Guild Wars 2

loseridoit.2756:

So, far people rarely made suggestions at all and keep iterating that they use it for escape etc. which is the unintended purpose.

According to whom? And how is it balanced? As Thrash points out, what other movement skill in the game gets a double CD if it “misses” (including blocks, dodges, bugging out on terrain, etc.)?

RtL is a movement skill. It should have a similar range and CD to any other movement skill in the game (i.e. shorter range, shorter CD; longer range, longer CD) regardless of its use by the player. Heartseeker doesn’t cost 6 initiative if you use it to combo off of Black Powder without hitting anything, nor does a Warrior’s Whirlwind Attack or Rush get a double CD if its used solely as a movement skill.

So why is the Ele the only one penalized? And why is it so difficult for the pro-nerfers bandying about the term “balance” to see their own hypocrisy?

Kaleban.9834:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pfO5s9pi0c

So again, just stop posting if you can’t even be bothered to comprehend what other people are posting.

So, your agument is a engineer that is dueling two underlevel people and the engineer probably have proper gear and food buffs

i will counter that video with a d/d elemental fighting a theif and ranger

You just as bad as me as making an argument. I hope you realize that
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc4KZmy2prE

loseridoit.2756:

You just as bad as me as making an argument. I hope you realize that
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc4KZmy2prE

In the first 25 seconds, both of the Eles opponents take a 3.25 sec cast CE right to the face. Without using CC and walking right up to the Ele.

You sure you want to continue illustrating your ignorance?

Also my argument is not what you stated. If you bother watching the video, you’d see the Engy stalling multiple people in various situations. Not simply a 1v2. And when you include the word “probably” in your argument, it is you who is making the assumption not based on fact. Just quit while you’re behind.

Kaleban.9834:

loseridoit.2756:

You just as bad as me as making an argument. I hope you realize that
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc4KZmy2prE

In the first 25 seconds, both of the Eles opponents take a 3.25 sec cast CE right to the face. Without using CC and walking right up to the Ele.

You sure you want to continue illustrating your ignorance?

Also my argument is not what you stated. If you bother watching the video, you’d see the Engy stalling multiple people in various situations. Not simply a 1v2. And when you include the word “probably” in your argument, it is you who is making the assumption not based on fact. Just quit while you’re behind.

So, we spend time comparing two videos that are facing bad player to illustrate an OP class.

You realize that I purposely put a bad video to illustrate my point.

I want to compare skill cap not skill floor.

Ever heard of Akuma and Super Street Fighter. yea…

loseridoit.2756:

So, we spend time comparing two videos that are facing bad player to illustrate an OP class.

You realize that I purposely put a bad video to illustrate my point.

I want to compare skill cap not skill floor.

Ever heard of Akuma and Super Street Fighter. yea…

No you didn’t. And after watching the Ele player, he’s actually not that bad. So you fail twice, and look silly by trying to cover up your ignorance.

And do you realize that you call the Ele OP, while the entire community agrees the Engy is way underpowered, yet both videos show them doing exactly the same thing with similar effectiveness? I’d even say the Engy shows up the Ele player.

This thread isn’t about skill caps and floors, its about the balance of RtL. Its a movement skill. Other movement skills are not penalized by how they’re utilized, hence RtL is not balanced. You can’t argue this point, or you look the fool.

Kaleban.9834:

loseridoit.2756:

So, we spend time comparing two videos that are facing bad player to illustrate an OP class.

You realize that I purposely put a bad video to illustrate my point.

I want to compare skill cap not skill floor.

Ever heard of Akuma and Super Street Fighter. yea…

No you didn’t. And after watching the Ele player, he’s actually not that bad. So you fail twice, and look silly by trying to cover up your ignorance.

And do you realize that you call the Ele OP, while the entire community agrees the Engy is way underpowered, yet both videos show them doing exactly the same thing with similar effectiveness? I’d even say the Engy shows up the Ele player.

This thread isn’t about skill caps and floors, its about the balance of RtL. Its a movement skill. Other movement skills are not penalized by how they’re utilized, hence RtL is not balanced. You can’t argue this point, or you look the fool.

the opponents are a bad comparison.

I never said anything about the ele

skill cap matters more than skill floor.

Skill caps determines the class is OP

loseridoit.2756:

So, we spend time comparing two videos that are facing bad player to illustrate an OP class.

So what are you referring to with this comment then?

And stop with skill floors and caps, these are subjective opinions about a class. One person might find the Ele has a low skill cap but a Warrior a high skill cap because of the way it plays. This cannot be used for an objective balance measure because its based on biased, subjective opinion. Which is obvious.

As this thread is about RtL, and you seem to be having trouble reading, I’ll re-post what I said:

This thread isn’t about skill caps and floors, its about the balance of RtL. Its a movement skill. Other movement skills are not penalized by how they’re utilized, hence RtL is not balanced. You can’t argue this point, or you look the fool.

Kaleban.9834:

loseridoit.2756:

So, we spend time comparing two videos that are facing bad player to illustrate an OP class.

So what are you referring to with this comment then?

And stop with skill floors and caps, these are subjective opinions about a class. One person might find the Ele has a low skill cap but a Warrior a high skill cap because of the way it plays. This cannot be used for an objective balance measure because its based on biased, subjective opinion. Which is obvious.

As this thread is about RtL, and you seem to be having trouble reading, I’ll re-post what I said:

This thread isn’t about skill caps and floors, its about the balance of RtL. Its a movement skill. Other movement skills are not penalized by how they’re utilized, hence RtL is not balanced. You can’t argue this point, or you look the fool.

balancing rtl base on skill cap. A good ele will never die. Its a simple truth.

I notice you are going on other forums realizing the RTL is one of the best movement skills in the game. No other skill remotely compares to RTL.

loseridoit.2756:

I notice you are going on other forums realizing the RTL is one of the best movement skills in the game. No other skill remotely compares to RTL.

Not really. Someone did the math on these forums, RTL isn’t the best, even pre-nerf. Now with all the spam on the Ele forums it might be hard to find that… Unless the original poster can post it.

loseridoit.2756:

balancing rtl base on skill cap. A good ele will never die. Its a simple truth.

I notice you are going on other forums realizing the RTL is one of the best movement skills in the game. No other skill remotely compares to RTL.

Truth and fact are quite different. Good Eles die all the time, the high skill cap that is required is due to the artificial complexity inherent in the class design, along with seriously underpowered damage and mobility.

You noticed wrong. I was simply asking how others classes would feel if their movement skills had doubled cooldowns for no reason. Before you say the reason is Eles are OP, just stop and think for a moment. Here are the facts:

Ele was SLIGHTLY OP in sPvP due to the game mode of holding points, coupled with Ele healing.

ANet decides, in tandem with other nerfs, to hit RtL, a movement skill that does not contribute anything to bunkering on a point.

ALL other movement skills in the game stay the same, allowing players the same CD regardless if a movement skill is used as a gap closer or creator.

So, this is balanced?

P.S. here’s another link for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole

Kaleban.9834:

loseridoit.2756:

balancing rtl base on skill cap. A good ele will never die. Its a simple truth.

I notice you are going on other forums realizing the RTL is one of the best movement skills in the game. No other skill remotely compares to RTL.

Truth and fact are quite different. Good Eles die all the time, the high skill cap that is required is due to the artificial complexity inherent in the class design, along with seriously underpowered damage and mobility.

You noticed wrong. I was simply asking how others classes would feel if their movement skills had doubled cooldowns for no reason. Before you say the reason is Eles are OP, just stop and think for a moment. Here are the facts:

Ele was SLIGHTLY OP in sPvP due to the game mode of holding points, coupled with Ele healing.

ANet decides, in tandem with other nerfs, to hit RtL, a movement skill that does not contribute anything to bunkering on a point.

ALL other movement skills in the game stay the same, allowing players the same CD regardless if a movement skill is used as a gap closer or creator.

So, this is balanced?

P.S. here’s another link for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole

Heres a problem slightly matters a little too much. OP is OP.

finally, you admitted it

loseridoit.2756:

Heres a problem slightly matters a little too much. OP is OP.

finally, you admitted it

So because the Ele is somewhat OP in sPvP, ANet nerfs it in PvE and WvWvW? And nerfs skills that weren’t related to the problem in the first place?

Do you even hear yourself?

Kaleban.9834:

loseridoit.2756:

Heres a problem slightly matters a little too much. OP is OP.

finally, you admitted it

So because the Ele is somewhat OP in sPvP, ANet nerfs it in PvE and WvWvW? And nerfs skills that weren’t related to the problem in the first place?

Do you even hear yourself?

I had to reinterate what I said again. the mobility was to high that it was comparable to a thief. They had to nerf to bring it inline with other classes.

loseridoit.2756:

I had to reinterate what I said again. the mobility was to high that it was comparable to a thief. They had to nerf to bring it inline with other classes.

Oh kitten Go to the Wiki. Look at the movement skills the Warrior, Guardian and Ranger have. They, including the Thief, all had more total movement ability, as well as shorter CDs than the Ele before the nerf. Which meant any of those four could easily chase down a fleeing Ele, CC him and kill him.

The numbers don’t lie bub. RtL is ONE skill. Its on a longer CD and same range as Warrior’s Rush. Who just happens to have superior armor and health. Balanced? Try actually reading and thinking before just responding with Ele is OP yet again.

Kaleban.9834:

Oh kitten Go to the Wiki. Look at the movement skills the Warrior, Guardian and Ranger have. They, including the Thief, all had more total movement ability, as well as shorter CDs than the Ele before the nerf. Which meant any of those four could easily chase down a fleeing Ele, CC him and kill him.

Ride the Lightning, along with Lightning Flash, ignores the effects of cripples and chills, making it much better than those movement skills on other classes for the purpose of escaping from combat.

It’s also notable that not only does an elementalist have much better condition removal than thieves, warriors, and rangers, but they also have a larger movepool, meaning that they can use multiple movement skills, turn around, and use other abilities on their enemies to greater effect.

Rottaran Owain.6789:

Ride the Lightning, along with Lightning Flash, ignores the effects of cripples and chills, making it much better than those movement skills on other classes for the purpose of escaping from combat.

It’s also notable that not only does an elementalist have much better condition removal than thieves, warriors, and rangers, but they also have a larger movepool, meaning that they can use multiple movement skills, turn around, and use other abilities on their enemies to greater effect.

But not Immobilization or Knockdown, which many classes also possess. Its also notable that while in RtL, we are locked out of all of our skills, which means no way to remove CC, which other classes don’t have to worry about. And why shouldn’t the lowest armor, lowest health class have a reliable escape?

The condition removal is one of the only reliable defense mechanisms the Ele possesses. Your argument on the “movepool” is irrelevant, a Warrior with GS and x/S has three different move skills on shorter CDs and a weapon swap that for an Ele would require 25 points in one traitline. Which not only means our moves are fewer and we have to use trait points to access a mechanic all other classes get for free, but we’re also pigeonholed into builds that utilize those 25 points. Which makes signet builds, staff builds, and anything non-bunker much less viable.

Kaleban.9834:

But not Immobilization or Knockdown, which many classes also possess. Its also notable that while in RtL, we are locked out of all of our skills, which means no way to remove CC, which other classes don’t have to worry about. And why shouldn’t the lowest armor, lowest health class have a reliable escape?

The only CC you are vulnerable to is immobilize, which for the vast majority is either on a projectile that will likely miss due to the speed of RtL, or melee that will almost never be in range of the ele mid skill.

Lowest armour is also misleading. Ele has some of the best healing, and access to defensive boons. While this isn’t exactly “armour”, it gives eles much more staying power than classes like the warrior or thief who have little else but their base health and toughness. Also, it’s not uncommon for eles to have three stunbreakers on their bar at any given time, so I’m not sure why knockdown is even being noted here.

The condition removal is one of the only reliable defense mechanisms the Ele possesses. Your argument on the “movepool” is irrelevant, a Warrior with GS and x/S has three different move skills on shorter CDs and a weapon swap that for an Ele would require 25 points in one traitline. Which not only means our moves are fewer and we have to use trait points to access a mechanic all other classes get for free, but we’re also pigeonholed into builds that utilize those 25 points. Which makes signet builds, staff builds, and anything non-bunker much less viable.

Yeah, you’re locked out of that one element by noticeably longer than other classes if you don’t trait heavily into arcane. It is a problem with the elementalist on a whole, but that doesn’t make it any less true that you can use ride the lightning, use burning speed, and still have 11/16 non-auto attack skills available to you. Many of which are also good for making an escape like frost armour.

Rottaran Owain.6789:

The only CC you are vulnerable to is immobilize, which for the vast majority is either on a projectile that will likely miss due to the speed of RtL, or melee that will almost never be in range of the ele mid skill.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ride_the_Lightning

Lowest armour is also misleading. Ele has some of the best healing, and access to defensive boons. While this isn’t exactly “armour”, it gives eles much more staying power than classes like the warrior or thief who have little else but their base health and armour. Also, it’s not uncommon for eles to have three stunbreakers on their bar at any given time, so I’m not sure why knockdown is even being noted here.

Because Warrior doesn’t have blocks, and Thief doesn’t have Stealth. Oh wait. And it wasn’t misleading, its a simple fact. The access to healing, boons and condition cleanse is there to make up for lack of any inherent defenses like the above. And now with less mobility its even more important, yet got nerfed also. And Eles having three stunbreakers is a requirement because of our lack of defenses, if we had more mobility like Warriors, Thieves, Guardians or Rangers we might not need to ALWAYS run a 3 Cantrip build and could branch out into other options.

Yeah, you’re locked out of that one element by noticeably longer than other classes if you don’t trait heavily into arcane. It is a problem with the elementalist on a whole, but that doesn’t make it any less true that you can use ride the lightning, use burning speed, and still have 11/16 non-auto attack skills available to you. Many of which are also good for making an escape like frost armour.

All those other skills? Do less damage than every other class. And Frost Armor? Requires you to be in melee and be hit, with the least armor and health, and NOW with less healing and less mobility.

I seriously question how anyone could seriously look at these changes with an objective eye and conclude they’re fair and balanced, unless ANet is outsourcing balancing to FOX News.

Cant have the prof with the least hp and armor and crappy damage have mobility now,can we?
They’d have to change the title to something else from Guardians & Warriors 2.

Kaleban.9834:

I seriously question how anyone could seriously look at these changes with an objective eye and conclude they’re fair and balanced, unless ANet is outsourcing balancing to FOX News.

Welp, I was going to actually discuss this, but this statement here tells me that your views will not change depending on what people post. So there’s no point really.

Rottaran Owain.6789:

Kaleban.9834:

I seriously question how anyone could seriously look at these changes with an objective eye and conclude they’re fair and balanced, unless ANet is outsourcing balancing to FOX News.

Welp, I was going to actually discuss this, but this statement here tells me that your views will not change depending on what people post. So there’s no point really.

i was going to warn you but I realize that I have people to find out them selves.

Kaleban does not have a concept of class balance and his argument is just as bad as mine

This was the worst thing about the patch for me. Mainly because this ability was just so fun, and great for traveling. The distance wasn’t supposed to be 1550 technically, so that’s ok, but doubling the cool down? It used to be 15 seconds -_-

TheBandit.7031:

This was the worst thing about the patch for me. Mainly because this ability was just so fun, and great for traveling. The distance wasn’t supposed to be 1550 technically, so that’s ok, but doubling the cool down? It used to be 15 seconds -_-

I feel your pain.

Nerf brings quality of life issues too. Its very cool to be a ball of lighting across the map.

loseridoit.2756:

makku.2508:

loseridoit.2756:

Dude, a d/d elemental was the best build in the game.

Yep guys, you heard it. Best. Build. In. The. Game.

Seriously, stop embarassing yourself already. Get back to the Thief forum.

Was the best heals, stun, aoe damage, ridiculously high versatility to the point that everyone call it the jack of all trades, boon generation, mobility, tankinesss

yea, I really am embarassing myself

I think thieves would love some tankiness other than stealth

You’re right, bunker ele did have aoe damage, but it was very low. What’s so special about it’s attacks being aoe if they’re still weak from being bunker?
And it’s called a jack of all trades because anet called it that. That’s the only reason.
Versatility? Stuck at melee range, tanking. And no, boons generation is not a separate purpose, it’s part of that mobility and tanking.

loseridoit.2756:

I thought sPvP been d/d elemental use more glass cannon armor to do heavy damage.

lolwut? Do you even pvp/pve/play gw2? Glass eles died after beta weekend 2

Well that’s enough troll feeding to keep it alive for a while I reckon.

And on a side note: eles aren’t tanky because it’s their nature. They’re tanky because nearly all eles spec them to be that way since they can’t do anything else well. Nearly all classes are tanky if you spec them to be.

The problem with the RTL nerf is that it was a blanket nerf to all /d builds, rather than just the bunker/cantrip one.

loseridoit.2756:

Currently, food isnt balance. No matter how much we theory craft. Anet just wanted to nerf the mobility.

I dont think anybody are asking a nerf bat to their fighting abilities. They just dont want them to reset battle as easily.

I showed you in combat mobility of other professions and you stated that they are just OP due to burst. But I stated that these people use their professions very well to gain an advantage in terms of in combat mobility. Burst and defense can come from food which makes certain things seem OP when they are not is what I’m saying.

All professions can reset battles. If someone chase a Mesmer as they were far away and burn a bunch of CDs just to continue chasing and the Mesmer then engages them in battle again that it the fault of the player continuing to chase and not being smart. If I chase a thief after he/she chooses to escape and then the thief recovers Initiative and burst me to death. I should be like OMG Thief is OP they can disengage and easily engage me again. The person at fault is me because I made a bad play by continuing to chase and continuing to burn skills to continue chasing.

The truth is resetting fights is different in s/tPvP than it is in WvW. In s/tPvP you can reset fights and go somewhere else to accomplish a task like ninja a point, help defend, help capture, bunker a point, or easily come back due to the distance between points. In WvW, the same reset does nothing for your team. It doesn’t help you get a supply camp, tower, keep, or castle. On top of that the enemy could just be like I’m going to walk away and accomplish something. A fight doesn’t start again, Eles that already used RTL can’t like engage again right away since some of their skills are on CD. You do not have free reign across a WvW cause you might run into large groups. It just doesn’t have that effect.

Thieves have better battle reset since they have stealth and a lot of mobility. People that die and say that thieves can’t reset are wrong. They use a “one trick pony” build, they stealth at very low hp (1k), or they burn everything and don’t consider the worse situation and be prepared for it.

loseridoit.2756:

might stacking changes the equation a little bit which mean any build will have decent damage. I agree that there are trade off but all classes have the same trade offs.

Zerg in WvW always have some might. Might stacking on s/d is higher than d/d. d/d is just fire field with earth 4 + EA earth dodge roll. People that run sigil of battle sacrifice sigil of energy. Plus anyone can run that sigil. I might stack they might stack that doesn’t make it unique or OP.

loseridoit.2756:

Dude, figuring out when the elemental is using a certain skill and the opponent counters it. I do not see a problem. Besides, Element have access to invulnerability because these moment happen. For a class that can always overcome being overplayed is overpowered.

Guardians have blocks, aegis, and invuln to counter large numbers or being outplayed. What is your point? Mesmers have stealth, blink, jukes, and blur. Thieves have stealth and evades. All of these can be used to get out of situations. Smoke field leap anyone? RTL isn’t free try running into an organized group that chains CC. In that case you can die. There are a lot of things players on other professions can do to get out of tough situations.

The thing is nobody can pinpoint how an Ele is OP in WvW. The reason is that Eles aren’t OP in WvW. Fact is that most people that say “Eles are OP” are just rehashing a statement made by devs on SotG which again only apply to s/tPvP and WvW paints a completely different picture. This is similar to thief stealth and reveal before. And I’m sure if someone goes on SotG and states how this is bad for WvW and how RTL is buggy I’m pretty sure the devs wouldn’t think this is as great. On top of the fact that I’m sure (unless they read this thread) they aren’t aware of how bugged RTL is.

loseridoit.2756:

balancing rtl base on skill cap. A good ele will never die. Its a simple truth.

I notice you are going on other forums realizing the RTL is one of the best movement skills in the game. No other skill remotely compares to RTL.

A good anything will not die as much that is the truth. Someone good on Mesmer will die less than a player less skilled. This applies to every profession. Earth 3 on Dagger MH was bugged for a long time until a patch months ago. It kept Eles stuck at where they are even after skill usage or doesn’t take them where they were suppose to go. On paper it is strong, in reality it sucked. Just like RTL, on paper it looks really strong but in reality with the bugs and everything RTL is meh as a gap closer post patch.

RTL was not one of the best movement skills. Blinks were number one cause even if you are immobilize you can move away from danger. RTL can’t do that. Any there are a lot of “blink” like abilities in this game. RTL was slightly better than Warrior Rush because chill or cripple do not slow RTL down like it does with Warrior Rush. However even with that in mind does it deserve double the CD of Warrior Rush when both skills are used for the exact same purpose? No it doesn’t. 25s or 30s on RTL would be better.

loseridoit.2756:

I had to reinterate what I said again. the mobility was to high that it was comparable to a thief. They had to nerf to bring it inline with other classes.

And again Eles do not have mobility comparable to a thief. Not pre patch, not post patch. On top of that other professions have good mobility skills like Mesmer in combat. But your answer is that simply Mesmer is OP and have high burst. Or that sword 3 is bugged. However, the truth is that RTL is more bugged. Eles have no juke mechanics like stealth or portals in combat. You will always see where an Ele moves to. Mesmer can stealth for a short time to move to places. Mesmers can place a portal and they can choose to use it or not. Someone chasing a Mesmer and they see a portal. That person can choose to stay there and not pursue the Mesmer or they can chase and potentially get juked when the Mesmer portals.

Out of combat mobility just means you can get to places faster like a Keep to defend. Nobody goes: “Hey there is like a slow Guardian at the NW supply camp you can get there really fast Ele to take him down” while you are at the SW tower in your home BL.

loseridoit.2756:

Skill caps determines the class is OP

No it doesn’t. That would mean every class in the game is OP. If I take a lot of time to learn say Ranger and I play it extremely extremely well where I beat a lot of my enemies in WvW that doesn’t mean Rangers are OP. It just means that I am more skilled and I can use my profession to an extent where I can create either opportunities for myself to take down an enemy or I can use core mechanics to solve numerous problems I may encounter while playing my profession against other professions.

OP is like when a profession can be extremely tanky with blocks while doing high burst damage or sustained damage like warriors or thieves while being extremely easy to do this. As it stands, in Gw2 some professions like Mesmer, Eles, Thieves, and Guardians are strong professions. While others like Rangers are weak due in part because of what is needed to succeed in each game mode. Rangers can’t bunker in s/tPvP which is a large part of that game mode. Rangers don’t have high damage or lots of control or support like other professions for group fights in WvW (Think Hammer warriors, Staff ele with static field, Necros with marks, fields, and death shroud to tag everything while you are running through with AoE mitigation). Rangers don’t fit will in PvE/Dungeon due to the fact that high burst damage wins over long term constant damage. Rangers don’t bring a lot of support or utility as well. So the question becomes should they nerf Warriors because they are just darn good in dungeons or should they change the game mode (like make dungeons better) so that other professions can do well or shine. Same for s/tPvP should they just nerf professions over and over or is the problem really s/tPvP maps where bunker is a strat that is needed/used 100% of the time. If s/tPvP requires less bunker or the map is like WvW will bunker be a problem? Is there a different between a profession fighting a team of 5 versus fighting a potentially larger group in WvW that you would commonly see in high tier servers (10+)?

loseridoit.2756:

The problems is that elemental is notoriously difficult to catch and has the ability to reset battle. Thevies are still nake which the player can aoe and other goodies. Mesmer are slow. Warrior just are plainly affected by all CC. This update just limits the distance that elemental can disengage. Each fight will be a high risk and reward the way Anet wants it

Different professions use different things to make themselves hard to catch. Mesmers with blinks and jukes. Thieves with their high mobility and stealth. Shadow Refuge is the only skill that runs the risk of being AoEd. Outside of that, stealth provides good defensive cover. Think Mesmer’s stealth on utility, elite, and dodge on stealth. You aren’t staying in one place after you are in stealth. This occurs in SR because of the mechanic.

Warriors are affected by CC and post patch they received a small change for that. RTL was nerf to 1200 from 1550 range. Bug fixed or not it is still a nerf from what people used before. This is similar to Thieves and stealth during the culling patch. Removed culling and increase reveal thus nerfing stealth. This patch reveal was reverted to what it was before. RTL is an over nerf this patch similar to the culling Thief stealth nerfs before. RTL 20s is a bait and switch to make it seem like RTL isn’t nerfed as hard when the skill itself is extremely buggy and the 20s proc rarely occurs in real situations. Truth is RTL is now 40s and inferior to other low CD mobility spells. Either way if you want to escape it is easy on multiple professions (including Ele) pre and post patch.

loseridoit.2756:

RTL was design to close gaps. The nerf was anet reflection of it. Notice the 20 sec cd when RTL hits something

First off no gap closing spells in the game has a two part mechanic. Might as well make every thief mobility spell high and only low when it hits a person. Same goes for Warriors. Or just make all these mobility spells like Sword 3 on Guardian. The truth is that RTL was nerf as a gap closer this patch. 20s CD is just a smoke screen and a bait and switch to the fact that RTL is buggy and it doesn’t proc the 20s most of the time. Next, RTL + Updraft was predictable and was in every counter video since Dec. That was only good back in like early Nov. Nowadays, people easily set up or counter when they see that specific combo. What people do with RTL now is they untarget move to a target and then start combos. Or they use RTL as a “burst mobility” spell along with a few other spells to close a large gap to engage. To this end, other professions like Mesmers can do the same thing. On top of that, to proc RTL 20s outside of the bugged situations you would have to be 1000 range or less due to the speed of the skill itself. Like Earth 3 or any projectiles you can’t use it at max range and hope it works because the enemy can move away or be out of range while the projectile is moving towards them. Unless RTL is like instant light speed (kinda like blink abilities) you can never use it at 1200 range to proc 20s when the other person wants to fight at a far range.

Escape will be the same as ever, if you want to escape as an Ele you can pre or post patch. You can do the same on Thieves, Mesmers, and a number of other professions.

What this RTL nerf does is that it nerfs alternative builds and it nerfs the creative use of RTL outside of RTL+Updraft on default every time.

loseridoit.2756:

Dude all Aoe including time warp is capped at 5 random players. It takes coordination since any random player can ruin a time warp. I dont think you understand the game at all.

That is untrue. Not all AoE spells are created equally. Static field isn’t limited by 5 players. Technically it has no limit since you can stun 10+ people when they walk to it. Frost field has that as well when you walk in. Fire 5 on staff has a 5 player limit on each meteor.

loseridoit.2756:

What is hyperbole about kite wars? Putting your enemy in disadvantageous situation is a strong skill.

Every class can do that. It isn’t exclusive to Eles.

loseridoit.2756:

easy defeated by dodging. The problem is not exactly the lack of swiftness boon but the lack of swiftness uptime. Focus is a nicely design weapon in Wvwvw. Temporal curtain is awesome

RTL + Updraft combo easy to dodge. The point is Mesmers can force something like a dodge, con removal, or blink. They dodge the cripple that is fine, Mesmer is still in range to pull. They burn a blink on use OH focus that is even better. You know that a skill is on CD. They take a longer path to go around that curtain. That is fine the point is that a Mesmer can force certain things. Dodging counters most things in the game so what, it doesn’t take away from the fact that you are forcing the enemy to do something that they don’t want to do. Or you force the use of endurance or skills so that when you counter attack (if you choose to) you are at an advantage.

Eles build for swiftness they do not have skills that grant them easy swiftness. Air I (swiftness + fury on aura). Arcane V (swiftness on air attunement). Eles don’t get free swiftness it just feels that way since Eles don’t have anything else to spec into that is good from any trait line outside of Water and Arcana in WvW. This on top of the use of boon duration runes to extend the duration of boons. People that say Eles have easy access to swiftness or that they don’t have to spec for it don’t understand that Eles DO spec for swiftness (from traits and boon duration). It is just that the other traits aren’t good so you see Eles being forced to tunnel into certain trait lines.

hitfromtheboing.8361:

Stop crying and adapt. Good d/d ele will still destroy everything. Bad d/d ele will die. Just like it should be. These nerfs are putting the class/build inline with the average strengths and weaknesses of all classes. I know how to play d/d ele, and this change doesnt bother me one bit. Because the bottom line is I will still win those 1v2 or 3 situations just like ive been doing for a couple months now, the only change is not being able to run away forever from an obscene amount of ppl. What makes d/d ele great is not rtl, its the combination of boons, high dmg and sustained healing and condition removal, none of which has changed. If you are a d/d ele trying to zerg fight, something it was never meant to do, then u are stupid and u dont deserve to win or live (Learn2staffpls).

100 % correct. Someone who knows what they’re talking about.

My main problem with the nerf is that it is nerfing my fun! I deeply miss the ability to go flying across the map like weeeeeeeeee. As the elementalist is my favorite class, I am very depressed. The class doesn’t feel the same anymore.
And why am I playing this game, if it isn’t for fun?

BTdubs Please increase staff damage or decrease staff channeling time for skills. TY.

Just a quick correction — Immobilize is not the only counter to RtL. You can knockdown/pull an Ele while he’s already in lightningball mode and it will immediately knock him out of it. I see this happen the most when I’m playing my mesmer and pop temporal curtain while the ele is running away. I’ve also seen it happen when guardians place a line of warding behind the ele and the ele foolishly tries to RtL over it.

@CuRtoKy.8576

The reason I do not like your arguments because it seems like an assumption that all classes have these utilities on demand often. Although 30 seconds cd on blink is pretty low, Mesmer will usually burn through all their cd rather quick throughout the battle.

While a d/d elemental can justify their long cd because their weapon spec provide most of their survivability which means a element can last a very long time without using a single utility

Please note most of d/d weapon specs is devoted to kiting. d/d elemental is not a true melee class because majority of their skill hit beyond melee range in most classes. They can maintain a safe melee distance and still do damage. Of course many classes have range weapons but range weapons can be avoid by reflection, moving back and forth, do not require the opponent to move much, does much less damage. Some attack that do massive amounts of damage are easily dodgable or channel which is easy to migrate. They have plenty of aoe which forces the opponent to move out of the ele which help maintain that safe melee distance. Thus, the opponent are force to use a skill or dodge roll to enter the melee range of the elemental while the elemental can use it defensively. This is why thieves will never have the same mobility pool as a ele. Thief will still have to teleport or walk to their opponent to burst which means it much easier to kite a thief than a d/d elemental

td:lr once a melee burn their mobility skill to catch a d/d elemental, they still have to worry about mid battle

I keep mentioning skill cap determines a class is OP because its a fact. Ever heard of Akuma and Super Street Fighter? Akuma is a OP character in Super Street Fight. A skill enough Akuma can effectively defeat and other character in the game due to the strength of its mid range fire ball.

about my mesmer comment. Osicat is using a combination of an OP stats combination. I didnt say memser burst is OP i mention he is using a OP set of armor and food buffs which amplify his build

When Akuma made his first appearance in street fighter he was sooooooo broken lol

@ loseridiot

I don’t think your analysis of D/D ele and Mesmer fights is very accurate. I’ll respond to each of your pargraphs in order.

1) Mesmer doesn’t have to burn through his CDs any faster than Ele because both have access to weapon skills that help with survivability. Ele has heals in water attunement + earth attune for protection. Mesmer S/P + staff has phase retreat to dodge, invulnerability w/ blurred frenzy, leap-swap to dodge (you can activate swap while CCed), chaos armor and storm for boons inc. protection and blinds. Mes also has clones which he use to bodyblock single target attacks. Notably, the only thing Ele can do when stunned is to pop a cantrip or lightning aura (which only helps against certain bursts). In contrast, the mesmer can phase retreat or leap or distortion. In short, there’s no reason why a mesmer should have to burn through his utilities any faster than an ele.

2) D/D ele is not quite a kiting class. It is designed to move back and forth between melee and 600-ish range because most of your damage comes from Fire3, which requires that you be at range but it puts you into melee range, and Fire5/Earth4, which are both basically melee range. The ele has to use its mobility skills to effectively transition between these two ranges to keep up constant damage. Otherwise, the D/D ele will only deal a fraction of his damage.

3) Thief has more in-combat mobility than ele because his leaps aren’t on a CD. You can infil strike to teleport right next to the target and immobilize them, then hack away, then hit infil strike again to teleport back a near-infinite distance (the 1.2k range tooltip is wrong) to your previous position. If you’re Dagger mainhand, you have heartseeker. If you’re dagger/pistol, you have shadowshot (which you can backstab off of if you’re fast enough). Not to say that ele mobility isn’t good, but to say that it’s better than thief is a gross misstatement.

Finally, you are correct that balance should be based on what players can do at the skill cap. The problem is that you’re not considering everything at the skill cap if you only look at what one good player can do to a bunch of bad players (ie: osiecat and daphoenix’s videos). You need to look at how a game plays out when everyone is a good player. These videos don’t demonstrate that.

And I didn’t play Street Fighter much so I’ll defer to your judgment on that game.

ResJudicator.7916:

@ loseridiot

I don’t think your analysis of D/D ele and Mesmer fights is very accurate. I’ll respond to each of your pargraphs in order.

1) Mesmer doesn’t have to burn through his CDs any faster than Ele because both have access to weapon skills that help with survivability. Ele has heals in water attunement + earth attune for protection. Mesmer S/P + staff has phase retreat to dodge, invulnerability w/ blurred frenzy, leap-swap to dodge (you can activate swap while CCed), chaos armor and storm for boons inc. protection and blinds. Mes also has clones which he use to bodyblock single target attacks. Notably, the only thing Ele can do when stunned is to pop a cantrip or lightning aura (which only helps against certain bursts). In contrast, the mesmer can phase retreat or leap or distortion. In short, there’s no reason why a mesmer should have to burn through his utilities any faster than an ele.

2) D/D ele is not quite a kiting class. It is designed to move back and forth between melee and 600-ish range because most of your damage comes from Fire3, which requires that you be at range but it puts you into melee range, and Fire5/Earth4, which are both basically melee range. The ele has to use its mobility skills to effectively transition between these two ranges to keep up constant damage. Otherwise, the D/D ele will only deal a fraction of his damage.

3) Thief has more in-combat mobility than ele because his leaps aren’t on a CD. You can infil strike to teleport right next to the target and immobilize them, then hack away, then hit infil strike again to teleport back a near-infinite distance (the 1.2k range tooltip is wrong) to your previous position. If you’re Dagger mainhand, you have heartseeker. If you’re dagger/pistol, you have shadowshot (which you can backstab off of if you’re fast enough). Not to say that ele mobility isn’t good, but to say that it’s better than thief is a gross misstatement.

Finally, you are correct that balance should be based on what players can do at the skill cap. The problem is that you’re not considering everything at the skill cap if you only look at what one good player can do to a bunch of bad players (ie: osiecat and daphoenix’s videos). You need to look at how a game plays out when everyone is a good player. These videos don’t demonstrate that.

And I didn’t play Street Fighter much so I’ll defer to your judgment on that game.

1) you are describing why the memser is burning through all their skills. They doing combos on limited number of effective skills.

Leap can only be use as a gap closer since it requires a target and has a 600 range limit.

Nobody uses clones as a body block. I starting to wonder if you understand the playstyle of a mesmer from that comment alone.

2) for a build that is considered melee, 600 range is substantial. It will require other melee class to burn a cd or dodge to close the gap between user and opponent

3) Thief have opportunity cost with initative. There is a reason why thief use backstab and heartseeker because it has the best performance to cost ratio. <- Another reason why I think the class is stupidly designed

The problem is that other people are replicating the same feat.

I know potential to OP is hard but because it is possible is an issue. In the end, I do not want to question if I am worse or better player if I lose. If I lose, I want to know definitely that I suck. If the class is OP, then I wonder if I really lost.

I like commenting on Akuma because I consider him a balance bug.

I actually met one of those new ultra mobility non-CC’able warriors in WvW today. Aside from not being able to immob. him since he had that 98% reduction traited up, I couldn’t catch him at all since he had 3-4 leap skills. I can somewhat understand how other classes feel about eles now but it’s still pretty sad, especially since it would seem that Aegis, Invurn, dodge, everything pretty much triggers the 40s cd on RtL.

Probably is people would go full zerk gear and have 14k Hp. and do okay, because they could escape. Not many other classes can do that.

Now you have to decide if you want to do a ton of damage or survive.

I am elementalist. I did not classify myself as a d/d d/s or staff only. I carry all of it. Spec for what I do most often 30 air 30 water 10 arcane. I have a mix of zerk and PVT gear.

I do fine. I may not be able to face roll 1v5. I do fine against most classes. Usually comes down to skill. If I am a better player I win, if they are they win. I don’t get into fights I cannot get out of with the current skills

You facerollers who would Rtl in and mash buttons and run when you start to lose are bad.

Regear- respec – move on . Or quit the game ..

Kirbyprime.2645:

I actually met one of those new ultra mobility non-CC’able warriors in WvW today. Aside from not being able to immob. him since he had that 98% reduction traited up, I couldn’t catch him at all since he had 3-4 leap skills. I can somewhat understand how other classes feel about eles now but it’s still pretty sad, especially since it would seem that Aegis, Invurn, dodge, everything pretty much triggers the 40s cd on RtL.

You should make a mega suggestion thread on which counters trigger rtl reduce cd.

I believe I heard that they will consider block to be counted as a hit.

Now, you understand why it so hard to get thieves out of stealth. Same reasoning as RTL. Nothing really trigger reveal. In fact, I think reveal debuff was kidda unnecessary because Anet could of change the mechanics of stealth.. Now, I have a thought that culling fix didnt do much forstealth and the debuff was a hotpatch to their own ineptitude.

loseridoit.2756:

Kirbyprime.2645:

I actually met one of those new ultra mobility non-CC’able warriors in WvW today. Aside from not being able to immob. him since he had that 98% reduction traited up, I couldn’t catch him at all since he had 3-4 leap skills. I can somewhat understand how other classes feel about eles now but it’s still pretty sad, especially since it would seem that Aegis, Invurn, dodge, everything pretty much triggers the 40s cd on RtL.

You should make a mega suggestion thread on which counters trigger rtl reduce cd.

I believe I heard that they will consider block to be counted as a hit.

According to SotG they CLEARLY stated that Block is supposed to make RtL enter 20sec cooldown not 40sec… I guess they forgot about it?

loseridoit.2756:

1) you are describing why the memser is burning through all their skills. They doing combos on limited number of effective skills.

Leap can only be use as a gap closer since it requires a target and has a 600 range limit.

Nobody uses clones as a body block. I starting to wonder if you understand the playstyle of a mesmer from that comment alone.

2) for a build that is considered melee, 600 range is substantial. It will require other melee class to burn a cd or dodge to close the gap between user and opponent

3) Thief have opportunity cost with initative. There is a reason why thief use backstab and heartseeker because it has the best performance to cost ratio. <- Another reason why I think the class is stupidly designed

The problem is that other people are replicating the same feat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc4KZmy2prE

I know potential to OP is hard but because it is possible is an issue. In the end, I do not want to question if I am worse or better player if I lose. If I lose, I want to know definitely that I suck. If the class is OP, then I wonder if I really lost.

I like commenting on Akuma because I consider him a balance bug.

1a) I think you’re contradicting yourself here. Earlier you were saying that Mesmers need to burn through their UTILITY skills because their WEAPON skills don’t help them survive. I pointed out why this is false by listing all the mesmer WEAPON skills that are used to deflect or avoid damage. Thus, Mesmer and Ele both have weapon skills they can use to survive so that they don’t have to burn through their utilities. Does this make sense?

1b) Yes, leap on sword is a gap closer, which makes sense because sword is a melee weapon. Phase retreat is a gap-creator, which makes sense because staff is a ranged weapon.

1c) Many of the top tPvP mesmers use clones to block incoming attacks. You see it less in WvW because most WvW players are not as good. If you doubt me, feel free to look up some streams from the top tpvp players. In fact, I’d suggest you watch Helseth’s streams to get a better understanding of the class.
One of the tricks to being a mesmer is dancing behind your clones so that your opponent can’t hit you with headshot, shadow shot, magnetic leap, etc. Them damaging your clones is a non-issue because you’ll be shattering the clones soon anyway. This is one of the many different things you do during a fight. I’m not saying you summon a clone and sit behind him the entire fight.

2) The point I made earlier was that the Ele doesn’t do good damage if they stay at 600 range. All they have at that range is a low-damage fire1 attack (and only 2 of the 3 projectiles will hit), dragon’s breath, and frost breath (both of which have relatively low damage over the channel time). They also have RtL and Burning speed, both of which will put them in melee range if they plan on hitting the enemy.

3) Agreed about intiative being the opportunity cost. But this isn’t responsive to what I said.

4) You should balance the game around what the best players can do to each other — not what a good player can do to a bunch of terrible players. Your video describes the second situation.

maddoctor.2738:

loseridoit.2756:

Kirbyprime.2645:

I actually met one of those new ultra mobility non-CC’able warriors in WvW today. Aside from not being able to immob. him since he had that 98% reduction traited up, I couldn’t catch him at all since he had 3-4 leap skills. I can somewhat understand how other classes feel about eles now but it’s still pretty sad, especially since it would seem that Aegis, Invurn, dodge, everything pretty much triggers the 40s cd on RtL.

You should make a mega suggestion thread on which counters trigger rtl reduce cd.

I believe I heard that they will consider block to be counted as a hit.

According to SotG they CLEARLY stated that Block is supposed to make RtL enter 20sec cooldown not 40sec… I guess they forgot about it?

Specifically, the SotG mentioned Aegis, not block, however even then the dev only speculated that it should count as a hit. As for hard evidence, since it was a WvW situation, I don’t want to say concretely that block caused a 40s CD. From a quick PvP npc test, I can confirm that invulnerable and miss ( blind ) causes 40s. I can’t seem to find anything that uses block or aegis to test yet.

EDIT: Checking block on Asc. fighter mobs also cause a 40s cooldown.

@ResJudicator.7916

1a) I am not contracting myself. Mesmer are design in such a way that they burn through all their cooldown very quickly. d/d Elemental rarely need to use their utilities since most of their survivablity is built in their weapon set. My writing is really bad if I didnt get that message accross. its very easy to burn chaos storm, phase retreat, mirror blade, or any other mesmer skill quickly. They actually need utilites to compasate for the extra down time since some skill are situational such as i leap and others just summon clones for dps which do not add to the survivability.

1b) The other guy keep mention Ileap for escape mobility which mean I have to say about the conditions tp use it properly

1c) I watched Helseth streams, he is a god at phase retreat. He is also good at spike combos. He rearly use his clones as a shield. No pro player will be fooled by a clone and he needs it for dps. In fact, wvwvw is easier to body block with clones because clones diversion only works on bad players. If I am using clones as defense, then I basically am insulting that player for their lack of experience.

2) I know, aoe is balance on the face that the damage is kidda medoicre; however, a properly boon stack and gear element makes those aoe too difficult to not ignore

3) Opportunity cost matters for a thief. things like infatrator arrow is quite expensive for a thief to use which means that he will have less inititives for his attack combos.

4) I agree that the game should balance on the best. I am also noting that its possible for other people to becoming just as good as the best which means Dapheniox and Osicat are no longer isolated cases which means we need class balance

Problem was people freaking out over RTL’s bugged range, making it that much harder to catch eles after using it.

So…they fix the range, reducing it from 1550 to 1200. Should solve the problem right?

….but then they tack on the stupid cooldown thing besides for god knows what reason

loseridoit.2756:

@ResJudicator.7916

1a) I am not contracting myself. Mesmer are design in such a way that they burn through all their cooldown very quickly. d/d Elemental rarely need to use their utilities since most of their survivablity is built in their weapon set. My writing is really bad if I didnt get that message accross. its very easy to burn chaos storm, phase retreat, mirror blade, or any other mesmer skill quickly. They actually need utilites to compasate for the extra down time since some skill are situational such as i leap and others just summon clones for dps which do not add to the survivability.

1c) I watched Helseth streams, he is a god at phase retreat. He is also good at spike combos. He rearly use his clones as a shield. No pro player will be fooled by a clone and he needs it for dps. In fact, wvwvw is easier to body block with clones because clones diversion only works on bad players. If I am using clones as defense, then I basically am insulting that player for their lack of experience.

Apologies, I misunderstood your post about burning through utilities. But I your argument still doesn’t sound right to me. Why do you think mesmer has to burn through his weapon skills any faster than ele does? Both classes need to constantly cycle through their weapon skills depending on how the combat is going. Mesmer’s weapon defensive skills are also on a very low cooldown (e.g. blurred frenzy 10s, or 8s traited).

I think the best argument that can be made for you is that Ele doesn’t use his utilities as much because — except for lightning flash and to some extent armor of earth -- they are purely defensive. Mistform has absolutely no offensive component (except maybe as a terrible gap closer) and cleansing fire’s burning is negligible. Thus, eles don’t use their utilities as much simply because there are fewer situations in which they are useful. And because their cooldowns are so long, eles want to save them for emergencies.

Blink and decoy and mirror image all have offensive as well as defensive components, and they’re all on a short enouh cooldown that most mesmers will use them for offense as well as defense. Thus, mesmers will tend to burn through their utilities faster — NOT BECAUSE THEY NEED TO, BUT BECAUSE THEY CAN. This is part of the reason why mesmers have such strong offensive potential.

In light of the above, I don’t think it’s a good argument to say that the RtL nerf was justified because eles tend to burn through their cooldowns slower.

And about clone bodyblocking, what I mean is you play normally but you tend to keep the clones between you and your opponent. Every good player will know that you’re the real mesmer, but even if they target you, their projectiles will hit your clones before they hit you. This makes it a lot harder for certain classes to land their abilities, such as shadowshot, magnetic leap, headshot, etc.

Clone bodyblocking does not mean using the clones as decoys to trick your opponent, or counting on the clones to shield you from damage. Think of it as another way of LOS-ing your opponent. Like sometimes when someone is shooting at you, you will run behind a rock or a pillar to break his line of sight. Running behind your clone to break their shadow shot is similar. The shadowshot will hit the clone instead of you and the thief will end up teleporting to the clone instead of you. That’s all bodyblocking means.

Can you all keep an eye on your RTL cd?
I hit a sentry near our garrison earlier (actually hit not blocked, stunned etc.), just before I flipped from Air to Fire, I saw the cd said 25 seconds.
Considering how many bugs are in this patch, was wondering if this was a one off or…

ResJudicator.7916:

Apologies, I misunderstood your post about burning through utilities. But I your argument still doesn’t sound right to me. Why do you think mesmer has to burn through his weapon skills any faster than ele does? Both classes need to constantly cycle through their weapon skills depending on how the combat is going. Mesmer’s weapon defensive skills are also on a very low cooldown (e.g. blurred frenzy 10s, or 8s traited).

If you didnt understood what I wrote, then its my fault as the writer.

The problem with mesmer defense is due to its active nature. Many of mesmer defenses are meant not to sustain survival but running away from a instant treat such as a kill shot. It not possible to look at the cd at face value. Many other classes have more passive defensive such as defense boons which pad the cd of other skills. For example, stealth keep the character invisible for X seconds which lower the cd of other skills for X seconds. Yea I know about decoy; however, the cd is little high

I understand that blurr frenzy is 8 sec cd with 2 sec on invul; however, it very easy to use all the defensive and dodges quickly. Resource management also mean cycling through abilities. i believe this small but huge difference is the reason why mesmer have so many defense abilities on relatively low cd. Blurr frenzy really help lower the cd of their other defense skills.

I think the best argument that can be made for you is that Ele doesn’t use his utilities as much because — except for lightning flash and to some extent armor of earth -- they are purely defensive. Mistform has absolutely no offensive component (except maybe as a terrible gap closer) and cleansing fire’s burning is negligible. Thus, eles don’t use their utilities as much simply because there are fewer situations in which they are useful. And because their cooldowns are so long, eles want to save them for emergencies.

There are few skill that are used for emergencies such as rtl and frost aura but many of element skill are sort of time padded. The nature of the animations add to the time which sort lessen the cd of other skill. I will consider most of their skill as burst to some sense.

ResJudicator.7916:

Blink and decoy and mirror image all have offensive as well as defensive components, and they’re all on a short enouh cooldown that most mesmers will use them for offense as well as defense. Thus, mesmers will tend to burn through their utilities faster — NOT BECAUSE THEY NEED TO, BUT BECAUSE THEY CAN. This is part of the reason why mesmers have such strong offensive potential.

In light of the above, I don’t think it’s a good argument to say that the RtL nerf was justified because eles tend to burn through their cooldowns slower.

The argument about burning cd is not a argument for the RTL nerf but to state that Mesmers does not nesscary can plan to escape easily due to the fact that they have to chain their get out of jail cards which are more likely to be on cd. In addition, they have to chain temporal curtain, blink or etc. Mesmers are pretty slow which makes it more difficult.

My argument for the RTL nerf is that its little to easy for an elemental to reset a battle

Despite all their strengths in their weapon set, fighting them is not overpowered but balanced. Having them running away and reseting any battle at their own lesiure is kidda OP.

And about clone bodyblocking, what I mean is you play normally but you tend to keep the clones between you and your opponent. Every good player will know that you’re the real mesmer, but even if they target you, their projectiles will hit your clones before they hit you. This makes it a lot harder for certain classes to land their abilities, such as shadowshot, magnetic leap, headshot, etc.

Clone bodyblocking does not mean using the clones as decoys to trick your opponent, or counting on the clones to shield you from damage. Think of it as another way of LOS-ing your opponent. Like sometimes when someone is shooting at you, you will run behind a rock or a pillar to break his line of sight. Running behind your clone to break their shadow shot is similar. The shadowshot will hit the clone instead of you and the thief will end up teleporting to the clone instead of you. That’s all bodyblocking means.

I understand but Heisein rarely have a chance to body block. Most his of body blocks are an accidental result of using phase retreat.

Losing clones in battle is quite determental in some build. Clones are use for shatter foddler which means a loss of dps which I think its rather pointless because phase retreat teleports.

Really, clones are bad for body blocking. Phastasms are better because they are a real threat. I think its much easier to body block using a iWarden.

Bottom line is, ele is ‘jack of all trades’ class in this game. He was king of mobility, and now he’s not.

Also, the bug fix from 1550 to 1200 was delicious news.

Ele wasn’t king of mobility, ele was 3rd.

Perma-swift and 1550 RtL that isn’t effected by slows on a 15s cooldown. As long as you knew how to push more than one button at a time, you could get away from anyone.

I`m not sure where Ele` was in the way of mobility, but pre-patch I had a necro & ranger that were both faster (& lower level by miles). My mesmer would`ve been faster but was lazy & didn`t build for speed (mainly because it wasn`t needed at any time).
Post patch, well Ele` I`m guessing are last or very close to it.