Guild Wars 2

TheGuy.3568:

I think this perspective changes with tier. The other thing is thief, ranger, mesmer and warrior can all keep up in a comparable set so no it does not allow you to escape most classes. If we are being serous here even a guardian could keep up for a while with Sw/GS set and judge’s.

As warrior last time I dropped a DD ele it was for the same reason I always do. I time my cripple which is enhanced by leg specialist after I see the water attunement. The ele cant out dash me so pinning them down isn’t that big an issue.

Tier as in WvW tier? I play in Ehmry Bay. Sometimes you’re met with a zerg, sometimes it’s a small group, other times it’s just one guy. The only thing I find remotely threatening is, like you said, the same sort of cripple/immobilize stuff I run on my warrior. I mean, classes can chase you all over and land little bits of damage, but I’ve never really found that threatening, mostly due to the other things ele has to offer. I like that the classes are made more comparable in this area now, but it’s a shame they just want to nerf the same skill over and over to accomplish that.

The problem about nerfing RTL is, that it doesn’t affect a bunker that hard (like stated many times before), but actually forces more and more hybrid builds (relying on RTL instead of deep Water Traitlines and Cantrips) into going bunker.

Right at the moment most classes can outrun an Ele quite easily (for some classes that was even true prenerf – calculations can be found all over the forum).

I am aware of the fact, that we still can use a Fiery Greatsword to travel/escape, even though I doubt that’s an Conjure Elite’s intended use. Even then there will be enough classes outrunning you, but at least you have burnt your Elite for keeping up a while.

What ANet seems to have failed to notice is: The problem about the bunker build was never its mobility but the synergies created in the used traitlines, when it comes to healing and condition cleansing → that would be the right place for a nerf, if you really think a bunker should not be a real bunker.

So I don’t understand why they try to make things better by repeatedly taking the wrong actions. If it’s only to make thief the most mobile class, why not give them more mobility instead of nerfing another classes mobility?

By this one nerf (talking about CD, not the range fix, this was needed) they did the following:
- Forced hybrids into bunker (the build they actually wanted to destroy)
- Therefore destroyed the least bit of diversity left (even though I will keep playing my hybrid, hoping ANet will notice the flaws in their logic someday)
- Destroyed the Ele’s (whole class, not bunker) roaming capability on big maps (mainly WvW)
- Nerfed the overall mobility of the class for traveling in PvE
- Bunkers are still bunkers, but slower → they will still outheal you and even get away with their Cantrip stunbreakers
- Success?

I hope the next few patches will reflect some understanding for class mechanics, because at the moment the patchnotes read like they are randomly nerfing and buffing without thinking about consequences (in general, not just in case of Eles). I really hope that’s not the case, even though the stream when they announced the changes and their reaction to feedback regarding the actual consequences on Ele hybrid builds tell me the contrary.

So in the next patch I expect an increase of the RTL cooldown to at least 90s then? :P

^The 5 sec cleansing water thing to stop cantrip spamming was also pretty useless imo. I mean, who spammed their cantrips just to remove conditions? They’re better saved for stunbreaking. And even if they did spam them for condition removal, now they’re out of their precious cantrips!

It hit staff’s healing rain and the aoe regeneration from swapping to water harder.

Navzar.2938:

^The 5 sec cleansing water thing to stop cantrip spamming was also pretty useless imo. I mean, who spammed their cantrips just to remove conditions? They’re better saved for stunbreaking. And even if they did spam them for condition removal, now they’re out of their precious cantrips!

It hit staff’s healing rain and the aoe regeneration from swapping to water harder.

That’s true. No matter if I’m running my hybrid or bunker, I would never spam any Cantrips for cleanse. It’s nice to have the effect of course, but to be honest, I don’t feel the difference when running D/D.

But when running with Staff as a healer/supporter, I notice the difference a lot when casting the rain. When running a different build with less healing it’s even worse because you need the cleanse…

I hope ANet has some future plans to make up for it, because they did exactly the contrary of what they were stating prepatch (weaken bunker, make other builds viable, etc.).

i’ve been playing ele since launch and i actually agree to the nerf.

RTL 1200 range is a fix from hidden 1500 – i don’t see why 1500 is ever intended for a gap closer/ fleeing mechanism; 1500 in 1 cast is higher than everything else

RTL 1200, 40s cd makes this on par with similar skills – guardian’s JI is 1200, 45s cd; – JI requires a target.

in addition to RTL, Ele can cast with lightning flash 900, 45s – which is comparable to mesmer blink 900, 30s – sure cd is slower, but we have 2 options, which adds up to 2100 distance.

imo, the lack of target requirements and superb range still makes it the #1 fleeing/ gap closer.

also i dont know why everyone says THF has better mobility than ELE –
Thief’s shortbow is 900 range, can cast 2-3 times in succession. and thieves only have 25% move speed with shadows signet – that is similar to Ele’s air signet
Ele has perma swiftness (33%), which thief doesnt. lastly Ele shed conditions easily, Thf’s condition removal is laughable.

all in all, it is a massive challenge for thief to catch a ele.

sure it is a big painful nerf that takes away the king of hill mobility but i’m still happy with RTL :P

another useful and credible post talking of balance in a world that cannot be balanced such PvE/WWW/PvP.

Any post that doesn t consider the differences in all 3 game modes are a waste of bytes imho…

In PvP it MAY be balanced dunno because pvp is clearly a “silly” game mode based on things that have really nothing to do with the rest of the game (surviving in a circle or running around?)

In WWW it makes no sense….D/D ele is all about mobility it lacks damage it lacks range it lacks survivability (you can t really survive in zergs even in balabnced numbers)….the fact that you try to compare it with the slowest profession in the game that has clones stealth and so many defensive stuff you can t even imagine is debatable.

Go on compare it with THIEVES

In PvE well PvE is a disaster and an insult to PvE players balance Wyse….D/D would need 2X damage and half CDs on all skills to get a chance to be comparable to other classes/weaponsets…..

But just to not forget:
The nerf was aimed at the silly spirit watch…
And the buffed PvE warrior

How can you even use the word balance looking at the mess they did….its clear they messed up completely.

P.P.S: Thief will catch ANY ele without effort…
The opposite simply now is impossible ele lost his chance to reach any fleeing target.
flame GS is ont a solution

Having easy access to Swiftness + having a 25% runspeed signet is (from the perspective of a Dev) plenty run speed increase. I doubt they view RtL as a movement tool in their balancing, in fact, this nerf discourages exactly that.

Carighan.6758:

Having easy access to Swiftness + having a 25% runspeed signet is (from the perspective of a Dev) plenty run speed increase. I doubt they view RtL as a movement tool in their balancing, in fact, this nerf discourages exactly that.

Why then does the warrior still have a 20sec cd rush or the rangers 12sec swoop-when its obviously not a movement tool for a classes that have perma-swiftness and a 25% rs signet?

Jason.9643:

i’ve been playing ele since launch and i actually agree to the nerf.

RTL 1200 range is a fix from hidden 1500 – i don’t see why 1500 is ever intended for a gap closer/ fleeing mechanism; 1500 in 1 cast is higher than everything else

RTL 1200, 40s cd makes this on par with similar skills – guardian’s JI is 1200, 45s cd; – JI requires a target.

in addition to RTL, Ele can cast with lightning flash 900, 45s – which is comparable to mesmer blink 900, 30s – sure cd is slower, but we have 2 options, which adds up to 2100 distance.

imo, the lack of target requirements and superb range still makes it the #1 fleeing/ gap closer.

also i dont know why everyone says THF has better mobility than ELE –
Thief’s shortbow is 900 range, can cast 2-3 times in succession. and thieves only have 25% move speed with shadows signet – that is similar to Ele’s air signet
Ele has perma swiftness (33%), which thief doesnt. lastly Ele shed conditions easily, Thf’s condition removal is laughable.

all in all, it is a massive challenge for thief to catch a ele.

sure it is a big painful nerf that takes away the king of hill mobility but i’m still happy with RTL :P

Lots of wrong info in that post.

First, RtL is not comparable to judge’s intervention. Judge’s intervention is an instant-cast teleport. Having played an ele since beta, I’m sure you already know the difference between the two. In case you don’t, here are a few: (1) You can start an attack, then JI next to your target to finish the attack (very useful w/ hammer 3&5). You can’t do the same with RtL; (2) You can’t RtL while immobilized, and you can be pulled/knockbacked out of RtL. The same is not true for teleports, such as JI.
You are, however, correct that JI requires a target (although the target need not be in range); (3) JI, like all teleports, can move up and down the Z-axis to hit people above and below you. RtL can only move down.

Second, Lightning Flash is not comparable to blink because lightning flash has a 50% longer cooldown. Even when traited, lightning flash has a longer CD than an untraited blink. And while Ele can have RtL on top of flash, mesmer can have phase retreat on top of blink. Phase retreat moves you about 450 units on an 8s cooldown. That means 5 casts per 1 RtL. Even if you don’t manage the cooldowns perfectly and only get 4 casts in the cycle, you still win out on distance.

Third, regarding thief mobility, two SB5s move you farther than RtL and your init will regen before RtL’s cooldown is even half over. SB5 is also a blink, so it can move along the Z-axis, is immune to immobilize, and is slightly more difficult for your opponent to track. Next, while shadow signet only gives +25% movespeed, heartseeker will benefit from this increased movespeed. As a result, a thief spamming heartseeker out of combat will cover more distance than even an FGS ele. RtL is not affected by your movespeed (which is both good and bad). You’ll get 1.2k range whether you have swiftness, cripple, or chill on you. Thief also has shadowstep, which is a better version of blink, along with multiple other teleports. Finally, Thief can shed conditions just as easily as ele w/ shadow’s embrace (10pt trait). It’s only the full-on glass cannon thieves that have trouble with conditions. (Disclaimer: I don’t think thieves need a nerf. I’m perfectly happy with how thieves work.).

The main advantage that RtL has in terms of mobility is that you can jump a lot of gaps with it and you can get the full 1.2k range even when slowed. An ele that wants to disengage now has to rely more on timing chills, cripples, and stuns/blowouts to slow down its pursuers. But those skills are a lot less reliable depending on who is chasing you and how good they are.

The long and short of it is that the RtL nerf was great for tPvP but bad for WvW (encourages more eles to zerg rather than roam) and pointless for PvE (where this kind of mobility is purely a quality-of-life issue).

Hahaha when anet said they want to make thieves more mobile I was ecstatic. However, I didn’t anticipate that by more mobile they meant make other fast classes LESS mobile… I suppose that’s another way to do it. Sigh.

Why dont they make rtl 900 range 15 sec cd in combat en 1200 range 15 sec cd out combat? if they can make a cd split they can also do something like this

Jason.9643:

i’ve been playing ele since launch and i actually agree to the nerf.

RTL 1200 range is a fix from hidden 1500 – i don’t see why 1500 is ever intended for a gap closer/ fleeing mechanism; 1500 in 1 cast is higher than everything else

RTL 1200, 40s cd makes this on par with similar skills – guardian’s JI is 1200, 45s cd; – JI requires a target.

in addition to RTL, Ele can cast with lightning flash 900, 45s – which is comparable to mesmer blink 900, 30s – sure cd is slower, but we have 2 options, which adds up to 2100 distance.

imo, the lack of target requirements and superb range still makes it the #1 fleeing/ gap closer.

also i dont know why everyone says THF has better mobility than ELE –
Thief’s shortbow is 900 range, can cast 2-3 times in succession. and thieves only have 25% move speed with shadows signet – that is similar to Ele’s air signet
Ele has perma swiftness (33%), which thief doesnt. lastly Ele shed conditions easily, Thf’s condition removal is laughable.

all in all, it is a massive challenge for thief to catch a ele.

sure it is a big painful nerf that takes away the king of hill mobility but i’m still happy with RTL :P

It would be nice if when trying to support an argument people would stop resorting to disinformation and BS to make their case. Judge’s Insight is not a weapon skil, it is a utility skill for example, comparing utility skill cooldowns to weapon skill cooldowns, is just stupid. Especially when you have a wealth of evidence in game, on the wiki, etc.

Or posting about how RtL combined with LF is further than a Mesmer’s Blink. Well duh. But add in Phase Retreat. Wrong again. Your Thief example fails to include the regeneration of Initiative over a 40s period to account for RtL’s cooldown. Barring any additional initiative regen (which is ludicrous as every Thief traits for some of it anyways), it will go from 0 to 12 in just under 16 seconds. Which means a Thief could use IA twice for 1800 range every 16 seconds, or four times for 3600 range every 32 seconds. While that leaves the Thief with little or no initiative, its a fair comparison if you’re comparing them as movement/escape skills. An Ele fleeing via RtL is not spamming attack skills, just as a Thief fleeing with IA.

If you’ve ACTUALLY been playing Ele since launch, you’d realize that everything you posted is factually incorrect at worst, intentionally misleading at best. And that’s the problem with the majority of the “nerf Ele” crowd.

I don’t see the problem with making RTL exactly like a Warrior’s Rush on Greatsword.

This includes, the same speed, the same effected by CC and cool down etc.

Of course, this would ignore the many issues warrior has as a class, but that’s for another topic indeed.

How would it please other Ele’s to have RtL exactly like Rush as a skill? I would’t mind it, but then again….

If you’re having balance issues I feel bad for you son, I got 99 problems but RTL aint one.

PistolWhip.2697:

I don’t see the problem with making RTL exactly like a Warrior’s Rush on Greatsword.

This includes, the same speed, the same effected by CC and cool down etc.

Of course, this would ignore the many issues warrior has as a class, but that’s for another topic indeed.

How would it please other Ele’s to have RtL exactly like Rush as a skill? I would’t mind it, but then again….

If you’re having balance issues I feel bad for you son, I got 99 problems but RTL aint one.

errr… do you realize that changing rtl to rush is a massive nerf to rtl?

This change will nerf the rtl so hard that I will stand with you guys and advocate a 15 cd revert regardless of hit.

RTL is must faster
RTL is more reliable
Most classes CC cannot catch and d/d elemental with RTL <- yes it is that fast
RTL is not affect by immobile after the skill is activated
Rush does not have a knock down
RTL is not affect by cripple.
Good news, rush can be boosted by a speed boon which increase the distance by a little bit

That’s why I said it man.

RTL is miles better and yet they keep asking for Rush on a warrior’s bar. If they want it, let them have it. I’m willing to suffer through it on my ele just so you guys get how stupid it is to compare both skills.

Tho RTL doesnt have a knock down, the Updraft shouldn’t be a part of this convo tbh, its a separate skill, so like Rush RTL doesnt have a knock down either.

PistolWhip.2697:

I don’t see the problem with making RTL exactly like a Warrior’s Rush on Greatsword.

This includes, the same speed, the same effected by CC and cool down etc.

Of course, this would ignore the many issues warrior has as a class, but that’s for another topic indeed.

How would it please other Ele’s to have RtL exactly like Rush as a skill? I would’t mind it, but then again….

If you’re having balance issues I feel bad for you son, I got 99 problems but RTL aint one.

This was brought up many times before by other suggesting this as an appropriate nerf to RTL, but few understood why this would actually buff bunker specs even more. This is because only the cripple/chill effect was looked at, but looking deeper, we see that:

- Swiftness affects Rush. Eles have easy access to cleansing and swiftness, so RTL would pretty much revert back to being a 1500 range gap closer.

- Utilities and class mechanics are not locked out during Rush, unlike RTL. This can create more problems if eles could use lightning flash, cleansing flame, or signet of earth during RTL.

- Rush can be self-interrupted. If Rtl is made the same, eles would be able to control the distance travelled by Rtl with a press of a button.

As a result, I’m sure we’d get many more complaints from other classes about this if RTL was made to be mechanically exact to warrior’s Rush.

PistolWhip.2697:

That’s why I said it man.

RTL is miles better and yet they keep asking for Rush on a warrior’s bar. If they want it, let them have it. I’m willing to suffer through it on my ele just so you guys get how stupid it is to compare both skills.

Tho RTL doesnt have a knock down, the Updraft shouldn’t be a part of this convo tbh, its a separate skill, so like Rush RTL doesnt have a knock down either.

true, i might at well add it because it part of the combo.

warrior cast times are pretty horrible that knock downs are pretty hard to use properly

I was more so being sarcastic. I just hate seeing other ele’s complain about how good Warriors have it. Its like they ignore the multitude of problems Warriors have, and how they are regarded widely as one of the weakest classes outside PvE.

Ele’s have problems, but RTL is the least of our worries, we have other things Dev’s should focus on that take precedence. I don’t mind taking an extra 20 seconds to go somewhere if it means I can use Staff in a 1v1 viably in the future.

Also, Hey Cirax!

PistolWhip.2697:

I was more so being sarcastic. I just hate seeing other ele’s complain about how good Warriors have it. Its like they ignore the multitude of problems Warriors have, and how they are regarded widely as one of the weakest classes outside PvE.

Ele’s have problems, but RTL is the least of our worries, we have other things Dev’s should focus on that take precedence. I don’t mind taking an extra 20 seconds to go somewhere if it means I can use Staff in a 1v1 viably in the future.

Also, Hey Cirax!

trying to do a warhorn build for warrior and it the hardest build I ever made.

There isnt any room for error for that build and no matter what I do. A BM ranger will always kill me

That’s because BM Rangers emphasize staying power and toughness and let their pet kill you. Aside from all the ridiculousness of that build, they focus on staying power. You know what the one class with hardly any staying power is? Warrior, that is why they make you fall flat :P.

I also am looking into Warhorn, perma swiftness can be neat!

Hey PistolWhip, been a while :p

And I would totally leave RTL in the dust if they improved staff to be more independently viable!

Totally! Imagine all the cool things a 1v1 Staff ele could do if viable xD would be some awesome stuff, and refreshing!

Cirax.9231:

PistolWhip.2697:

I don’t see the problem with making RTL exactly like a Warrior’s Rush on Greatsword.

This includes, the same speed, the same effected by CC and cool down etc.

Of course, this would ignore the many issues warrior has as a class, but that’s for another topic indeed.

How would it please other Ele’s to have RtL exactly like Rush as a skill? I would’t mind it, but then again….

If you’re having balance issues I feel bad for you son, I got 99 problems but RTL aint one.

This was brought up many times before by other suggesting this as an appropriate nerf to RTL, but few understood why this would actually buff bunker specs even more. This is because only the cripple/chill effect was looked at, but looking deeper, we see that:

- Swiftness affects Rush. Eles have easy access to cleansing and swiftness, so RTL would pretty much revert back to being a 1500 range gap closer.

- Utilities and class mechanics are not locked out during Rush, unlike RTL. This can create more problems if eles could use lightning flash, cleansing flame, or signet of earth during RTL.

- Rush can be self-interrupted. If Rtl is made the same, eles would be able to control the distance travelled by Rtl with a press of a button.

As a result, I’m sure we’d get many more complaints from other classes about this if RTL was made to be mechanically exact to warrior’s Rush.

actually, I will argue that will nerf bunkers alot more than you think. Now, elemental are forced to use utilities to overcome the issues of the rush mechanic. Elementalist utilities have really long cd.

We will have more QQ on elementalist form since they are more squishier than ever and RTL seem slow

I disagree that utilities would have to be used often to compensate for the downsides of RTL being like rush. Traiting water attunement to remove 1-2 conditions before switching to air will get eles out of most situations in this case. The use of utilites during RTL would be more of a bonus, like Rtl > lightning flash up a cliff, covering z-axis distances, or Rtl > signet of earth on target > guaranteed updraft if the immob is not cleaned in time.

I don’t think there would be many situations forcing an ele to blow utilities just to escape safely with Rush-version RTL. Even if you have to use them, you’d likely be well out of harms way for your skill to come off cd safely. It’s all speculation though, but on-demand cleansing and easy access to swiftness would make Rush-RTL way too strong.

Rush also often misses when it shouldn’t. Lol its a pretty buggy horrible skill in most cases.

Cirax.9231:

I disagree that utilities would have to be used often to compensate for the downsides of RTL being like rush. Traiting water attunement to remove 1-2 conditions before switching to air will get eles out of most situations in this case. The use of utilites during RTL would be more of a bonus, like Rtl > lightning flash up a cliff, covering z-axis distances, or Rtl > signet of earth on target > guaranteed updraft if the immob is not cleaned in time.

I don’t think there would be many situations forcing an ele to blow utilities just to escape safely with Rush-version RTL. Even if you have to use them, you’d likely be well out of harms way for your skill to come off cd safely. It’s all speculation though, but on-demand cleansing and easy access to swiftness would make Rush-RTL way too strong.

ummm…breaking channel mean you are not running away or using a long cd cantrip. Should you consider that a win for the chaser or attacker?

Oh, well…arguments are pointless because writing things on paper doesnt always means they will happen in practice. I guess Anet never figure out the power of RTL of an escape when they designed it.

PistolWhip.2697:

Rush also often misses when it shouldn’t. Lol its a pretty buggy horrible skill in most cases.

naw try bull charge. errr 40 sec cd stun….

Yeah, they still have some skill bugs to iron out on all professions. Rush hits pretty slow but hard ; though it does miss a lot.. so there goes the compenstation for having a slow skill animation ><

Cirax.9231:

Yeah, they still have some skill bugs to iron out on all professions. Rush hits pretty slow but hard ; though it does miss a lot.. so there goes the compenstation for having a slow skill animation ><

I think the game hit mechanics are pretty broken. I cannot believe they made RTl rely on their buggy implementation of their hit mechanics

I times when enemies hit through invulnerability a few times….

Rush= 1200 in two sec, RTL= 1200 in two sec. RTL’s main advantage is not being affected by snares.
IMO, rush would be better for bunkers than the current 40sec cd rtl. Why? Being unreliable with hitting targets doesn’t matter when running away. Sure, it’s affected by snares, but what are bunker eles good at? Removing conditions.

In other use, it might not be as good for running away, but it is nice for normal long distance travel in pve or wvw in conjunction with perma swiftness.

I’d miss losing the rest of the extended jumps though, but overall, it wouldn’t be too bad, and not being affected by snares was always a pretty unfair advantage anway :p

Any new news about the nerf that they will change rtl with an shorter cd or something like that?