(edited by Zonzai.2341)
I want to be a ranged 1200 ranged dps spellcaster
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@Kodiak.3281
You like it the best, therefor it is the best. I’m not here to argue preferences. I would actually prefer it if elementalists never used daggers and always used staves. So we can at least agree that I too prefer that you use a staff.
Maybe it’s just me, but I find elementalists to be more of a chew toy than any other profession, and among elementalists, I find staff elementalists to be the chewiest of them all. Granted I do run into the occasional bunker elementalist. They’re tough but harmless.
I think this conversation is pretty much over at this point. I hope you all convince many noobs to play staff elementalists.
Uhm I never once mentioned what weapon I use (I swap pretty heavily from S/D, S/F and Staff) nor did I state what I thought was best. The only thing I really talked to in fact was comparing classes.
This kinda really brings into question whether or not you even read the posts you’re replying to and if anyone should really bother with what you have to say.
Kodiak X – Blackgate
DesertRose.2031If you have played GW1 you have already experienced that all kinds of mages are support while the physicals are the damage dealers; I am wondering why you expected that GW2 would totally break with its predecessor’s general profession designs.
while this was true in GW1 you have to remember that GW2 was advertised and marketed as everyone can do everything the trinity is gone. Instead you have support DPS and control skills. I think that The OP and many Ele’s just figured Elementalist would be primarily ranged. But so many run with at least one dagger and are in melee. It’s funny the Dagger/dagger Ele is the only pure melee in the game since other classes can swap to a ranged weapon mid combat.
But either way its not about that. Its about the archetype. Elementalist dont fit what a lot of people thought they were going to be as an archetype. When people generally think wizard, mage, elementalist, shaman, sorcerer and those types of archetypes. Daggers in melee isn’t what comes to mind Merlin, Gandalf and such is what we picture.
Lets take thieves for example. They use swords, daggers bows and guns. Now Imagine if they also gave thieves Staves. Now imagine if those staves were also the thieves most damaging weapons. And most thieves ran around with staffs. People would complain the same as here. Because it doesn’t fit the archetype of thief to shoot magic out of a staff.
Like I said I love the daggers. But I definitely get why people are upset about it.
Edit
After I posted this I realized there is a class in this forum having that problem. Guardians and their “Magical tennis ball” Scepter. A lot of them hat the look because it doesn’t fit what they feel a guardian (Paladin) should feel like
(edited by Lokki.1092)
@Kodiak.3281
Sorry, that was meant for incisorr.9502. I just nabbed the wrong name somehow. My bad. I fixed it now.
@Lokki.1092
You’re probably right about the expectation of it being different. I hadn’t thought of that before. Scepters should be the support weapon, they’re lame anyway.
DesertRose.2031If you have played GW1 you have already experienced that all kinds of mages are support while the physicals are the damage dealers; I am wondering why you expected that GW2 would totally break with its predecessor’s general profession designs.
while this was true in GW1 you have to remember that GW2 was advertised and marketed as everyone can do everything the trinity is gone. Instead you have support DPS and control skills. I think that The OP and many Ele’s just figured Elementalist would be primarily ranged. But so many run with at least one dagger and are in melee. It’s funny the Dagger/dagger Ele is the only pure melee in the game since other classes can swap to a ranged weapon mid combat.
But either way its not about that. Its about the archetype. Elementalist dont fit what a lot of people thought they were going to be as an archetype. When people generally think wizard, mage, elementalist, shaman, sorcerer and those types of archetypes. Daggers in melee isn’t what comes to mind Merlin, Gandalf and such is what we picture.
“No holy trinity” and “mage archetype” are mutually exclusive. If an one-hitting boss attacks anyone randomly would you ever pick a melee character when a 900-1200 range character would deal superior damage?
Less range has to have greater reward, otherwise no one goes into close combat and professions that specialize in it are left in the dust; maybe it’s because I extensively played GW1 that this seems common sense to me…
Also, Ele Dagger is not melee, it range varies from 300-600, and some abilities, mostly those that help you to keep your distance, have less range. That’s why it deals less damage than a 130 range weapon but more than a 900-1200 range weapon.
DesertRose.2031If you have played GW1 you have already experienced that all kinds of mages are support while the physicals are the damage dealers; I am wondering why you expected that GW2 would totally break with its predecessor’s general profession designs.
while this was true in GW1 you have to remember that GW2 was advertised and marketed as everyone can do everything the trinity is gone. Instead you have support DPS and control skills. I think that The OP and many Ele’s just figured Elementalist would be primarily ranged. But so many run with at least one dagger and are in melee. It’s funny the Dagger/dagger Ele is the only pure melee in the game since other classes can swap to a ranged weapon mid combat.
But either way its not about that. Its about the archetype. Elementalist dont fit what a lot of people thought they were going to be as an archetype. When people generally think wizard, mage, elementalist, shaman, sorcerer and those types of archetypes. Daggers in melee isn’t what comes to mind Merlin, Gandalf and such is what we picture.
“No holy trinity” and “mage archetype” are mutually exclusive. If an one-hitting boss attacks anyone randomly would you ever pick a melee character when a 900-1200 range character would deal superior damage?
Less range has to have greater reward, otherwise no one goes into close combat and professions that specialize in it are left in the dust; maybe it’s because I extensively played GW1 that this seems common sense to me…
Why go melee if ranged has equal or better dps? Because people like different styles.
Why in any other game, do some people go for melee dps and others for ranged? GW2 is not the first action combat game where people have to worry about dodging attacks. You have TERA and Vindictus for starters and people choose different classes there based on what they like because all can do good damage, so both the melee and ranged dps have a place.
Why wouldn’t people go in melee in this game compared to others? Because they have to dodge and thus need more dps as incentive to deal with danger? People in TERA and Vindictus had to dodge and it worked out. People like hacking things with swords, that will never go away.
But you know what, Ranged in this game also have to worry about dodging, reflect shields, CC, healing, etc. If defense weren’t important for ranged you wouldn’t have so many people in this class’s forum and others, talking about how glass cannon specs don’t work! Melee is not more dangerous; there is no justification for less damage from afar.
(edited by Leiloni.7951)
@Zonzai You have the reading comprehension of a snail if that’s what you took from my post.
DesertRose clearly has not played GW1…
Eles were often the main DPS profession, and they has almost no party support skills.
Sounds like he/she was thinking about Monk maybe?
Why go melee if ranged has equal or better dps? Because people like different styles.
(…)
Melee is not more dangerous; there is no justification for less damage from afar.
Yeah, having up to ~80 times bigger room to move to avoid AoEs, having a better view at bosses and sub-bosses to see their tell, being able to attack every melee mob without having them having the ability to retaliate in the very next seconds among other pros doesn’t make ranged combat any more dangerous, sure.
And surely everyone will still welcome you in their party even though you die twice as often without any advantage to a ranged character because you like the style of your swords…
Eles were often the main DPS profession, and they has almost no party support skills.
If you mean by “often” “only in highly specialized team build” and “only in specific areas” (like e.g. DoA) and with “DPS profession” “one of the four to five characters that simultaneously used all their AoE spells to spike down foes” you’re at least correct with the first half of your sentence; I won’t even start at the second half of your sentence.
Also just because many people were bad and used Eles as DDs doesn’t mean they were good at that role; it amazes me that so many years after GW1 was released and all the game mechanics are known there are still people thinking that Eles were good at DPS.
DesertRose.2031“No holy trinity” and “mage archetype” are mutually exclusive. If an one-hitting boss attacks anyone randomly would you ever pick a melee character when a 900-1200 range character would deal superior damage?
Less range has to have greater reward, otherwise no one goes into close combat and professions that specialize in it are left in the dust; maybe it’s because I extensively played GW1 that this seems common sense to me…Also, Ele Dagger is not melee, it range varies from 300-600, and some abilities, mostly those that help you to keep your distance, have less range. That’s why it deals less damage than a 130 range weapon but more than a 900-1200 range weapon.
First off Ele dagger is the most melee this game has. There is no other profession as stuck in this range as an Ele Dagger/dagger period. And I have no Idea what skills you are talking about to keep distance… What Dagger/Dagger is trying to keep distance? Get up in there and wreck some face! But that is off topic.
It sounds like what you are saying is. Range cannot be as good of DPS as Melee DPS so that’s why the “Mage” in this game is a melee DPSer That doesn’t make sense though because there is plenty of ranged DPS in this game… So… I’m not sure what that means. It seems you are stuck on another topic entirely. I dont know where you draw the line, but different people draw it at different places. You dont seem to have a problem with Elementalist being a melee class. (Neither do I I love my Dagger/Dagger) But what if they only had melee? What if they wore heavy armor? What if they didn’t cast spells at all their weapons were just enchanted with elements? At some point you have to agree that the class no longer would feel like a Wizard. Elementalist has always been the wizard of Guild wars. all the OP was saying is that for him. They dont feel as wizardly as they should because to deal high damage you have to be a melee magic rogue.
This is counter to almost everything we have ever played, watched or read in the fantasy genre. Rangers have an animal companion and shoot bows. Engineers have guns and technical gadgets, Necromancers raise the dead and are morbid spell casters. Warriors wear heavy armor and melee weapons. Thieves Stealth and backstab. Elementalists Melee with Daggers. O_o
Most people who come to this game even from the first GW did not expect that!
(edited by Lokki.1092)
Thank you, thats pretty much it.
Staff migth have AoE, but what competent PvP player is stupid enough to stand in your AoE for the full duration? Just walk out of the place where the meteors are landing = 0 damage, walk out of the big red circle appearing at your feet = 0 damage.
Thats why i added DPS in the title, not support/cc/healer. As in a wizard/sorcerer.
I didnt read anything about “Staff Elementalist is a support class with some AoE that is easily avoidable” in the class disription. Atleast there shoulda been two different staff types, one for support and one for dps.
Lokkibuffing other people’s damage isn’t your DPS. Sorry it isn’t. there has never been a situation in any MMO where a support class with support skills was considered DPS because the buff damage.
Comboing isn’t the same as buffing. When I throw down a lava font that makes my teammate’s arrow cause 3 seconds of burning, then those are 3 seconds of burning damage he wouldn’t have done without me. So those 3 seconds of burning are acutally MY damage, not his. And there’s not a lot of ways to put down those damage fields without an Elementalist.
So wheter it fits your definition is irrelevant to me. I just caused 3 second of burning. I just needed a ranger to do so, that’s all.
If you can read this then it is proof that ArenaNet’s moderators just, kind and fair.
Thank you, thats pretty much it.
Staff migth have AoE, but what competent PvP player is stupid enough to stand in your AoE for the full duration? Just walk out of the place where the meteors are landing = 0 damage, walk out of the big red circle appearing at your feet = 0 damage.
Thats why i added DPS in the title, not support/cc/healer. As in a wizard/sorcerer.
I didnt read anything about “Staff Elementalist is a support class with some AoE that is easily avoidable” in the class disription. Atleast there shoulda been two different staff types, one for support and one for dps.
I do WvW mostly and honestly I never have a problem dealing damage on people. Fast as people are they aren’t fast enough to always dodge out of a Volcano pit with everything else that is going on. Meteor, even though it’s random, has one of the farthest reaches of any ability and is clutch for removing siege equipment on the backs of walls where most AOEs simply can’t reach. Eruption is so stealthy on wall edges and high condition damage that even with zero +Condition two is enough to down or make most people retreat off the wall ledges. Even the basic Lightning auto attack is beyond lethal in a pack and it makes me laugh to no end when it one shots Mesmer clones revealing the real one. It’s all about using the right tool for the task: you wouldn’t use a hammer to cut wood and you wouldn’t use a saw to nail something together.
A lot of our AOE requires setup if you’re aiming for a target, specifically around Water or Earth then swapping to Fire. Most people sit in earth, setup an errupt + cripple/immobilize then swap to fire for more AOE. Even if they roll out of the cripple or chill fields, they still will be slowed and will end up eating a good chunk of the AOE you swap to.
Elementalist ultimately requires you master some basic combos. Staff players have to master the Eruption burst combos (Eruption → Geyser for example) and mastering how to land their CC to land their AOE.
Remember also that WvW it’s all about controlling the battlefield and persistent AOEs that make the enemy retreat and back up from should not be dismissed so easily. The whole purpose of killing another player is to tactically remove them from the battlefield so they can no longer damage/support their allies and causing them to retreat back is effectively doing the same.
Kodiak X – Blackgate
Comboing isn’t the same as buffing. When I throw down a lava font that makes my teammate’s arrow cause 3 seconds of burning, then those are 3 seconds of burning damage he wouldn’t have done without me. So those 3 seconds of burning are acutally MY damage, not his. And there’s not a lot of ways to put down those damage fields without an Elementalist.
So wheter it fits your definition is irrelevant to me. I just caused 3 second of burning. I just needed a ranger to do so, that’s all.
I wont disagree that is 3 seconds of burning he wouldn’t have done without you being there. But this thought process can be used on all damage increasing buffs or combos. If you combo might stacks on yourself and the party you’re increasing their power / conditional damage by at least 315 and sometimes up to 630. By that logic isn’t all the extra damage they are doing your dps? Because after all they wouldn’t have done that extra damage without you and your combo. What if you have a healing guardian in your group and he saves you from dying over and over again. Isn’t all your DPS his because he kept you alive and without him you would have done 0 dps?
This is something that people went around in circles with in early MMOs because you are right, if you were not there that extra damage wouldn’t have been done. I cant really argue against it because it is true but by that logic everyone in the group is on a shared DPS and can take credit for everyone’s success. It has generally been accepted that damage you do is your DPS not the damage you cause someone else to do. Though while the above is a great topic of discussion its really neither here nor there when it comes to this particular discussion.
Because Dagger/Dagger does have not 1 but 2 short cooldown Flame fields that produce the same effect as staves but also have a lot more damage because the team burns will roll with drakes breath which is one of our most powerful burning effects, making the added burns do even more damage. In other words even counting team damage from combos as your damage Dagger/Dagger will do more damage. do not misunderstand my words. I do carry a staff on my Ele. I think staff is great honestly but it does not deal more damage than (???)/Dagger.
1. First off Ele dagger is the most melee this game has. There is no other profession as stuck in this range as an Ele Dagger/dagger period. And I have no Idea what skills you are talking about to keep distance… What Dagger/Dagger is trying to keep distance? Get up in there and wreck some face! But that is off topic.
2. It sounds like what you are saying is. Range cannot be as good of DPS as Melee DPS so that’s why the “Mage” in this game is a melee DPSer That doesn’t make sense though because there is plenty of ranged DPS in this game… So… I’m not sure what that means. It seems you are stuck on another topic entirely. I dont know where you draw the line, but different people draw it at different places. You dont seem to have a problem with Elementalist being a melee class. (Neither do I I love my Dagger/Dagger) But what if they only had melee? What if they wore heavy armor? What if they didn’t cast spells at all their weapons were just enchanted with elements? At some point you have to agree that the class no longer would feel like a Wizard. Elementalist has always been the wizard of Guild wars. all the OP was saying is that for him. They dont feel as wizardly as they should because to deal high damage you have to be a melee magic rogue.
1.) Equip Conjure Fire Axe or Conjure Frost Bow and you can have access to multiple 900 range weapon skills; the real question is how can we make them desirable? Or maybe they already are but we simply haven’t tinkered with them enough to find that out?
Even though a MH Dagger Ele want to be relatively close to their target they want to be further away than 130 so that melee characters cannot hit them.
2.) In GW1 Elementalists were most useful to a group if they debuff foes, buff allies and use their superior energy management to use secondary profession skills that were to energy-intensive for the other profession itself to effectively use it, and in PvP additionally to assist spikes; because the core game mechanics of GW2 and GW1 are quite similar I expected the Elementalist to excel in the same areas as its GW1 counterpart. Playing a staff Ele feels a lot like playing an Ele in GW1; I buff my allies with Might, debuff my foes with Chill, Stun, Cripple, heal my allies (okay, that’s new, unless you were playing an ER Ele in GW1) and all the while dealing medicore damage.
I think what opened the eyes of many to this “issue” is that you don’t run around in teams anymore. In GW1 you could play a Fire Elementalist, contribute next to nothing to your team but still feel high and mighty after your team carried you to the next mission. In GW2 you have to carry your own weight, and if you don’t play your profession properly you’ll fall flat on your face.
About the damage, it a risk versus reward thing. I’m sure you’ll agree that being around 130 range away from a foe is more dangerous than being up to 1200 range away. As such the melee guy should have some kind of advantage over the ranged guy to make it desirable to put yourself at greater risk. This can be done by either giving the melee guy flat-out more damage or making their damage of the ranged guy easier to avoid.
An glass cannon Elementalist that uses Fireball, Lava Font and Flame Burst doesn’t deal that much less damage than a glass cannon warrior… if the foe doesn’t leave the AoE.
There’s also another reason why Elementalists take yet another hit to their damage: They cannot get rid of their utility/support; e.g. a Staff provides you with 3 heals and 5 skills that hamper the opponent’s movement.
The solution to this has been already provided by ANet: The Conjure Weapon skills; you toss most of your utility/support away and be rewarded with more raw damage. And that goes back to the previous point: How do we make them desirable?
(edited by DesertRose.2031)
DesertRose.2031 I want to answer some of your points but whenever I do it seem like we are derailing this thread more and more. The whole point is that Ele’s deal more damage at melee ranges than at range with a staff.
Staff ele in WvW is scary how effective it can be. I’ve tried both 30/10/0/0/30 (very good damage, make sure you get the Area Attacks with Staff are Larger in arcane and watch all of them burn), or as a more defensive/support mix with 10/10/0/20/30.
I’ve got 4k kills in WvW, and in addition to my 80 ele an 80 guardian and 80 warrior, all of whom Ive played extensively in WvW, and guess what, in a group fight the ele can do the most damage at range. Sure my warrior hits waaay harder in MELEE, but you asked for range, and son if you use that staff, you got it. And D/D well played can be insane in melee.
If your complaint is only that ele does more damage in melee than at range, your problem has nothing to do with the ele class and more with the overall game design. ALL MELEE does more damage than ranged in GW2. Range is its own inherent advantage.
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