Guild Wars 2

Because those nerfs needed to happen, and he announced them like a pro.

No they didn’t, cleansing had to be nerfed on ele not burning. Burning had to be a global nerf.

And Frost bow should just have been made an elite skill since all our elites are kitten.

Xillllix.3485:

And Frost bow should just have been made an elite skill since all our elites are kitten.

Ironically,

That would have made elementalists stronger. They would gain access to Ice Bow without having to sacrifice an utility skill.

Xillllix.3485:

No they didn’t, cleansing had to be nerfed on ele not burning. Burning had to be a global nerf.

And Frost bow should just have been made an elite skill since all our elites are kitten.

you’re wrong. all those changes are perfect and fair. the might on cantrips could have been left at 1 per cantrip but oh well, people will just switch the grandmaster for extra might.

Xillllix.3485:

No they didn’t, cleansing had to be nerfed on ele not burning. Burning had to be a global nerf.

And Frost bow should just have been made an elite skill since all our elites are kitten.

Thank the lord you aren’t in charge of balance than

If you touch the Ele’s sustain (water, cleansing, cantrip and regen) you might as well delete the class….. they would die within 2 secs from a thief/mesmer out of stealth….

You are clueless.

Ele’s have had this sustain for years.

Why did all the QQ start about cele ele being OP again recently? BECAUSE OF BURN CHANGE and OP FIRE LINE SYNERGY.

Classes can have great sustain at the cost of damage or vice versa. Cele Ele DD Had great sustain AND great DPS.

The DPS needed to go. If you kill the sustain, you kill ele.
Hitting the fire line is fine and opens up air/earth…. which gives a bit of diversity in our choices…. previously it was 100% fire because of its OPness…..

This was the correct call.

SkiTz.4590:

Xillllix.3485:

No they didn’t, cleansing had to be nerfed on ele not burning. Burning had to be a global nerf.

And Frost bow should just have been made an elite skill since all our elites are kitten.

Thank the lord you aren’t in charge of balance than

If you touch the Ele’s sustain (water, cleansing, cantrip and regen) you might as well delete the class….. they would die within 2 secs from a thief/mesmer out of stealth….

You are clueless.

Ele’s have had this sustain for years.

Why did all the QQ start about cele ele being OP again recently? BECAUSE OF BURN CHANGE and OP FIRE LINE SYNERGY.

Classes can have great sustain at the cost of damage or vice versa. Cele Ele DD Had great sustain AND great DPS.

The DPS needed to go. If you kill the sustain, you kill ele.
Hitting the fire line is fine and opens up air/earth…. which gives a bit of diversity in our choices…. previously it was 100% fire because of its OPness…..

This was the correct call.

Ele will just go back at being the hardest class to play and least rewarding. I’ve never had problems with the burning of eles compared to that of guards which is way stronger.

50% nerf to ice bow HAD to happen? Its rendered it entirely useless. This is anets big problem stupid large changes rather than iteraitve smaller changes.

And they nerf ele burning but not guard! Why not?

Xillllix.3485:

SkiTz.4590:

Xillllix.3485:

No they didn’t, cleansing had to be nerfed on ele not burning. Burning had to be a global nerf.

And Frost bow should just have been made an elite skill since all our elites are kitten.

Thank the lord you aren’t in charge of balance than

If you touch the Ele’s sustain (water, cleansing, cantrip and regen) you might as well delete the class….. they would die within 2 secs from a thief/mesmer out of stealth….

You are clueless.

Ele’s have had this sustain for years.

Why did all the QQ start about cele ele being OP again recently? BECAUSE OF BURN CHANGE and OP FIRE LINE SYNERGY.

Classes can have great sustain at the cost of damage or vice versa. Cele Ele DD Had great sustain AND great DPS.

The DPS needed to go. If you kill the sustain, you kill ele.
Hitting the fire line is fine and opens up air/earth…. which gives a bit of diversity in our choices…. previously it was 100% fire because of its OPness…..

This was the correct call.

Ele will just go back at being the hardest class to play and least rewarding. I’ve never had problems with the burning of eles compared to that of guards which is way stronger.

The one thing I agree with you is burning needs a global nerf (or bring other condis closer to be on par with burning)

The only condi guardian can even apply worth a kitten is burning so theres that….

some classes are gonna have way better applications of a certain condi, thats how its always been…..I wish eles could even apply freaking poison or torment…

50% HAD to happen? So Ice Bow HAD to be made completely useless outside of PvE? Why exactly? Because you enjoy PvE and that trumps the fact that its now useless for the other 2/3rds of the game? The fact that a Guardian can still burn a target down in a few seconds, but they targeted the entire fire line of the Ele just kittenes me off. There was an issue with Ring of Fire and perhaps dragons breath … so they ruined it for every other weapon the elementalist had access too.

/golfclap

This is the worst balance team I have seen across all my decades of MMOs and given DAoC, that is really saying something.

- Most nerfs seem reasonable enough

- 50% for icebow may be fine or not, but i dont understand the number of targets reduction… its not intuitive for new players when almost all area skills in the game have 5 targets base

- My only complain: why blinding ashes nerf? People complained (with reason) about eles damage potential but this change doesn’t touch that problem: it affects one of the few non cantrip related defensive traits making its use less reliable. 3 secs may seem little but in pvp its a lot.

- Glyph of Elemental change is a real improvement, not game-changer but maybe good enough to see more play

I wonder if those balance changes are defined or will be used in the next beta so we can bring feedback about them.

So basically Icebow is reduced to 38% of its original damage. This is close to Sbooning. (it may remove the skill completely from play).

For me the changes announced so far have been a two edged sword:
>> Some nerf to D/D had to come, so working on Ring of Fire is OK. On the other hand RoF was only strong if you were dumb enough to cross the line a few times. It kind of got dumbed down a bit with the initial burn inside the circle.
>> Drake’s Breath is OK of a nerf, but what I do not get is that burning in general has not been touched. If you take a look at Guardian, those insane burn stacks are still intact.
>> Blinding Ashes with its internal CD increased is OK, Burning Fire is a much needed nerf to Cantrips.
>> Dragon’s Tooth being ground targeted should be a buff to Scepter, although targeting siege in WvW won’t work anymore and was out of line (of sight) anyway.
>> Like I posted in another thread, I would have like to see the nerf-bat on the Vigor duration of Soothing Disruption instead of Renewing Stamina to “normalize” Vigor gain (and this also addressed the Minor / Major trait discrepancy with Guard & Mes traits). Making Renewing Stamina weaker hits all builds on the Ele and not only the ones that need a shave.

We still need to wait on all the Scepter changes to be announced, to say something about them, but anything that makes Scepter better is fine. Glyph of Elementals is very good, the Icebow nerf might be two steps too far, as the max 3 targets seems unnecessary to me. They pretty much Smiter’s Boon’ed the skill.

SkiTz.4590:

Classes can have great sustain at the cost of damage or vice versa.

This is so true and the nature of all balancing, if you want to gain something you have to give up on something.

Hey Arenanet read this sentence, meditate about it, maybe even hire the guy who wrote this, you could learn a thing or two.

I think they hit ring of fire a little too hard. Sure it needed a tone down but this isn’t a balanced response, this is hitting it with a hammer till it breaks.

I mean 3 stacks for 5s to 1 stack for 2s is absolutely gutting the skill. Why they couldn’t have gone for something more reasonable like 2 stacks for 3s is beyond me. The counter play is there, don’t be an idiot and run across it like its the finish line at the Olympics. Now it won’t even be punishing to cross it several times let alone once or twice.

Vigor I dunno, we’ll see, it’s already been nerfed across the board to the point it’s barely worth it now.

Otherwise generally good stuff, doesn’t fix the problem with conjured weapons essentially being a pick up, use skills, drop weapon.

morrolan.9608:

50% nerf to ice bow HAD to happen? Its rendered it entirely useless. This is anets big problem stupid large changes rather than iteraitve smaller changes.

And they nerf ele burning but not guard! Why not?

Do you see the staff water skills doing that much damage? No? Why not? Because they’re support skill just like the ice bow, just like all water skills. It was never supposed to deal that much damage, it was a mistake they babied the ele community about for far too long.

However, the ice bow is useless, but it has nothing to do with being underpowered, it is useless because its a conjure, and conjures operate on a broken non-functional mechanic that render all of them useless save when there is no other option.

If they are overpowered, like Icebow was, they see play. If they are underpowered, or balanced, or even just short of being overpowered, they never see the light of day. Why? Because being insanely overpowered past the point of any hope at fair play is the only way they could ever be worth giving up fifteen skills for five. They need a redesign that incorporates them in to the attunement system in some way, but I doubt ANet is willing to put in the work when they could be designing future content instead of fixing their existing crap.

I see the bigger picture. D/D damage was broken, with that out of the way it’s possible to get more creative in ele traits. Earth can now make a comeback, but they should review some traits. Diamond Skin threshold specifically, it’s ridiculous, a few hits and we’re under that threshold TOO MUCH easily.

mordran.4750:

SkiTz.4590:

Classes can have great sustain at the cost of damage or vice versa.

This is so true and the nature of all balancing, if you want to gain something you have to give up on something.

Hey Arenanet read this sentence, meditate about it, maybe even hire the guy who wrote this, you could learn a thing or two.

Yeah… that’s ONLY true if you’re performing at the desired level. If you’re under tuned you gain more than you lose. If you’re over tuned you lose more than you gain. Always moving toward the median of the entire pack.

Looking at what just happened, where do you think the metrics and mass opinion were both saying Elementalists were at?

Thug Life https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1&v=fK1N_vqJPac

Burst burn guardian is just burst burn. Fire spec D/D elementalists were both brawlers and support bunkers.

I’m mostly fine with the nerfs. A little annoyed that they hit fire spec with nerfs clearly intended for D/D that trickled down to fire spec staff.

D/D is why we can’t have nice things guys.

But oh well. I play Air/Water/Arcane in WvW and Earth/Water/Arcane in PvP so I can deal with a few less stacks of might on my staff in PvE.

Kidel.2057:

Thug Life https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1&v=fK1N_vqJPac

I actually loved his expression and the Mic Drop™. It’s cheering how he is against the zerker meta, and how he – as one of THE devs behind overall PvE balance – is trying very hard to end this bs culture. According to him, zerker meta is a thing of the past, and needs adjustments to disappear so to open up more variety in PvE.

Kidel.2057:

Thug Life https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1&v=fK1N_vqJPac

Pretty nice reality check there

It looks like Roy Cronacher was behind these changes, so I extend my appreciation to him aswell.

They missed the part where they were supposed to reduce burning across all professions and boost bleeding… I’m not particularly happy about the renewing stamina nerf, because it is a major trait, and the other vigor traits are minors, so it was not actually “normalized.”

Amen, great changes!

All of the Ele haters coming out of the woodwork it seems.

irrumatio.4893:

All of the Ele haters coming out of the woodwork it seems.

Mesmer main, ele is a good second. Love the changes. Nope, I don’t hate myself.

Demandred.7930:

irrumatio.4893:

All of the Ele haters coming out of the woodwork it seems.

Mesmer main, ele is a good second. Love the changes. Nope, I don’t hate myself.

They made the class less diverse and pigeon holed it further into D/D Cele for PvP. It wasn’t like S/X Air Maurader Eles were all that common, but now its pretty much dead.

WTeverlivingF is there to love about that?

They blamed the entire burning issue on the Ele and left the burn burst guardian and engineer completely untouched.

Ground Target Dragon Tooth? About time, but that doesn’t fix scepter at all. The issues with scepter are NOT number problems.

DT not being ground targetted was my major complaint about scepter but there are others yes, like it being half a condition weapon half a dd weapon and not optimal for either.

Scepter’s Fire #1 is so clunky, I wonder if they’re touching it.

Valento.9852:

Scepter’s Fire #1 is so clunky, I wonder if they’re touching it.

Of course not, that would be helpful. They did a Mic drop and gloating on twitter on nerfing cantrips, the fire line, and ice bow … do you think they actually want to help the class?

Plus all the #1 abilities are pretty much bunk on scepter. They also need to decide if Scepter is a condi weapon or dps weapon because the mix of the two and hamstringing it.

Taldren.7523:

Of course not, that would be helpful. They did a Mic drop and gloating on twitter on nerfing cantrips, the fire line, and ice bow … do you think they actually want to help the class?

Plus all the #1 abilities are pretty much bunk on scepter. They also need to decide if Scepter is a condi weapon or dps weapon because the mix of the two and hamstringing it.

Had not seen the gloating on Twitter and was already disgusted with the gigantic middle finger the Mic Drop was to the elementalists. The gloating on twitter just add more salt to the injury.

ANET just wanted to tell all elementalists to get kittened it seems….

Well after all of this and the absolute failure that is the Tempest, boy I certainly don’t feel any buyer’s remorse with having bought the HOT expansion…

Perhaps next time isn’t of just giving us the finger they can actually work on fixing stuff…. You know, like doing proper balance work.

Conncept.7638:

morrolan.9608:

50% nerf to ice bow HAD to happen? Its rendered it entirely useless. This is anets big problem stupid large changes rather than iteraitve smaller changes.

And they nerf ele burning but not guard! Why not?

Do you see the staff water skills doing that much damage? No? Why not? Because they’re support skill just like the ice bow, just like all water skills. It was never supposed to deal that much damage, it was a mistake they babied the ele community about for far too long.

However, the ice bow is useless, but it has nothing to do with being underpowered, it is useless because its a conjure, and conjures operate on a broken non-functional mechanic that render all of them useless save when there is no other option.

If they are overpowered, like Icebow was, they see play. If they are underpowered, or balanced, or even just short of being overpowered, they never see the light of day. Why? Because being insanely overpowered past the point of any hope at fair play is the only way they could ever be worth giving up fifteen skills for five. They need a redesign that incorporates them in to the attunement system in some way, but I doubt ANet is willing to put in the work when they could be designing future content instead of fixing their existing crap.

Well, do you see any skill on water staff that does nothing apart from pure damage?

The question is, what is that skill doing on ice bow in the first place? It does nothing else apart from doing damage, so obviously it had to do good damage. The damage was too much, some sort of nerf was needed, but what they did was a bandaid and doesn’t kitten the core problems with the skill type.

People who think these nerfs were good don’t understand the game, and they’re going to be complaining again in a few weeks when they realize cele is still kicking their kitten .

Kidel.2057:

Thug Life https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1&v=fK1N_vqJPac

Nice video edit. His delivery was flawless and funny.

“So cele d/d ele is overperforming, ruining all competition, and generally just OP, but all other ele specs are underperforming and generally suck? Oh, better nerf ele as a whole because people are even trying out other specs than D/D.”

Conncept.7638:

morrolan.9608:

50% nerf to ice bow HAD to happen? Its rendered it entirely useless. This is anets big problem stupid large changes rather than iteraitve smaller changes.

And they nerf ele burning but not guard! Why not?

Do you see the staff water skills doing that much damage? No? Why not? Because they’re support skill just like the ice bow, just like all water skills. It was never supposed to deal that much damage, it was a mistake they babied the ele community about for far too long.

What? Icebow is all damage and cc, barely any support. they would have to completely revamp it to make it a support weapon.

As for Roy appreciation as per the thread title change, why after the gloating on twitter? Very poor choice of wording from him.

morrolan.9608:

Conncept.7638:

morrolan.9608:

50% nerf to ice bow HAD to happen? Its rendered it entirely useless. This is anets big problem stupid large changes rather than iteraitve smaller changes.

And they nerf ele burning but not guard! Why not?

Do you see the staff water skills doing that much damage? No? Why not? Because they’re support skill just like the ice bow, just like all water skills. It was never supposed to deal that much damage, it was a mistake they babied the ele community about for far too long.

What? Icebow is all damage and cc, barely any support. they would have to completely revamp it to make it a support weapon.

As for Roy appreciation as per the thread title change, why after the gloating on twitter? Very poor choice of wording from him.

Agreed, not sure what there is to be thankful for from them when they act unprofessional concerning buffs and nerfs. Gloating about it just seems in poor taste and screams they had personal bias against a class.

morrolan.9608:

Conncept.7638:

morrolan.9608:

50% nerf to ice bow HAD to happen? Its rendered it entirely useless. This is anets big problem stupid large changes rather than iteraitve smaller changes.

And they nerf ele burning but not guard! Why not?

Do you see the staff water skills doing that much damage? No? Why not? Because they’re support skill just like the ice bow, just like all water skills. It was never supposed to deal that much damage, it was a mistake they babied the ele community about for far too long.

What? Icebow is all damage and cc, barely any support. they would have to completely revamp it to make it a support weapon.

As for Roy appreciation as per the thread title change, why after the gloating on twitter? Very poor choice of wording from him.

Do you not know what support means? Control IS support.

An auto attack that AoE heals
A teamwide damage buff
AoE Control
AoE Damage
Single target Control

Yeah, not supportive, just four out of five skills is all.

Just because everyone used it for its single damaging skill, because that skill was completely borked, does not mean it was designed for damage. It was designed for the same support ALL water skills are, team damage amp, disables, condition clears, and heals.

Though honestly, water could afford a little more in the team damage amp area pretty much everywhere. It should not be so binary as ‘condition clear and heal or go home’. No other class has trait trees so ridiculously pidgeonholed in to either offense or defense as we do.

Some of these adjustments I can agree with, but not some others.

Burning needed some toning down, sure, I can go with that.

The blinding ashes change I’m on the fence with. Given what it’s competing with, that 3s change could make that grandmaster unappealing (again).

The removal of might from cantrips, ok fine. I’d like to see them bump the might from Pyromancer’s Puissance from 1 stack to 2 per fire skill used and maybe make that grandmaster entertainable.

Ice bow…. didn’t they just buff that? I’m ok with either a 50% nerf or the reduction in number of targets hit. Doing both might be just a tad bit overkill. (Why hello smiter’s boon!)

Renewing stamina, I’m in agreement with others that it’s fine to normalize this with other ‘vigor on crit’; however, in doing so it should become part of the adept minor trait, not be a an adept major anymore. OR they should roll it into a master major, leave its duration, and change it’s requirement for activation, which would put it on par with things like Bountiful Theft or Primal Reflexes.

The elemental glyph, buffing it might make it see more play. We’ll have to see if it can actually take a hit and survive. The recharge reduction is nice, but if it still face plants before being useful…well, then it’s still useless.

Valento.9852:

Because those nerfs needed to happen, and he announced them like a pro.

Absolutely! I main ele and I was so sick of that kitten Ice Bow! The Ice Bow will still have the longest CC in the game (if I remember correctly) and condi builds can still get some bleeds out of it (maybe going to 3 targets instead of 5 was a little too much?). That drop mic was epic and my friends and I were laughing pretty hard. Well done Irenio and Roy.

The other changes look good too with the exception of the nerf to rof. The dumbing down of skills is something I am not for and those that had problems with it was more about a L2P issue than anything else.

Looking forward to seeing what future changes to the scepter come about and the Tempest is still undergoing iteration. There’s a lot going on over the next few months and we’ll have to wait and see where all the pieces land to judge it all properly.

Xillllix.3485:

No they didn’t, cleansing had to be nerfed on ele not burning. Burning had to be a global nerf.

im glad you’re not on the balance team then. It was the Ele’s constant access to burning application that was the problem. And Anet seems to have fixed that. The bugged ring of fire that gave a million stacks every time you moved etc which meant condi cleansing was a waste.

Conncept.7638:

morrolan.9608:

Conncept.7638:

morrolan.9608:

50% nerf to ice bow HAD to happen? Its rendered it entirely useless. This is anets big problem stupid large changes rather than iteraitve smaller changes.

And they nerf ele burning but not guard! Why not?

Do you see the staff water skills doing that much damage? No? Why not? Because they’re support skill just like the ice bow, just like all water skills. It was never supposed to deal that much damage, it was a mistake they babied the ele community about for far too long.

What? Icebow is all damage and cc, barely any support. they would have to completely revamp it to make it a support weapon.

As for Roy appreciation as per the thread title change, why after the gloating on twitter? Very poor choice of wording from him.

Do you not know what support means? Control IS support..

The developers made this game based on three things:
Damage
Control
Support
Hmm, there seems to be something off about- oh that’s right! Control and Support are separate. They are not the same thing, at all. So Ice Bow is a weapon with support only on its auto attack skill. Skill 2 deals damage and control (through vuln). Skill 3 inflicts control mostly (damage up close) through chill. Skill 4 is pure damage. Skill 5 is a powerful single target control skill. You can argue that skill 2 is support, but not the other 3 skills. Those are either control or damage skills. And don’t try to argue control and support are the same thing, the developers have already made the game on the basis that they are not.

I really wish they toned burning damage down first, then evaluated what needs to be adjusted on Ele. Burn dmg is just plain oppressive atm. Then on the flip side of that, Bleed damage is just pathetic. Any condi build that relies on bleed damage is simply nonviable.

Conncept.7638:

morrolan.9608:

Conncept.7638:

morrolan.9608:

50% nerf to ice bow HAD to happen? Its rendered it entirely useless. This is anets big problem stupid large changes rather than iteraitve smaller changes.

And they nerf ele burning but not guard! Why not?

Do you see the staff water skills doing that much damage? No? Why not? Because they’re support skill just like the ice bow, just like all water skills. It was never supposed to deal that much damage, it was a mistake they babied the ele community about for far too long.

What? Icebow is all damage and cc, barely any support. they would have to completely revamp it to make it a support weapon.

As for Roy appreciation as per the thread title change, why after the gloating on twitter? Very poor choice of wording from him.

Do you not know what support means? Control IS support.

An auto attack that AoE heals

The heal is not even worth mentioning in comparison to the alternatives, and yes like others have suggested in the GW2 lexicon cc is control, support is primarily healing and buffing.

I don’t agree the nerfs needed to happen. I think they were a step backward in the evolution of the class. What I personally feel the problem was is that they couldn’t find a quick easy solution to solve the problem (dat feature of Ice Bow 4), and instead opted to nerf the skill itself.

Meanwhile, there are other skills that are similar to Ice Bow 4, and they weren’t nearly as affected. Why is that, you think?

When they fix that, I’m certain conjures will make a comeback. Until then, this is just another disappointment. Its also the same sort of logistic approach that happens in every other issue that is this large. They break what’s wrong further, and then revisit the issue 6 months to a year down maybe.

In the meantime, the playerbase has to soldier on through the numerical changes, and I gotta keep digging through the never-ending cycle of ragequit threads.

Things I can appreciate Roy/Irenio for:

Making big decisions that may kitten people off, and being confident enough to keep doing it.

Things I can do without:

The theatrics. I want a solid discussion, not smug commentary.

Mikkel.8427:

I really wish they toned burning damage down first, then evaluated what needs to be adjusted on Ele. Burn dmg is just plain oppressive atm. Then on the flip side of that, Bleed damage is just pathetic. Any condi build that relies on bleed damage is simply nonviable.

Except they can’t if they don’t want to split the game modes.

Ice Bow could’ve probably been reduced by 75% if they can’t fix the large hitbox problems that it has. It still might see use on large bosses even with 50% reduction and with it force more than one ele in the party, but it all depends on the amount of time you spend fighting such foes in any given instance.

Either way, for PvE the bow nerf was warranted, but they should have split it between PvP and PvE.

morrolan.9608:

50% nerf to ice bow HAD to happen? Its rendered it entirely useless. This is anets big problem stupid large changes rather than iteraitve smaller changes.

And they nerf ele burning but not guard! Why not?

again DD c-ele have sustain mobility and damage….burning guardian has only damage and no sustain nor mobility. basically once you learn how to counter is an easy kill, same as engi.
Like it should be damage OR sustain. can’t have both.
Aside elementalists burning is not that a problem, like, really.

I agree that the ice bow nerf was kinda over the top. But the frequency of application on burn was def needed when you compare with guard Judges Intervention for example did 3 stacks of burning once on a 36sec CD. And they have to use up a heal utility to do that burst also. Ring of fire gave 3 stacks of burning for 5 sec EVERY time someone cross the ring or was knocked out of the ring and on a 15 sec CD.

I also think that removing might on cantrip was a bit too much also. I mean 3 stacks for 15 sec was a lot but maybe 2 stacks for 10 sec would be ok. Removing completely seems overkill.

Overall statement of a build should have sustain or damage but not both is valid.