximately
Fire Attunement: 2.8 Might stacks permanently

As you can see the might stacks add up to above the cap, close to 31 permanent might stacks. This means that even in less than ideal situations, you can still maintain about 25 stacks of might. It has about twice the might stacking capability of pack runes. However it does take awhile to ramp up, which is the downside. Probably around 40 seconds of straight up combat, which we all know sometimes fights don’t last that long.

Hoelbrak

Sigil of Battle – Around 13.2 stacks of might
Rune Proc – Around 3.4 stacks of might
Might Combo – Around 10.27 might stacks
Fire Attunement – Around 2.5 might stacks

With Hoelbrak you can keep around 29 might stacks permanently. The 15% extra might duration doesn’t make a huge difference due to the multitude of ways an Ele can stack might. Plus the long duration of might from rune procs kind of offsets that as well. You can definitely keep near permanent 25 might stacks in ideal situations. This is why i think people opt for Hoelbrak runes. There isn’t a huge difference in might stacking and the -20% condition duration in many cases is better than the 5% damage you get from strength.

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So, I have two builds here that I like to use for roaming in WvW and I would like to compare the damage that I would get from each build. Each have been adjusted to have comparable stats.

Build #1: Pack Runes

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fFEQJAoYhcM6b25wwBd0AdAB5xzvRBlzbnB-TFyHwAdV/xpSweKxGq8YwDAQ1+Du1DA4EAEAABghO0hO0duzSBYuyI-w

Strength Runes/Hoelbrak runes

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fFEQJAoYhcM6b25wwBd0APAC5fD3JKQ5qJfC-TFyHwAdV/Rz+DOVC2TJ0QlPDeAAu1DA4EAEAABghO0hO0duzSBYuyI-w

On average, without might stacking, the build that uses pack runes does about 11.5% more DPS than hoelbrak runes and about 7.2% more DPS than Strength runes. Strength runes about 4.4% more DPS.

The pack rune build is about 2.7% more burstier (meaning damage dealt on a critical hit) than the strength rune and about 7.2% more burstier than the Hoelbrak. Strength about 4.5% more burstier than Hoelbrak. Damage increase seems to be a little less than 5% in calculations for some reason.

However if we add might into the equation, it becomes a totally different story.

Power with max sustained stacks of might (Pack): 2504
Power with max sustained stacks of might (Strength/Hoelbrak): 2788

Strength/Hoelbrak has about 10.2% more power than the Pack which means a corresponding 10.2% damage increase.

So with the maximum potential stacks of might, Strength out DPS’es Pack by about 2.8%. Pack actually outdpses Hoelbrak by 1.4% and Strength outdpses Hoelbrak by about 4.2%.

In terms of burst, strength out bursts pack by about 7.3%, Hoelbrak outbursts it by 3.3% and Strength outbursts hoelbrak by about 4%.

Intangibles/Underlying Assumptions:

Might stacking, as you obviously know, not only adds power but also condition damage. I have only judged DPS in terms of raw power. If taking this into account. Build with the pack runes have 896 condition damage and the build with strength/hoelbrak have 1111. That is a 215 condition damage difference approximately. Since the elementalist’s main condition is burning, this adds about 54 extra damage on burning. It is very hard to account for this without assigning some very arbitrary number.

However, with the pack rune build you have 543 burn ticks and the strength rune build you have 603 burn ticks. This is about a 10.5% increase in burn DPS. Now estimate how much of your total damage is caused by burn. If you estimate around 20% of your total damage, then that represents a 2.1% increase in your DPS, which honestly doesn’t seem like too much of a stretch. If you have bleeds and poison this could possibly be bumped up to a 3% DPS increase.

Also, I make the assumption that we are always at our maximum potential of might stacks. As we all know in the real world, this doesn’t hold true all the time.

Also, might stacks can be removed very easily by boon stripping and it takes a significant ramping up period to achieve 25 might stacks. The fight might be over before you even get there.

Another thing, Pack runes can keep up Fury better than Strength/Hoelbrak. 13.5 seconds of fury every 20 seconds. Assuming you switch attunements every 5 seconds or so, that is permanent fury. Zephyrs boon can help you maintain fury in a short period of time but over a longer period there will be moments where you have no fury.

If you run with a group that can keep you at 25 might stacks and as well help you alleviate conditions, then Pack seems like the superior choice.

Conclusions:

My conclusion is that all of these rune sets are highly viable, and you aren’t at a disadvantage if you pick one over the other. Clearly however, Pack runes give you the best bang for your buck.

10% extra damage does add a lot of damage and does offset any might stacking deficiencies you might have. In a normal power build this accounts for around 6 stacks of might excluding the condition damage. 10 in Earth is a decent choice to look at if you lack might stacking ability or damage. The permafury and extra swiftness you get from Pack allows you to forgo Zephyr’s Boon entirely.

Pack runes with the 10% damage from earth clearly can outDPS a Strength/Hoelbrak build without might stacks. Although all of these builds are still might dependent, Pack’s dependency is clearly much less because of the damage it can deal pre-might. The initial burst between Pack and Strength isn’t large of a difference, Hoelbrak is clearly less.

Even with maximum potential might stacks, Pack really isn’t far behind Strength in the DPS department, in fact, it still outdamages Hoelbrak, although by a tiny margin.

The biggest difference is the burst you are capable of with your maximum potential amount of might stacks. A 4K Burning speed with Pack would hit around 4.4K with Strength.

IMO, based on this information, Pack runes would be the way to go if you are running in a group that can keep you at 25 might stacks and can help clear conditions for you.

Hoelbrak seems like the way to go if you find yourself outnumbered or in 1VX situations.

Strength seems to be best in groups who don’t have a whole lot of might-stacking capability, but without condition removal from others may be overwhelmed at times.

But given the abundance of condi builds you find in roamers, the -20% condi duration seems to be a much better tradeoff than the 5% dmg and 15% might duration you get from strength.

This honestly changes my outlook on things and I may start running pack now, while keeping a hoelbrak set just in case of condi roamers. I will however play quite a bit of tPvP to really just get a general feel of each rune and compare them better in practicality.

oi, nice info mate. i’m pretty sure you’re using some sort of xls sheet, so could you crunch the numbers for travelers rune and rune of rage for me pls?

thx a lot

edit: my own research by simply trying it out on the golems, tells me :

2 rotations (RoF> water att> frozen burst>earth att> shock wave, earth quake>fire att>burning speed>RoF>water att>frozen burst>earth att> shock wave) net me

permanent 14 stacks, peak 19 on traveler
permanent 16 stacks, peak 22 on rage

although i don’t know why i get higher with rage...

I don’t think you would need to even crunch numbers to see that that Rage would be much better than Traveler’s in terms of damage.

Rage gives you alot of fury uptime, a % damage increase and a lot of ferocity. Travelers just gives you minor flat stat increases. Although you should of probably gotten higher might stacks because travelers gives you boon duration.

at the moment, i would say, traveler is a good alternative to strength for pvp, because of boon duration and speed increase. it pretty much suits the "i go where i am needed, but i am needed everywhere" playstyle of the d/d elementalist. pack is not really doing it for me and rage,... the crit chance is still too low on a d/d to get something out of the increased ferocity.

Hmm. i was actually just about to ask if it would be worth getting rid of my strength runes for hoelbrak since i pretty much only run into condi bunkers when roaming alone. I thought it would be a huge loss in dps if i did and was trying to decide if it was worth it or not. Doesn’t seem like a huge difference though. So thanks for this.

I mean, is it really noticeable anyway if i’m running lemongrass and the hoelbrak runes too for 60% reduction? I use them on my warrior, but warrior is so tanky and has so many blocks, invulnerables, etc that its hard to tell if the runes actually make a difference or its just the warrior’s natural survivability that lets me pretty much ignore conditions.

Nikkinella.8254:

Hmm. i was actually just about to ask if it would be worth getting rid of my strength runes for hoelbrak since i pretty much only run into condi bunkers when roaming alone. I thought it would be a huge loss in dps if i did and was trying to decide if it was worth it or not. Doesn’t seem like a huge difference though. So thanks for this.

I mean, is it really noticeable anyway if i’m running lemongrass and the hoelbrak runes too for 60% reduction? I use them on my warrior, but warrior is so tanky and has so many blocks, invulnerables, etc that its hard to tell if the runes actually make a difference or its just the warrior’s natural survivability that lets me pretty much ignore conditions.

When you look at the big picture of things you are right, the 5% dmg strength you get isn’t a huge difference. In many cases it is slightly less than that. With maximum might stacking it brings it toward 5-7%. If you can get off extra attacks due to the negative condition duration and if it keeps you in the fight longer it is definitely worth it.

As far as it being noticeable, yes and no. No in terms of sometimes conditions last ridiculously long to begin with that even a 60% reduction doesn’t help that much. Such as is the case for Warriors that by the time bleeds end you would have already cleansed it long before.

In 1vX situations it may not be immediately noticeable, but all these burns, bleeds, poisons you are getting for 8 seconds you find are only lasting around 3-4 seconds. And all these individual conditions that are being put on you and being reduced add up in the end to a lot of damage mitigated. Chills, immobilizes and cripples in most cases do feel much shorter, however sometimes if you do get focused and condi bombed by 2+ people, there really isn’t much that you can do.

You probably still won’t be able to beat perplexity thieves or PU Condi Mesmers because of their stealth and kiting. Terrormancers definitely become less of a counter. Can’t guarantee it a win though.

Hoelbrak will definitely help you versus the average condi roamer, definitely help you in 1vX fights even if you aren’t fighting purely condi builds. However just realize there are a few condi builds you flat out just aren’t beating if they know how to use it.

Also realize that if you do use the lemongrass you trade the omnomberry pies, which give you alot of sustain as well as well as damage.

I guess i could always get some exotic armor and see if i like it rather than replacing the runes on my ascended gear. I could always salvage it and get the runes back atleast. Sometimes I wish we had a system similar to spvp but only for the runes and sigils, not the armor since i like mixing different types of armor. Just pay a 1 time cost in gold to unlock runes and sigils, then be able to swap them anytime we want for free. it would be so convenient.

Thanks for your help and giving such a thorough explanation.

this would lead to a total economical breakdown

so, mr. OP: i need you services once again:

i am currently testing a combination of traveler/valkyrie for my d/d spec but i would really love to run the numbers against a celestial/strength combo. my problem is, i don’t have the resources. is there an existing spredsheet somewhere? if you have one, would you either link it to me or just crunch the numbers on those two combos for me pls?

if you can give me the exact the builds that you are proposing i can probably help

cool, i will put it in the buildthing then and link it

classic with cele strength combo
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fFAQJAoYhcMKc25wxBd0AiAB5skqRBlfHTB-TJRHwAFOBAc2fAwDA4YZAA

classic with valkyrie/traveler combo
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fFAQJAoYhcMKc25wxBd0AiAB5skqRBlfHTB-TJRHwALLDU4EAke/BAPAAA

and for funsies:
alternate skyhammer anti thief build
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fFAQJAoYhcMKc25wxBd0AaAB50syhBTF/nB-TJRHwAQLDU4EAIc/BAPAAA

Hoelbrak is widely known as the replacement for strength runes though strength has overall better damage, but not by a big margin.

Hoelbrak – Very highly recommended for DnD builds

Thanks for doing this man!. I always thought pack would be best for s/f ele but I’m wondering if rage would be better? I mean when I swap to air I get fury so each one of my fresh air bursts will get a damage bonus. thoughts?

law.9410:

Thanks for doing this man!. I always thought pack would be best for s/f ele but I’m wondering if rage would be better? I mean when I swap to air I get fury so each one of my fresh air bursts will get a damage bonus. thoughts?

I could actually answer that one. Rage is actually really good for burst builds. I haven’t used them on ele yet, but they work great on a med guardian with the fury on meditation trait. They actually work better than scholar runes. I would assume the same would be true for a burst ele since you wont be stacking might anyway.