Guild Wars 2

Wolfric.9380:

I don´t think a global burn nerf by reducing damage would have much impact on d/d eles. Especially in higer tier play. Maybe its enough. but it won´t solve any build diversity problems and still only leave d/d meta with water + cantrips left. It would also have a slight negative impact on many other ele builds where burn is secondary damage.

Its impact on other builds is unimportant – a global burn damage nerf is going to happen because it is the single most powerful condition in the game right now. Condi builds viability is judged on how good their burn application is, not on the variety on condis anymore.

As for diversity, again burning damage nerfs won’t magically solve that true, but neither will just destroying ele sustain. Its like you didn’t read my first post – we have already seen what happens when ele sustain is nerfed. The class completely disappears from the competition. Culling the strong builds does not enable the weak builds it just culls classes. Buffs to the weak parts of the class (burst, dedicated condi) need to happen for diversity to truly exist.

Gokil.2543:

This thread is based on the premise that DD ele will receive nerfs sooner rather than later. Please do not discuss if you think this is justified or not. The point of this thread is to propose some intelligent ways to nerf it, since there has been a history of far-fetched ways to nerf obvious problems from Anet’s side.

Numero uno:
Nerf ring of fire. This skill is the main source of burning, and consequently the main culprit when it comes to catching out players that are not fully aware of how ele works. This skill is not fun to use, since you completely rely on your opponent to not know/pay attention, and not fun to play against, since it’s counterintuitive for this one mediocre particle effect to apply more burning than an entire channel of drake’s breath for example.

This skill is way out of line, and I don’t understand the reason why they chose this one out of the entire ele skillset to buff so hard when the burning changes hit. Proposed change: Change burn stacks to 1 and/or add a 0.5s icd on getting burned by this skill.
———————————
if you do that, nerf the ring from guard too, or make ring of fire a prison too, if you dont have stabilty.
i think its your own mistake if it hits you more than one time.
but i agree with a nerf.
Number 2:
Nerf cleanse on cantrips. This one might seem a bit far-fetched, but let me explain.

There used to be a lot of play to watching an eles attunements with regard to condi application. You’d time your condis (particularly chill), until after the ele left water, screw up his rotation and thus gain the upper hand by intelligent decision making. However ever since we got the new water line, the amount of cleanse ele has outside of water attunement is incredibly high, which has more or less led to this depth being lost. We’re talking cleansing fire+traited cleansing fire+armor+lightning flash for a total of 10 cleanses not tied to water. 1 more if you count regen+frost aura when critically hit.
—————————————
no, plz not, BUFF other utilitys DONT nerf cantrips a third time!

Number 3:
Nerf shocking aura

This one is specifically aimed at WvW, where running -33% air cooldowns with lightning rod turns shocking aura into a monster. Especially since it goes on cooldown when used, not when it ends, which means shocking aura uptime when traited is nearly 25%. Same reasoning as with ring of fire, it’s not a lot of fun to have so much of your damage rely on your opponent making a mistake (in this case hitting you with shocking aura up)
--———————————
No again, We need Buffs in WvW not nerfs, you can play Staff backline or DD Ele.
And a mixxed armor DD is NOT OP. You have to skill against all classis and NEED that stupid -36 (-40 % ) anti condis food. You cant hide like a mesmer or thiev or ranger… or engi ..
Ele Roaming is nearly dead because all the mesmers and condi players..you have to play 2-3 times better to kill condi players..
And than you skilled anti condi and get killed by a Zerk Warrior… sad story

Number 4:
Revert attunement cd reduction.
————————————————-
No, again :/ Remove that **** attunement cooldown complety and bring ICD ( 5-8 sec ) to Elemental attuement and NERF diamond skin and stone heart.
This two are the real pain for Ele. Diamond skin should REDUCE the duration, but not ignores conditions. And Stone heart should reduce the damage from critical hits and NOT ignore them.
I would say buff the Class mechanic by REMOVING the chilled punishement.

TY

I have a story for you.

Once upon a time.
The mesmer’s got buffed.
People figured out what needed to be nerfed and what could be done to make the build less of an issue.

Most mesmer’s agreed that the issue came from two trait’s and suggestions were made to make those traits less of an imbalance.

The devs.
Gathering feedback from the community.
IGNORED THEM.

They nerfed a trait that worked only for one build.
They nerfed an entire utility set that did nothing for the “OP” build people cried about.
They nerfed a weapon that made the dps a tad bit lower.
They nerfed trait’s that did nothing but help mesmer support.

They ignored the trait suggestions that would have brought one very powerful build inline and instead gutted another.
The devs don’t listen.
You will be nerfed in area’s that make no sense.
You will have buffs taken away from you for no reason.
And you will have a random build no on really uses destroyed.
That’s how Anet balances

/saltysaltsalt

Solori.6025:

I have a story for you.

Once upon a time.
The mesmer’s got buffed.
People figured out what needed to be nerfed and what could be done to make the build less of an issue.

Most mesmer’s agreed that the issue came from two trait’s and suggestions were made to make those traits less of an imbalance.

The devs.
Gathering feedback from the community.
IGNORED THEM.

They nerfed a trait that worked only for one build.
They nerfed an entire utility set that did nothing for the “OP” build people cried about.
They nerfed a weapon that made the dps a tad bit lower.
They nerfed trait’s that did nothing but help mesmer support.

They ignored the trait suggestions that would have brought one very powerful build inline and instead gutted another.
The devs don’t listen.
You will be nerfed in area’s that make no sense.
You will have buffs taken away from you for no reason.
And you will have a random build no on really uses destroyed.
That’s how Anet balances

/saltysaltsalt

You think we don’t know this story?

Once upon a time DD cleric eles ruled WvW and PvP with an iron fist.
Wise eles agreed they needed their active defense toned back
In practically universal agreement, the ele community cried out that Cantrips were the root of the problem.

Anet heard this, then…

Nerfed all weapon healing
Nerfed what was then our least used healing skill
Nerfed the rest of our healing skills
Took away Evasive Arcanas blast finisher
Gave back the blast finisher (sort of)
And finally, made Ride the Lightning in to some sort of nonsensical skill where you lose CD if you don’t hit with it (or if you do and they dodge) a mechanic which makes no sense to new players or veterans alike and is seen nowhere else in the game.

And then a week later they nerfed cantrips.

And then they nerfed them three more times.

And gave nothing back to DD but one measly blast finisher.

Moral of the story, DD is NOT overpowered by any stretch of the imagination. And I’m honestly probably missing a dozen or more stupid changes they made to the old cleric DD while avoiding the actual issue.

Burning is just out of freaking control the whole game over and we have the second greatest access to it after Guardians. And our build diversity problems are a completely different issue that addressing DD power probably won’t even effect.

Wolfric.9380:

While this is all correct how does it help other classes getting outperformed by d/d eles ?
I played water/cantrips and the sustain is gigantic for a low healt class. Never felt conditions as a threat, disengaged with flash to come back seconds later healed …
the cantrip domination washes away all build diversity. water + cantrips is nailed if you want stable competative play, and D/D fire/water/arcane just outperforms annything when played well. Of course you can say skill should be rewarded but soemwhere the fun (especially for others) ends. It also allows for nerly no counterplay/build and that makes it even worse.

Anything “played well” can out perform the norm. What’s that DD ele going to do when there is a guardian that is “played well” holding the point? Not take the point, I can promise you that. What is that DD ele going to do a evade ranger in WvW that is “played well”?

@conncept nailed it. I just can’t see how anyone that ever played D/D Ele for more than a year would call for a sustain nerf. They did that anyone that wanted to play ele had to run S/D gimmick burst build.

I don’t think there will be any major nerfs tbh. I think they will want to see how it performs in stronghold and if that game mode becomes popular. In stronghold what is “OP” has probably changed from traditional meta because thieves can do stuff like run supply while stealth which matters for actually winning the game and not 1v1’s.

I just don’t see a reason to nerf D/D, but I agree burning is to strong. How else are we doing damage besides lightning whip? So nerfing burning will nerf us and every other class that has any aspect of burning across the board.

I read the OP’s suggestions don’t agree with any of it.

Just to add to conncept’s story, eles are using the same build since release and depending on the state of the other classes the DD cantrip ele as been everywhere from trash tier to OP. Eles never really got a direct buff, but somehow the general changes helped them more than other classes:

• introduction of might% runes
• buff to celestial amulett
• the ability to equip 3 full traitlines + GMs
• the trait merges that came along the same rework
• buffs to burning/condition in general

I agree with the consensus here, that burning needs to be nerfed. The worst offender seems to be Ring of Fire that does not only apply 3 stacks of buring but is also buggy and applies them multiple times. I think the easiest fix would be to normalize Ring of Fire to a normal fire field pulsing burning: 2s of burning / second. If someone is stupid enough to stand in RoF, they get 2 stacks of burning while it is active. It’s punishing, but not absurd. As a buff to focus, the tiny fire line should get Ring of Fires behaviour: 3 stacks of burning for crossing it.

1.) Balance burning

Might is not the major issue causing the meta d/d builds to deal “too much damage”, if burns are nerfed as much as the general public would probably like, that might would be required for the cele d/d meta build to even lay down enough physical damage to be considered viable. Burns are over the top as we all know and its due to their balance around the condition stat and stacking potential being kind of funky. If I had to make an educated guess after spending thousands upon thousands of hours playing d/d, I’d say burning is roughly 35-75% of the d/d eles damage.(It really depends on who you’re fighting and the dmg usually leans closer to the 75%) If you butcher might stacking potential by making it impossible to reach near max stacks and nerf burning the d/d cele ele could drop off the face of the earth. Start by balancing burn stack potential or rework the formula on burns to globally reduce the damage dealt.

2.) Reduce regen values on soothing disruption and up the vigor duration.

I suggest this so the meta build will lose some of its tanky feeling while also allowing more glassy builds to potentially drop renewing stamina and pick up arcane precision while still maintaining a good amount of vigor.

I think this would be a good start… if new builds were not on their way out. Is it even worth Anets time to balance current builds when HoT is on its way?

If burning dmg is reduced all around most of my (and others) sugestions arent needed.
But maybe A-net wants to have it as the most powerfull cond for a reason.

PS: I added the increasing dmg thing in a second post because as someone said little changes can have a hughe impact in a battle, for example: just play without “Burning Fire” and the stacks of might can totally be felt because in team battles you cant make perfect rotations all the time.

Conncept.7638:

Solori.6025:

I have a story for you.

Once upon a time.
The mesmer’s got buffed.
People figured out what needed to be nerfed and what could be done to make the build less of an issue.

Most mesmer’s agreed that the issue came from two trait’s and suggestions were made to make those traits less of an imbalance.

The devs.
Gathering feedback from the community.
IGNORED THEM.

They nerfed a trait that worked only for one build.
They nerfed an entire utility set that did nothing for the “OP” build people cried about.
They nerfed a weapon that made the dps a tad bit lower.
They nerfed trait’s that did nothing but help mesmer support.

They ignored the trait suggestions that would have brought one very powerful build inline and instead gutted another.
The devs don’t listen.
You will be nerfed in area’s that make no sense.
You will have buffs taken away from you for no reason.
And you will have a random build no on really uses destroyed.
That’s how Anet balances

/saltysaltsalt

You think we don’t know this story?

Once upon a time DD cleric eles ruled WvW and PvP with an iron fist.
Wise eles agreed they needed their active defense toned back
In practically universal agreement, the ele community cried out that Cantrips were the root of the problem.

Anet heard this, then…

Nerfed all weapon healing
Nerfed what was then our least used healing skill
Nerfed the rest of our healing skills
Took away Evasive Arcanas blast finisher
Gave back the blast finisher (sort of)
And finally, made Ride the Lightning in to some sort of nonsensical skill where you lose CD if you don’t hit with it (or if you do and they dodge) a mechanic which makes no sense to new players or veterans alike and is seen nowhere else in the game.

And then a week later they nerfed cantrips.

And then they nerfed them three more times.

And gave nothing back to DD but one measly blast finisher.

Moral of the story, DD is NOT overpowered by any stretch of the imagination. And I’m honestly probably missing a dozen or more stupid changes they made to the old cleric DD while avoiding the actual issue.

Burning is just out of freaking control the whole game over and we have the second greatest access to it after Guardians. And our build diversity problems are a completely different issue that addressing DD power probably won’t even effect.

+1. Please post this on the devs forum, people are crying like hell.

Just a side role note on the elementalist. We are suppose to control elements. Thus, earth has to quake, light has to strike, water has to heal and fire has to BURN.

Finally people asking for a nerf on Ele. I agree, and Mesmer too (no class should have more burst then Thief or solo Fractal 50)

Burning needs to be either unstackable or damage reduced by 50%.

Burning ashes needs to be removed.

Reduce the regeneration on soothing and no more vigor is needed.

Start there and nerf more until balanced if warranted

T raw.4658:

Burning needs to be either unstackable or damage reduced by 50%.

Burning ashes needs to be removed.

Reduce the regeneration on soothing and no more vigor is needed.

Start there and nerf more until balanced if warranted

Thief players..

What T raw writes already overshoots 100% .

T raw.4658:

Burning needs to be either unstackable or damage reduced by 50%.

Burning ashes needs to be removed.

Reduce the regeneration on soothing and no more vigor is needed.

Start there and nerf more until balanced if warranted

You obviously don’t even understand how the class works when you’re calling it burning ashes. You lost all credibility.

Kidel.2057:

Finally people asking for a nerf on Ele. I agree, and Mesmer too (no class should have more burst then Thief or solo Fractal 50)

Says who? Thieves? There is no holy trinity … thieves don’t just get to be the DPS or burst class.

OMG. Such a fun to read this thread.

Really wonders which class does this nerfie guys are playing?

May be a necro? Stand on cap point and just push buttons even not need to move around? Load kitten loads of condis, even transfom opoonents boons to condis. Be immortal with 3 healt pool… Should be balanced.

Or a mesmer? Come from stealth and use moa then pew pew. Oh yeah, sorry I forgat mighty interrupts. It is really so hard to use them in right moment. Or wait, you hav couple of them, so do no care, just spam them.

Or a ranger? Hell yeah, lots of condtion stacks in a second. (R.I.P to power rangers, now people find easier way to play as ranger)

Oh may be a thief? Backstab, backstab. Pff, hide and repeat.

Or a warrior? Insane heal without any heal stat, craxzy DPS, couple of stuns and perfectly balanced rampage elite…

May be guardian? Block, block, ret…. Wait during this time doing craxzy dps, burning, immoblize etc… Hmm, should be balanced also.

Guys, each class has a chance to be described as OP in good hands. But D/D ele needs to be played by really good hands to be described as OP.

Burning is an issue for evey one, It really needs to be nerfed.

Drake’s Breath: Burning on the last Hit. Just 3 Stacks Burning. (Right now to much direct DMG and! Condidmg with Mightstacks.. so Burning is the bigger Problem)

Diamond Skin: As mentioned… should not give Immunity.

Aeromancer’s Training is to strong combined with Shocking Aura and Lightning Rod. Higher Basecooldown for Shocking Aura? No other Idea..

Cone of Cold 16-20 Seconds Cooldown.

Burning Fire and everything else is fine for me..

Oh and not forget to buff Scepter Aa;).

And dont forget that it is a Fellow Elementalist which started the Topic. So Kudos for this.

But its the same with Mesmers. Almost no one want to get a Nerf on his Mainclass… never ending Story.

ronpierce.2760:

posthumecaver.6473:

I am only against Nr.1, what you describe is l2p issue.

If you want to be good player, you have to learn what other class does. You can not expect to run around get over every AOE and rofl stomp things.

If there is a bad kitten fire ring on the ground don’t cross it.

For the auto cleansing fire it should only cleans one condition like Guardian Smite on heal and it should not give 3 stacks of might on cantrip use. Every DD Ele with fire line is running with 25 stacks of might without even thinking about it.

Ring of Fire does need nerfed. As much as you could say it’s a L2P for other players, nerfing RoF would require Elementalists to have to “l2p” just as well. I don’t think people really think about how strong RoF really is. With a Celestial build and just a few stacks of might, you’re looking at 4-4.5k damage (some of which is up-front) with 3 stacks of burning over 5 seconds. Now, consider with a standard FWA build, you can have this ring up close-to 50% of the time, and can out-range most melee fighters (130 versus 300 typically). People just don’t have the infinite dodges Elementalists think people have, or cleanses that can forget to remove burning and removes something stupid instead. 50% of the time this haphazard damage ring is up. It’s a crutch for Elementalists in Conquest more than it is a L2P issue for other players. No one should have that kind of fire-and-forget haphazard damage to their advantage. And I’m not even talking about walking back and forth, 1 application can do up to 4.5k damage…

If you damage started to hurt (which is silly anyways… You’re celestial for god’s sake and still able to literally melt people), I’d much rather it go somewhere a bit more involved.

Funny RoF is only a tool for me to blast and get might, while I can’t for enemy to cross it.

I might skillfully place it so it get an initial 3 stacks of burning from it, all the rest it can do it is totally related to the incompetence of my enemy.

posthumecaver.6473:

ronpierce.2760:

posthumecaver.6473:

I am only against Nr.1, what you describe is l2p issue.

If you want to be good player, you have to learn what other class does. You can not expect to run around get over every AOE and rofl stomp things.

If there is a bad kitten fire ring on the ground don’t cross it.

For the auto cleansing fire it should only cleans one condition like Guardian Smite on heal and it should not give 3 stacks of might on cantrip use. Every DD Ele with fire line is running with 25 stacks of might without even thinking about it.

Ring of Fire does need nerfed. As much as you could say it’s a L2P for other players, nerfing RoF would require Elementalists to have to “l2p” just as well. I don’t think people really think about how strong RoF really is. With a Celestial build and just a few stacks of might, you’re looking at 4-4.5k damage (some of which is up-front) with 3 stacks of burning over 5 seconds. Now, consider with a standard FWA build, you can have this ring up close-to 50% of the time, and can out-range most melee fighters (130 versus 300 typically). People just don’t have the infinite dodges Elementalists think people have, or cleanses that can forget to remove burning and removes something stupid instead. 50% of the time this haphazard damage ring is up. It’s a crutch for Elementalists in Conquest more than it is a L2P issue for other players. No one should have that kind of fire-and-forget haphazard damage to their advantage. And I’m not even talking about walking back and forth, 1 application can do up to 4.5k damage…

If you damage started to hurt (which is silly anyways… You’re celestial for god’s sake and still able to literally melt people), I’d much rather it go somewhere a bit more involved.

Funny RoF is only a tool for me to blast and get might, while I can’t for enemy to cross it.

I might skillfully place it so it get an initial 3 stacks of burning from it, all the rest it can do it is totally related to the incompetence of my enemy.

It’s burning stacks that have to be nerfed and hitboxes fixed

Right now, if an ele places a Ring of fire on a point, you are going to be dead real quick if you try to fight on point because of how close you will be fighting with the ele and the ring… plus its a pretty low cooldown so that ring is going to be on point constantly which means constantly getting dunked on by burning stacks..

It’s a necessary skill for ele I agree, but the burning stacks and the messed up hitbox on RoF needs to be addressed….

just gonna chime in, don’t flame me!
i think burning ashes in current state need to go, too passive, too easy to trigger, too strong on a class that already has good survivability, prevents counterplay to fire attunement

as said in other trhread: maybe increase burning stack requirements to trigger it

again for all the people with random crap ideas and no idea how to balance, here a real balance suggestion…

Jekkt.6045:

drake’s breath:
burning duration of each tick reduced by 1 second

ring of fire:
make this skill more consistent, sometimes it bugs out and applies 6-9 burn stacks instantly. the skill by itself is fine as you won’t take a single stack of burning if you just fight inside the ring or dodge through it.

cleansing fire:
burning stacks reduced from 3 stacks for 4 seconds to 1 stack for 8 seconds.
instant burns that deal 3k+ damage are bad for the game, especially if they’re offered as passive traits.

burning fire (trait):
either reducing the might stacks from 3 to 2 or reducing the might duration by 50%.

blinding ashes (trait):
this skill now needs 3 stacks of burning to trigger, internal cooldown removed.

these changes should help fixing d/d ele. having said this, d/d ele is not the only broken thing in the game right now, so are all instant burns that deal “burst damage” and PU.

oh and buff ele scepter

Jekkt.6045:

again for all the people with random crap ideas and no idea how to balance, here a real balance suggestion…

Jekkt.6045:

drake’s breath:
burning duration of each tick reduced by 1 second

ring of fire:
make this skill more consistent, sometimes it bugs out and applies 6-9 burn stacks instantly. the skill by itself is fine as you won’t take a single stack of burning if you just fight inside the ring or dodge through it.

cleansing fire:
burning stacks reduced from 3 stacks for 4 seconds to 1 stack for 8 seconds.
instant burns that deal 3k+ damage are bad for the game, especially if they’re offered as passive traits.

burning fire (trait):
either reducing the might stacks from 3 to 2 or reducing the might duration by 50%.

blinding ashes (trait):
this skill now needs 3 stacks of burning to trigger, internal cooldown removed.

these changes should help fixing d/d ele. having said this, d/d ele is not the only broken thing in the game right now, so are all instant burns that deal “burst damage” and PU.

oh and buff ele scepter

Crap ideas and no idea how to balance, yet, doesn’t realize that this could increase rate of blind AND makes it AOE.

Fire doesn’t need blind,
Simple as that. Ele has two and a half incredibly defensive trees, there’s no sense in having a defensive utility like this in their DPS line. A better idea, if they really want to keep it, is Increase the CD to 10-15 seconds but make it per target and add a more offensive pirmary perk to the trait instead.

ronpierce.2760:

Jekkt.6045:

again for all the people with random crap ideas and no idea how to balance, here a real balance suggestion…

Jekkt.6045:

drake’s breath:
burning duration of each tick reduced by 1 second

ring of fire:
make this skill more consistent, sometimes it bugs out and applies 6-9 burn stacks instantly. the skill by itself is fine as you won’t take a single stack of burning if you just fight inside the ring or dodge through it.

cleansing fire:
burning stacks reduced from 3 stacks for 4 seconds to 1 stack for 8 seconds.
instant burns that deal 3k+ damage are bad for the game, especially if they’re offered as passive traits.

burning fire (trait):
either reducing the might stacks from 3 to 2 or reducing the might duration by 50%.

blinding ashes (trait):
this skill now needs 3 stacks of burning to trigger, internal cooldown removed.

these changes should help fixing d/d ele. having said this, d/d ele is not the only broken thing in the game right now, so are all instant burns that deal “burst damage” and PU.

oh and buff ele scepter

Crap ideas and no idea how to balance, yet, doesn’t realize that this could increase rate of blind AND makes it AOE.

Fire doesn’t need blind,
Simple as that. Ele has two and a half incredibly defensive trees, there’s no sense in having a defensive utility like this in their DPS line. A better idea, if they really want to keep it, is Increase the CD to 10-15 seconds but make it per target and add a more offensive pirmary perk to the trait instead.

if there are 5 people running through your ring of fire then they deserve a blind…

the only way blinding ashes would proc this way is if you eat a full drake’s breath, by running through ring of fire or by getting auto attacked with scepter 3x which takes 3×1.25s. aoe and no cooldown is a fair compensation, and aoe doesn’t mean that when you trigger it on somebody everybody else will get it too but each target needs to get 3 burns to be blinded. it would even allow for counters if you cleanse burning at 2 stacks or simply dodge the 3rd burning application. counterplay, isn’t that what everybody wishes for..

oh and if you remove this trait people will just pick a) longer ring of fire or b) more might for everybody, both options that would not make anything better.