Guild Wars 2

:D

Here is what I said:
“The elementalist has a terrible innate defense, if you consider only the passive attributes like armor and health. Some people do the mistake of trying to solve this problem frontally, by taking defensive gear. It’s a common human mistake. But there is a simple fact: the ele is not made to sustain hits. So even if you take defensive gear you are going to get spanked, unless you start using the real defensive tools of the ele.”

You replied:
“to say something ridiculous like the Elementalist isn’t made to sustain hits is simply and factually incorrect.”

My point was that the innate defense of the elementalist makes it unable to sustain hits. Then we can build our character to counter that.

The building of the character and its innate defense are two different topics.

We could have talked about the interesting topic of how to use our tools to survive, but you contradicted me on the very premise of the discussion. Seven times after that you are still not able to stand for that point. I am tired.

Boon: Active Defense – activated by the players depending on the situations.
Gear: Passive Defense – persist despite any situations.

The only class that is made to sustain hits (and does it very poorly) is the necromancer. Any competent team pvp players can tell you that while the d/d cele is designed to fight on point longer than most other builds, they require a lot of kiting and dodging to not get hit under focus fire. While relatively more sustainable, D/D cele is not a defensive build. If you don’t know how to be aggressive and hit the enemy, you’ll die eventually.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

You replied:
“to say something ridiculous like the Elementalist isn’t made to sustain hits is simply and factually incorrect.”

My point was that the innate defense of the elementalist makes it unable to sustain hits. Then we can build our character to counter that.

The building of the character and its innate defense are two different topics.

We could have talked about the interesting topic of how to use our tools to survive, but you contradicted me on the very premise of the discussion. Seven times after that you are still not able to stand for that point. I am tired.

And my point is that when we say “made” I for one mean everything about the design of the Elementalist that “makes” up the class. That means the traits we get (offensive and defensive), the boons we have access too, the weapon skills (offensive and defensive) we get access to, the condition management we get access to and the healing we get access to and even armor and hit points we get access to. Nothing is not connected. A class that is designed to have lower hit points will generally receive something else in compensation balance wise as part of it’s “make” and/or design. An Elementalist has heals and boons, the Guardian has heals and boons, and the Thief has a lot of mobility and stealth.

Looking at only two aspects to the make of a character, in this case Armor and Hit Points, is an extremely narrow and limited view. A truly objective view would look at not only these aspects but the entire picture (or class make/design) of why they are what they are.

We could still have that discussion, and you’re the only one standing in the way of it because seven times you’ve ignored the answer. I am not tired. At all. If you wanna keep going that’s fine, but the answer doesn’t change no matter how much you ignore it

What you do not get is that maybe you had a point, maybe, maybe not. We could discuss it.

But why did you have to contradict me on facts that you openly recognise now??
I said the elementalist’s innate defenses make it unable to sustain hits. Whether or not we are going to discuss the real defensive tools of the ele, why do you have to contradict this statement although you admit all the facts??? Can you not consider a few facts on their own – passive defense – before adding more complex facts to the discussion – active defense? Of course I look at the big picture, but that does not prevent me from drawing partial conclusions. Apparently it does prevent you from doing that though. But it does not prevent you from heinously contradicting me on every point I make.

I know you want to “discredit me and drag my name though the mud” (god, the violence!) but could you please do that by being constructive in the discussions?

Do you even realise that you abusively contradicted me on some simple facts before justifying yourself saying that simple facts are not the complete picture? It is like if we were in siberia in a heated house, I would say the house is warm, and you would reply that saying that the house is warm is factually incorrect because it is pretty cold out there We would all appreciate it if you could abstain from wasting a page of posts just for such absurdity.

Kodiak.3281:

Are you implying a “Brawler” isn’t defensive? I mean look if you wanna label it brawler, bruiser, bunker, defensive, boonway, kalamazoo or whatever you feel comfortable about it go for it. However implying it’s not a defensive build is just silly when it literally has all points in it’s defensive lines and is renown for it’s durability and defenses.

Brawler or bruiser (interchangeable) is not a bunker nor a defensive spec. It’s a hybrid of offense and defense. A bunker in this game should never kill anyone while a bruiser is obviously expected to do that.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

But there is a simple fact: the ele is not made to sustain hits. So even if you take defensive gear you are going to get spanked,

Disagreed!

What the hell are you talking about?

Ele is not meant to facetank hits…. Nobody is. But with the right skills it can withstand basically infinite amount of beating from a single opponent. Skills including dodge, active and passive defence with healing makes the elementalis one of the tankiest profession out there.

Celestial amulet. That’s what gives the ele the “tanky” byname.

Neither class in guildwar2 was built to just outheal or outtank damage. Because of that gameplay is more active by dodging, stacking/standing in certain spots.

I don’t know your personal issues, but that’s definitely not the right place to grab a fight.

@OP, maybe you could be more precise in which particular boss encounters or at which content you are struggling most.
I think that it depends a lot on your experience for the class and the game, respectively.
Also running the same build all the time won’t do you any good in PvE. For instance – your current build, I would only recommend when playing against objects, that which you can’t land crits on and have a big hitbox.
Also you are pretty dependent on your party members, when doing dungeons as a group.

(It depends. If you’re doing solo content you know when to do/cast/change attunements. That certainly won’t apply to all cases in which you’re running with pugs.
e.g. a party member runs to far away or mistakenly pulls aggro.
When soloing you can easily avoid these situations by knowing your class and the boss’s mechanics. You don’t have to rely on anyone – making it easy, to say – “I can solo anything”. )

Note:
If you want to play the ele efficiently, don’t camp in one trait setup/with one weapon set.
When out of combat – in most cases – it can be of great benefit for you and your party members when changing your build/weapon.

Best of luck!

I never once acknowledged that Elementalists were never meant to sustain hits and maintain, as others are starting to chime in, that the Elementalist class by design has the capability to sustain and take hits with the best of them.

You very clearly said Elementalists were not “made” to sustain hits. We’ve quoted what you said multiple times now. However, they are made to sustain hits because they are “made” with plenty of defenses built into the class design. Boons. Heals. Condi Cleanse. You then proceeded to ignore these answers time after time again, claiming the only way to sustain hits is through armor and hit points.

If you want to re-clarify and change your statement to the Elementalist has the weakest armor and lowest hit points and therefore we are forced to choose between offense and defense then that’s fine. However, this fundamentally admits to what I was saying that using what the Elementalist was made with can be used to sustain hits and be defensive. I personally take this a step further and show the effectiveness that, as everyone else is apparently so keen to point out, you can even build the character as a “Brawler” who can not only be defensive but also still have effective enough offense to fight.

AGAIN IRONICALLY…these same concepts were given the OP and the OP has already stated that using a defensive trait build (courtesy of one fine gentleman: Aggrostemma.1703) he has found success in his efforts. This, once again, backs up my entire point that sometimes a defensive or hybrid solution is the answer to some people’s problems. And what did you contribute Zelyhn? You contributed 8 posts ignoring answers before you finally relented and admitted that what you originally said wasn’t clear enough and really you meant something else entirely. When are you gonna just let it go?

“The elementalist has a terrible innate defense, if you consider only the passive attributes like armor and health. Some people do the mistake of trying to solve this problem frontally, by taking defensive gear. It’s a common human mistake. But there is a simple fact: the ele is not made to sustain hits. So even if you take defensive gear you are going to get spanked, unless you start using the real defensive tools of the ele.”

Tools =/= gear.

My post could not be clearer.
And it could not be more clear that all you care about is contradicting me.

You are the one wasting posts here. If you had not contradicted me on some very simple facts we could have talked about the defensive tools of the ele.

I am going to be kind to you and I will consider that you understood your mistake by now, so we can move on.
_

So, how do we solve the problem that the ele is not made to sustain hits?
There are a few options:
- defensive gear: which, on its own, only postpones the inevitable
- defensive builds to heal: always good while you are learning the content of the game, and does not require defensive gear to work well
- defensive conditions: these are available to virtually all builds and should therefore be used when ever relevant. If the player wants to progress fast this is what he should focus on improving first. This is because learning hot to control and kite in order to avoid being hit will always be more effective than taking hits and recovering from them.
- Kill before being killed: this is the best option but it is the most difficult to achieve, as it requires a lot of commitment from the player and his teammates.

My post also couldn’t be more clear when I was responding to Thaddeus who I quoted…

Kodiak.3281:

I mean Defensive Ele is arguably one of the strongest specs we have as a class. It’s so good that in SPvP tournaments it’s pretty much impossible to find a team that doesn’t have one or two bunker Elementalists on it. It’s great for Roaming 1vX in WvW. All these parts of the game where your survivability is directly challenged a Defensive Elementalist has no problems powering through. So to say something ridiculous like the Elementalist isn’t made to sustain hits is simply and factually incorrect. It’s only unable to sustain hits if you make it unable to sustain hits. In fact the #1 repeated nerf to our class year after year has been hits to how defensive we are.

So let me ask you this. If my only purpose was to contradict you, and the post you quoted said the exact same things you said originally, why are we even having this conversation? Why are you trying to call me out on something you clearly already agree with? Who exactly is looking to argue with whom here? You want to grab only one line from what I write but seem upset when I grab only one line from what you write as well? Seems rather hypocritical.

See when I read something like “Such and such class is not made to sustain hits” I tend to think of a character who uses avoidance mechanics to avoid being hit because they have very few ways to deal with incoming hits. For example a Thief who doesn’t have access to a lot of healing (mostly heal in stealth) or boons but rather relies on stealth, evasion and mobility to avoid being hit at all. Another great example is a Mesmer who relies on clones, stealth and CC to also avoid being hit. Both of these classes are almost always glass spec because they truly have very few if any straight up sustainability to just sit there and take hits. You can gear them defensively (P/D Dire Condi Thief comes to mind) but they still aren’t made to take hits where the Elementalist has many options from full bunker to the oft mentioned in this thread “Brawler” builds where they have no choice but to sustain hits because there are low to no avoidance mechanics.

But I liked your list. It was all great things the Elementalist was made with in order to deal with having to sustain hits since they lack alternative escape tools and methods to avoid being hit on a large scale like other classes.

Kodiak.3281:

My post also couldn’t be more clear when I was responding to Thaddeus who I quoted…

Yeah no.
Thaddeus did not mention sustaining hits. On the contrary you used the exact words I wrote, just to contradict them. It is like when you contradicted me when I said that a certain level of efficiency is required to complete content, in an other thread. When you wantonly contradict me on premises that everybody accepts and agrees with, it does not make you look very rational.

Kodiak I get what you are trying to say, but you use wrong words.

First stop using the word bunker to describe a brawler cele Elementalist (D/D or Staff).

Two cele ele can’t sustain hits, they can sustain combat. They still have low hp and low armor, but they use active defense to sustain themselve throughout the fight. People that try to tank the damage and outheal it as a cele ele will die rather quickly. Yes they use protection to be able to sustain a bit more attack, yes they use heal to keep themselves alive, but that’s not enough. Shoutbow Warrior is way better at sustaining hits compare to a D/D elementalist.

Where cele Ele do better than a Shoutbow Warrior? It’s how he can avoid to be hit. Burning Speed will evade an attack, Updraft, Shocking Aura and Earthquake will interrupt an attack, the high amount of vigor will allow to dodge more often. A elementalist that will use those to his advantage will survive way more than one that try to take hits because elementalist isn’t great at taking hits.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Yeah no.
Thaddeus did not mention sustaining hits. On the contrary you used the exact words I wrote, just to contradict them. It is like when you contradicted me when I said that a certain level of efficiency is required to complete content, in an other thread. When you wantonly contradict me on premises that everybody accepts and agrees with, it does not make you look very rational.

I know spending all that time looking at my profile and past posts leaves me on your mind but sorry buddy I was replying to Thaddeus. He was saying that playing defensively and killing slow was sarcastically fun and I was pointing out that being dead you don’t kill at all is sarcastically fun. I then elaborated that we, as a class, are made to sustain through hits and damage and you see this in scenarios like PvP where we have no spammable methods to avoid taking hits and rather must sustain through. If it works in PvP, which I’ll take liberty and say is more challenging than PvE in this game, surely it’ll work for PvE as well.

Thaddeus.4891:

Where cele Ele do better than a Shoutbow Warrior? It’s how he can avoid to be hit. Burning Speed will evade an attack, Updraft, Shocking Aura and Earthquake will interrupt an attack, the high amount of vigor will allow to dodge more often. A elementalist that will use those to his advantage will survive way more than one that try to take hits because elementalist isn’t great at taking hits.

And you’re not wrong that we don’t have a few, long CD in most cases, ways to avoid attacks but generally speaking we have to power through eating attacks with the tools we were made with. This is why “Brawler” Elementalists are heavy into Water/Arcane because they rely on the large amount of boons (protection, regen, vigor, might, fury) and large amount of small heals (signet, evasive arcana, cleansing wave, regen, soothing mist+lingering, etc) which none is huge in itself but it all stacks together massively increasing our EHP. This certainly doesn’t mean we’re the only class who can do this, shoutbow being a fantastic example.

However compare this to a class like a Thief or Mesmer who literally is not made to sustain hits because they have lower armor or hitpoints, low amounts of healing and low access to boons but in turn favor a large number of avoidance mechanics. This is why, traditionally, both Thief and Mesmer are built glassy in the first place because they rely on those avoidance mechanics and attempt to burst down opponents. Build a glassy Elementalist in PvP and let me know how that works out for ya

How classes are made and what they have access to is pretty cut and dry. Using only part of class make up to justify an argument is a poor basis at best and doesn’t make the rest of the class suddenly disappear or become irrelevant.

oxtred.7658:

If you die as an ele in a group, it means the guardian is bad. If you die as anything else than guardian, actually, it means that the guardian is bad. If you die as a guardian, it means that you, the guardian, is bad.

tl;dr: find a competent guardian and you will never go down. Having good teammates plays a role in your survivability until you’re able to solo all the encounters.

Um, what? No. Not everyone plays their guardian as a full cleric heal support. The guardian can supplement survival a lot, but there’s plenty of instances where the nonguardian has to do something.

Margrave,

If you’re having trouble with a particular piece of content try switching your traits to the defensive and the more sustainable 0/0/2 (III)/6 (?,X,?)/6 builds. (?,VIII,XI)

It may take longer to bring them down, but you can also be basically immortal as long as you attunement swap regularly.

If you are going to do dungeon runs, you’ll want to focus on all zerker, learn the dungeon, learn might stacking etc… But if you’re on your own. Start with something more defensive.

Dry Top inquest, I’ve tried different builds. D/F, D/D, talent spec changes. Nothing. The story quest sends me alone against some elite mobs, who wipe the floor with me. Even when I’m in a group with other npcs, that are attacking, EVERYTHING agros on me.

I found the living story to be particularly nasty at punishing full zerker solos. You need some support. Oh and kite like you’ve never kited before.

Congratulations OP!

Getting used to the Elemental can be tough. especially if your used to playing “magic users” from other games. An Ele is probably more like an assassin/ninja who uses magic then a magic user. Lots of movement, busy interaction between spells, and if your not light on your feet and keep things moving, you go down faster then a prom date.

It took me 3 different tries of playing for a bit, giving up, playing a bit later, giving up again…and leveling with crafting a bit until i got my Ele to a level where the traits started to shore things up, and the rotations finally started working. my default reaction (from my days on tanky in your face melee classes) when stressed was to stand there and spam everything. Ele’s need to MOVE…and be careful about skill selection. and press lots of buttons…

But eventually it started to all come together. It felt so amazing to finally be able to solo an elite mob my own level! it all ties together once you find a build your comfy with and really wire in those skill functions! The Ele more then any other class I’ve played to date really needs to KNOW in detail what each skill does. can’t tell you how many times i’ve pressed something, and gone, “Ah crud…that was my shield thingamajigger, not my heal and slow thingamabobber!” and then my little asura goes “EEEP” and turns into a mess on the bottom of the trolls foot.

Thankfully those situations are become less and less. Compared to many other classes, I see Ele as having HIGH initial learning curve. My first toon was a guardian with a hammer….3 skill wonder. went from that to the 500 million skills my Ele has. Brain overload. But it just takes more time.

fracture:

/applause

Be proud mate! Most of us did the same but since there is an OP who was stuck here and found it difficult AND asked for help. We did help without basically calling him kitten or noob. He had problems. We helped him out.

But you my friend you are the only brave hero to be brave enough to point out how easy is that particular situation.

Well done!

If you scroll up a bit you will see I did read this thread.

You can do the entire content of the GW2 in zerker gear and a year experience but please accept that not everyone is able to do this. There are always newcomers and wvw-warriors and players new to a class.

Anyway: you are right! I should not react such. My bad!