Guild Wars 2

When I first saw the overload skills there was something about them that I just didn’t like. I liked the idea of having to choose between continuing your attunement cycle or delaying it for the sake of a powerful skill, but the overloads in their current state don’t really behave this way. They have what I call the signet problem.

The signet problem is simple enough to understand. Signets give you a passive boost when off cooldown, and this boost is lost if you use the signet, so you theoretically have to weigh the cost of losing the passive against the benefit of the active. This becomes a problem when both the passive and active do the same thing (such as signet of restoration having a pure heal for both its passive and active) because one of those effects will always be better than the other, meaning you should always either leave it on passive or activate it on cooldown.

The comparison to overloads is clear. If you use an overload you have to spend 5s plus the channel duration in a certain attunement and then cannot reactivate that attunement within 20s of using it. This forms the drawback part of my signet analogy. Now if we look at what the overload skills do we can see the problem. Fire overload does damage, gives might and burns. Water overload heals and cure condis. Air overload does damage. Earth overload cripples and immobs. These are all things you can do just by cycling through your attunements normally.

Because of this, I don’t believe that the current form of overloading can ever result in good skills. Currently they are far weaker than the alternative so you should essentially never use them. For them to become worthwhile with their current behaviour, however, would require them to become absurdly powerful. Water overload, for example, would need something like 15k total healing to compete with the aoe heals you could’ve done if you didn’t use it.

As a result I think the behaviour of overloads needs to change and the specific effects of each overload should also be changed so that they are no longer redundant. I think the wait times on overloads should be removed. The only requirements for activating them should be waiting for the standard attunement gcd before use and having to stay in the attunement while channelling. I believe that this is enough of a drawback to make their use a matter of player judgement.

The specific effects need to bring something new to each attunement. Here’s some examples I thought up quickly:

Fire: targets lose endurance every time they’re hit. No skill in the game does anything like this.
Water: thick fog causes unremovable blindness to nearby foes or gives evade frames to allies. Water is usually about the cure, this would be prevention instead.
Air: the cloud follows your target at a distance. Every weapon’s air attunement would gain something from this.
Earth: the final strike launches foes. Earth has many ways to stop people from moving, but no way to move them against their will.

Overloads simply need to do things we cannot already do plenty without them. As long as they just do things that we can already do there’s only 2 options how it will play out if overloads are worth casting:

- Ele is balanced without overloads (and tempest) but overpowered with them.
- Ele is underpowered with overloads and balanced with them.

If they did stuff we couldn’t do without them (retaliation, converting conditions into boons, aoe daze, aegis) they would be much more balancable.

Coldtart.4785:

This becomes a problem when both the passive and active do the same thing (such as signet of restoration having a pure heal for both its passive and active) because one of those effects will always be better than the other, meaning you should always either leave it on passive or activate it on cooldown.

It’s situational though. If you’re going to die unless you get a chunk of health on the spot instead of being able to watch it trickle in activating it becomes useful. Also signet of restoration becomes basically twice as powerful if you have Written in Stone because then you get the full benefit of both healing options.

That said, yea, signets are obnoxious. You practically need Written in Stone to really enjoy having them on your bar, because even if you do intend to use them in both modes situationally, it’s too much of a guess whether or not the combined benefit of the next 30 seconds of the passive are better or whatever you gain from the active. Written in Stone is in a fringe spec that doesn’t offer much else that is useful, so signets are doomed to mostly getting used in only one mode.

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Overloads simply need to do things we cannot already do plenty without them. As long as they just do things that we can already do there’s only 2 options how it will play out if overloads are worth casting:

- Ele is balanced without overloads (and tempest) but overpowered with them.
- Ele is underpowered with overloads and balanced with them.

If they did stuff we couldn’t do without them (retaliation, converting conditions into boons, aoe daze, aegis) they would be much more balancable.

The cost for having them is a spec line, and IMO it’s the only well designed spec line that has a profound impact on how you play.

So I would argue the issue isn’t with overload, but with how lackluster all the other Elementalist specs are. None of them are so gameplay defining that they actually clash with Tempest and make you think hard about whether you want to fit them in your spec instead unless overloads are simply not worth it.

I would really like to see Ele-specs be more about how you play the class. Arcane for people who like to rapidly switch between elements, Tempest for people who like to stay in one element and work it to a big fulmination. We have this weird element thing going that completely ignores that for the Elementalist the individual elements are not their play style. You use all the elements. What defines your play style is whether you support at range or get up close and personal. Whether you inflict conditions or direct damage. Whether you like to primarily have a support role or a damage role.

If they changed the spec trees to all be more meaningful than just grazing them for % increases to your damage it wouldn’t be such a cut and dry affair of simply calculating out what is best.

It’s not really situational though. Yeah you MIGHT use the signet heal but only in 0.000000001% of the situations. The heal heals for about 12 auto attacks with the signet passive, which is of course ridiculous.

You’re not wrong, I’m just saying that it’s not entirely without merit to have a signet that when activated produces a big burst of its standard effect. Especially for characters with Written in Stone it’s a huge boost to that signets effectiveness.

Aetrion.8295:

You’re not wrong, I’m just saying that it’s not entirely without merit to have a signet that when activated produces a big burst of its standard effect. Especially for characters with Written in Stone it’s a huge boost to that signets effectiveness.

Personally, the best signets are those that have synergistic passive/actives.

The best ele signet is signet of air: it provides a great effect passively (+25% movespeed), but you can sacrifice that for an instant defense (stunbreak + blind). After using it, you notice that the passive is gone, but it is worth doing sometimes.

A bad signet is signet of water: one condi every 10s would be fine if the active gave a similar defensive purpose, such as instantly curing 2 condis. Then there is real pressure to balance with more condis removed over-time vs. needing a couple RIGHT NOW.

Signet of Restoration SHOULD be the same way, and is when used on a weapon like scepter (in a burst build): you can get more healing over-time by not casting, but often forego that benefit to heal more RIGHT NOW.

Even overloads would make sense if they just dropped the 5s pre-charge and shortened the cast-times drastically, although that would require them to be defensive. Offensive signets are pretty useless across the board, and it makes more sense to forego longer-term defense for more defense right now. Offensively, there are already enough high-damage options.

From my perspective the biggest issue with signets is simply that the trait that makes them become awesome all around is stuck in a fringe spec between two other traits that are way better if you’ve committed to using earth at all.

The signet problem is more of an rpg player problem where you feel you cant use items or big items becuse you may need them some other time. So what ends up happening is that ppl sit on items effect cd etc.. to the point of simply non use by the “end” of a fight or game. Ppl are simply to fear-full of risk to the point of giving up ability and effects.

No action is an action.

Jski.6180:

The signet problem is more of an rpg player problem where you feel you cant use items or big items becuse you may need them some other time. So what ends up happening is that ppl sit on items effect cd etc.. to the point of simply non use by the “end” of a fight or game. Ppl are simply to fear-full of risk to the point of giving up ability and effects.

No action is an action.

I’m not afraid of using an Overload; it’s just that whenever I do, it’s worse off than not doing it.
Some signets have the same issue.

Malchior.5732:

Jski.6180:

The signet problem is more of an rpg player problem where you feel you cant use items or big items becuse you may need them some other time. So what ends up happening is that ppl sit on items effect cd etc.. to the point of simply non use by the “end” of a fight or game. Ppl are simply to fear-full of risk to the point of giving up ability and effects.

No action is an action.

I’m not afraid of using an Overload; it’s just that whenever I do, it’s worse off than not doing it.
Some signets have the same issue.

Better to have the chose then not.

Jski.6180:

Malchior.5732:

Jski.6180:

The signet problem is more of an rpg player problem where you feel you cant use items or big items becuse you may need them some other time. So what ends up happening is that ppl sit on items effect cd etc.. to the point of simply non use by the “end” of a fight or game. Ppl are simply to fear-full of risk to the point of giving up ability and effects.

No action is an action.

I’m not afraid of using an Overload; it’s just that whenever I do, it’s worse off than not doing it.
Some signets have the same issue.

Better to have the chose then not.

I’m guessing you’re saying it’s better to have the option than not, but you know, I actually WANT to use my new class mechanic, just like I want to have a valid reason to use a Signet Active. You’re basically saying it’s okay for Overloads to be useless.

Malchior.5732:

Jski.6180:

Malchior.5732:

Jski.6180:

The signet problem is more of an rpg player problem where you feel you cant use items or big items becuse you may need them some other time. So what ends up happening is that ppl sit on items effect cd etc.. to the point of simply non use by the “end” of a fight or game. Ppl are simply to fear-full of risk to the point of giving up ability and effects.

No action is an action.

I’m not afraid of using an Overload; it’s just that whenever I do, it’s worse off than not doing it.
Some signets have the same issue.

Better to have the chose then not.

I’m guessing you’re saying it’s better to have the option than not, but you know, I actually WANT to use my new class mechanic, just like I want to have a valid reason to use a Signet Active. You’re basically saying it’s okay for Overloads to be useless.

If you have the ability to use the effect you will but you do not have to use it all the time. Often ppl do not use signet active the sec the signets come off of cd. The point is to have the chose to use or not to use and its up to the players skill to make that chose. If signets active where better then other skills then there would be no point in having other skill then just signets at the same time if overloads where stronger for tempest to have then no one would ever be an ele you would simply be a tempest and ele as a class would be dead. THAT is something ppl in GW2 do not seem to grasp tempest is not to replaces the ele class it is to give the player who plays as an ele to go into that to give up some effect (ele will out dmg tempest any day but tempest will out support ele) for another.

Jski.6180:

Malchior.5732:

Jski.6180:

Malchior.5732:

Jski.6180:

The signet problem is more of an rpg player problem where you feel you cant use items or big items becuse you may need them some other time. So what ends up happening is that ppl sit on items effect cd etc.. to the point of simply non use by the “end” of a fight or game. Ppl are simply to fear-full of risk to the point of giving up ability and effects.

No action is an action.

I’m not afraid of using an Overload; it’s just that whenever I do, it’s worse off than not doing it.
Some signets have the same issue.

Better to have the chose then not.

I’m guessing you’re saying it’s better to have the option than not, but you know, I actually WANT to use my new class mechanic, just like I want to have a valid reason to use a Signet Active. You’re basically saying it’s okay for Overloads to be useless.

If you have the ability to use the effect you will but you do not have to use it all the time. Often ppl do not use signet active the sec the signets come off of cd. The point is to have the chose to use or not to use and its up to the players skill to make that chose. If signets active where better then other skills then there would be no point in having other skill then just signets at the same time if overloads where stronger for tempest to have then no one would ever be an ele you would simply be a tempest and ele as a class would be dead. THAT is something ppl in GW2 do not seem to grasp tempest is not to replaces the ele class it is to give the player who plays as an ele to go into that to give up some effect (ele will out dmg tempest any day but tempest will out support ele) for another.

That’s why we need a good passive and an active that doesn’t something different; something that’s worth the sacrifice. Same with Overloads. Right now, Overloads have NO reason to be used at all. What’s the point then? Might as well remove them, because they wont be used.

No one is asking for a stronger Elementalist; everyone wanted a different role or play-style and what we got is a worse Elementalist.
It’s not better, it’s WORSE than the base Elementalist so right now there’s not much reason to use the Tempest. You get the opposite problem you mentioned: Elementalist completely out-classes the Tempest.

From what I can tell from people’s complaints, their biggest problem with Temptest is that they miss out on the defensive boons the Arcane tree provides from attunement swapping on cooldown. I think the devs want the Tempest to reward staying in one attunement longer than just the time it takes to fire off the useful 2-5 abilities, so how do we help Tempest defense while staying in one attunement long enough to overload?

One idea I have is that, instead of putting your current attunement on a 20s cooldown at the end of your overload, put every attunement on a 10s cooldown at the start of an overload, but also, for each one that was off cooldown when you started, activate all abilities that would trigger if you had changed to that attunement. So things like Electric Disharge from the Air Specialization and boons from Arcane would all fire when you start overloading. Now you’re stuck in a single attunement for 10s (less with arcane reductions) to promote not switching rapidly, but you still get the non-skill benefits of switching around.

Not only should you be able to cast spells while overloading, but those spells themselves should be able to take advantage of the fact that the element is overloaded – i.e, some power boost while casting a fire spell, +condition in earth, etc.

Malchior.5732:

Jski.6180:

Malchior.5732:

Jski.6180:

Malchior.5732:

Jski.6180:

The signet problem is more of an rpg player problem where you feel you cant use items or big items becuse you may need them some other time. So what ends up happening is that ppl sit on items effect cd etc.. to the point of simply non use by the “end” of a fight or game. Ppl are simply to fear-full of risk to the point of giving up ability and effects.

No action is an action.

I’m not afraid of using an Overload; it’s just that whenever I do, it’s worse off than not doing it.
Some signets have the same issue.

Better to have the chose then not.

I’m guessing you’re saying it’s better to have the option than not, but you know, I actually WANT to use my new class mechanic, just like I want to have a valid reason to use a Signet Active. You’re basically saying it’s okay for Overloads to be useless.

If you have the ability to use the effect you will but you do not have to use it all the time. Often ppl do not use signet active the sec the signets come off of cd. The point is to have the chose to use or not to use and its up to the players skill to make that chose. If signets active where better then other skills then there would be no point in having other skill then just signets at the same time if overloads where stronger for tempest to have then no one would ever be an ele you would simply be a tempest and ele as a class would be dead. THAT is something ppl in GW2 do not seem to grasp tempest is not to replaces the ele class it is to give the player who plays as an ele to go into that to give up some effect (ele will out dmg tempest any day but tempest will out support ele) for another.

That’s why we need a good passive and an active that doesn’t something different; something that’s worth the sacrifice. Same with Overloads. Right now, Overloads have NO reason to be used at all. What’s the point then? Might as well remove them, because they wont be used.

No one is asking for a stronger Elementalist; everyone wanted a different role or play-style and what we got is a worse Elementalist.
It’s not better, it’s WORSE than the base Elementalist so right now there’s not much reason to use the Tempest. You get the opposite problem you mentioned: Elementalist completely out-classes the Tempest.

They give you an persisting effect when use a big finnish when you get the full cast and they can be made so you cant be soft cc when using them (earth has a soft stab added to it too). Overload and having the abitly to use overload give the ele class 4 more skills that it did not have before.

Jski.6180:

Malchior.5732:

Jski.6180:

Malchior.5732:

Jski.6180:

Malchior.5732:

Jski.6180:

The signet problem is more of an rpg player problem where you feel you cant use items or big items becuse you may need them some other time. So what ends up happening is that ppl sit on items effect cd etc.. to the point of simply non use by the “end” of a fight or game. Ppl are simply to fear-full of risk to the point of giving up ability and effects.

No action is an action.

I’m not afraid of using an Overload; it’s just that whenever I do, it’s worse off than not doing it.
Some signets have the same issue.

Better to have the chose then not.

I’m guessing you’re saying it’s better to have the option than not, but you know, I actually WANT to use my new class mechanic, just like I want to have a valid reason to use a Signet Active. You’re basically saying it’s okay for Overloads to be useless.

If you have the ability to use the effect you will but you do not have to use it all the time. Often ppl do not use signet active the sec the signets come off of cd. The point is to have the chose to use or not to use and its up to the players skill to make that chose. If signets active where better then other skills then there would be no point in having other skill then just signets at the same time if overloads where stronger for tempest to have then no one would ever be an ele you would simply be a tempest and ele as a class would be dead. THAT is something ppl in GW2 do not seem to grasp tempest is not to replaces the ele class it is to give the player who plays as an ele to go into that to give up some effect (ele will out dmg tempest any day but tempest will out support ele) for another.

That’s why we need a good passive and an active that doesn’t something different; something that’s worth the sacrifice. Same with Overloads. Right now, Overloads have NO reason to be used at all. What’s the point then? Might as well remove them, because they wont be used.

No one is asking for a stronger Elementalist; everyone wanted a different role or play-style and what we got is a worse Elementalist.
It’s not better, it’s WORSE than the base Elementalist so right now there’s not much reason to use the Tempest. You get the opposite problem you mentioned: Elementalist completely out-classes the Tempest.

They give you an persisting effect when use a big finnish when you get the full cast and they can be made so you cant be soft cc when using them (earth has a soft stab added to it too). Overload and having the abitly to use overload give the ele class 4 more skills that it did not have before.

Again, doesn’t matter if they’re mostly useless. Go ahead and sit in Earth for 5s just for the Break Bar; it’s almost always an awful idea.

Malchior.5732:

Jski.6180:

Malchior.5732:

Jski.6180:

Malchior.5732:

Jski.6180:

Malchior.5732:

Jski.6180:

The signet problem is more of an rpg player problem where you feel you cant use items or big items becuse you may need them some other time. So what ends up happening is that ppl sit on items effect cd etc.. to the point of simply non use by the “end” of a fight or game. Ppl are simply to fear-full of risk to the point of giving up ability and effects.

No action is an action.

I’m not afraid of using an Overload; it’s just that whenever I do, it’s worse off than not doing it.
Some signets have the same issue.

Better to have the chose then not.

I’m guessing you’re saying it’s better to have the option than not, but you know, I actually WANT to use my new class mechanic, just like I want to have a valid reason to use a Signet Active. You’re basically saying it’s okay for Overloads to be useless.

If you have the ability to use the effect you will but you do not have to use it all the time. Often ppl do not use signet active the sec the signets come off of cd. The point is to have the chose to use or not to use and its up to the players skill to make that chose. If signets active where better then other skills then there would be no point in having other skill then just signets at the same time if overloads where stronger for tempest to have then no one would ever be an ele you would simply be a tempest and ele as a class would be dead. THAT is something ppl in GW2 do not seem to grasp tempest is not to replaces the ele class it is to give the player who plays as an ele to go into that to give up some effect (ele will out dmg tempest any day but tempest will out support ele) for another.

That’s why we need a good passive and an active that doesn’t something different; something that’s worth the sacrifice. Same with Overloads. Right now, Overloads have NO reason to be used at all. What’s the point then? Might as well remove them, because they wont be used.

No one is asking for a stronger Elementalist; everyone wanted a different role or play-style and what we got is a worse Elementalist.
It’s not better, it’s WORSE than the base Elementalist so right now there’s not much reason to use the Tempest. You get the opposite problem you mentioned: Elementalist completely out-classes the Tempest.

They give you an persisting effect when use a big finnish when you get the full cast and they can be made so you cant be soft cc when using them (earth has a soft stab added to it too). Overload and having the abitly to use overload give the ele class 4 more skills that it did not have before.

Again, doesn’t matter if they’re mostly useless. Go ahead and sit in Earth for 5s just for the Break Bar; it’s almost always an awful idea.

They’re not only “almost” useless, they do nothing new. Why even bother making elite specialization if you just give them more of the same?

Also, whoever is responsible for the design of the warhorn as melee weapon didn’t understand the elementalist class: The person that made the reaper understood that any melee class needed movement skills, high dps skills, stability and what the necromancer lacked or needed. That person did it’s job right and it’s much more fun to play; it adds something new to the class. The Chronomancer is even better.

Warhorn is nothing new for the most part (beside boon share): it has no sustain, no cleanse, no invul, no movement skill (no mobility), no evades, has no synergy with other weapons, it’s slow AND it doesn’t even do damage. It’s something you just want to avoid in any competitive mode. The elite doesn’t help in any way. The have to go back to the drawing table and redesign most of it.

Back to overloads: make the initial cooldown 3 seconds, make it so it doesn’t channel, that it doesn’t interrupt when you are using other skills and changing attunements. Then it will be like a shield that pulses a little damage.