Guild Wars 2

I believe the 40 second cooldown is fair, but what we get for that cooldown is in my opinion is subpar.
I frequently find it going on the full 40 second cooldown just because I lagged a little.
So whats the point of having a conditional cooldown on a skill when the skills ability to function correctly is conditional?
My suggestion is to make RTL a ground targetable instant teleport on a 40 second flat cooldown.
Not only will this solve lag issues with the skill it will add support for churning earth without the need to take lightning flash. It will also increase our ability to move around changing terrain in combat.

Dont believe I was making reference to lack of mobility but rather lack of reliability but okay thanks for your uneducated rebuttal.

Make RTL 20 secs if you don’t hit something. 40 secs if you do. Double the damage.

Risk vs Reward

I always kitten and hit RTL right when skill lag or someone stealths. Makes me sad, but I can keep 100% swiftness up, the out of combat utility is pointless for me, it is great in combat mobility.

If I miss, I’m not out 40 seconds of wait time. If I hit, I wanted to hit and ready for the wait.

RTL is a lost cause. That double CD is basically saying “You’re not allowed to use this skill for roaming or escaping. You should die a horrible horrible death after you rubberband and skill lag to your inevitable failure of hitting the opponent with it.”

Omnitek.3876:

Make RTL 20 secs if you don’t hit something. 40 secs if you do. Double the damage.

Risk vs Reward

I always kitten and hit RTL right when skill lag or someone stealths. Makes me sad, but I can keep 100% swiftness up, the out of combat utility is pointless for me, it is great in combat mobility.

If I miss, I’m not out 40 seconds of wait time. If I hit, I wanted to hit and ready for the wait.

even if it was double damage it would still be crap damage.

Another thread about this…
The whole cooldown nerf was a complete fail. The devs lied when they said that it would count blinds/dodges/blocks as hits. I think most of us saw it coming though. Everyone already knew that when your attack gets blocked/dodged while in stealth you stay in stealth.
Fix that stupid bug and you get 2 mechanics fixed at the cost of 1.

RTL for me was just something fun that let me jump around, and great in WvW when 10 players try to pile you. I was quite sad when they nerfed it, I don’t have nearly as much fun jumping around lions arch

I don’t play ele but I think RTL should only go on 40 sec cd if you used it without a target or if your target was further away than the skill range to prevent using random far away animals to lower the CD.
That way you wouldn’t get punished with double CD if you used it as it was meant to be used.

cheshirefox.7026:

Mithfir.1038:

Dont believe I was making reference to lack of mobility but rather lack of reliability but okay thanks for your uneducated rebuttal.

thanks for snidely insulting me over something that wasn’t a rebuttal to anything you said

Orly? lets read:

cheshirefox.7026:

ahahahahah rtl and elementalist mobility is fine
what a complete joke..

Hmm. Gonna have to agree with Mith on this one. Seems like an “uneducated rebuttal” to me too. Either that or a drunken post…

Wryog.5073:

Another thread about this…
The whole cooldown nerf was a complete fail. The devs lied when they said that it would count blinds/dodges/blocks as hits. I think most of us saw it coming though. Everyone already knew that when your attack gets blocked/dodged while in stealth you stay in stealth.
Fix that stupid bug and you get 2 mechanics fixed at the cost of 1.

The problem is, its not a bug. Its working as they’ve intended.

Their intentions are wrong.

They need to change.

These balance discussions are starting to sound more and more dev-biased every time they come about.

Redscope.6215:

Wryog.5073:

Another thread about this…
The whole cooldown nerf was a complete fail. The devs lied when they said that it would count blinds/dodges/blocks as hits. I think most of us saw it coming though. Everyone already knew that when your attack gets blocked/dodged while in stealth you stay in stealth.
Fix that stupid bug and you get 2 mechanics fixed at the cost of 1.

The problem is, its not a bug. Its working as they’ve intended.

Their intentions are wrong.

They need to change.

These balance discussions are starting to sound more and more dev-biased every time they come about.

It is a bug.

When they first announced this ridiculous nerf to RTL on a live stream, they were directly asked if it would be affected by aegis, blocks etc.

Both devs looked blankly at each other, shrugged & lied saying those wouldn`t trigger the double cd.

I’m not sure how everyone else feels but to me RTL symbolizes everything that is wrong with the class. Now don’t get me wrong I don’t think there is a whole heap wrong with the class, but having said that there is so many situational skills ranging from Dragon’s Tooth and it’s absurdly long hang time to Burning Speeds AoE firing off early in heavy lag.

RTL back in the day was overpowered I remember just spamming it without a care because I knew it would be back up pretty soon. At this point I really don’t see anything wrong with our mobility, sure the sustained mobility has taken a dive but our ability to open gaps rapidly is still just as strong. This is why I don’t see it as an issue because I can out maneuver other people, because of this it would in my opinion be nice if it was changed to a teleport. It would allow us to move around terrain far more easily, we would never get immobilized mid RTL and locked out of skills like we currently do and would allow for more synergy with other skills such as earth quake or churning earth. All the while our sustained mobility would be the same.

In my opinion the class needs changes like this, our attunements should have synergy between them rather than feeling like a seperate weapon set.

Mithfir.1038:

RTL back in the day was overpowered .

stop using that word…
Look at other profession skills

Look at elmentalist…and his cloth/low HP short range style

If you say that our mobility is fine you never played elementalist…
You can no longer follow anyone …even a mesmer can disengage a D/D ele without any problem as its now.

Even without looking at warrior or thief or ranger mobility….. a profession locked in short range NEEDS mobility.
Remove it and you have a bad version of the warrior of 6 months ago.

Arpheus.6918:

I don’t play ele but I think RTL should only go on 40 sec cd if you used it without a target or if your target was further away than the skill range to prevent using random far away animals to lower the CD.
That way you wouldn’t get punished with double CD if you used it as it was meant to be used.

You don’t play ele so you don’t get an opinion on it. Those of us who have played it and know how crappy ele is know it isn’t fair in the least bit considering how much survivability and mobility every single other class has WITHOUT drawbacks.

Fact: the changes to Rtl were the start of a long spiraling road that left a bad taste in all our mouths. It is a symbol to the elementalist community of what has been done to us almost like a brand on our bodies. What anet should do is revert it, even if it’s to the first nerf stage where it was a 20 second cd and 15 on hit. Yes it may still rubberband but the range has already been fixed from its former glory so I see no reason to keep a massive cd on it anymore.

LordByron.8369:

Mithfir.1038:

RTL back in the day was overpowered .

stop using that word…
Look at other profession skills

Look at elmentalist…and his cloth/low HP short range style

If you say that our mobility is fine you never played elementalist…
You can no longer follow anyone …even a mesmer can disengage a D/D ele without any problem as its now.

Even without looking at warrior or thief or ranger mobility….. a profession locked in short range NEEDS mobility.
Remove it and you have a bad version of the warrior of 6 months ago.

Sorry to say but just because other classes have it isn’t a justification for us to have it, which also sadly has been stated by the devs.

Mithfir.1038:

LordByron.8369:

Mithfir.1038:

RTL back in the day was overpowered .

stop using that word…
Look at other profession skills

Look at elmentalist…and his cloth/low HP short range style

If you say that our mobility is fine you never played elementalist…
You can no longer follow anyone …even a mesmer can disengage a D/D ele without any problem as its now.

Even without looking at warrior or thief or ranger mobility….. a profession locked in short range NEEDS mobility.
Remove it and you have a bad version of the warrior of 6 months ago.

Sorry to say but just because other classes have it isn’t a justification for us to have it, which also sadly has been stated by the devs.

And the devs were always right.

Gallrvaghn.4921:

Mithfir.1038:

LordByron.8369:

Mithfir.1038:

RTL back in the day was overpowered .

stop using that word…
Look at other profession skills

Look at elmentalist…and his cloth/low HP short range style

If you say that our mobility is fine you never played elementalist…
You can no longer follow anyone …even a mesmer can disengage a D/D ele without any problem as its now.

Even without looking at warrior or thief or ranger mobility….. a profession locked in short range NEEDS mobility.
Remove it and you have a bad version of the warrior of 6 months ago.

Sorry to say but just because other classes have it isn’t a justification for us to have it, which also sadly has been stated by the devs.

And the devs were always right.

No but what’s easier convincing someone to work within their beliefs or get them to change them?

Mithfir.1038:

Gallrvaghn.4921:

Mithfir.1038:

LordByron.8369:

Mithfir.1038:

RTL back in the day was overpowered .

stop using that word…
Look at other profession skills

Look at elmentalist…and his cloth/low HP short range style

If you say that our mobility is fine you never played elementalist…
You can no longer follow anyone …even a mesmer can disengage a D/D ele without any problem as its now.

Even without looking at warrior or thief or ranger mobility….. a profession locked in short range NEEDS mobility.
Remove it and you have a bad version of the warrior of 6 months ago.

Sorry to say but just because other classes have it isn’t a justification for us to have it, which also sadly has been stated by the devs.

And the devs were always right.

No but what’s easier convincing someone to work within their beliefs or get them to change them?

Please the general community with an over the top nerf that does not solve the main issue.

Mithfir.1038:

LordByron.8369:

Mithfir.1038:

RTL back in the day was overpowered .

stop using that word…
Look at other profession skills

Look at elmentalist…and his cloth/low HP short range style

If you say that our mobility is fine you never played elementalist…
You can no longer follow anyone …even a mesmer can disengage a D/D ele without any problem as its now.

Even without looking at warrior or thief or ranger mobility….. a profession locked in short range NEEDS mobility.
Remove it and you have a bad version of the warrior of 6 months ago.

Sorry to say but just because other classes have it isn’t a justification for us to have it, which also sadly has been stated by the devs.

See the part where devs nerf to the ground everything and then months later revert part of those nerfs…..

And again a short range profession needs mobility to be of any use.
if it also have low armor and HP mobility is a total necessity.

Between the numbers of drawbacks there is how easy is to stun an ele considering his stability/stunbreak are possibly the worst amongst professions.

So people like daphoenix who kite groups of players around without any issue don’t exist? I’m sorry but I fail to expirence or see the issues that apparently are so rife in the community.

Mithfir.1038:

So people like daphoenix who kite groups of players around without any issue don’t exist? I’m sorry but I fail to expirence or see the issues that apparently are so rife in the community.

yeah are the same players possibly that complained metor shower was overpowered…..

No player was harmed in the making….(see troll little zergs nothing more…hit and run)
Also my favourite part is when he summons an earth ele and half of his opponent focus on it while he is fleeing XD.

But just to fight some totally wrong informations that keeps popping UP.

1) WWW ele was NEVER considered (officially see interviews) overpowered
2) main ELE OP point was a scepter dagger cantrip build used to capture points (the issue is capture points….).
But MOSTLY (and its the point that makes me really sad) was that pvp map with the orb……

3) You can see plenty of videos of profession 1VSX+ in www the difference is that actually other profession could KILL some opponents

There’s tons of videos of eles kiting around zergs but never killing any of them. You rarely ever see even daphoenix kill anyone except when he manages to escape the zerg and a couple idiots chase after him and he manages to kill 1. On the other hand, there’s also tons of videos of warriors charging directly into groups of 20+ alone, killing most of them, and still managing to run halfway across the map when his health gets low, regening to full and returning to finish off the rest of them. Yet ele is OP because it used to be able to harass groups of people and get away and never kill any of them. I just love the ignorance of some people sometimes.

Nikkinella.8254:

There’s tons of videos of eles kiting around zergs but never killing any of them. You rarely ever see even daphoenix kill anyone except when he manages to escape the zerg and a couple idiots chase after him and he manages to kill 1. On the other hand, there’s also tons of videos of warriors charging directly into groups of 20+ alone, killing most of them, and still managing to run halfway across the map when his health gets low, regening to full and returning to finish off the rest of them. Yet ele is OP because it used to be able to harass groups of people and get away and never kill any of them. I just love the ignorance of some people sometimes.

That there is a warrior issue, which anet has agreed needs to be toned down so I wouldnt bother comparing classes.

Mithfir.1038:

That there is a warrior issue, which anet has agreed needs to be toned down so I wouldnt bother comparing classes.

look in necro, mesmer, ranger, guardian, engineer and finally THIEF class subforums.

Thieves are even worse than warriors in that.

But aside that i remember you that devs said that ele was somehow “really strong in PvP, but even so it bleeds in WWW andis adamantly uneffective in PvE”

Just before the huge nerf that hit PvP-WWW-PvE.

Fresh from thief forum
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzSnrOvsAnA

Look at min 5 and enjoy….try to say OP one more time if you can

Mithfir.1038:

So people like daphoenix who kite groups of players around without any issue don’t exist? I’m sorry but I fail to expirence or see the issues that apparently are so rife in the community.

Yes, because running around KITING a dumb zerg is sooooo OP.

Have you ever heard how many eles died in the last MLG tourney? None. Because they were so OP they were banned from being used in the tournament.

I’ve found a solution to the RTL problem.

Rerolled to engi and i can have rocket boots every 16 secs, with swiftness it takes me even further than rtl, blast finishes into smoke for stealth, removes immobilize and other movement imparings.

This is were ele is going..

Mithfir.1038:

<snippity snip for sanities sake>
aka everything you`ve typed

RTL “back in the day” was never over powered.
The only reason folk kittened about it, was because they were too stupid to immob, stun etc the Ele.
Amount of times I`ve had small groups chasing me all over & not one of them did that, either because they didn`t equip, use the right weapons or spells, does not make the spell I use op, nor the class…
Even in spvp it got halved range, yet no one else` spells did…

You`re wasting time linking Daphoenix clips or mentioning them.
Show me one where he kills loads or all when out numbered & I don`t mean against uplevels or noobs. We can all post clips of fights that we outlived when shouldn`t of stood a chance, but fighting the clueless ones doesn`t make a class op.

D/D Ele is a melee/short range class only with no weapon swap.
There is no valid reason at all why this class alone should be hit with a double cd on RTL.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Swoop 12 sec cd & has pet & has stealth.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rocket_Boots 20 cd (has this been raised, sure it was lower last time I played) has access to range, stealth, smoke.
Pop stealth & http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Temporal_Curtain & http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blink…
Thief….Not going to waste my time on that mobility mess…
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Whirlwind_Attack & http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rush (1650 range) & traited these break movement effects. Crit a critter, bonus speed boost.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flashing_Blade 10 sec cd 600 range, no double if doesn`t hit. Also has speed utils, forgotten name.

Every one of these can be used as an escape mechanic, yet doesn`t go on double cd unlike RTL.
Every one of these, you still have access to spells, utils, elites etc, whereas RTL you`re a ball of sparks with nothing, not even a “oh crap let me cancel” button.

Every one of these can weapon swap to range/melee at press of a button, so if chasing someone, they can still hit them & if being chased, can still hit back.
If stood at a keep wall in combat, can still hit them above/below.

What I want, is for one time that someone claiming that RTL was/is OP is to give a valid reason/proof as to why, because it clearly isn`t.

Wait you just commented on how daphoenix kites zergs but kills nothing while while complaining about mobility? Because kitten logic?

Where did I type kites?
You can stand directly in a zerg hitting them without moving much or at all, if they don`t pay any attention to you.

That is not kiting.

Not you Fishbait it was in response to Gallrvaghn. I actually enjoyed your post and havent yet had the chance yet to respond.

Ah oopsies, sowwee
<blush>

Ive said it many times now. Im not really all that bothered about the disengage. Its now for me the fact that all it takes is 1 blind/block/dodge (prob easiest gap closer in the game to see coming) and im then struggling to keep myself up in ppls face.

Just about any class well played now has no problem disengaging/kiting from a dd ele, whilst i tickle them.

Fishbait.6723:

Ah oopsies, sowwee
<blush>

While I think linking any kind of videos is pointless due to meta changing and other things within the class being nerfed here’s some stuff. You’ll have to forgive me for the lack of variety, I lost my old youtube account with my old subscribes.

Yes I know the distance on rtl has since been fixed but this still shows the distance the class was capable of gaining on demand.

This one you can see him kite out and reset and by the time he comes back RTL is already back up. You can also see he just uses it when ever its up.

Here’s one of my favorites from the glory days.

Here’s a good one of daphoenix running circles around people pre nerf.

I do get where you are coming from, other classes have so much disengage that its absurd. If it was up to me I’d be bringing their mobility down as well, but it’s not. Rather than bringing our classes mobility up to them I would rather see something that’s going to help us fight rather than run and open up further build options for the class. Having the ability to disengage from any fight no matter the class is without a doubt overpowered versus the classes that don’t even have that as a possible option. I’m sorry I played pre RTL nerf and it was just too faceroll.

LordByron.8369:

Mithfir.1038:

RTL back in the day was overpowered .

stop using that word…
Look at other profession skills

Look at elmentalist…and his cloth/low HP short range style

If you say that our mobility is fine you never played elementalist…
You can no longer follow anyone …even a mesmer can disengage a D/D ele without any problem as its now.

Even without looking at warrior or thief or ranger mobility….. a profession locked in short range NEEDS mobility.
Remove it and you have a bad version of the warrior of 6 months ago.

let’s not forget about our 3 hour wait on stun breaking utilities. Which are obv. OP since so many eles use them in 2 or even 3 utility slots regardless of their build.

First clip showed the same problem, majority just ignored so could flip camp.
Guardian cast in wrong order really, should`ve really sword blinked & then immob`d ele, rest seemed to just auto attack cycle. Even when the necro (or engie, but sure was necro) pulled them back, no one else immob`d the Ele hehe.

Second clip, they weren`t exactly talented, also shows how bad Dragons Tooth & Fire grab are, takes a miracle to hit with those at times. & let`s face it, one was a staff ele, they`re walking loot bags or field spammers for other players, which is a shame.
(I`m back in Guild Wars nowadays, where staff isn`t considered a joke)

Also, yep he does kite out & gets reset, but that also means the enemies get a free reset too & as every other class has much better mobility then Ele these days, that`s even easier for them to do of late.
As far as I`m aware, no other class has had their cds extended on mobility, so if used right they shouldn`t of had much problem keeping up & I do recall some catching me often.

Watched fair bit of third clip, gave me flashback of when our dagger 3 used to appear on enemies lol, that confused me for ages that did hehe
tbh he was fighting terribads again, you can see in the first few fights, they`re barely fighting back & at times seem to just be relying on auto attacks. others just trying to walk away & don`t even drop AoE or anything. Take the ranger, uses bow & nothing else (Aah, memories of rangers using elite to root me, then instantly using LB 4 to knock me back haha)

Oddly, trying to recall Intigo server/guild, think I`ve fought & duelled them in WvWs in the past.

Fourth clip, Daphoenix even states in top comment “I’m aware this is a low skilled battle, but its still fun nonetheless. I’ll try and upload battles against higher skilled players :P” which I could see by the footage hehe

Just been thinking (ouch ;p) that when RTL was 15 second, it was still average, or perhaps slightly over, compared to other classes cds, when went to 20 it was almost average (but again, they can switch melee/range every eight seconds, warriors every four) therefore they could range us, keep us in combat & still catch up if using the right spell/weapons.

Forty seconds is just plain dumb.

I guess if they hit everyone with double cds or increased their cds it might help, but again, D/D is melee/short only so they really need it compared to others.

P.S. I played since beta/pre-nerfs etc & miss the good old days too
Having said that, I don`t miss gw2 after what it has turned into.

Le sigh

Mithfir.1038:

Wait you just commented on how daphoenix kites zergs but kills nothing while while complaining about mobility? Because kitten logic?

I forgot to add the /sarcasm on my post. Sorry about that.

Omnitek.3876:

Make RTL 20 secs if you don’t hit something. 40 secs if you do. Double the damage.

Risk vs Reward

I always kitten and hit RTL right when skill lag or someone stealths. Makes me sad, but I can keep 100% swiftness up, the out of combat utility is pointless for me, it is great in combat mobility.

If I miss, I’m not out 40 seconds of wait time. If I hit, I wanted to hit and ready for the wait.

sorry that’s a bad idea, the whole point of having 40 cd on non-hit RTL, is just to prevent eles to quick disengage, heal up and quick come back again.

while 20 cd on a hit RTL , so you can quickly engage and you will have RTL ready quick enough if you suddenly got bursted to hell and need to quick disengage, if you really want that 40 CD RTL on hit then you are just being an idiot or want to nerf ele mobility even more.

Try lowing your settings. usual helps with some lag. If thats not working its likely a server wide issue so your opponet is no better off. Or its time to upgrade your computer.

There is many ways to help reduce lag but changing a skill isn’t really 1 of them.

Redscope.6215:

These balance discussions are starting to sound more and more dev-biased every time they come about.

No kidding, why don’t thieves have a higher initiative cost when spamming a dozen escapes to well over 1200 range? Shouldn’t they have to choose between initiator or escape?

No, because it is some important developers favorite class. The only class with four class mechanics, only class with a resource that requires no active play, only class unaffected by chill, only class that can spam blind, virtually immune to conditions with one minor passive trait, conveniently has the most stealth and evasion- the only two defensive mechanics in the game without direct counters.

It’s been stated by the devs they are supposed to have the highest burst, easiest escape, easiest initiators, most evasion. So in other words the only thing the thief isn’t supposed to be best in, all at the same time, is health, healing, and armor.

The problem with RTL is it’s totally unreliable if cast from its max range, blocked, blinded, evaded, etc, etc, which will always make it to the 40sec CD unless you cast it at point-blank range. It’s the only decent mobility skill on the eles weapon kitten nal and it’s the only mobility skill with a stupid double CD. Granted that its range is not affected by cripple and chill like the other mobility skills (which should have been the issues fixed in the first place), it can be stopped by immobilized and other forms of CC.

The back to back nerfs on RTL were basically band-aid fixes to problems that were not solved like the movement speed, teleport and mobility issues in Spirit Watch and affected other parts of the game.

Yep, it’s really annoying to have RtL go on a 40-second cooldown when it’s blocked (especially by a Guardian’s Aegis), or if the Thief/Mesmer/Ranger/Engie you used it on goes into stealth. I used it as an initiator; why should I incur the penalty?

IMO RtL should at least be unblockable. Or it should not have its CD increased if it’s used on a target within its range, whether or not it hits or is blocked/evaded.

What about not hitting those HUGE bosses because the hit box is wrong AT THEIR FEET and then having that little extra dmg over =S.

I do use RtL to run other than engage, because 50% of the times it fails to hit and goes full 40s cd ….

Gallrvaghn.4921:

The back to back nerfs on RTL were basically band-aid fixes to problems that were not solved like the movement speed, teleport and mobility issues in Spirit Watch and affected other parts of the game.

Yep that is exactly right. But usually you adjust a map to the existing classes and you don’t mess with the classes to ‘repair’ a map. So much for artistic integrity :p They didn’t publicly test maps then and now the pvp-ers are stuck with zero interesting maps and d/d ele got intentionally kneecapped. Probably for good unless they overhaul pvp to be about …you know… fighting……instead of running around.