Guild Wars 2

I think it would balance this skill out abit if it could only be usable with a target on.

Thoughts ?

Edit: Would also make weapons other than Dagger as second hand viable..

Sigh…..

Rush identical to RTL so when the balanced it they balanced it against this. Understand?

Movement skills don’t require a target in most cases here are some examples.

Whirlwind Attack

Savage Leap

Leap of Faith

Swoop

Heartseeker

Jump Shot

Hornet Sting & Monarchs Leap

Infiltrator’s Arrow

Now this type of thread is troll bait so be ready for the rush of anger and if that is what you intended good job.

Imo the skill is already balanced. It’s a good engage/disengage skill which eles really need (especially non bunker eles). If it is only an engage skill non bunker eles are basically one shot kills who can’t escape which means there would be even more bunkers.

And why would that make other off hand weapons more viable? Because you change one skill? I would much rather see a focus buff instead of an RTL nerf.

Why would nerfing RtL make other weapons more viable?

I wish I could downvote a post.

Sorry op, but that’s just idiotic. I honestly can’t understand all the witch hunting towards ele.

The most ridiculous part is that almost NO ONE in this forum complains about the kittening build that makes them immortal, they prefer to complain about RtL.

The recharge hit to RtL was all that was necessary. What they have to deal with now is might stacking (this is a global problem as it should require more teamwork imo) and the heal rotation vs heal slot skills. A few elements across a few weapons have a select few skills that are useless (earth staff 4 for example), but the ele isn’t in a terrible state. I think the staff’s single target skills could use some more oomph, but that’s just me; the single target CC skills are plain awful as is and are really just window dressing as their pathing sucks.

The charge attacks (not ground target teleports) that don’t require a target are the ones that are affected by chill/cripple/swiftness. Personally I believe that if it does not require a target RTL should have this same weakness, just to be fair and to give people a chance to prevent out escape, if they know how to time their attacks.

If it requires a target then I am fine with the current state of ignoring movement effects.

purpleskies.3274:

The charge attacks (not ground target teleports) that don’t require a target are the ones that are affected by chill/cripple/swiftness. Personally I believe that if it does not require a target RTL should have this same weakness, just to be fair and to give people a chance to prevent out escape, if they know how to time their attacks.

If it requires a target then I am fine with the current state of ignoring movement effects.

Excellent, then up our base HP 200% and throw some damage buffs on as well and we will be happy to stay put for you to hit with your sword while we burn your eyebrows off.

You’re comparing similar abilities from very different classes and talking about balance. Come on.

That won’t be enough for people either, then it’ll be the healing.

Complaining will continue until eles can’t run away, can’t come close to mitigating incoming damage with their healing, while still maintaining the same poor damage bunkers do. Basically people will feel they’ll be “balanced” when eles are free kills every time.

Leuca.5732:

The recharge hit to RtL was all that was necessary. What they have to deal with now is might stacking (this is a global problem as it should require more teamwork imo) and the heal rotation vs heal slot skills. A few elements across a few weapons have a select few skills that are useless (earth staff 4 for example), but the ele isn’t in a terrible state. I think the staff’s single target skills could use some more oomph, but that’s just me; the single target CC skills are plain awful as is and are really just window dressing as their pathing sucks.

Now not to be unfair but might sacking like you said is a global “problem” but do you realize how many traits you would have to nerf around how many classes Might lets not even mention the food. Might stacks are part of the game we aren’t the only ones with access.

Heal slot vs heal rotation. Passive healing is strong across the board (look at ranger bunker, signet of malice , even the lowly Healing Signet is ok for PvE (a lil weak in PvP). I think many players forget ele is designed to heal and its is the nature of the class. We are by no means the best passive healer in the game (see ranger bunker) but we are designed to heal just like guardians its part of the class and given the DPS DPS DPS all the time nature of the game it provides the parity necessary. Honorable mention to Engi bunker if they sit in one spot with super elixir (and a few other traits) they probably have the best regen in the game.

Healing is just part of the game.

purpleskies.3274:

The charge attacks (not ground target teleports) that don’t require a target are the ones that are affected by chill/cripple/swiftness. Personally I believe that if it does not require a target RTL should have this same weakness, just to be fair and to give people a chance to prevent out escape, if they know how to time their attacks.

If it requires a target then I am fine with the current state of ignoring movement effects.

I actually understand what you are saying. And you are correct but I think you missed a valuable point. this skills used to work very much like a teleport (not affected by movement impairment) and is an altered state (you literally ride the lightning). Now while it true a skill like rush can’t be canceled by other GS skills it can be canceled by swapping weapons (we can’t do that). So you can get chilled while rushing swap to lets say sword warhorn and carry on or switch to shied and block. Ele can’t do this. RTL whether you get immobilized before it or not is a self stun by nature. Most players do not realize this on both sides and don’t immobolize the now defenseless ele as he switches to air.

realize that RTL despite its utility has its downfalls. Read my post above and look at Mobile Strkes and realize weapon movement skills across the board are actually pretty balanced.

purpleskies.3274:

The charge attacks (not ground target teleports) that don’t require a target are the ones that are affected by chill/cripple/swiftness. Personally I believe that if it does not require a target RTL should have this same weakness, just to be fair and to give people a chance to prevent out escape, if they know how to time their attacks.

If it requires a target then I am fine with the current state of ignoring movement effects.

If RTL was affected by cripple/chill, wouldn’t that mean we’d need to be given more mobility to compensate? After all Warriors, who have about 8000 more base hps and a couple hundred extra base armor, can beat us in a footrace using their abilities.

Warrior ones are affected by chill/cripple, naturally. Though if RTL was affected by it as well, we’d just be left in a situation where we were less mobile than a warrior in combat while having much less base hps and armor…and doing less damage. Doesn’t sound right to me.

Gaudrath.6725:

Excellent, then up our base HP 200% and throw some damage buffs on as well and we will be happy to stay put for you to hit with your sword while we burn your eyebrows off.

You’re comparing similar abilities from very different classes and talking about balance. Come on.

I only did the same thing the first poster did when he was defending RTL, compare it to every other movement skill that doesn’t require targeting. The poster said RTL was balanced against Rush. I just brought up an imbalance between those two skills and every other charge attack.

If I am wrong about this please explain why the ele should be the exception, rather than giving a sarcastic response please. When every single charge from every class is affected by crippled, what about eles necessitates they have one ability that isn’t?

They still have a short charge with fire which is affected by cripples/chills, they have very good access to swiftness, and a ground target teleport and they would still have RTL just with the weakness all other charge skills have. I am not advocating for removing RTL, and the ele would still be amazingly mobile (arguably still the best or just behind the thief), just a bit more balanced.

I like this. Guardian has a utility pretty similar to RTL, but it requires a target and Guardian is probably the most balanced class in PvP.

Eles can hold their own in 1v1, but what sets them apart from almost every other class is their ability to just run away unscathed every single time, which is stupid and incredibly irritating.

This is a running away ability, nothing more. This change would make it an ability used to catch people instead, making it pretty balanced.

Dog.1472:

I like this. Guardian has a utility pretty similar to RTL, but it requires a target and Guardian is probably the most balanced class in PvP.

Eles can hold their own in 1v1, but what sets them apart from almost every other class is their ability to just run away unscathed every single time, which is stupid and incredibly irritating.

This is a running away ability, nothing more. This change would make it an ability used to catch people instead, making it pretty balanced.

Sigh…

Read my post above please and carry an immobilize. Guardian in melee is unmacthed by any other class except DD ele so I a taking what you say with a grain of salt. Also thief (which I play) ranger (which i play) and Warrior (which I play) can all run away the same as an ele. Its the players and there lack of understanding or movement and how to escape that makes ele uncatchable to most. I only play classes that can be traited to be highly mobile there are 4 of them not 1(engi can be but its more damage avoidance than running fast). fastest btw when traited is Sword/GS ranger actually followed by traited warrior, then low and behold high initiative regen thief then DD ele.

purpleskies.3274 read my second post it answers the one you posted after it.

Ohh and the idea is stupid I am sorry but it is unless your going to use logic why post?

TheGuy.3568:

purpleskies.3274 read my second post it answers the one you posted after it.

Ohh and the idea is stupid I am sorry but it is unless your going to use logic why post?

Seriously not cool, I would ask you to please be respectful, I did not call anyone stupid or claim they had no logic. I would ask you to show the same level of respect.

I think there is logic to say treat charge skills equally across all classes, rather than making one an exception. I also think logic in saying that there should be a way to counter an escape skill if you know how to time things properly, because otherwise it leads to an imbalance where one class can get away and the only counter is to be one of the few classes who can keep up.

Yes, Immobilize will totally stop an Ele.

Granting regeneration to yourself or an ally cures a condition, attuning to water grants regeneration, using a cantrip grants regeneration, cleansing fire: remove 3 conditions (4 actually), mist form: make yourself invulnerable for 3 seconds while remaining completely mobile (and remove a condition).

Combine their lack of condition removal with the super long casting time that RTL has and you can totally stop them right in their tracks.

Why on earth would you do that?

Yes let’s get rid of our only viable escape option. While we’re at it, lets get rid of thieves stealth and shadowstep, they can escape too easily with that. Mesmer’s stealth and blink next, they can use it to get away, I’m not happy with that. All Elementalist has going for it is regular healing and mobility. Take away mobility and we may as well play a Guardian.

purpleskies

I only did the same thing the first poster did when he was defending RTL, compare it to every other movement skill that doesn’t require targeting. The poster said RTL was balanced against Rush. I just brought up an imbalance between those two skills and every other charge attack.
If I am wrong about this please explain why the ele should be the exception, rather than giving a sarcastic response please. When every single charge from every class is affected by crippled, what about eles necessitates they have one ability that isn’t?

The ability isn’t overpowered, people simply don’t know how to counter it, which is pretty easy, actually. Just pop immobilize on the ele when they switch to air when low on HP (and likely to run). They’ll try to RtL and just sit there in one place, rooted and incapable of doing anything. Still sounds imbalanced?

Furthermore, when I fight someone in WvW and their buddies show up, I have means to escape even as a Guardian. I can target a rabbit, for example, and teleport for 1200 instantly and there is nothing anyone can do about it. Your “balance” would change nothing in that regard. Plus I have tons of HP, stun breakers and mitigations so I can often just walk away with people shooting me in the back.

And that finally brings me to the big point – that eles need their escape cards. We have the lowest base HP and lowest armor in the game. If thieves can pop stealth and escape any time they like and they argue this is because they’re the squishiest of medium armor classes, then the same logic should apply to elementalists, the squishiest of light classes. Even more so.

So if you would like “balanced” RtL, then you would need to balance our base HP and damage so that we don’t need to run away as often and are not so easily overwhelmed. There was nothing sarcastic in my post.

Some people are so blinded by the perception that ele is “balanced” it is unbelievable

TheGuy.3568:

Now not to be unfair but might sacking like you said is a global “problem” but do you realize how many traits you would have to nerf around how many classes Might lets not even mention the food. Might stacks are part of the game we aren’t the only ones with access.

Heal slot vs heal rotation. Passive healing is strong across the board (look at ranger bunker, signet of malice , even the lowly Healing Signet is ok for PvE (a lil weak in PvP). I think many players forget ele is designed to heal and its is the nature of the class. We are by no means the best passive healer in the game (see ranger bunker) but we are designed to heal just like guardians its part of the class and given the DPS DPS DPS all the time nature of the game it provides the parity necessary. Honorable mention to Engi bunker if they sit in one spot with super elixir (and a few other traits) they probably have the best regen in the game.

Healing is just part of the game.

You could definitely tone down might stacking on professions that keep up huge stacks with little effort and it would not throw off the game that much. Reducing might stacks from the warrior greatsword trait by making it a % chance on critical hit is an example; you could also tone down the sheer number of blast finishers elementalists have on some sets. It would not require an entire rework of the trait system, so please don’t exaggerate.

A ranger bunker is better at self-preservation by a tad, but it cannot match the aoe healing an elementalist puts out (even without a cleric amulet), nor can a guardian. I’m fine with elementalists being good at self preservation via damage avoidance/good self healing, but the sheer number of aoe heals they get on sets that were clearly designed around damage capabilities seems a bit absurd. An elementalist using s/d has a potential aoe healing rotation that rivals (and often surpasses) the healing slot skills of other professions, and it takes little effort on their part to accomplish this.

To sum it up: Might and healing are part of the game; let’s make them reasonable parts of the game.

Gaudrath.6725:

The ability isn’t overpowered, people simply don’t know how to counter it, which is pretty easy, actually. Just pop immobilize on the ele when they switch to air when low on HP (and likely to run). They’ll try to RtL and just sit there in one place, rooted and incapable of doing anything. Still sounds imbalanced?

I never said it was OP. Yes it is still imbalanced because other charges are affected by immobilize as well but can also be countered by cripple and chill. So RtL is still superior to other movement abilities, and the ele is strong enough and has enough condition removal that they should have the same limit as other classes.

Furthermore, when I fight someone in WvW and their buddies show up, I have means to escape even as a Guardian. I can target a rabbit, for example, and teleport for 1200 instantly and there is nothing anyone can do about it. Your “balance” would change nothing in that regard. Plus I have tons of HP, stun breakers and mitigations so I can often just walk away with people shooting me in the back.

I have that on my guardian as well, and I said in my first post if you want to make RtL require a target it would be balanced as well, because it isn’t always easy or possible to find a target on my guard, which is a downside of that kind of movement even though it has the upside of ignoring chills and cripples.

Gaudrath.6725:

And that finally brings me to the big point – that eles need their escape cards. We have the lowest base HP and lowest armor in the game. If thieves can pop stealth and escape any time they like and they argue this is because they’re the squishiest of medium armor classes, then the same logic should apply to elementalists, the squishiest of light classes. Even more so.

I disagree that the only things an ele has to survive is mobility, we have healing, one of the best access to protect, mist form, amazing cures for conditions, lots of CC ect. But mobility is a big part of the classes defense I agree. And I am not saying to take away the eles escape cards, it would break the class if they did that. I also did not mention any of the other escape skills like the short charge on fire, the access to swiftness, the great mobility that you have with FGS and teleport. I also did not say remove RtL or reduce it’s distance or recast. All I said was it should be like other classes charge skills and subject to cripple and chill, if you are going to have the upside of not requiring a target.

That way other classes have a way to counter it, make it so a good opponent can make escaping hard, so you have to pay attention to your conditions before you ride the lightening. Would it be so wrong to hit ether renewal before RtL?

purpleskies.3274:

I disagree that the only things an ele has to survive is mobility, we have healing, one of the best access to protect, mist form, amazing cures for conditions, lots of CC ect. But mobility is a big part of the classes defense I agree. And I am not saying to take away the eles escape cards, it would break the class if they did that. I also did not mention any of the other escape skills like the short charge on fire, the access to swiftness, the great mobility that you have with FGS and teleport. I also did not say remove RtL or reduce it’s distance or recast. All I said was it should be like other classes charge skills and subject to cripple and chill, if you are going to have the upside of not requiring a target.

That way other classes have a way to counter it, make it so a good opponent can make escaping hard, so you have to pay attention to your conditions before you ride the lightening. Would it be so wrong to hit ether renewal before RtL?

A good opponent can make escaping hard. I’ve been countered with immobilize for my RtL more than once and promptly killed. People do manage to chase me down when I use RtL to escape, because we’re not the only class with high mobility.

Poor opponents? No. They deserve to be left in the dust.

Also, not everyone should be forced to slot Ether Renewal in order to be able to survive. We have enough issues with that sort of thing already, what with Arcane tree being almost mandatory.

Have you ever tried to escape pursuit as an ele using Burning Speed or Lightning Flash? Those are useless as escape skills. You’re confusing evasion and escape. Evasion is something you use to evade a few attacks, confuse the enemy and continue the fight. Escapes you use when you want to disengage. Any half competent player won’t be deterred in their pursuit by a few short range evasions or teleports or else nobody would ever be able to catch mesmers.

Again, if you think RtL should be like other classes charge abilities, then elementalists should also get abilities those other classes have, primarily much greater base HP and better damage per skill so we can kill faster and survive better. Then you would remove the need to have a solid retreat and disengage option – we could stay in the fight longer and survive greater punishment.

You cannot balance stuff by changing things on one end only. There is a reason why RtL is the way it is.

Dog.1472:

Yes, Immobilize will totally stop an Ele.

Granting regeneration to yourself or an ally cures a condition, attuning to water grants regeneration, using a cantrip grants regeneration, cleansing fire: remove 3 conditions (4 actually), mist form: make yourself invulnerable for 3 seconds while remaining completely mobile (and remove a condition).

Combine their lack of condition removal with the super long casting time that RTL has and you can totally stop them right in their tracks.

I don’t know if trolling or not but certainly a totally ignorant post… Unless they integrated all those traits in the Elementalist profession (which they didn’t as far as I know) what you mention is achievable with certain traits/builds. Last I checked, RtL is the only option for a non-bunker Ele to escape, and if you made a very simple effort to search before posting, how builds/skills actually work, you would realise that a non-very-specific built Ele doesn’t have all the above condition removals.

Yes, nerf RtL even more, so MORE people roll D/D bunkers, since nerfing their one and only escape skill, that makes going something OTHER than D/D bunker a bit more viable is a great idea…. the “problem” is to make other builds more viable by buffing them, not by nerfing the only viable build more, something that unfortunately our Devs (and some posters) don’t know.

Again, people complain about Rtl when the real culprit is bunkering. Eles don’t have this godly condition removal unless traited 30 in water, usually complemented by 20-30 in arcana. What about offensive eles who don’t trait condition removal? Rtl still op then? Know the class and acutally understand it, and not basing your complaints on what you preceive or hear from others.

Ele bunkering is still strong and still needs adjustments, but rtl isn’t the issue. If you have beef with enemies escaping, talk to thieves, mesmers, and other classes like warriors that can trait for mobility. If you can’t stop an ele from using rtl, you would not have the skill to stop them even if rtl was affected by chill/cripple.

maddoctor.2738:

Dog.1472:

Yes, Immobilize will totally stop an Ele.

Granting regeneration to yourself or an ally cures a condition, attuning to water grants regeneration, using a cantrip grants regeneration, cleansing fire: remove 3 conditions (4 actually), mist form: make yourself invulnerable for 3 seconds while remaining completely mobile (and remove a condition).

Combine their lack of condition removal with the super long casting time that RTL has and you can totally stop them right in their tracks.

I don’t know if trolling or not but certainly a totally ignorant post… Unless they integrated all those traits in the Elementalist profession (which they didn’t as far as I know) what you mention is achievable with certain traits/builds. Last I checked, RtL is the only option for a non-bunker Ele to escape, and if you made a very simple effort to search before posting, how builds/skills actually work, you would realise that a non-very-specific built Ele doesn’t have all the above condition removals.

Yes, nerf RtL even more, so MORE people roll D/D bunkers, since nerfing their one and only escape skill, that makes going something OTHER than D/D bunker a bit more viable is a great idea…. the “problem” is to make other builds more viable by buffing them, not by nerfing the only viable build more, something that unfortunately our Devs (and some posters) don’t know.

This.

People think that nerfing RtL is the ultimate solution lol, it’s kinda sad how wrong they are.

It’d be so easy to nerf soothing disruption (even more), healing ratios and that water grandmaster trait to oblivion, but nope.avi, let’s kill RtL so we hurt every single non bunker build in the process!

I wanna feed this troll thread….sooo
The problem is not rtl, it’s the process where you escape and HEAL UP to over 9000% of health. Then go back into the big battle. So you need to reduce the healing or make cast times longer or simply take out one of the two heals of a S/D bunker.
There you go my son.

maddoctor.2738:

Dog.1472:

Yes, Immobilize will totally stop an Ele.

Granting regeneration to yourself or an ally cures a condition, attuning to water grants regeneration, using a cantrip grants regeneration, cleansing fire: remove 3 conditions (4 actually), mist form: make yourself invulnerable for 3 seconds while remaining completely mobile (and remove a condition).

Combine their lack of condition removal with the super long casting time that RTL has and you can totally stop them right in their tracks.

I don’t know if trolling or not but certainly a totally ignorant post… Unless they integrated all those traits in the Elementalist profession (which they didn’t as far as I know) what you mention is achievable with certain traits/builds. Last I checked, RtL is the only option for a non-bunker Ele to escape, and if you made a very simple effort to search before posting, how builds/skills actually work, you would realise that a non-very-specific built Ele doesn’t have all the above condition removals.

Yes, nerf RtL even more, so MORE people roll D/D bunkers, since nerfing their one and only escape skill, that makes going something OTHER than D/D bunker a bit more viable is a great idea…. the “problem” is to make other builds more viable by buffing them, not by nerfing the only viable build more, something that unfortunately our Devs (and some posters) don’t know.

Oh, so you run the 0/0/0/0/0 build? Traits are very much a part of the class. Different builds are irrelevant, all that matters is what the Elementalist is capable of achieving. The condition removal by itself is not as much of an issue as being able to quickly and easily put a massive gap between you and your opponent. No amount of healing will matter if you can’t get away from your foe. Healing is definitely strong on an Ele, but not as strong as their ability to run.

And no, putting 30 points into water doesn’t make you a bunker. The stats from your traits are insignificant in comparison to your gear. Combine those traits with that ability and some power focused gear and you are immortal.

And no, RtL is not the only option to escape. It is simply the best, most overpowered one.

I’m not going to argue that Eles don’t have a lot of viable builds because they don’t. The fire tree is useless and needs a buff, but because some things are underpowered, it doesn’t mean that some things aren’t overpowered.

Dog.1472:

maddoctor.2738

I don’t know if trolling or not but certainly a totally ignorant post… Unless they integrated all those traits in the Elementalist profession (which they didn’t as far as I know) what you mention is achievable with certain traits/builds. Last I checked, RtL is the only option for a non-bunker Ele to escape, and if you made a very simple effort to search before posting, how builds/skills actually work, you would realise that a non-very-specific built Ele doesn’t have all the above condition removals.

Yes, nerf RtL even more, so MORE people roll D/D bunkers, since nerfing their one and only escape skill, that makes going something OTHER than D/D bunker a bit more viable is a great idea…. the “problem” is to make other builds more viable by buffing them, not by nerfing the only viable build more, something that unfortunately our Devs (and some posters) don’t know.

Oh, so you run the 0/0/0/0/0 build? Traits are very much a part of the class. Different builds are irrelevant, all that matters is what the Elementalist is capable of achieving. The condition removal by itself is not as much of an issue as being able to quickly and easily put a massive gap between you and your opponent. No amount of healing will matter if you can’t get away from your foe. Healing is definitely strong on an Ele, but not as strong as their ability to run.

And no, putting 30 points into water doesn’t make you a bunker. The stats from your traits are insignificant in comparison to your gear. Combine those traits with that ability and some power focused gear and you are immortal.

And no, RtL is not the only option to escape. It is simply the best, most overpowered one.

I’m not going to argue that Eles don’t have a lot of viable builds because they don’t. The fire tree is useless and needs a buff, but because some things are underpowered, it doesn’t mean that some things aren’t overpowered.

I don’t get your point. Many classes can place a massive gap between you and your opponent, why is the problem of running away exclusive to eles? You ignored mesmers, thieves, and warriors. When you say “no amount of healing will matter if you can’t get away from your foe”, you ignored guardians, rangers, engineers and necros who normally don’t flee but can hold their ground very well with healing/regen.

Rtl is a great escape move but it’s not unstoppable. I think stealth is stronger for escapes because of the fact it has no hard counter, and being able to see your opponent’s movement while they can’t see yours gives huge potential for positioning however you want.

Dog.1472:

Oh, so you run the 0/0/0/0/0 build? Traits are very much a part of the class. Different builds are irrelevant, all that matters is what the Elementalist is capable of achieving. The condition removal by itself is not as much of an issue as being able to quickly and easily put a massive gap between you and your opponent. No amount of healing will matter if you can’t get away from your foe. Healing is definitely strong on an Ele, but not as strong as their ability to run.

And no, putting 30 points into water doesn’t make you a bunker. The stats from your traits are insignificant in comparison to your gear. Combine those traits with that ability and some power focused gear and you are immortal.

And no, RtL is not the only option to escape. It is simply the best, most overpowered one.

I’m not going to argue that Eles don’t have a lot of viable builds because they don’t. The fire tree is useless and needs a buff, but because some things are underpowered, it doesn’t mean that some things aren’t overpowered.

No I run the famous, no points in Water build, and maybe also nothing in Arcane build. Unfortunately without those, I have limited condition removal so your post of amazing condition removal is irrelevant.

The important fact, is that a “nerf” to RtL will ruin builds that don’t have the rest of the “immortal D/D package” items and uses RtL as the only escape, I hope that’s easy to understand. The recent nerf to RtL (upping the cooldown) didn’t nerf D/D Bunkers at all, the “others” were hit more because they don’t have all the other goodies, in a sense Anet’s attempt at balancing failed to achieve the major goal, limit D/D bunker eles, and instead forced even more players to make the change.

The problems with the skills is that it automatically targets the nearest rabbit instead of going straight when nothing is selected.

Xillllix.3485:

The problems with the skills is that it automatically targets the nearest rabbit instead of going straight when nothing is selected.

Turn off autotargetting in options and you won’t have that problem.

Terrible suggestion, OP.

Removing a cheap escape option in no way “ruins” any build. It will make it so that one class is no longer immortal. Please, explain how running away is an integral part of your ability to fight 1v1 and isn’t in any way a cheap mechanic. I can imagine how healing nerfs could ruin builds, but please, tell me how many people you are able to kill because of your ability to run away.

Remove our only means of escape, which is very easy to turn against us if you aren’t a terribad player and know what you’re doing, and you would have to buff our health, healing power and armor significantly so we can actually survive for more than 2 seconds when we no longer have escape as an option. you can’t take away something without adding something to compensate for it. That isn’t balancing it’s called screwing up the class. I’m thinking OP is a thief player who’s just here trolling. They ALWAYS want every other class nerfed so they can 1 shot kill everyone while hiding in the shadows like cowards.

Dog.1472:

Removing a cheap escape option in no way “ruins” any build. It will make it so that one class is no longer immortal. Please, explain how running away is an integral part of your ability to fight 1v1 and isn’t in any way a cheap mechanic. I can imagine how healing nerfs could ruin builds, but please, tell me how many people you are able to kill because of your ability to run away.

You’re right, gap closers and escapes are cheap gimmicks. Lets get rid of stealth while we’re at it, teleports too, they don’t deal high damage, why have them? In fact every sort of skill that can propel your character beyond running speed. As every single encounter in this game is a structured duel that doesn’t require them….

Dog.1472:

Removing a cheap escape option in no way “ruins” any build. It will make it so that one class is no longer immortal. Please, explain how running away is an integral part of your ability to fight 1v1 and isn’t in any way a cheap mechanic. I can imagine how healing nerfs could ruin builds, but please, tell me how many people you are able to kill because of your ability to run away.

You cannot make one mobility skill require a target and let all other mobility skills as is.

If you think RTL should only work on targets then you must also change all the other mobility skills the same way. So this change would also effect warriors Rush, Savage Leap, Bulls Charg, thiefs Heartseeker or Guardians Leap of Faith.

I dont like this idea because it would make blinks to powerful.

Sigh since I keep getting infractions I will put it like this. Nerfing rtl is senseless its not going to happen and the devs are smarter than half our crack pot suggestions. They balanced this all already.

Warrior Rush -> Bull’s Charge (range is actually 900) -> Whirlwind Attack -> swap to sword and Savage Leap

Total range covered 1200 + 900 + 450 +600 = 3,150 4 seconds total time

Elementalist RtL -> Burning Speed -> Lightning Flash

Total range covered 1200 + 600 + 900 = 2,700 Total time 3 seconds

Ranger Hornet Sting (you flip the camera toward your opponent cast the skill. You wont get hit as the skill is an evade 130 units described but the real value is closer to 400) -> Monarch’s Leap -> Lightning Reflexes (flip the camera same as Hornet sting. the skil evades also unlisted but moves 600 units) -> GS Swoop

Total range covered 400 + 600 + 600 +1100 = 2,700 total time 4 seconds. However, due to swoops naturally low cd of 12 seconds compared to the 20 for rtl and rush ranger is the most mobile class in the game.

Thief base initiative of 12 and 1.33 second replenish

Heartseeker (range is 450 but distance traveled is affected by movement effect ie swiftness etc) cost is 3. Doing this 4 times in a row covers 1800 units however by the time you finish the last cast with each skill taking 3/4 a second to execute you would have recovered 2 initiative. -> Shadowstep

Total range covered 1800 (450 × 4)+ 1200 = 3000 total time 3.25 seconds. However, by the time you finished your shadow step at base regen you would receive your next initiative allowing for one more HS so total range is actually 3,450 total time 4 seconds

Now if we cut BS and do a little math the fact is ele is the forth most mobile class. Thief is number one in a sprint, and ranger is number one over time using a strictly melee set.

If you check my sig I have played each and every one of these this way.

Edit:

Smile

Someone was barking at me for travel times so I edited them in even though they are linked. Also it should be noted that Rush, HS (still have to test swoop) are affected by movement impairing skills ie slows. However they are positively affected by movement hastening skill. Under the affect of swiftness rush and heart seeker will travel father.

In reference to perma-swiftness. My warrior has it my thief has the movement signet and so does my ranger. Ranger is still the fastest over a long distance. It should also be noted that 30% boon duration/ 60% Attunement cool down and a number of traits (2) are mandatory for ele to have perma swiftness. It also requires a long rotation of skills for DD (4).

Economics primary focus in analytical economics ie game theory, experimental, and econometrics. If anyone was wondering what I majored in.

I might need to reiterate this, but if you can preform basic mathematical calculations you can figure out which class is the most mobile (here’s a hint its not ele). Extra Credit if you tried it in game (I did).

You must not have studied physics. Distance traveled by itself means nothing. You need to factor in time spent to travel said distance. Get your notebook back out and start adding up how much more distance the Ele covers running with their perma swiftness while another class is still spamming it’s slow cast abilities.

I forgot to point out that you’re not even listing all of the Ele’s movement abilities. The correct distance is this:

RtL > Bruning Speed > Lightning Flash > Fiery Whirl > Fiery Rush > Lightning Leap > Flame leap

1200 + 600 + 900 + 900 + 900 + 600 + 550 = 5650

If you want to go and say it’s ridiculous to use conjured weapons, let me just point out your ranger all melee setup.

On top of that, Your ranger and thief do not have perma swiftness, the movement signet is a 25% increase, swiftness is a 33% increase. On top of that, the Ele has that signet too.

Would you like to go on pretending that the Ele has limited mobility somehow?

Edit: I forgot one.

Dog.1472:

I forgot to point out that you’re not even listing all of the Ele’s movement abilities. The correct distance is this:

RtL > Bruning Speed > Lightning Flash > Fiery Whirl > Fiery Rush > Lightning Leap > Flame leap

1200 + 600 + 900 + 900 + 900 + 600 + 550 = 5650

If you want to go and say it’s ridiculous to use conjured weapons, let me just point out your ranger all melee setup.

On top of that, Your ranger and thief do not have perma swiftness, the movement signet is a 25% increase, swiftness is a 33% increase. On top of that, the Ele has that signet too.

Would you like to go on pretending that the Ele has limited mobility somehow?

Edit: I forgot one.

I would love to hear your suggestions for ele.

the 8% gap is not enough to put you out of range once you account for movement skills. This isn’t a race its getting out of your enemies effective battle range do you understand? Also as I said before the movement skills of other classes are affected by movement states not ours. To dumb it down using a movement signet on another class = more range and for ele it does not.

I need to confirm because we have this RtL needs to be nerfed. Just asking if that what you mean? Note I did not bring up "banners"http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Banners. And if you go into conjure be thorough. Yo u need to go into charges, the fact you cant keep up swiftness, and many more factors you ignored.

BTW just to point out DD is a melee set. You can only compare it to other full melee sets. Once a thief goes D/P and Shortbow all bets are off. Please understand because I get tired of explaining this to posters DD is a melee set. Skills are balanced against other full melee sets. Is that clear? If not you can send me a pm and I will painstakingly explain it to you.

Understand we have no swap no ranged option. Do you understand? Let me explain it another way the devs gave DD so much mobility because we are stuck in melee and forced to close the gap. Do you understand? So when you say GS/Sword ranger isn’t viable your wrong, but I get what yo are saying. At the same time that doesn’t matter one bit. The skills for sword and greatsword are balanced against the dagger for ele. Do you understand?

I will say it again no matter how viable you feel the build is or is not DD ele can only be compared to both Sword and Greatsword simultaneously. This part is not up for debate. It is not a point of discussion. This is the basics. If you can’t concede o r understand this part we have nothing further to discuss because it would be a waist of time.

And honestly what’s your point overall that RtL is the movement skill out of balance? and whats your suggestion to fix it? Because of all the skills you mentioned the only one out of balance is the elite utility Fiery Greatsword. So your point was?

PS

I will start the thread.

When comparing warrior and ele mobility you have to add this in:

-While crippled

When crippled (which is 24/7 against good opponents) warrior movement skills get halved in range:

Warrior Rush -> Bull’s Charge (range is actually 900) -> Whirlwind Attack -> swap to sword and Savage Leap

Total range covered 1200 + 900 + 450 +600 = 3,150 / 2 = 1575 in 4 seconds total time

Elementalist RtL -> Burning Speed -> Lightning Flash

Total range covered 1200 + 600 + 900 = 2,700 Total time 3 seconds

Now you see the difference.

The other way would be to reduce the range of burning speed/RTL and even lightning flash range by 50% when crippled to make it more even.

You see the problem. The problem is not the range, it’s the immunities. Immobilise is the only counter really and ele does have incredible condi removal, so perhaps warrior skills should also remove all movement conditions while doing their thing?

Or make RTL affected by slows/chills/stuns/etc for its full duration.

Personally, my escape sequence is always the same: cantrip flash into RTL (cantrips remove condis in my spec)

Everyone throwing in pretty numbers. I am not even looking at the math because my jaw is on the ground.

No one here that is saying to change RtL is giving anything that will compensate for our loss. Think about this. How long will it take for people to get use to cripple/immobilize/chill the ele before an RtL? Do you honestly think we can go toe to toe with others.

WTF ARE YOU NOT TALKING ABOUT OUR HEALING!!!! WHY RtL.

This post seems like a bunch of warriors who just want to smash something. The people who grew up thinking magic is for wimps. There daddy was a warrior in ultima online, and they are carring on the torch.

Please think about what you are saying. You are going to kill the class. We already have bad damage compared to others. We have low hp and armor. And now you taking away our ability to escape every now and again for free kills. IS THAT REALLY FUN FOR YOU? I bet there are some twisted people here that just want mages to que up then do nothing but yell in chat free kills free kills while dancing and harlem shake videos playing on their 2nd monitor and bacon in their mouth.

Get real. If you can’t compensate for a significant loss as your guys are asking, then cut the kitten and ask for arenanet to just remove ele all together.

Dog.1472:

I forgot to point out that you’re not even listing all of the Ele’s movement abilities. The correct distance is this:

RtL > Bruning Speed > Lightning Flash > Fiery Whirl > Fiery Rush > Lightning Leap > Flame leap

1200 + 600 + 900 + 900 + 900 + 600 + 550 = 5650

If you want to go and say it’s ridiculous to use conjured weapons, let me just point out your ranger all melee setup.

On top of that, Your ranger and thief do not have perma swiftness, the movement signet is a 25% increase, swiftness is a 33% increase. On top of that, the Ele has that signet too.

Would you like to go on pretending that the Ele has limited mobility somehow?

Edit: I forgot one.

And in the time it takes to cast that Fiery Greatsword you are dead immobilized/stunned/whatever, or simply already far back to a Thief/Ranger/Warrior by the time you start using your FGS skills. Also, Ranger all melee setup isn’t bad at all.

mega.7816:

Everyone throwing in pretty numbers. I am not even looking at the math because my jaw is on the ground.

No one here that is saying to change RtL is giving anything that will compensate for our loss. Think about this. How long will it take for people to get use to cripple/immobilize/chill the ele before an RtL? Do you honestly think we can go toe to toe with others.

WTF ARE YOU NOT TALKING ABOUT OUR HEALING!!!! WHY RtL.

This post seems like a bunch of warriors who just want to smash something. The people who grew up thinking magic is for wimps. There daddy was a warrior in ultima online, and they are carring on the torch.

Please think about what you are saying. You are going to kill the class. We already have bad damage compared to others. We have low hp and armor. And now you taking away our ability to escape every now and again for free kills. IS THAT REALLY FUN FOR YOU? I bet there are some twisted people here that just want mages to que up then do nothing but yell in chat free kills free kills while dancing and harlem shake videos playing on their 2nd monitor and bacon in their mouth.

Get real. If you can’t compensate for a significant loss as your guys are asking, then cut the kitten and ask for arenanet to just remove ele all together.

Calm down man.

Ele’s are overpowered right now.

Until you realise this, you aren’t really going to be able to make sound balance decisions.

xiv.7136:

mega.7816:

Everyone throwing in pretty numbers. I am not even looking at the math because my jaw is on the ground.

No one here that is saying to change RtL is giving anything that will compensate for our loss. Think about this. How long will it take for people to get use to cripple/immobilize/chill the ele before an RtL? Do you honestly think we can go toe to toe with others.

WTF ARE YOU NOT TALKING ABOUT OUR HEALING!!!! WHY RtL.

This post seems like a bunch of warriors who just want to smash something. The people who grew up thinking magic is for wimps. There daddy was a warrior in ultima online, and they are carring on the torch.

Please think about what you are saying. You are going to kill the class. We already have bad damage compared to others. We have low hp and armor. And now you taking away our ability to escape every now and again for free kills. IS THAT REALLY FUN FOR YOU? I bet there are some twisted people here that just want mages to que up then do nothing but yell in chat free kills free kills while dancing and harlem shake videos playing on their 2nd monitor and bacon in their mouth.

Get real. If you can’t compensate for a significant loss as your guys are asking, then cut the kitten and ask for arenanet to just remove ele all together.

Calm down man.

Ele’s are overpowered right now.

Until you realise this, you aren’t really going to be able to make sound balance decisions.

No one here is able to make balance decisions anyway. The only thing people have to realize is that ANet is not listening to anything they say balance wise, so be nice to each other because no ones opinion really matters.

xiv.7136:

mega.7816:

Everyone throwing in pretty numbers. I am not even looking at the math because my jaw is on the ground.

No one here that is saying to change RtL is giving anything that will compensate for our loss. Think about this. How long will it take for people to get use to cripple/immobilize/chill the ele before an RtL? Do you honestly think we can go toe to toe with others.

WTF ARE YOU NOT TALKING ABOUT OUR HEALING!!!! WHY RtL.

This post seems like a bunch of warriors who just want to smash something. The people who grew up thinking magic is for wimps. There daddy was a warrior in ultima online, and they are carring on the torch.

Please think about what you are saying. You are going to kill the class. We already have bad damage compared to others. We have low hp and armor. And now you taking away our ability to escape every now and again for free kills. IS THAT REALLY FUN FOR YOU? I bet there are some twisted people here that just want mages to que up then do nothing but yell in chat free kills free kills while dancing and harlem shake videos playing on their 2nd monitor and bacon in their mouth.

Get real. If you can’t compensate for a significant loss as your guys are asking, then cut the kitten and ask for arenanet to just remove ele all together.

Calm down man.

Ele’s are overpowered right now.

Until you realise this, you aren’t really going to be able to make sound balance decisions.

Until you realise RtL is not the problem, you will understand this post is not necessary.

xiv.7136:

When comparing warrior and ele mobility you have to add this in:

-While crippled

When crippled (which is 24/7 against good opponents) warrior movement skills get halved in range:

Warrior Rush -> Bull’s Charge (range is actually 900) -> Whirlwind Attack -> swap to sword and Savage Leap

Total range covered 1200 + 900 + 450 +600 = 3,150 / 2 = 1575 in 4 seconds total time

Elementalist RtL -> Burning Speed -> Lightning Flash

Total range covered 1200 + 600 + 900 = 2,700 Total time 3 seconds

Now you see the difference.

The other way would be to reduce the range of burning speed/RTL and even lightning flash range by 50% when crippled to make it more even.

You see the problem. The problem is not the range, it’s the immunities. Immobilise is the only counter really and ele does have incredible condi removal, so perhaps warrior skills should also remove all movement conditions while doing their thing?

Or make RTL affected by slows/chills/stuns/etc for its full duration.

Personally, my escape sequence is always the same: cantrip flash into RTL (cantrips remove condis in my spec)

Dude I am sorry if I sound rude but you have to read the post before you because I just had to hash this out. You quoted my post and didn’t actually read it which makes it worse. I will repeat though Please read because I hate explaining this over and over.

Warrior movement skills can be affect both positively and negativity by movement effect ie having swiftness up will make you rush farther (try it).

Further more I get what your saying but if you go warhorn you can counter it. Furthermore immobilize can be fully countered by mobile strikes

also note our strong condition cleansing is traited not natural to the weapon set. Also the devs had admitted warriors have issues with conditions. We are =/= to warrior. We aren’t supposed to be.

Also if you read above RtL counts as an altered state. It can’t be canceled out of and is a self stun. If you get immobilized and RtL you are stuck with no utilities or counters. On a warrior when you rush as long as weapon swap is up you can cancel out of it.

let me say it again DD ele is a melee set its supposed to be exceedingly mobile because we always have to close the gap. All full melee sets are like this but most players run with one ranged weapon one melee and cant catch up.

Any thief running D/X with steal (forget about the utilities not rehashing that but they are nearly equal across the board) can catch up. Any warrior running S/X + GS can catch up. Any ranger running S/X + GS can catch up. They just don’t usually run that.

Now if we had swap maybe I would agree but we don’t. ele needs to be mobile bunker or GC our mobility is key. Not using false info or complaining these are just the facts.

Edit:

If you want to discuss ele/class balancing you can see that I posted on it and the removal or boons or a way to stop application. Mobility is not an issue. The places we can get our EHP can’t compare to warrior or necro. We have to be mobile as we can’t eat big hits. Do you understand? I don’t play the “this class is OP” game. I look at the facts and that’s about it. My warrior btw heads up vs a dd ele will usually win.

I guess you’re not really paying much attention to what the OP suggested if you go on about how a D/D Ele needs RtL as a gap closer. The suggestion was to make RtL require a target, not to remove it from existing. This would make it a gap closer and nothing more.

The reason the Ele’s mobility is OP is because it gives them a godlike ability to control the flow of combat and puts the Ele in control over whether or not they are engaged. When an Ele decides to disengage, they are able to retreat to a very safe distance with this one simple ability and that in turn gives them more than enough time to recover or retreat completely.

It’s time to stop acting as if this can be countered. As it has already been said, an Ele has some of the best condition removal and will not be affected by immobilize unless they aren’t paying attention. Now, even if you presume to be able to counter an ability that has no cast time by catching them off guard and predicting them, what happens then if an Ele decided to pop arcane shield before even switching to wind? Are you saying that now you are going to throw immobilize at an Ele who is in earth because you suspect they are going to run? Even if you did that, the Ele now has enough time to cure any condition as well.

The combination of the Ele’s mobility and healing make them the clear top class in PvP. A class that has mobility and nothing else will be an incredibly unforgiving class that has no room for mistakes. A class that has healing will be able to make a mistake while still staying in the fight. You say an Ele needs mobility to counter the big hits it takes, I say it needs healing to counter it, not mobility. Whichever it may be, one of them needs to be toned down.

Most eles agree the bunkering needs to be toned down, and are trying to point out Rtl is not the issue. We get it, no one likes their enemies escaping during a fight, but you haven’t answered my post above: what about thieves, mesmers, specced warriors that can peace out and reset fights as well? Do you have a problem with them escaping fights?

Bunker ele is strong. Healing should be toned down or more boon stripping/boon hate should be introduced. Mobility and escapes are not an issue, unless you want a cloth guardian and think thieves /mesmers should be removed from the game.