Guild Wars 2

Lightning doesn’t belong in the air attunement, it belongs in fire. I really want to see air redesigned, not necessarily changing the damage values, but the visuals to be AIR. And for anyone who thinks you cant hurt anyone with direct air, just take it up with Kazuma from Kaze no Stigma.

just curious, is there much of any logic behind putting lightning bolts into fire (two completely different things)?

Lightning is plasma, it fits into fire a lot more than it does air.

Logically this is something games generally get wrong, but I don’t think it’s the biggest issue out there. I guess it’s not something one stops to think about what lightning actually is, too often.

So fire should be plasma line. Then it could become a mixed bag of conditions. Goo for poison. Ethereal plasma for confusion. lightning for instant ranged direct damage with daze effect. Fire fields for burning and combos. What’s missing?

It would be decent to see air actually utilize air, outside of the control options. I mean, I can see the correlation that Anet made, but pure air would be pretty good.

I still want some darkness/gravity magic… or an actual arcane attunement with it’s own spells and what not.

ImProVocateur.5189:

Goo for poison.

Short of a black hole, I don’t think liquid plasma is really a thing.

Also, fire represents energy in general, while the other elements represent specific states of matter (levels of energy (and a lack of energy in the case of ice)), and as plasma is a state of matter close to that of gas (air), I’d say lightning’s domain of Air is justified.

Dark Magic lo, Orbs Black Hole, and Time Stop.. sounds like you played Dragon Nest.

Sounds like someones been watching too much airbender.

Lightning is generated by cloud formations and friction/temperature. Regardless of the fact that you can “burn” yourself with lightning, its primarily a process of atmospheric changes, which is what we have relegated to the “air” tree for elementalists. Other weather effects go to water (such as healing rain).

That being said, I’m hoping to see more wind-based skills when new weapons are finally released for ele’s.

ANet’s Plan:

Nerf Elemental more
Release new class: Manipulator

Manipulate the elements of Matter, Energy, Gravity, and Time!
(Just a better elementalist)

I can see it now.

Nah. All the “Time” stuff’s hiding out in Mesmer-land … unless they plan to nerf both classes into the dirt. Tesla’s idea of an actual Arcane Attunement is interesting as all hell, but ANet can’t even balance the four that Elementalists have now worth a bag of kittens.

Waisenpai.6028:

Dark Magic lo, Orbs Black Hole, and Time Stop.. sounds like you played Dragon Nest.

xD I actually did, before coming back. I also really love that magic type in other games, but I know Anet wouldn’t add it.

Still can dream, though.

This is one of those shaky technicalities, that even Avatar suffered from.

Lightning is plasma, but it comes from Air being superheated rapidly, which “heat” is sort of under Fire’s domain.

So who gets to control this? The person who controls heat/fire? Or the person who can control Air?

If a “water bender” can turn water into steam or ice, that means they can control the temperature over water, then shouldn’t an “air bender” be able to control the temperature of gasses? Thus being able to superheat air into lightning, or even condense it.

Shouldn’t an earth bender be able to melt rock into lava/molten rock?

SilverRule.7426:

Lightning doesn’t belong in the air attunement, it belongs in fire. I really want to see air redesigned, not necessarily changing the damage values, but the visuals to be AIR. And for anyone who thinks you cant hurt anyone with direct air, just take it up with Kazuma from Kaze no Stigma.

You’ve watched avatar too much. This is Guild Wars. Lightning belongs in Air.

Knote.2904:

If a “water bender” can turn water into steam or ice, that means they can control the temperature over water, then shouldn’t an “air bender” be able to control the temperature of gasses? Thus being able to superheat air into lightning, or even condense it.

Shouldn’t an earth bender be able to melt rock into lava/molten rock?

It’s all about the movement of molecules. If you ‘force water molecules to stand still’ you get ice. That doesn’t mean it’s cold (as shown by encased characters not freezing to death). Vapor is the opposite, you’re basically forcing the molecules far enough apart and they become a gas.

Air benders can probably speed up the molecules of a gas, but because they don’t add heat (just motion) it doesn’t do as much a firebender would do. The same goes for you earthbender example: they would need to supply a lot of very fast motions to individual atoms to get a ‘molten rock’. I’m guessing that it’s just not very practical.

Fire is different because it applies energy. So when a firebender creates steam, he cooks the water, whereas a water bender simply moves the particles apart (and thus creates ‘cold’ vapor).

ThiBash.5634:

SilverRule.7426:

Lightning doesn’t belong in the air attunement, it belongs in fire. I really want to see air redesigned, not necessarily changing the damage values, but the visuals to be AIR. And for anyone who thinks you cant hurt anyone with direct air, just take it up with Kazuma from Kaze no Stigma.

You’ve watched avatar too much. This is Guild Wars. Lightning belongs in Air.

Knote.2904:

If a “water bender” can turn water into steam or ice, that means they can control the temperature over water, then shouldn’t an “air bender” be able to control the temperature of gasses? Thus being able to superheat air into lightning, or even condense it.

Shouldn’t an earth bender be able to melt rock into lava/molten rock?

It’s all about the movement of molecules. If you ‘force water molecules to stand still’ you get ice. That doesn’t mean it’s cold (as shown by encased characters not freezing to death). Vapor is the opposite, you’re basically forcing the molecules far enough apart and they become a gas.

Air benders can probably speed up the molecules of a gas, but because they don’t add heat (just motion) it doesn’t do as much a firebender would do. The same goes for you earthbender example: they would need to supply a lot of very fast motions to individual atoms to get a ‘molten rock’. I’m guessing that it’s just not very practical.

Fire is different because it applies energy. So when a firebender creates steam, he cooks the water, whereas a water bender simply moves the particles apart (and thus creates ‘cold’ vapor).

Yeah, science kitten!

Chaosky.5276:

ImProVocateur.5189:

Goo for poison.

Short of a black hole, I don’t think liquid plasma is really a thing.

Also, fire represents energy in general, while the other elements represent specific states of matter (levels of energy (and a lack of energy in the case of ice)), and as plasma is a state of matter close to that of gas (air), I’d say lightning’s domain of Air is justified.

Earth > Solid
Water > Liquid
Air > Gas
Fire > Plasma

The four states of matter represented perfectly. You’re just reaching there. Sorry.

I find it interesting that the ancients seemed to have known a lot more about “advanced” science than we credit them. The four elements are very much in tune with the four states of matter, which are pretty elemental. And, while not ancient, per se, the notion of “ether” is coming back with the omnipresent “Dark Matter”. Everything old is new again.

Let me be God, i control all the elements around me. why not. logic is not a good standard for video games.

The point I’m trying to make is that, yes, lightning is based in air, but it’s also based in fire. Why should all our damaging abilities, and most of the other ones, rely solely on something that fits loosely into either?

Drakkon.4782:

Earth > Solid
Water > Liquid
Air > Gas
Fire > Plasma

The four states of matter represented perfectly. You’re just reaching there. Sorry.

I find it interesting that the ancients seemed to have known a lot more about “advanced” science than we credit them. The four elements are very much in tune with the four states of matter, which are pretty elemental. And, while not ancient, per se, the notion of “ether” is coming back with the omnipresent “Dark Matter”. Everything old is new again.

Heat has to do water as much as plasma, it’s just that not as much is required. In fact, “cold plasma” is entirely possible – if you were to fill an electromagnetic container soley with, say, electrons, you’d need almost no heat to maintain the plasma state, as electromagnetic repulsion would prevent them from bonding with each other.

As for the elements, that’s just a result of simple observation of solids, liquids, gases, and heat. About as basic as observations get. In the case of ether, the idea more closely resembles the dimension of space, the theory of which, from what I understand, actually did replace the concept of ether.

ThiBash.5634:

SilverRule.7426:

Lightning doesn’t belong in the air attunement, it belongs in fire. I really want to see air redesigned, not necessarily changing the damage values, but the visuals to be AIR. And for anyone who thinks you cant hurt anyone with direct air, just take it up with Kazuma from Kaze no Stigma.

You’ve watched avatar too much. This is Guild Wars. Lightning belongs in Air.

Knote.2904:

If a “water bender” can turn water into steam or ice, that means they can control the temperature over water, then shouldn’t an “air bender” be able to control the temperature of gasses? Thus being able to superheat air into lightning, or even condense it.

Shouldn’t an earth bender be able to melt rock into lava/molten rock?

It’s all about the movement of molecules. If you ‘force water molecules to stand still’ you get ice. That doesn’t mean it’s cold (as shown by encased characters not freezing to death). Vapor is the opposite, you’re basically forcing the molecules far enough apart and they become a gas.

Air benders can probably speed up the molecules of a gas, but because they don’t add heat (just motion) it doesn’t do as much a firebender would do. The same goes for you earthbender example: they would need to supply a lot of very fast motions to individual atoms to get a ‘molten rock’. I’m guessing that it’s just not very practical.

Fire is different because it applies energy. So when a firebender creates steam, he cooks the water, whereas a water bender simply moves the particles apart (and thus creates ‘cold’ vapor).

Im pretty sure that molecular motion IS temperature..So no way for the poor waterbender to slow water molecules without droping the waters temperatures below freezing point

Btw fire isnt even a thing like air,water ,earth are.The flames is just light as a product of a chemical reaction as well as the heat thats being unleashed.So i guess firebenders can force reactions with the air???But what do they even burn?
I feel very bad now but i must say the shyamalans film made more sense :P

Please don’t bring science into video games that don’t pretend to have any. And if you do bring it in, don’t make a mistake in it: all types of “elemental” magic are at their core mere manipulation of molecular/elementary particle velocity vectors (and i might be wrong here, quantum mechanics are not my strong suit) and therefore you may only argue for a single element existing.

Obligatory; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ro4NUx6z0AM

You all are focusing on science. We are talking about magic here. Magic follows different rules. If your going based on science, then sure lightning would be moved to fire, but then ice would belong in earth as its a solid. Magma would go into water as its a liquid. Dust storm skills would be moved to air. and shockwave skills would be removed because it doesnt fall into any as its a force and not a state of being.

Also, kitten wind, rename air to lightning and remove all wind/air crap. Lightning is the best element!

http://bpc.edu/mathscience/chemistry/images/periodic_table_of_elements.jpg

I demand atleast 100 more attunements, current system excludes so many elements and places kitten in totaly wrong categories.

Please people, stop the pseudosience nonsense.

Strang.8170:

http://bpc.edu/mathscience/chemistry/images/periodic_table_of_elements.jpg

I demand atleast 100 more attunements, current system excludes so many elements and places kitten in totaly wrong categories.

Please people, stop the pseudosience nonsense.

Fear my powers of plutonium!

Yo what’s the time? It’s time to get ill? NO. It’s time to wiki bro. It’s 2013. Find words about Hellenic Elements by clicking . Repeat after me, alchemy is science. Good, again. Alchemy is science. Great! You’re learning fast.

Tesla would tell you that lightning is charged in the ‘earth’ and the ‘condensation’ in the air, called clouds. Electricity happens because of ‘magnetism,’ which is a force, not a state of matter. Plasma seen as lightning is the super-heating of air atoms due to the force of magnetism that draws the electrical current.

Knowledge skill +1

Give me hydrogen attunement! Fusion is so OP.

Avead.5760:

Im pretty sure that molecular motion IS temperature..So no way for the poor waterbender to slow water molecules without droping the waters temperatures below freezing point

The internal energy of the molecule doesn’t change, its freedom to express it through motion does however. Molecules in solids still vibrate, they’re not moving relative to eachother. What the bender would do is simply make the ‘trot in place’ so to speak, thus creating a solid that’s still warm. Kinda like how you can compress a gas enough for it to become a fluid without lowering the temperature.

Btw fire isnt even a thing like air,water ,earth are.The flames is just light as a product of a chemical reaction as well as the heat thats being unleashed.So i guess firebenders can force reactions with the air???But what do they even burn?
I feel very bad now but i must say the shyamalans film made more sense :P

You have a point there. How DO the do it?!

Drakkon.4782:

Earth > Solid
Water > Liquid
Air > Gas
Fire > Plasma

The four states of matter represented perfectly. You’re just reaching there. Sorry.

Ice and steam/mist are non liquid water, so that doesn’t really work. Earth also has some dust attacks stuff, although that isn’t exactly gas. I think lightning just usually falls under air because it’s in the sky and comes from clouds… which are also technically water.

Anyway, I’d say electricity fits well enough in air. You don’t usually think of producing electricity just by heating things up after all.

I do agree that the air magic line focuses too much on lightning and not enough on air/wind effects though.

Perhaps I should rephrase essentially what I mean. Air attunement is AIR attunment. And I would really like to see more air than lightning in said attunement.

Of all the problems the Elementalist class has this is definitely #1 priority.

They should get right on this.

Chaosky.5276:

Heat has to do water as much as plasma, it’s just that not as much is required. In fact, “cold plasma” is entirely possible – if you were to fill an electromagnetic container soley with, say, electrons, you’d need almost no heat to maintain the plasma state, as electromagnetic repulsion would prevent them from bonding with each other.

You confuse your own point. Heat has nothing to do with the states of matter, though it, along with pressure, can be used to determine what state of matter a given substance will take. But for our discussion, heat is irrelevant.

HOWEVER, were it relevant, lightning is several THOUSAND degrees in temperature, while the hottest non-plasma flame usually drops out around 850F degrees. There are exceptions, but they are exceptions and not the rule. That only serves to place Lightning in the Fire category, instead of Air.

As for the elements, that’s just a result of simple observation of solids, liquids, gases, and heat. About as basic as observations get. In the case of ether, the idea more closely resembles the dimension of space, the theory of which, from what I understand, actually did replace the concept of ether.

Stop confusing Heat and Plasma. Heat, aka Infrared, is only one small part of the EM Spectrum, and is NOT, itself, a measure of energy, but a type of energy. Plasma is, technically, the state of matter where it stops being regarded as Matter and starts being regarded as Energy.

Again, this does seem to prove that Lightning, clearly the charge particle form of energy, as belonging to Plasma (Fire) over Gaseous (Air).

OP seems to have a point, though I don’t know what would take it’s place, so lightning should stay put.

Drakkon.4782:

You confuse your own point. Heat has nothing to do with the states of matter, though it, along with pressure, can be used to determine what state of matter a given substance will take. But for our discussion, heat is irrelevant.

Stop confusing Heat and Plasma. Heat, aka Infrared, is only one small part of the EM Spectrum, and is NOT, itself, a measure of energy, but a type of energy. Plasma is, technically, the state of matter where it stops being regarded as Matter and starts being regarded as Energy.

Heat is the vibration of particles – not infrared radiation, which is emitted when heat is lost. With next to no heat, all substances would be solid, as the strong nuclear force and electromagnetic force would face little resistance, with the exception of plasma and perhaps heavily ionized particles, which would be repelled from one another due to electromagnetic repulsion, rather than drawn together.

Energy takes many forms – light, heat, kinetic – but plasma is a state of matter as much as solid, liquid, and gas.

Please either provide your sources, which seem rather contrary to the most fundamental aspects of modern science, or study this matter properly before arguing further.

Holy Chemistry and Science Fails Batman!

Fire is a chemical reaction. Lightning is a static electric discharge. The power of lightning can convert some matter that it hits into plasma due to superheating via convection, but lightning itself is not plasma.

While I appreciate the desire for Kaze no Stigma style air magic, or even Avatar style Airbending, in almost any traditional RPG in existence lightning has always been classed as air elementalism. And for good reason, since lightning descends from the sky. It makes sense in terms of logic for a world that has magic, as much as any element would, otherwise nearly all magic would be classed in the Fire element since almost any magical effect can be considered a manipulation of energy states, which Fire, being about energy represents. But that would be boring.

If you want to play Kazuma, just sit in Water Attunement and toss around Vapor Blades. You won’t be very effective, but neither was Kazuma until he entered into a contract with the Wind Spirit King. Actually, THAT would be an interesting way to power up Elementalists. Keep the current system as is, but add in a level 80 Elementalist story quest that allows an Elementalist to enter into a contract with one of the Elemental Kings, greatly enhancing their power in one specific Element. This would allow all Eles to remain effective at a mediocre level as they are now, while allowing them to select a focus to become much more effective in one specific Attunement. Eles who select Arcane as their Focus would eliminate Attunement CDs entirely, and the Recharge rate percentage in the traitline would instead reduce cooldowns of all skills.

That last paragraph sounds almost nightmarish once you pick the wrong king to work with.

Fun stuff though.

Axelifus.3269:

That last paragraph sounds almost nightmarish once you pick the wrong king to work with.

Fun stuff though.

Well, it could take several forms. How about, anytime an Ele wants to change the contract to another King, he simply goes to the Elemental avatar and pays a skill point.

The Eles would still play as they do now, just with enhanced effectiveness in a specific attunement or Arcane traitline/skills.

^You could make it an elite skill. The slot doesn’t see much use anyway.

Frankly, they should revamp the trait lines and separate it from attunements to concepts of the class that can be utilized in ALL attunements. No more X% bonus damage on Y attunement or any of that nonsense.

Force, Entropy, Plasma, etc, whatever.

Lina.9640:

Frankly, they should revamp the trait lines and separate it from attunements to concepts of the class that can be utilized in ALL attunements. No more X% bonus damage on Y attunement or any of that nonsense.

Force, Entropy, Plasma, etc, whatever.

Sounds fun. I can get behind this.

Kaleban.9834:

Holy Chemistry and Science Fails Batman!

Mwahaha! If such didn’t occur it wouldn’t be quite as fun to post :P

But pretty much what Kale and some others said. Lightning itself, isn’t a plasma, only the end process produces it, along with a sonic boom from the flash expansion of air.

Again, Lightning isn’t a plasma, it’s a process which includes the culmination of friction of particles, electrostatic discharges, cold, heat, plasma, air currents, magnetism and sound waves. If we try and narrow down the process to simply the phenomenon of electricity, it’s even further from the element of fire since electricity is even broader and begins to encompass waves on subatomic levels.

As for the topic as a whole, of course Lightning should be in Air! Considering this is all magic, there needs to be a balance of concept to keep each attunement interesting.

Fire = heat, flame, magma, flame manipulation/shaping
Water = water, ice, precipitation (apparently can create clouds and condense them), and water current
Earth = Rock, Dust, seismic vibrations and magnetism
Air = Wind, air currents and electrostatic discharges

Perhaps I’m bias (because Air is my favorite attunement) but Air seems to lack variety in what it domains over. It needs more applications, not less.

I would suggest a few Sound based abilities for Air be added.

Lina.9640:

Frankly, they should revamp the trait lines and separate it from attunements to concepts of the class that can be utilized in ALL attunements. No more X% bonus damage on Y attunement or any of that nonsense.

Force, Entropy, Plasma, etc, whatever.

Sounds interesting, how would it play out though? Take the idea of Force for example, would putting points into it give access to traits that add Knockdown or Launch to your skills, or would that be too OP? Entropy could have traits that add Crippling, Disease or Poison to skills I suppose.

While I do generally like the idea of all the traitlines supporting the Elementalist at all times regardless of specific attunement, I’m unsure how ANet could balance individual skills without a total rework of the profession.

From a scientific perspective, it depends on what is happening to determine which attunement is most appropriate.

If the lightning originates from you, it should be air attunement.
If the lightning originates from the sky, it should be water attunement.