Guild Wars 2

The worse thing with staff is that you cannot benefit from FA too much with it, since its damaging element is fire. This means that if you want to use the poor support that staff provides you will have to put points into arcana, and these points reduce your damage potential. Staff’s air should be completely rebuilt.

I have run the numbers and TCed staff builds many times, there is nothing to do with it. It’s either support of dps, not both, while daggers can do both with ease.

Zelyhn.8069:

The worse thing with staff is that you cannot benefit from FA too much with it, since its damaging element is fire. This means that if you want to use the poor support that staff provides you will have to put points into arcana, and these points reduce your damage potential.

In a 10 second attunement swap chain you can cast Ice Spike, Blinding Surge and Eruption once each. All of them deal twice the damage of Fireball to a larger area. Granted, you miss out on a Lava Font. However, that’s compensated by the large amount of might and fury you get from constantly swapping attunements, as well as the vulnerability your teammates can also benefit from.

If you play support staff well, you may deal a little bit less damage than a full fire focused ele. But it’ll come pretty close.

Zelyhn.8069:

I have run the numbers and TCed staff builds many times, there is nothing to do with it.

I’ll call you on that. Show me your numbers.

Give me a rotation and I’ll get my machine working, probably only tomorrow though

I thought you had the numbers ready but very well…

Lava Font, Flame Burst, Ice Spike, Blinding Surge (with Electric Discharge), Stoning (or Shockwave if it’s available) until 1 second before Fire is done, Eruption, Lava Font for might combo.

Add in Magnetic Aura when it’s available (with Zephyr’s Boon for fury), Arcane Fury, Sigil of Battle and Elemental Attunement.

You can compare it to any fire build you’d like, but with the same gear. I’m curious to learn where the build stands dpswise compared to a raw damage fire build. Mind you, I’d like to see the calculations too please.

How many points do you have in arcana?

30. Also, I forgot to mention I use Rune of Altruism and Glyph of Elemental Harmony too. That’s another 6 stacks might (and 3 on my party).

so 30/10/0/0/30 I suppose ?

Ot not, since you have lightning discharge …

ThiBash.5634:

If that’s supposed to be an insult then rest assured: I’m offended. Offended that you couldn’t come up with anything better than that comment.

This thread is not about viability about about being decent option. Staff is viable, either is running naked. Have you seen a decent group in pve that is using staff ele for its support or cc?

So if I am not mistaken you rotation is as follows:
Fire: lava font
Water: Ice spike
Air: proc electric discharge, lightning surge
Earth: stoning four times, eruption
Fire: lava font, flame burst, three fireballs, lava font, three fireballs, flame burst
repeat

That would require you to have pyromancer’s alacrity of course.

The end c/s is 1.14
As a comparison, lightning whip alone has 1.22 c/s

Now plug this number in my calculator with your build and you will see how little damage that deals.

This is because, like I told you, you need arcana to use your spells out of fire, and arcana reduces your damage because its traits are very bad.

Fasyx.9347:

What I´ve learned in the past: stop comparing any class with the warrior. Warriors are the kings in this game.

PvP aside. If any class is to be compared it should actually BE the warrior. Its the only class anet has openly declared quite often to be were they want it terms of balance. So the rest of us are pretty much orbiting around warriors waiting to be fixed and put beside warriors.

Zelyhn.8069:

So if I am not mistaken you rotation is as follows:
Fire: lava font
Water: Ice spike
Air: proc electric discharge, lightning surge
Earth: stoning four times, eruption
Fire: lava font, flame burst, three fireballs, lava font, three fireballs, flame burst
repeat

That would require you to have pyromancer’s alacrity of course.

The end c/s is 1.14
As a comparison, lightning whip alone has 1.22 c/s

Now plug this number in my calculator with your build and you will see how little damage that deals.

This is because, like I told you, you need arcana to use your spells out of fire, and arcana reduces your damage because its traits are very bad.

Where do you factor in the extra might? Where do you factor in that Arcana gives the ele +100 Power from Sigil of Battle alone? How do you factor in the perma fury?

Where’s the actual calculation itself?

haviz.1340:

This thread is not about viability about about being decent option. Staff is viable, either is running naked. Have you seen a decent group in pve that is using staff ele for its support or cc?

No decent group, because ele isn’t just about support. It’s the combination of damage and support that makes them work. There are plenty of ‘zerker warriors’ that only stay in the fight because of the protection and heals I toss ’em. While still doing damage and buffing them with fury/might as well.

As a counter question, when was the last time you invited a guardian and didn’t automatically assume he was a support character? How often do you ask wheter guardians focus on support or dps? Or do you just assume that all guardians do both perfectly?

ThiBash.5634:

As a counter question, when was the last time you invited a guardian and didn’t automatically assume he was a support character? How often do you ask wheter guardians focus on support or dps? Or do you just assume that all guardians do both perfectly?

I’m guilty of this crime quite often XD. Course i’m just as guilty when it comes to warriors and assuming there nothing more then a zerker.

Chaotic Storm.2815:

I’m guilty of this crime quite often XD. Course i’m just as guilty when it comes to warriors and assuming there nothing more then a zerker.

The only thing I really assume when I run a dungeon is that people know what they’re doing when it comes to gear and build. I pretty much never ask what kind of build they run. Of course, that has its downsides too.

Haha guys I don’t think Haviz automatically assumes any Guardian is support, or at least not any the guardians he plays with!!

ThiBash, I have only done the c/s calculation. This is a preliminary step towards full dps calculations. I can only do a full dps calc if you give me your exact build. But I don’t even need to do this to tell you that with this rotation and your 30 points in arcana you are doing very little damage (to my standards).

ThiBash.5634:

Chaotic Storm.2815:

I’m guilty of this crime quite often XD. Course i’m just as guilty when it comes to warriors and assuming there nothing more then a zerker.

The only thing I really assume when I run a dungeon is that people know what they’re doing when it comes to gear and build. I pretty much never ask what kind of build they run. Of course, that has its downsides too.

have to agree there, I could care less what builds they are. I’v learned tho to never assume everyone knows the fight. At least your way of doing it.

Zelyhn.8069:

Haha guys I don’t think Haviz automatically assumes any Guardian is support, or at least not any the guardians he plays with!!

Good to know. :-)

But I don’t even need to do this to tell you that with this rotation and your 30 points in arcana you are doing very little damage (to my standards).

I’m sorry, but given that you don’t even see how Arcana adds a lot of Power and Precision through its boon extension, and changed my rotation on the fly, I don’t think I trust your calculations. I’m sure you can calculate the damage coëfficient, but that’s only a third of the actual dps a build can provide.

I do see how arcana extends the duration of buffs, thanks …
What I am telling you is that I can only do a full calculation if you give me your full build.

ThiBash.5634:

No decent group, because ele isn’t just about support. It’s the combination of damage and support that makes them work. There are plenty of ‘zerker warriors’ that only stay in the fight because of the protection and heals I toss ’em. While still doing damage and buffing them with fury/might as well.

As a counter question, when was the last time you invited a guardian and didn’t automatically assume he was a support character? How often do you ask wheter guardians focus on support or dps? Or do you just assume that all guardians do both perfectly?

If you’re playing with staff, your fury/might support is worse than other builds or even warrior itself while dealing much less damage. If those ‘zerker warriors’ need your heals I suggest you start playing with better players. What is your build anyway, 30/10/0/0/30 or 0/10/0/30/30? Do you support your team with fury through aura share or persisting flames?

As a counter answer, if I get ‘support guardian’ by a chance I pug, I will most likely kick him for wasting my time.

He said he has electric discharge, so his build has neither of persisting flames or aura share :p

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fEAQFAWhImgboR1gjDA0DmIZ8QFlHzkjNA-jUCBYgAkIAZPFRjtIcaslhBRNDWVTISZDT5CFA-w

Note that I bring Zephyr’s Boon so I can get perma fury myself. The fact that I can buff others through Frozen Ground+blast finisher is a nice bonus. The same goes for the might from Altruism.

That’s one hell of a snowflake.

haviz.1340:

That’s one hell of a snowflake.

It’s not an attempt at trying to be unique, and the trait/skill choices aren’t there for the fun of it. Everything in the build has a reason and a purpose. Zephyr’s Boon for example, does 3 things: it allows the combination of Magnetic Aura en Arcane Fury to give myself permafury, it increases the effectiveness of my ice field blast finishers (which I get a lot of when I summon Ice Elementals) and it provides me with enough swiftness that I can save Windborne Speed for condition removal rather than needing it for perma swiftness. It may seem out of place but it actually works quite well.

I’d really like to see how that works in practice.

I’m gonna reply to that with a quote from a wise man that once posted it on the forums in a related topic:

haviz.1340:

An ultimate forum warrior challenge. You can check it yourself, just don’t die because of awesomeness you will feel while running it.

Except that I’m not sarcastic here.

To put it differently, I’d like to see how having your only blast finishers in earth attunement works with elemental that randomly casts ice field. Relying on ai is not my cup of tea.

haviz.1340:

Except that I’m not sarcastic here.

It was a joke, sorry. Was trying to lighten the mood a bit. All the going at eachothers’ throats isn’t fun all the time.

haviz.1340:

To put it differently, I’d like to see how having your only blast finishers in earth attunement works with elemental that randomly casts ice field. Relying on ai is not my cup of tea.

I can understand that. To be honest, I’m not constantly sniping for fury blast finishers. Rather, I go at it from the opposite perspective: while going through my attunements, when I get to earth, I’ll just look for the next possible field to combo with (of course trying to pick a good one). By using the ice elementals I have extra opertunities to dodge roll into ice fields if they’re available, but I’m not gonna stress out over getting them (although the elementals cast them quite often). You can get used to it after a while and recognize them though, their ice fields are telegraphed in advance and last for a few seconds.

I’m surprised that after a page long of posts, no one mentioned the key difference between Warrior’s DPS and Ele’s DPS in pvp:
How hard it is to land your skill in pvp, and what’s the up time for dps. In pve you usually don’t have to worry if your skills hit; the monsters are not player.

Let’s assume we accept the notion that Ele’s damage is 15-20% higher than the warrior’s during a 10s period. Now the total damage will be:
Warrior’s damage = 1.0 * normalized_dps * (1 – dps_downtime) * hit_rate
Ele’s damage = 1.2 * normalized_dps * (1 – dps_downtime) * hit_rate

In pve, we can assume that both the players play perfectly, so the hit_rate for both classes is 100%. It’s also widely accepted that the ele with half HP will need to interrupt their skill more often. Which class wins? It depends on your judgement of how much more often the Ele has to interrupt their skill and affects their dps_downtime.

Now in pvp, we can’t assume that the hit_rate is 100% anymore. Warrior has such an easier time to hit with their skills. Ele’s skills have longer cast time and are more predictable given both their known rotations and highly telegraphed visuals. On top of that, the 5 targets limit also reduces the hit_rate for Ele. Consider 2 Ele fighting a spirit ranger and a minion necromancer, the Ele can barely hit the real champion at all, since most of the random hits will hit the minions instead.

On top of that, the dps_downtime for Ele is also much higher. Ele usually needs to switch to water and heal, or casts their heal skill, both of which take out the dps time. The reason why the bunker ele build with Signet of Restoration was so popular is because it optimizes for a low dps_downtime variable, and it offers the Ele more dps time with decent healing. Healing with a bunker D/D just mean swap to water and dodge, and occasionally press Water 5. You have much more time to dps (that’s why together with might stacks, they still have an okay dps).

Nevertheless, Ele (especially the non D/D bunker Ele) also needs to heal more often because of their low HP pool. Ele often needs to heal after they take 8k damage, since that means they only have about 4k HP left. Warrior can keep dps longer. Imagine a warrior fighting an ele, assuming equal skill level, you can tell right away that the Ele will have to heal first, and that is a great opportunity for the warrior to finish off the ele. Warrior also has the passive Healing Signet, which has zero negative effect on dps_downtime.

Even the 20% more damage coefficient can’t help the poor ele, since the Warrior has much more armor, and it reduces the damage they deal to each other to roughly equal.

TL;DR: Conclusion: in pve, Ele is in a decent spot with the presume highest damage if played optimally, or a subpar damage if need to pay more attention to stay survive.
In pvp Ele is in a very kittenty spot since the presume damage coefficient is nullified by the other higher armor class, a kittenty hit_rate, a high dps_downtime, and a lot of wasted time for animation/healing.

@sunshine
The term DPS is always going to be talking about pve because you can’t measure that quantity in pvp, pvp is not a controlled environment because there are too many variables.

Solo.9027:

@sunshine
The term DPS is always going to be talking about pve because you can’t measure that quantity in pvp, pvp is not a controlled environment because there are too many variables.

Agree.

Let’s not argue over semantics, so I’ll rephrase the claim to:
Ele has less time to deal damage. Together with a low hit rate, that leads to much lower damage output than the theoretic max in pvp. In short, Ele’s real damage output is really bad in pvp except in ideal situations (fighting with noobs who never dodge, stay in dragon tooth the whole time, never stun, never fear…)

That’s why Ele is the bottom tier for tournaments. It’s almost impossible to have the above ideal situation in competitive games.

Do you agree with that claim?

Sunshine.5014:

Ele has less time to deal damage. Together with a low hit rate, that leads to much lower damage output than the theoretic max in pvp. In short, Ele’s real damage output is really bad in pvp except in ideal situations (fighting with noobs who never dodge, stay in dragon tooth the whole time, never stun, never fear…)

That’s why Ele is the bottom tier for tournaments. It’s almost impossible to have the above ideal situation in competitive games.

Do you agree with that claim?

100% agree, I was just pointing out that threads like these are talking about pve exclusively and DPS is like a key word for pve. The pvp threads are the ones with all the QQ because of those reasons you stated and more, pve threads generally try to maintain a kind of optimism.

Well this thread is not just about PvE. It is only just easier to see the implications of what we find here in PvE. But in PvP we use the same skills, so if we find here that our skills are less potent then there is a conclusion to be drawn for PvP. Even more so since in PvE elems can be squishy but not in PvP.

Zelyhn.8069:

The worse thing with staff is that you cannot benefit from FA too much with it, since its damaging element is fire. This means that if you want to use the poor support that staff provides you will have to put points into arcana, and these points reduce your damage potential. Staff’s air should be completely rebuilt.

I have run the numbers and TCed staff builds many times, there is nothing to do with it. It’s either support of dps, not both, while daggers can do both with ease.

Wait, how are you DPSing with daggers? Those are terribad for actually killing anything.

I think I have made it pretty clear how to dps with D/F in the later posts of my guide