Guild Wars 2

I’ve had my ele for a while but didn’t gear it up yet and never really bothered looking into a build yet.

I love both D/D and staff for ele but honestly I prefer staff a bit more.
How diffirent are DD and staff eles when it comes to support in a group or damage/defense?

Staff lacks good DPS to be competitive in PvE Dungeons or in sPvP.

Staff’s ginormous AoE CC makes it excellent in WvW zergs.

For the purposes of only PvE, look to the guide in my sig. I personally think the gameplay of double dagger and something like the Auramancer build is a great intro to the gameplay of an Ele as a whole, across all formats (though I will warn you that outside Lightning Hammer, Eles have pretty subpar damage for dungeons).

Try different things and do what’s fun. You’ll read that D/D is the only way to go, but the bottom line is that you should do whatever you want. Learn to jump between all attunements, and combo fields are wicked fun.

For PvE just about anything will work. I’ve played a wide variety of builds and they all work in PvE till you get to high end Fractals. By the time you get there you should know what you’re doing.

My most probably used build for PvE in general was a 0/20/0/30/20 build because it works with both Staff and D/D (just swap certain traits). For Staff I used Zerker/Zerker armor with Knight/Emerald Jewelry and for D/D I used PvT/Boon armor with Knight/Emerald Jewelry.

The biggest key is to treat anyone who tells you that X, Y, or Z you come up with is sub par as the enemy. There are zero damage meters in this game and consequently almost no way to compare how well people do or don’t do. A lot of that nonsense is just regurgitated information that’s been spread out but never actually verified with numbers and DPS because again that’s almost impossible to accomplish. How do you compare the DPS of an AOE Might combo to just staying in Fire and DPSing? It’s pretty much impossible and a lot of people make assumptions but never provide any facts or numbers to back it up (or provide some of the facts but never the complete scenario).

Start with something basic (like a 0/20/0/30/20 build) and then branch out from there based on what you think is fun. Don’t be afraid to try new stuff and certainly don’t listen to people who tell you that something isn’t viable because you can be guaranteed they have zero proof (as in actual numbers) to back it up.

Kodiak.3281:

For PvE just about anything will work. I’ve played a wide variety of builds and they all work in PvE till you get to high end Fractals. By the time you get there you should know what you’re doing.

My most probably used build for PvE in general was a 0/20/0/30/20 build because it works with both Staff and D/D (just swap certain traits). For Staff I used Zerker/Zerker armor with Knight/Emerald Jewelry and for D/D I used PvT/Boon armor with Knight/Emerald Jewelry.

The biggest key is to treat anyone who tells you that X, Y, or Z you come up with is sub par as the enemy. There are zero damage meters in this game and consequently almost no way to compare how well people do or don’t do. A lot of that nonsense is just regurgitated information that’s been spread out but never actually verified with numbers and DPS because again that’s almost impossible to accomplish. How do you compare the DPS of an AOE Might combo to just staying in Fire and DPSing? It’s pretty much impossible and a lot of people make assumptions but never provide any facts or numbers to back it up (or provide some of the facts but never the complete scenario).

Start with something basic (like a 0/20/0/30/20 build) and then branch out from there based on what you think is fun. Don’t be afraid to try new stuff and certainly don’t listen to people who tell you that something isn’t viable because you can be guaranteed they have zero proof (as in actual numbers) to back it up.

For what it’s worth, if you’re going to do some low-DPS build with lots of points in Water/Arcana, you might as well put 30 in Arcana and take Evasive Arcana for the utility (as well as the better Attunement Recharge rate), OR put 30 points in Air so you get access to Fresh Air. I wouldn’t suggest 0/20/0/30/20. Don’t see the benefit to it.

Kodiak.3281:

For PvE just about anything will work. I’ve played a wide variety of builds and they all work in PvE till you get to high end Fractals. By the time you get there you should know what you’re doing.

My most probably used build for PvE in general was a 0/20/0/30/20 build because it works with both Staff and D/D (just swap certain traits). For Staff I used Zerker/Zerker armor with Knight/Emerald Jewelry and for D/D I used PvT/Boon armor with Knight/Emerald Jewelry.

The biggest key is to treat anyone who tells you that X, Y, or Z you come up with is sub par as the enemy. There are zero damage meters in this game and consequently almost no way to compare how well people do or don’t do. A lot of that nonsense is just regurgitated information that’s been spread out but never actually verified with numbers and DPS because again that’s almost impossible to accomplish. How do you compare the DPS of an AOE Might combo to just staying in Fire and DPSing? It’s pretty much impossible and a lot of people make assumptions but never provide any facts or numbers to back it up (or provide some of the facts but never the complete scenario).

Start with something basic (like a 0/20/0/30/20 build) and then branch out from there based on what you think is fun. Don’t be afraid to try new stuff and certainly don’t listen to people who tell you that something isn’t viable because you can be guaranteed they have zero proof (as in actual numbers) to back it up.

You know, there are plenty of people who have calculated everything, we know what is subpar and what is not from verified information. The mechanics are not so complicated that we need metrics in anyway, yes even for a might combo.
In PvE everything will work, but some things will work terribly while other will do a great job, just like in any mode.

Quick advice: if you are going to take items with crit damage (like zerker) always prioritize the trinkets! As opposed to what you told.
Also never use boon armor!

Read Neko’s guide.

Neko.9021:

For what it’s worth, if you’re going to do some low-DPS build with lots of points in Water/Arcana, you might as well put 30 in Arcana and take Evasive Arcana for the utility (as well as the better Attunement Recharge rate), OR put 30 points in Air so you get access to Fresh Air. I wouldn’t suggest 0/20/0/30/20. Don’t see the benefit to it.

For what it’s worth Evasive Arcana has become entirely optional since it was nerfed last year and is no longer a blast finisher every time regardless of attunement.

Lining it up for 3 more stacks of Might is novel and all but most of the time you’re going to get Might capped in most groups without it and in many boss fights it’s better to dodge when you need to rather than try to save it to do a blast finisher for a might combo. I find the extra 10 in Air far more valuable for Bolt to the Heart with Zephyr’s for D/D play.

The Attunement management is more than manageable with 20 Arcane and boon Duration (especially with 2 Sup Monk, 2 Sup Water, 2 Major Monk) is enough to keep it all stacked forever.

Zelyhn.8069:

You know, there are plenty of people who have calculated everything, we know what is subpar and what is not from verified information. The mechanics are not so complicated that we need metrics in anyway, yes even for a might combo.
In PvE everything will work, but some things will work terribly while other will do a great job, just like in any mode.

Quick advice: if you are going to take items with crit damage (like zerker) always prioritize the trinkets! As opposed to what you told.
Also never use boon armor!

Read Neko’s guide.

Feel free to link or show the calculated numbers. I’d love to see them.

I’ve been around these forums since the start. Back then a bunch of people vomited out a bunch of assumptions and information on what was good and what was bad. People have repeatedly lapped up that vomit and re-vomited it back out for more people to hear over and over for the last 6 months. None of it has been based on fact or numbers.

I prioritize Emerald jewelry because I want those higher stats in the Jewelry. With 20 in Air the Crit Damage is less of a factor. Personally I tend to run more Zerker/Zerker, Zerker/Zerker when doing Staff play because I’m fairly experienced at the game play and don’t fall over instantly if something looks at me. However that’s not something I go recommending to new people not used to the class.

All my calculations are based on hard numbers that have been confirmed, and the empirical tests validate all my conclusions.
That’s a nice way to say that I am right, and I can prove it any time. Also, I am not the only one! There are plenty of clever people on these forums who have come to the same conclusions … sometimes we disagree on details, but the facts are here.

I do not doubt you are experienced. But when it comes to theory crafting, you are saying a lot of baseless things.
For example: using major monk runes as a third set of duration runes is very suboptimal. Also if you are going for direct damage it is suboptimal to go for zerker-armor/knight-jewelery instead of knight-armor/zerker-jewelery.
Air is the trait line that increases your damage the most, and it does so in an exponential manner, so going from 20 to 30 in air gives more damage than going from 10 to 20. Crit damage is never less of a factor.

Zelyhn.8069:

All my calculations are based on hard numbers that have been confirmed, and the empirical tests validate all my conclusions.
That’s a nice way to say that I am right, and I can prove it any time. Also, I am not the only one! There are plenty of clever people on these forums who have come to the same conclusions … sometimes we disagree on details, but the facts are here.

I do not doubt you are experienced. But when it comes to theory crafting, you are saying a lot of baseless things.
For example: using major monk runes as a third set of duration runes is very suboptimal. Also if you are going for direct damage it is suboptimal to go for zerker-armor/knight-jewelery instead of knight-armor/zerker-jewelery.
Air is the trait line that increases your damage the most, and it does so in an exponential manner, so going from 20 to 30 in air gives more damage than going from 10 to 20. Crit damage is never less of a factor.

I read a lot of jargon but still don’t have the numbers. The “everyone else agrees” argument doesn’t fly with me. You’d think out of that everyone else, one of them would be able to actually prove their point with numbers.

Here’s a perfect example. You say boon duration is sub-optimal, but you fail to present a numerical argument. You state the theory but don’t back it up. The only argument ever presented against Boon duration is that there’s other DPS alternatives that might (again, never proven) be worth more DPS. Never is it actually broken down anywhere what 10% boon duration grants you on the boons we provide and what that translates into DPS compared to say going with 2 Divinity/2 Ruby Orbs and the DPS those add instead.

Exponential in what way? I mean when you’re doing D/D Aura Share you aren’t swapping back into Air constantly like you would with a S/D burst build who is relying on crits from other attunements to abuse the dual instant Lightning Strike for a mass burst of damage. In D/D you’re often times rotating between attunements to rock off cross attunement combos (Fire → Earth specifically) and settling back into Air for your auto attack DPS. With even 20 Arcane you more than have enough time for Air to come off Cool Down after doing the various cross attunement combos so you don’t really make any gains with Air being on cool down.

The one time it would be useful, where you were forced into Water to heal/recover out of Air and your Fire/Earth combos aren’t up, is marginal gains at best and isn’t worth giving up 30 in Water (for Aura Share) or 20 in Arcane (for a variety of reasons).

It’s like you guys theorize, but then ignore practical game play.

it all boils down to doing whats fun for you

I can give you numbers, but on what? Your argument was that in PvE everything is ok, mine is that some builds are better. Do you want me to prove that I can find a build that works better than an other? Well very simply: if you go for direct damage, with full zerker, if you take 30 in fire you increase your potential damage output by 15.1% (before traits, buffs, etc) but if you go for 30 in air instead you increase your potential damage output by 22.6%, which is about 50% more.

Read my post correctly, I never said that boon duration is suboptimal. I said that using a major rune instead of a superior rune is suboptimal.
When you have 30 in arcane (30% boon duration) and 2 superior duration runes (30% more) then you have 60% boons duration, and your attunement recharge is 9.375. The base duration of the might boon from arcane is 15, add 60% to get 24s of might on attunement swap. That gives you 2.56 stacks of might on average, which is about 90 power. Now if you increase your boon duration by an other 10% you get 2.72 might stacks on average: an increase of 5 in power. What will this incredible 5 power give you? About 0.2% more damage with a 0/20/x/x/30 zerker. That being said I don’t think I need to explain how two ruby orbs (40 power, 4% crit dmg, 24 precision) are better even if you manage to buff 5 allies with your arcane boons in all four attunements.
Edit: since most elementalist rightfully run sigils of battle, let me include it in my calculations: 6 stacks from the sigil if you swap perfectly, add 60% you have 9.6 stacks, the extra runes give you 0.6 stacks, that is 21 power. So the extra runes give you 21+5=26 power, plus maybe a bit more from combos. Well just to get 40 power from the extra runes you need to maintain 40/35/0.1=11.4 stacks of might on average, without boon duration (so with 60% boon duration you need 18.3 stacks on average). The highest amount of power the extra runes can give you is when you have 14.7 might stacks without bonus duration: 51.5 power.

The stats from the air tree are precision and crit damage. While precision have a decreasing rate of proportional damage increase, crit damage does not. So due to crit damage, the air tree has a proportionally increasing rate of damage increase
To put it clearly: going from 10 to 20 in air boosts your damage by 7% and going from 20 to 30 boost it by 7.2% (zerker gear, before traits and buffs).

First off allow me to congratulate and thank you because you’re probably the first person ever to actually try to engage me with numbers instead of just doubling down on your rhetoric.

What I have always wanted is someone to mathematically (as in with hard numbers) prove their point that X build is better than Y build. I do not really care for the very simple, I care for realistic scenarios and situations. What weapons are being used? Utilities? What damage/increase are there to side conditions? Even survivability can have a DPS number assigned to as the old saying goes, “If you’re dead you’re doing 0 DPS.”

While I see your point regarding 10% boon duration seeming suboptimal you’re really undervaluing the real game play scenarios of how many might stacks you will have. When you tally up Might stacking (something very common with either S/D or D/D game play) it’s not unheard of to be at 20 stacks or more. When I run 0/20/0/30/20 I am regularly over 20 (but admittedly it goes up and down) as D/D which is the same base duration as you going 30 Arcane (which got you EA). That means you’re going to give up something, either 10 in Air (where I will get 100 Precision/10% crit, Bolt to the Heart or Zephyr) or I get 30 in Water (where I will get 100 Vitality and 100 healing plus Aura Share). In addition to which it’s 10% for all boons (including defensive ones such as regen, swiftness, vigor and protection) not the least of which is also Fury.

Furthermore things like team composition comes into play. Aura Share doesn’t help at all if you’re grouped up with 4 other Ranged people or you’re sharing Fury with one other dude. If you have a Guardian taking up 15 Might stacks then anything over 10 is wasted. However also if you got 3 melees then if you are equal to 40 power for the gem, you also have to calculate it in x3 for the three people not just the gem which only affects yourself.

Don’t even get me started on Diminishing returns of stats, which aren’t affected by boons

I think we can all agree that going 30/30/0/10/0 in Zerker/Zerker gear is probably the most optimal damage possible. Bringing up the numbers to show that doesn’t negate the reality of game play where you won’t be running full tilt DPS like that. The matter has never been to argue what is the best possible DPS but rather what gives you the most amount of DPS with the bare minimum amount of survivability required and yet is still somewhat user friendly to play. Going on about some high meta level game play/build obviously has no place in a thread to someone just coming back or starting an Elementalist.

Thanks, glad to be of some help

Stats do not have diminishing returns, they only have proportional diminishing returns: if you have 2000 power and add 200 that’s a 10% increase, now you have 2200, if you add 200 more that’s now a 9.1% increase, but the absolute increase is still the same. I don’t know any boons that are not affected by this!

If you have 20 in arcane and duration runes (20%+40%=60%) then 20 stacks of might are based on 20/1.6=12.5 stacks without bonus, the arcane and superior runes give you 12.5*0.5=6.25 stacks (219 power) and the major rune gives you 12.5*0.1=1.25 stacks, so 44 power. You would still be better off with superior runes of force or ruby orbs.

If you are looking for an efficient PvE build then I suggest you take a look at my signature and we can discus it in that thread!

0 / 20 / 0 / 30 / 20 used to be a more viable build before Cleansing Water got nerfed. It was focused on a balance between group support and decent DPS, rather than one or the other.

Now that Cleansing Water isn’t worth it (IMO), I find that 0 / 30 / 0 / 20 / 20 works very well for any of the Ele weapon sets. It’s focused more on DPS, but you still have the added viability of group support as well, mostly through augmenting your attunement dancing. The traits also aren’t weapon-dependent, so you’re free to weapon swap to your heart’s content.

As far as the weapons, the choice really depends on what the player is looking for:

AoE DPS:
Staff
Dagger/Dagger
Scepter/Dagger
Dagger/Focus
Scepter/Focus

AoE Support and CC:
Staff
Scepter/Focus
Scepter/Dagger
Dagger/Focus
Dagger/Dagger

Single-target DPS:
Scepter/Dagger
Dagger/Dagger
Staff
Anything/Focus

As you can tell, I’m not very fond of the focus (used to be fun in WvW, but that’s been nerfed, too). I have friends who enjoy using it, so keep in mind that this is my own perception of the weapons.

Right now, there are some bugs on Scepter and Focus, so be aware that they have issues. For example, Scepter Water #2 doesn’t activate at all.

Actually Might calculation is all based on up time which has to be analyzed entirely by source and the ability to recast that source of might.

So lets take your example of Sigil of Battle. This is reusable every 10 seconds. That’s 3 stacks of Might every 10 seconds. With 60% boon duration that’s 24. With 50% that’s 22.5 duration. This means in either scenario we can keep up 6 stacks of Might (210 Power) assuming you switch perfectly every 12 or 11 seconds. Fire Attunement is the same thing each time you swap into Fire Attunement with similar up time.

(As a side note, technically if you did everything perfectly the additional time would lead to additional Might up time which means more effective Power but since no one is that robotically perfect we will skip it. I’m merely noting it to be complete)

However now lets look at something a bit more Complex: a Ring of Fire → Arcane Wave combo. Arcane Wave has a 30 second cool down meaning the AOE Might given it will be 3 stacks lasting for 22.5 or 24 seconds (which is a 75% and 80% up time respectively). This means effectively you’re getting 78.4 Power vs 84 Power (a 5.6 gain). This is the same for Churning Earth.

Yet something more complicated, Ring of Fire → Earthquake. Earthquake has a 45 second cool down menaing AOE Might given will last again for 22.5 or 24 seconds (which is a 50% up time and a 53% up time respectively). This is even worse for 10% boon duration since 50% is 52.5 and 56 (only a 3.5 gain).

This largely accounts for 17 of our stacks with the other 3 (for me) coming from GOEH (which is another 3 stacks but since I don’t believe in just throwing out your heal randomly I won’t count it but it’s a 22.5 and 24 vs 25s recast) for 20 stacks total.

From there we add up all the advantages. The 10% boons netted us a grand total of 14.7 Might in D/D compared to 40 with Ruby Orbs. The final bit of calculation is the number of targets effected which would mean if you only affect yourself and 1 other person, you will do less than Ruby Orbs. However if you affect 3 or more people you would collectively add more Power than Ruby Orbs.

As for your “efficient PvE build” honestly I don’t see the point in min-maxing the game as all this. If I join a group and just look like I’m busy no one will know the difference. I have joined groups as S/D on my Condition spec (30/0/30/10/0) and no one was any the wiser because I was kicking out huge Might stacks and perma Fury to the group (with 0 Boon duration…that new 30 point Fire trait is nutty) but most importantly I looked busy. Without said damage meters perception of how the class performs (as in collectively everyone believes we are high/med/low DPS) trumps actual performance (whether or not we are actually high/med/low DPS) every day of the week.

@Vick
I guess you are mainly talking about WvW, mode in which I rarely participate, so I am knot that knowledgeable about it.
But I am wondering why are you maintaining 20 in arcane and not 10, especially with the new fresh air talent? (assuming it had its ICD)
For PvE I would take away 10 in arcane and put it either in fire (for damage and staff viability) or water (dagger fury share and staff support)
Yes I hate scepter
In PvE I cannot imagine not taking my beloved focus with me

@Kodiak
You have an odd way of calculating that, you are much more pessimistic than me, but your results make sense.
Now, if you gain 15 power from the extra runes, that is 0.5-0.75% increase in damage (depending on your zerker build). If you buff 4 allies at the same time that is an additional 4×0.75=3% increased damage, so your total group output is increased by 3.75%.
Two ruby orbs (40 power 24 preci 4 critdmg) give you between 3.5% and 4.5% increased damage (depending on your build), so it is better on average, and you are less dependent on your group.
As for your last paragraph, come on!

Zelyhn.8069:

@Kodiak
You have an odd way of calculating that, you are much more pessimistic than me, but your results make sense.

This is the “proper” way to calculate the values of Boons. Boons are only as good as the duration they last on your character. If you can only maintain one stack of might 50% of the time then that means you’ll effectively have an increase of 35 * 0.5 Power.

Same goes with Fury. If you can keep Fury up 100% of the time that’s a static 20% increase to crit. However if you can only maintain Fury 50% of the time then that’s effectively only a 10% increase to crit.

Where this all gets tricky and overly complicated (and where damage meters really help) is if you do the bulk of your damage while you have your boons up. So if you super charge up with boons (25 Might, Fury) and then blow the majority of your DPS under that duration it will throw all the numbers way off. For example doing a Fire Grab under 25 stacks of Might and Fury is a lot different than say doing a Fire Grab with 9 stacks of Might without Fury.

Zelyhn.8069:

Now, if you gain 15 power from the extra runes, that is 0.5-0.75% increase in damage (depending on your zerker build). If you buff 4 allies at the same time that is an additional 4×0.75=3% increased damage, so your total group output is increased by 3.75%.
Two ruby orbs (40 power 24 preci 4 critdmg) give you between 3.5% and 4.5% increased damage (depending on your build), so it is better on average, and you are less dependent on your group.

The problem I have with this entire section is you have no math associated with these percentages. Why can’t I say that the increase from Orbs is 3% and the increase from Might on 3 targets is 7%? See now my percentages seem higher than yours.

Math = Credibility.

(See what I did there?)

Zelyhn.8069:

As for your last paragraph, come on!

You come on.

Show me the experience in this game where someone has been thrown out of a group for actually doing low DPS? No one can prove it. If I could wave my arms around excitedly with spell effects in hand while running around avoiding AOE’s no one would be any the wiser that I’m doing no damage. After doing literally hundreds of dungeons (and I still haven’t farmed enough for my Legendary…) one of three things will happen if DPS is low:

1. People will just straight up leave.
2. People will just deal with it and stay.
3. People will rely on assumptions/superstition/popular opinion that <insert class> is in the group and therefore is holding the rest of the group back.

The only reason we ever even see threads like this is because a few people (few as in relative to the whole) actually want to contribute and feel helpful and are looking for the best way to do so.

You asked to be proved with numbers that some builds can be better than others, then you say that min-maxing is pointless because you only have to look busy.
Well have fun looking busy! I will not commit any further to this conversation.

Zelyhn.8069:

You asked to be proved with numbers that some builds can be better than others, then you say that min-maxing is pointless because you only have to look busy.
Well have fun looking busy! I will not commit any further to this conversation.

My interest in the matter goes as far as to say that there’s really no way for anyone to prove there’s one build that’s better than others because threads like these are always filled with people who come in and poop all over anyone else’s advice that doesn’t match up with the current line of thinking. No one is willing (or usually capable) of proving their point beyond repeating their same assertions as if saying it repeatedly will make them true. I don’t think it’s unreasonable if someone makes an assertion they are also capable of proving that it’s true. If they are unwilling or unable to prove what they’re saying then you can tell they most likely have no idea what they are talking about and just telling someone else what they were told.

That’s what I find a shame about you. You seem like you at least have done some sort of work looking into it but refusing to prove what you’re saying just makes what you said meaningless.

Where my interest dies off is when we get into discussions about whether or not a 0.X% increase from boons is greater than a 0.Y% increase to direct damage because the simple truth is it doesn’t matter and no one will ever be able to call you out on the difference.

Why I am replying to this …

What you need to understand is that making a better build means making a lot of these 0.X% > 0.Y%. An optimized build is just an aggregation of these small improvements. So yes I am discussing them, and rightfully so. And if you play good only to the point where people stop calling you out then you are not a good player, or a player at all. Also, that kind of “looking good” remark is off-topic: the OP is asking for an efficient build, what good is it going to do to him if he only “looks good” while leveling up? I am astonished by your attitude.

I can prove all my statements. I have done so, but then you just criticise my numbers because you do not understand where they come from. Maybe if you only looked at the damage formula on the wiki you would have a clue. Do you expect me to copy paste that formula here or you can find it yourself? If you are not going to do your share of the work then at least show some respect.

Alright people, simmer down. Don’t you have better things to do in life? This isn’t even the best video game on the planet…geez. Anyways, numbers and charts are still in the domain of theory-crafting, note, theory. That means ideally in the most ideal of all situations, best case scenario.

However, numbers should not be ignored. It’s still math and science that makes a video game!

I prefer staff as well, but the damage is so bad that staff skills alone do not cut it for
any of the game content. My solution is to use Flame Axe and Lightning Hammer
in a 20/0/0/30/20 build. The 30 in water for defence, healing, condition removal, to
support team mates, the 20 in arcane for faster attunement switching, attunement
bonuses and larger staff area circles (blasting staff).

Then the 20 in fire for a nice boost in power, as well as +10 charges on your summon
axe, hammer and elite greatsword. That’s 50 uses of summons, and another 25 when
you are in a tight spot with the elite summon greatsword.

Consider if you run out of charges in a big fight, you can just pick up the summons you
created on the ground, for another set of charges. Tho usually other players will have
picked ‘em up, cuz it’s just really fun to use them.

I usually go into a fight by placing a bunch of aoe circles from various attunements,
and then I go into the fray with the hammer and the axe, both of which do good
damage. The 2 and 5 of the axe for example give some major burst, while all hammer
skills are good.

If you don’t like the un-magey double daggers, or the girly sceptre, then imo this is a
nice solution.

I do wish fire magic had more than one trait for summoned weapons.

Zelyhn.8069:

Why I am replying to this …

What you need to understand is that making a better build means making a lot of these 0.X% > 0.Y%. An optimized build is just an aggregation of these small improvements. So yes I am discussing them, and rightfully so. And if you play good only to the point where people stop calling you out then you are not a good player, or a player at all. Also, that kind of “looking good” remark is off-topic: the OP is asking for an efficient build, what good is it going to do to him if he only “looks good” while leveling up? I am astonished by your attitude.

I have a practical attitude. Discussing the differences between less than a % of performance are completely nonsensical.

Zelyhn.8069:

I can prove all my statements. I have done so, but then you just criticise my numbers because you do not understand where they come from. Maybe if you only looked at the damage formula on the wiki you would have a clue. Do you expect me to copy paste that formula here or you can find it yourself? If you are not going to do your share of the work then at least show some respect.

You showed your math and how you got your numbers when comparing Ruby Orbs to Major Monks. For that I applaud you.

However I also noticed you do not calculate their benefits correctly as it appeared you were multiplying the number of stacks by duration. This is incorrect especially when talking about Might because multiplying stacks on something that doesn’t stack infinitely (there’s a hard 25 cap) is simply inaccurate. Boons (and Conditions) are all about their up time (duration vs recast) to determine effectiveness. Therefore I “did my share of the work” and provided the math to properly calculate them (even though it ultimately hurt my argument because it resulted in an even lower number).

Furthermore I criticize not your numbers, but your refusal to show the numbers where you start randomly stating percentages of increases. There are lots of damage calculations on the Wiki. If you refuse to even point out or reference which one you talk about then that would be one thing but instead you simply started spitting out numbers at me with no basis what so ever. You can’t possibly expect me to take that seriously especially when you’ve proven you’re capable of trying to show the numbers behind your math.

Zsymon.8457:

I prefer staff as well, but the damage is so bad that staff skills alone do not cut it for
any of the game content. My solution is to use Flame Axe and Lightning Hammer
in a 20/0/0/30/20 build. The 30 in water for defence, healing, condition removal, to
support team mates, the 20 in arcane for faster attunement switching, attunement
bonuses and larger staff area circles (blasting staff).

Conditimentalist

That’s the build I’ve used for around 3 weeks now in SPvP, WvW and PvE. Lotta fun, effective, survivable and flies in the face of everything people consider “mandatory” on an Elementalist. I swap in Fire 11 sometimes when doing groups for perma group Fury and I’m already Might capped due to group buffs.

I too have been thinking of taking every single point out of Attunement tree, well maybe except elemental attunement (that one that gives boon when you switch) that one is boss.

I’m so tired of every single build out there is pigeon holed to that trait line. That is not how a class is supposed to play after more a year of release as a triple A title.

flyingfox.6150:

I too have been thinking of taking every single point out of Attunement tree, well maybe except elemental attunement (that one that gives boon when you switch) that one is boss.

I’m so tired of every single build out there is pigeon holed to that trait line. That is not how a class is supposed to play after more a year of release as a triple A title.

I couldn’t agree more!
Take a look at my signature for a PvE Build.
_

@Kodiak

I am going to say it again and for the last time: small difference (less than one percent) may seem meaningless, but it is the the accumulation of those that make a good build (many small differences make a big difference…). So every single one of them is worth discussing.

My calculation for might stacks are accurate (with some rounding up). If you think otherwise then please show me where I did a mistake.
Your calculations are far from correct. This is because you limited yourself to full stacks, while it is more accurate to use average number of stacks like I did, and this is why you got a lower number.

Let me explain:

So lets take your example of Sigil of Battle. This is reusable every 10 seconds. That’s 3 stacks of Might every 10 seconds. With 60% boon duration that’s 24. With 50% that’s 22.5 duration. This means in either scenario we can keep up 6 stacks of Might (210 Power) assuming you switch perfectly every 12 or 11 seconds. Fire Attunement is the same thing each time you swap into Fire Attunement with similar up time.
(As a side note, technically if you did everything perfectly the additional time would lead to additional Might up time which means more effective Power but since no one is that robotically perfect we will skip it. I’m merely noting it to be complete)

The emphasis is mine

So you talk about maintaining 6 stacks if you swap every 12 or 11 seconds. Not only is this vague, but also the attunement swap cd is 9.375 with 30 in arcane so the difference is big. Since water is a huge source of heal, most people will swap to it as soon as it is available so you can be sure that the 10s ICD of the sigil will proc on that mark. So if you swap on ICD proc then you get at least 6 stacks, but often more because the previous stacks have not yet run out if you have bonus duration. That’s when your note shows your biggest failure: you choose to ignore these occasional extra stacks. My calculation multiply the stacks by their duration bonus because this is what gives the accurate number of stacks on average: 6×1.6=9.6 for a 60% duration bonus. What this number means is that most of the time you will not have 6 stacks like you predicted, but closer to 9 (with occasional 12). The key words are “on average”.

The percentages of increase I stated are not random. Go on the wiki and look at the direct damage formula, calculate raw damage without the buff/item you want to evaluate, then calculate raw damage with that buff/item, divide, get percentages.

Zelyhn.8069:

I am going to say it again and for the last time: small difference (less than one percent) may seem meaningless, but it is the the accumulation of those that make a good build (many small differences make a big difference…). So every single one of them is worth discussing.

You’re giving me potatoes and are telling me it’s all part of some grand feast. Until I have more than potatoes expect me to react as if I have potatoes.

Zelyhn.8069:

My calculation for might stacks are accurate (with some rounding up). If you think otherwise then please show me where I did a mistake.
Your calculations are far from correct. This is because you limited yourself to full stacks, while it is more accurate to use average number of stacks like I did, and this is why you got a lower number.

Your calculations are:

<Boon Duration> / <Skill Recharge> == <Boon Multiplier> * <Number of Boons gained> == <Average Boon Duration>

What they should be is:

<Skill Recharge> / <Boon Duration> == <% Up Time> * <Boon Effect (e.g. Power)> == <Actual Boon Effectiveness over time>

The key is I’m focusing on the actual effect the boons give, which are what we are trying to actually measure. You can tell your numbers are incorrect you when you state:

Zelyhn.8069:

What this number means is that most of the time you will not have 6 stacks like you predicted, but closer to 9 (with occasional 12). The key words are “on average”.

If you gain 3 stacks of a boon lasts 24 seconds, and you can get said boons every 10 seconds, there is at no point in time ever where Sigil of Battle will give you “occasionally 12” because it’s mathematically impossible. The maximum you will ever see is 9 Boons and only for 4 seconds. To see visually:

(These forums suck and messed up my cool graphic…added a manual graphic/picture below)

This is why your math and the way you calculate things is wrong and you should instead use the method I listed. At most you will ever have is 4/10 seconds of 9 Stacks of Might and in the rest of the time you will be at 6 Stacks. That is not an “average of 9 stacks.”

Zelyhn.8069:

So you talk about maintaining 6 stacks if you swap every 12 or 11 seconds. Not only is this vague, but also the attunement swap cd is 9.375 with 30 in arcane so the difference is big.

So lets pause and state that again we’re not talking about 30 Arcane. We’re talking about 20 Arcane with 10% boon duration or 20 Arcane with 2 Ruby Orbs. 20 Arcane has a different cool down period on Attunement Swaps.

If we talk about 30 Arcane then we have to then include the merits of 30 Arcane over 30 Water (which is 1% dmg increase per boon) or 20 Air (which is 100 Precision/10 %Crit Dmg).

Zelyhn.8069:

The percentages of increase I stated are not random. Go on the wiki and look at the direct damage formula, calculate raw damage without the buff/item you want to evaluate, then calculate raw damage with that buff/item, divide, get percentages.

The wiki states:

Damage done = (weapon damage) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)

Every spell has a different coefficient. This means you can not properly calculate out a generic percentage increase without calculating out all the abilities you will use, their respective DPS, add them all together. Do the same with the other gear setup. Then compare to see the percentage increase.

MATHS: This is why no one wants to have a legitimate conversation.

READ: this is what you need to learn to do before attempting MATHS.

Superior Sigil of battle: Gain 3 stacks of Might (20 seconds) when you swap to this weapon while in combat.
Ok? So 9.6 on average (9 with the occasional 12) with 60% boon duration. Or 9 on average with your 50% boon duration.

I’m glad you go the wiki formula right, but I told you to calculate raw damage: damage before coefficient, weapon damage & target’s armor: raw damage= power x (1+(precision-822)/21/100 x bonus crit damage /100)
Yeah arguably it’s not on the wiki
Hint: if you are just going to check the effectiveness of might, all you need to do is divide your total power with the might stacks by your normal total power without the might stacks

You got my calculations about might stack completely wrong.
What I do is: average might stacks without boon duration (duration x number of stacks on proc / proc cooldown), multiplied by boon duration coefficient (1.5 with your build) = average stacks with boon duration, multiplied by 35 = average bonus power from might with boon duration.
You can move multiplications and divisions around, it’s ok, it’s maths well done.

So you want a grand feast? give me a build for PvE and I’ll tell you how to improve it. Or you could just click on my signature like I told you many times.

This conversation is getting tiring.

Zelyhn.8069:

READ: this is what you need to learn to do before attempting MATHS.

The only thing I need to do when doing Maths is not base my Math on what you say and instead go to the source in the future. You mentioned a 15 second Might time and everything was based on that. Apparently you only meant for Elemental Attunement as most every other source of Might is 20 seconds.

Zelyhn.8069:

Superior Sigil of battle: Gain 3 stacks of Might (20 seconds) when you swap to this weapon while in combat.
Ok? So 9.6 on average (9 with the occasional 12) with 60% boon duration. Or 9 on average with your 50% boon duration.

Now it’s my turn to act smug and tell you that maybe you should learn to read that all “On Swap” sigils have an internal 10 second cool down. Meaning even with 30 Arcane you won’t ever get more benefit than 10s of Attunement Swap times meaning if you swap too fast you can clip it and miss the Buff entirely.

Furthermore, again, we’re talking about 20 Arcane which has an 11s cool down meaning we’re actually talking about an 8/11s up time on 9 stacks (which would still be the majority).

Zelyhn.8069:

I’m glad you go the wiki formula right, but I told you to calculate raw damage: damage before coefficient, weapon damage & target’s armor: raw damage= power x (1+(precision-822)/21/100 x bonus crit damage /100)
Yeah arguably it’s not on the wiki

This is a huge problem and it dramatically skews all your results. While mathematically it works out, it will ultimately show results that are vastly higher than they actually are. Two Ruby Orbs don’t increase DPS by 3%, they increase it by a fraction of that % once you actually plug in real numbers into those other parts you’ve taken away because as the numbers scale up the damage numbers scale relatively downward.

Then we get back into talking about 0.X%…

You got my calculations about might stack completely wrong.
What I do is: average might stacks without boon duration (duration x number of stacks on proc / proc cooldown), multiplied by boon duration coefficient (1.5 with your build) = average stacks with boon duration, multiplied by 35 = average bonus power from might with boon duration.
You can change move multiplications and divisions around, it’s ok, it’s maths well done.

I only have what you give me to work with. The little work you did show reflects what I have listed that you took the boon duration, divided it by the cool down which gave you an “average” number of stacks which you then multiplied by the boon bonus (in this case Might, so Power) and compared those two power ratings. You do this here:

Zelyhn.8069:

When you have 30 in arcane (30% boon duration) and 2 superior duration runes (30% more) then you have 60% boons duration, and your attunement recharge is 9.375. The base duration of the might boon from arcane is 15, add 60% to get 24s of might on attunement swap. That gives you 2.56 stacks of might on average, which is about 90 power. Now if you increase your boon duration by an other 10% you get 2.72 might stacks on average: an increase of 5 in power.

Zelyhn.8069:

So you want a grand feast? give me a build for PvE and I’ll tell you how to improve it. Or you could just click on my signature like I told you many times.

This conversation is getting tiring.

I already listed a template and a way for the user (in the original part of this thread) with a build of 0/20/0/30/20 with Soldier/2 Sup Monk, 2 Sup Water, 2 Maj Monk and Knight/Emerald jewelry. You insisted the 2 Major Monk was “sub-optimal” and I contended that you couldn’t prove it was sub-optimal and since then we’ve gone and talked about the merits of 10% boon duration, the extra might/power you gain from it, and the proper way to calculate the might gained. We haven’t even gotten into the merits of 10% boon duration for other Boons like Fury or the Ruby Orb’s crit increases.

Strap in or punch out…cause baby this ride is just gettin started.

Right, so I am getting trolled. There is no other explanation.
But sure baby, let’s go further!

I mentioned a 15s might stack on arcane boons, not sigil of battle. You got that wrong, just admit it.

With 30 arcane or with 20 arcane you will get pretty much all the stacks from sigil of battle because you can swap 4 times during the recharge time of your attunements. This gives a very small error margin, around 10%. As opposed to what you say, you will not miss the buff entirely, but you will have less stacks on average so somehow you have a point! Congrats! But it’s negligible.

Now an other proof that you have no idea of what you are talking about, and that you understand nothing at maths!
About raw damage

This is a huge problem and it dramatically skews all your results. While mathematically it works out, it will ultimately show results that are vastly higher than they actually are. Two Ruby Orbs don’t increase DPS by 3%, they increase it by a fraction of that % once you actually plug in real numbers into those other parts you’ve taken away because as the numbers scale up the damage numbers scale relatively downward.

Which part of “divide new raw damage by base raw damage” did you not get??
You could take any damage!! Even plug in coefficients, or the age of you favorite pet, it does not matter because you are going to divide it by the same thing after!
All that matters when you want to know the increased damage from additional power is its proportion to your total base power.
So you did not read my hint did you?

I only have what you give me to work with. The little work you did show reflects what I have listed that you took the boon duration, divided it by the cool down which gave you an “average” number of stacks which you then multiplied by the boon bonus (in this case Might, so Power) and compared those two power ratings.

Yes, and that’s the same thing as what I have been talking about in my last three posts. It’s still correct, and quoting it again and again won’t make it wrong.

So now that I have explained to you for the fourth time why my calculations are correct, the results still hold: 10% boon duration runes are suboptimal. They are suboptimal compared to ruby orbs, but I compared them to that just because you mentioned it. The real thing is when you compare two major runes of monk with two superior runes of force. It’s not hard to compute: it’s twice the benefit in power!

Can’t wait to see your reply.

Zelyhn.8069:

Right, so I am getting trolled. There is no other explanation.
But sure baby, let’s go further!

Classic forum defense. “I don’t like what the bad man is saying, he is trolling me!”

Zelyhn.8069:

With 30 arcane or with 20 arcane you will get pretty much all the stacks from sigil of battle because you can swap 4 times during the recharge time of your attunements. This gives a very small error margin, around 10%. As opposed to what you say, you will not miss the buff entirely, but you will have less stacks on average so somehow you have a point! Congrats! But it’s negligible.

If you have a 9.375s recharge on your Attunement and you swap on cool down and Sigil of Battle has a 10s internal Cool Down if you swap prior to Battle being up you will miss the buff entirely. Since attunements then have a 2s cool down period after swapping that’d then make you go back to a 11s cool down (same as 20 Arcane). Aren’t you the one going on about how even the smallest percentages add up?

I won’t even get into the absurdity of blowing attunements when you don’t want another function out of them (such as firing off a combo).

Zelyhn.8069:

You could take any damage!! Even plug in coefficients, or the age of you favorite pet, it does not matter because you are going to divide it by the same thing after!
All that matters when you want to know the increased damage from additional power is its proportion to your total base power.
So you did not read my hint did you?

Quite frankly you’re only explaining yourself half the time and the other half of the time you’re making assumptions on what is known (which is why I’ve repeatedly asked you to provide the formulas you’re using to calculate your numbers). In addition if you expect me to take one of your calculations seriously, you should explain what you are doing with it.

That all said comparing Power Alone you’re looking at a 1.22% increase when comparing 15.6 Power to 40 Power (and since my numbers were originally based around your 15s Might duration the % increase would be even smaller).

Zelyhn.8069:

Yes, and that’s the same thing as what I have been talking about in my last three posts. It’s still correct, and quoting it again and again won’t make it wrong.

You’re the one saying it’s wrong not me…lol

Zelyhn.8069:

So now that I have explained to you for the fourth time why my calculations are correct, the results still hold: 10% boon duration runes are suboptimal. They are suboptimal compared to ruby orbs, but I compared them to that just because you mentioned it. The real thing is when you compare two major runes of monk with two superior runes of force. It’s not hard to compute: it’s twice the benefit in power!

They’re sub-optimal for purely damage purposes but anyone could have told you that. As was discussed if you’re not in 30/30/0/10/0 build with Zerker/Zerker, Zerker/Zerker then you are “sub-optimal” damage.

Furthermore all you’ve done is proven how marginally sub-optimal they are for damage. Going 10% boon duration isn’t half the DPS because it’s only half the buff. It’s 98.78% of the DPS. That’s game changing DPS loss (lol?). This is of course, still, ignoring all the other benefits you have with additional boon duration. None of them will ever add up to be a lot or game changing in their own right, but in essence you’re giving up a marginal amount of damage for a marginal amount of more utility/survivability via Boons. This conversation is like talking about the difference between Divinity Runes and Ruby Orbs.

And WTF is a Superior Rune of Force? The only Force I know of is Sigil of Force.

Kodiak, you are looking for a forum fight, I will not fall for this. I am willing to help, but you are not willing to be helped.

I am just going to explain why the extra 10% boon duration runes are sub-optimal when you have 30 arcane and two sets of 15% boon duration runes (70% boon duration).

Elemental attunements give 5s of regen and 5s of protection (and swiftness). So with these 10% boon duration runes you get an extra 0.5 seconds for each.
The 60% boon duration already make these boons last 8 seconds, so if you add 0.5 seconds you do not even have an extra tick of regen.

As calculated above the additional might is quite small. And if you are going for more might from boons it is more optimal to go for superior runes of strength (20% might duration).

I’m out.

Actually I was just looking to help the Original Poster with my experiences before someone came in and started pooping on what I said and claiming it was “sub-optimal.” I didn’t really want to have a fight as much as request that you prove it was sub-optimal, which you have for purely damage purposes and even then only by a tiny amount.

The build I recommended with 2 Major Monks was 0/20/0/30/20 but you keep talking about 30 Arcane. You’re talking around the point when you do this and you never talk about the merits of losing 10 in water or 10 in Air to gain the 30 Arcane and the stats/DPS lost from that decision.

Talking about the benefits to one source of boons is novel and all but we’re Elementalists: We have numerous sources of boons. This is where you and I probably conflict the most. I’m trying to look at part of the forest and you’re looking at a tree in that section.

Might is just one part of the equation as previously stated, we have many boons of a variety of types many of which we can share (which is why, in your thread, you even have an Aura share build).

That’s fine, this was taking up a lot of time as is.