Guild Wars 2

To me it’s nothing more than a noob trap, it amazes me to see how many use it.

Don’t get me wrong, if you get 30 points in earth then sure, it becomes so much better, but no one does that normally.

Why do I think that it’s bad?

1. Situational
The only fast casting elementalist skills are those from D/D, but even then, that’s only the autoattacks. Every other spell usually has a normal cast time or is some sort of channel.

2. The passive and activation heal are ridiculously low.
Healing 200-270 per spell cast is really not a lot, it really amazes me how some staff elementalists can use this signet sometimes. On top of 3300-3600 activation heal… I find it very lackluster. Not to mention the 25 seconds cooldown that cannot be reduced unless you spend 20 points in the earth trait line.

3. Isn’t the glyph much more versatile?
Even if the signet has some advantages in some cases, I still find the glyph to be much better. It’s cooldown can be reduced with only 10 points in the air trait line, it has a much bigger heal (even better if you do it in the water attunement for free 2k+ regen), and it can be useful to get other free boons on demand (ie: swiftness).

The proper use of the signet is waiting until the very end to use it, to ‘abuse’ the 200ish heal per spell cast. But wouldn’t it be the same to take the glyph and use it as soon as you’re down 5k hp, so you can have it back again when you need it? 2 active heals vs. 1, 5500 hp x2 (plus 4k regen if used in water attunement) vs 3300 hp plus 220ish per spell cast, in the span of 40 seconds.

Opinions?

The passive effect from the signet and the healing skills from attunement in d/d are most time enough for me to heal. I rarely use the signet for active effect, only when water #2 and 5# is on cd and my hp is running too dangerously low. But then I have 800-ish in healing power. Even when I equip staff it is rarely I find the need to heal with signet.

while in the water trait line you get some heals that do 100ish per skill cast add perma regen (another 200ish per second) then if you add in the healing signet you get 270ish per skill cast you’ll gain around 500 health per seconds and a few k healing when absolutely necessary.
Another thing is that instead you don’t need to worry about hitting the healing skill at the right time since playing a D/D ele takes alot of skill it kinda lightens the burden when you use the signet of healing you don’t need to worry bout that. All you need to do is swap to water and hit 2 and 5.

paleeshi.1924:

The passive effect from the signet and the healing skills from attunement in d/d are most time enough for me to heal. I rarely use the signet for active effect, only when water #2 and 5# is on cd and my hp is running too dangerously low. But then I have 800-ish in healing power. Even when I equip staff it is rarely I find the need to heal with signet.

So you would take the passive effect over reliable heals?

I don’t get it, I see other classes healing abilities (necro’s 5k + 700 per condition, mesmer’s 5k + 700 per illusion) and I fail to see how 3.3k + 200 per spell is even on par with those.

If I have a 16k health pool, I would rather take the glyph, using it as soon as I hit 10-11k health, instead of taking the signet, and waiting until I have 1k hp or around that to use it.

Because the sooner I use the glyph, the faster it will be off cooldown again!

Oh yeah and not to mention that each time you swap to water you gain health (from 15 trait points in water). That not including regeneration. Also with Evasive Arcana you healed while dodging in water.

I do see where you are coming from but it honestly depends on your spec. I have 0 points in earth and find the signet still to be very effective. With some other builds glyph might work better.

Razor.6392:

So you would take the passive effect over reliable heals?

I have 4 reliable heals (water attunement, dodge in water, and 2 heals in water in d/d)

I don’t get it, I see other classes healing abilities (necro’s 5k + 700 per condition, mesmer’s 5k + 700 per illusion) and I fail to see how 3.3k + 200 per spell is even on par with those.

Fair enough, but we don’t have such heals that provide extra heal per clone or condition. And the signet heals for roughly 330 per tick in my case.

If I have a 16k health pool, I would rather take the glyph, using it as soon as I hit 10-11k health, instead of using the signet, and waiting until I have 1k hp or around that to use it.

Because the sooner I use the glyph, the faster it will be off cooldown again!

It’s a matter of playstyle. I start healing at roughly 50%-60% through water attunement and it’s skills. But as I said, it’s not many situation I find that I need to use the active heal so.

I imagine this is probably why it’s getting nerfed but I pretty much NEVER use my heal since the regen it provides and what I have going on with water attune (d/d) cover me.

So honestly, it’s the best heal of the bunch for d/d, easily (since the others don’t have a passive effect and I’m already swimming in boons)

I definitely agree with OP. Regarding the 25 CD (20 if traited), the effect is still medium.
Not a crap skill per ser, but other heals are better. Glyph offers boons (protection is nice !) AND more synergy with glyph traits, same CD, better heal.
Personally, I use Ether Renewal (playing PVE) as this heal skill is so much OP compared to the 2 other options : much better CD (15 sec), pulses so you may use it before the troubles (soft slow healing) AND removes lots of conditions at the same time.
The 3 heal skills are defintely not balanced, it’s still better than the 2 others (even traited).
I think the reaction will be a nerf to ether renewal instead of buffing the 2 others unfortunately :/

And to all those saying that the signet + soothing aura + evasive arcana water dodge provides you with so much healing per second… why not try the same but this time with glyph? You don’t have to change your spec.

1. It’s not “only” the autoattacks that are fast casting. Ring of Fire, Frozen Burst, Frost Aura, Shock Aura, Ride the Lightning, Updraft, Magnetic Grasp…ALL have a 1/2 sec cast time or less…add in the autoattacks from Fire/Air/Water…And you’ll notice that half of our skills have a very fast cast time.

2. With my spec, the passive of the signet heals for 280 per cast. The glyph heals for 5,479 over 25 seconds. That means, per second, the glyph heals for about 219 hp. If you add in the regen I get from the water glyph heal, it comes out to 346 per second. Which is still easily outhealed from the Signet passive.

3. Since a lot of D/D builds run either 0/10/0/30/30 or 0/0/10/30/30, it’d be gimping their builds by dropping either earth, or zephyr’s boon, in order to get 5 seconds off of a glyph heal. These builds have PERMA swiftness, and have no need for any other sources of it.

I’ve tried all 3 healing spells as D/D, and the signet just makes me much more sustainable. Ether renewal is nice…but that’s 3 seconds I’m not dealing damage to my enemy. The fact that I can passively heal and not have to worry about another skill is golden.

Razor.6392:

And to all those saying that the signet + soothing aura + evasive arcana water dodge provides you with so much healing per second… why not try the same but this time with glyph? You don’t have to change your spec.

Uh, you still don’t get it? Why do I need to you see the glyph if I don’t use an active heal skill? The big advantage of signet of restoration is not it’s active effect but the passive effect.

Let me simplify it for you. The glyph has 25sec cd, now let’s see how much passive healing you can do in that same time with signet.

For the simplicity let us just use #1 fire skill.
0,5sec channel + 1 sec cast time. That gives us 16.666666… casts during these same 25 sec. Now with 800 healing power I get about 320 heals per tick with signet.
16×320=5760.
Now you’ll see that I’ve passively healed myself during these same 25sec for about as same amount as glyph would have with healing power, if not even more. Now on top on that take all the other healing abilities I’ve mentioned. Now If I really need I could also use the extra 3000+++ heal from the active signet.

The glyph is not worse, nor better, it’s just situational. If you run a glass canon build you might find that you need to get your hp up as quick as possible. While me running PVT gear, I know how much hits I can take (depending on situation of course) and I know that the passive healing is going to keep me safe together with the other healing abilities.

Basically I’m doing the same thing as you but instead I’m healing myself overtime while you prefer to get an instant heal.

Tupac.4786:

1. It’s not “only” the autoattacks that are fast casting. Ring of Fire, Frozen Burst, Frost Aura, Shock Aura, Ride the Lightning, Updraft, Magnetic Grasp…ALL have a 1/2 sec cast time or less…add in the autoattacks from Fire/Air/Water…And you’ll notice that half of our skills have a very fast cast time.

2. With my spec, the passive of the signet heals for 280 per cast. The glyph heals for 5,479 over 25 seconds. That means, per second, the glyph heals for about 219 hp. If you add in the regen I get from the water glyph heal, it comes out to 346 per second. Which is still easily outhealed from the Signet passive.

3. Since a lot of D/D builds run either 0/10/0/30/30 or 0/0/10/30/30, it’d be gimping their builds by dropping either earth, or zephyr’s boon, in order to get 5 seconds off of a glyph heal. These builds have PERMA swiftness, and have no need for any other sources of it.

I’ve tried all 3 healing spells as D/D, and the signet just makes me much more sustainable. Ether renewal is nice…but that’s 3 seconds I’m not dealing damage to my enemy. The fact that I can passively heal and not have to worry about another skill is golden.

Sure, they can have a 1/2 second cast, but their windup takes even longer than that.

The distance you travel in RTL
The fire and ice breath channels
Updraft wastes like 1.5 seconds going backwards

Matter of fact is, that even on the best ideal circumstances, you are NOT healing every 1/2 seconds or every 1 second, using the signet passive.

Razor.6392:

Sure, they can have a 1/2 second cast, but their windup takes even longer than that.

The distance you travel in RTL
The fire and ice breath channels
Updraft wastes like 1.5 seconds going backwards

Matter of fact is, that even on the best ideal circumstances, you are NOT healing every 1/2 seconds or every 1 second, using the signet passive.

read my post above. it calculates for passive healing each 1.5sec during 25 sec time. Now If you still think that’s pathetic, then I’m not gonna try convincing you any longer of it’s usefulness.

OR, you don’t use the signet and the glyph and you actually use our most effective and useful heal, Ether Renewal.

It’s not the most effective. It can easily be interrupted and the cool down will go off since it’s a 3 1/2 sec channeling skill. Not to mention that during those 4 sec you cannot use any other skills.

I hope the Signet heal is nerfed so the countless Ele rerollers who use that and stack Healing gear will stop playing the Elementalist.

Tired of being a FOTM class.

PS: Ether Renewal is superior~

You guys are going to have to quantify what situations you’re talking about for these skills. Because I can tell you the PVE I do doesn’t require a 3 condition removal active, I get everything dangerous off me just through the water swaps and get plenty of healing through water (this is with 0 healing gear btw).

paleeshi.1924:

It’s not the most effective. It can easily be interrupted and the cool down will go off since it’s a 3 1/2 sec channeling skill. Not to mention that during those 4 sec you cannot use any other skills.

In theory and maybe against a very attentive opponent. I mainly WvW and there you can get a ton of conditions on you real quick – this spell eats them up which is much better than what others do.
I also can’t remember being interrupted once. If there is a danger of that, just combine with Mist Form.

Short cooldown also means you can use it early and often, with Glyph you have to wait for your health to get lower and are in danger of wasting it if you misjudge timing, so Renewal is more forgiving in that regard. Plus, to get the full effect of the Glyph, you have to switch to water, which may not always be advisable. And of course you have to dedicate a trait to make the cooldown optimal, which is still longer than Renewal’s.

With Renewal you can use it early, then use water heals to keep your HP up, then Renewal is coming again out of cooldown, so it works nicely with our other heals.

Glyph seems good only if you have high healing power, so you can afford to let your HP drop low before using it. If you want to have some actual kick to your playstyle, then you have to go for a heal which allows for more frequent usage / doesn’t require traits dedicated to healing.

I agree with razor for the most part. I view the glyph as superior in most cases. I might even go as far as saying it is mathematically and objectively superior. The only argument to be made in favor of the signet is that it provides nice sustained, but the same can be said for the regeneration from the glyph. Plus, sustained healing from regeneration is more reliable than having to use a skill. If you’re being stunned, generally harassed or have to go on the defensive for any reason, your healing from the signet passive is going to be reduced. Just because the signet passive can outheal the glyph in theory doesn’t mean that it will in practice. Plus, this will remove a condition with the appropriate trait.

Plus, the glyph is more versatile and useful for triggering any “on heal” effects from runes (which I use). I heal myself and allies for an extra 1k or so (not amazing but 1k hp can save your life) when I use the glyph. A heal that discourages being activated would get significantly less benefit from that.

paleeshi.1924:

For the simplicity let us just use #1 fire skill.
0,5sec channel + 1 sec cast time. That gives us 16.666666… casts during these same 25 sec. Now with 800 healing power I get about 320 heals per tick with signet.
16×320=5760.

Unless of course you get stunned, dazed, knocked down, want to revive an ally, you get confused and have to stop spamming momentarily or anything else happens that prevents you from using skills. The glyph will heal for about 5400-5500 hp at 800 healing power. Regeneration will heal for 2300 with no boon duration. The total healing from the glyph is higher in most situations because you don’t have to make a choice between sustained or instant healing and boon removal is much more rare than being interrupted. If you’re already stacking very long regeneration boons with soothing disruption or something, I could see a better reason for using the signet. However, it could still be argued that the glyph can give protection.

Tei.1704:

If you’re being stunned, generally harassed or have to go on the defensive for any reason, your healing from the signet passive is going to be reduced.

This, I can’t believe I forgot to bring it up.

You cannot proc heals while dodging, while dazed, stunned, etc.

Razor.6392:

Tei.1704:

If you’re being stunned, generally harassed or have to go on the defensive for any reason, your healing from the signet passive is going to be reduced.

This, I can’t believe I forgot to bring it up.

You cannot proc heals while dodging, while dazed, stunned, etc.

Actually you can get passive effect from dodge if you have evasive arcana, since it also cast a skill. now it’s only each 10th second, but still.

as for the rest, same can be said about glyph. channeling glyph heal is pretty easy to spot and can be easely interrupted. I do this a lot to spvp eles who use the glyph to heal up. now it’s only pvp situation, but still.

and also, if you get disabled for for 3-4 sec, you miss out maybe 600-800 of passive healing, while if you interrupt the glyph you miss out 5500 of active heal.

Reading this discussion is just making me even more indecisive. lol

I forgot an other thing. You can heal yourself even without attacking an actual target, so you can be defensive, running away while casting say air #1.

zTales.4392:

Reading this discussion is just making me even more indecisive. lol

True men don’t use Signet in WvW.

Intigo.1653:

zTales.4392:

Reading this discussion is just making me even more indecisive. lol

True men don’t use Signet in WvW.

Good thing then that I am female. Or would you imply that I am a worse player because I’m not a guy? :P

Intigo.1653:

zTales.4392:

Reading this discussion is just making me even more indecisive. lol

True men don’t use Signet in WvW.

Like Paleeshi, I am also a female. Therefore your statement does not help my decision. XD

True Elementalists don’t use Signet in WvW! And no, I’m sure both of you are excellent!

Intigo.1653:

True Elementalists don’t use Signet in WvW! And no, I’m sure both of you are excellent!

Woo! XD

I wouldn’t use it in WvW. Sometimes you’re running or supporting more than you are attacking. :/ PvE is what I’m confused about.

P.S. I didn’t take what you said as an insult anyway. :>

With the glyph + inscription, I’m capable of getting max duration protection for myself with the proper set-up. I find that a bit better than aiming for the extra regen from water attunement. Use the swap for whatever bit of regen you may need.

The glyph is really versatile in that respect plus it can trigger on-heal food and runes which make it even more versatile for a variety of builds. I don’t really run the FotM d/d build so maybe the signet is better but I always found it sub-standard for me.

And considering I like to pick Air traits, it can make the glyph (and all the other glyphs) much better for me.

That said, I still find Ether Renewal better than either despite not having any traits to support it. I almost wish ER was a conjure or something so support traits would give it more versatility. In the instances where I need a heal + condition removal that glyph+food can’t cover (and because I don’t just hurr/durr 30water/30arcane) then ER will handle it in spades.

paleeshi.1924:

Actually you can get passive effect from dodge if you have evasive arcana, since it also cast a skill. now it’s only each 10th second, but still.

as for the rest, same can be said about glyph. channeling glyph heal is pretty easy to spot and can be easely interrupted. I do this a lot to spvp eles who use the glyph to heal up. now it’s only pvp situation, but still.

and also, if you get disabled for for 3-4 sec, you miss out maybe 600-800 of passive healing, while if you interrupt the glyph you miss out 5500 of active heal.

It is not exactly the same. For the signet, every single crowd control used on you while the passive is up will decrease your overall healing. The glyph gives enemies a mere second long window to interrupt. The same logic applies to poison. The bulk of the glyph heal happens in 1 second. If poison isn’t on you at that exact moment, the healing reduction doesn’t matter regarding the glyph. Every single time you’re poisoned while using a skill decreases the healing from the signet.

I’m just going to say that in my experience most enemies don’t watch for my glyph to interrupt it. I think most people don’t think that way because eles have other heals to fall back on. They probably think it’s better to save cc’s for a burst combo or something. If someone interrupts my heal on purpose, I’m fighting someone competent. Anybody can make the signet less effective with completely random interrupts. I’d rather use the heal that is countered by thought, timing and skill as opposed to using a skill on cooldown. Plus, you’re not really missing out on a 5500 heal, the heal is simply being delayed. You only completely miss it when you die before you have the chance to activate it again. If you use the glyph sooner rather than later, you can mitigate the effects of being interrupted and potentially use it at a time your enemy wasn’t prepared for. Also, I’ve only been talking about this from a pvp (I consider wvw to be pvp) perspective.

Tei.1704:

paleeshi.1924:

Actually you can get passive effect from dodge if you have evasive arcana, since it also cast a skill. now it’s only each 10th second, but still.

as for the rest, same can be said about glyph. channeling glyph heal is pretty easy to spot and can be easely interrupted. I do this a lot to spvp eles who use the glyph to heal up. now it’s only pvp situation, but still.

and also, if you get disabled for for 3-4 sec, you miss out maybe 600-800 of passive healing, while if you interrupt the glyph you miss out 5500 of active heal.

It is not exactly the same. For the signet, every single crowd control used on you while the passive is up will decrease your overall healing. The glyph gives enemies a mere second long window to interrupt. The same logic applies to poison. The bulk of the glyph heal happens in 1 second. If poison isn’t on you at that exact moment, the healing reduction doesn’t matter regarding the glyph. Every single time you’re poisoned while using a skill decreases the healing from the signet.

I’m just going to say that in my experience most enemies don’t watch for my glyph to interrupt it. I think most people don’t think that way because eles have other heals to fall back on. They probably think it’s better to save cc’s for a burst combo or something. If someone interrupts my heal on purpose, I’m fighting someone competent. Anybody can make the signet less effective with completely random interrupts. I’d rather use the heal that is countered by thought, timing and skill as opposed to using a skill on cooldown. Plus, you’re not really missing out on a 5500 heal, the heal is simply being delayed. You only completely miss it when you die before you have the chance to activate it again. If you use the glyph sooner rather than later, you can mitigate the effects of being interrupted and potentially use it at a time your enemy wasn’t prepared for. Also, I’ve only been talking about this from a pvp (I consider wvw to be pvp) perspective.

Couldn’t have said it better myself.

zTales.4392:

Intigo.1653:

True Elementalists don’t use Signet in WvW! And no, I’m sure both of you are excellent!

Woo! XD

P.S. I didn’t take what you said as an insult anyway. :>

Good, I didn’t expect you to either.

And heh, the forum automatically removed my “d’ it” at the start of my post. ArenaNet takes their clean forums very seriously.

For PvE I still wouldn’t want to use the Signet simply because an on demand heal is so much more valuable when you really need it. Most PvE is so easy that it doesn’t matter that much, though.

@Tei: If you have 10 ppl CCing you, then it won’t matter if you have glyph or signet. What you do is get the hell out of there. Either that or you get CCed to death that you won’t even be able to do anything.

If you go really small scale 1v1/2/3 it’s really only a limited amount of CC that a class has.
Ele is a mobile class, and I’m constantly moving, it’s not that easy to get CC:ed, especially if you go against melee classes. And you have a lot of vigor regen (at least my build does).
You also take only one situation into account (CC in pvp) as if it would be crucial to which heal skill should be used.

I already said that, the skill is dependent on situation, build, gear, weapon set even and playstyle. I think my arguments have been pretty fair, yet you and OP refuse to recognize signet as a viable option.

I can say I’ve played ele both with glyph and signet and I’ve settled down with the signet, at least for now. I have learned how to play my spec and I’m not afraid to go down to 25%-50% health, while utilizing water attunement and timing with other skills. I know when I won’t be able to out stand any longer and need to get away. If you prefer a safe instant heal, that’s fine. Both has their procs and cons. However you both seem not want to recognize the procs from the signet. If I still haven’t convinced you that it’s a viable heal, then I don’t think I can say anything else that will.

paleeshi.1924:

@Tei: If you have 10 ppl CCing you, then it won’t matter if you have glyph or signet. What you do is get the hell out of there. Either that or you get CCed to death that you won’t even be able to do anything.

If you go really small scale 1v1/2/3 it’s really only a limited amount of CC that a class has.
Ele is a mobile class, and I’m constantly moving, it’s not that easy to get CC:ed, especially if you go against melee classes. And you have a lot of vigor regen (at least my build does).
You also take only one situation into account (CC in pvp) as if it would be crucial to which heal skill should be used.

I already said that, the skill is dependent on situation, build, gear, weapon set even and playstyle. I think my arguments have been pretty fair, yet you and OP refuse to recognize signet as a viable option.

I can say I’ve played ele both with glyph and signet and I’ve settled down with the signet, at least for now. I have learned how to play my spec and I’m not afraid to go down to 25%-50% health, while utilizing water attunement and timing with other skills. I know when I won’t be able to out stand any longer and need to get away. If you prefer a safe instant heal, that’s fine. Both has their procs and cons. However you both seem not want to recognize the procs from the signet. If I still haven’t convinced you that it’s a viable heal, then I don’t think I can say anything else that will.

I’m not saying it’s not viable lol, it’s just that for the amount of signet users (pretty much every ele in spvp) it makes it seem like glyph was ridiculously bad in comparison, when it’s just as good, if not better in certain builds.

It is sad that you need so many points in earth to get it to work. Written in Stone is mandatory, imho.

An improvement would be to remove the Written in Stone trait, making the passive effects work all the time, that way more diverse builds would be possible, and you only have to invest 10 points in earth for lower CD. If they also moved it to the fire tree, it would be interesting.

But hey, just wishful thinking on my side.

I never really use signets, because I lose a LOT of mobility by using signets, and not stun breaking/condition removing cantrips. You simply die way too fast by using signets, which require 30 earth (you definitely want the passive effects on heal, condition removal etc.), making you WANT to have at least 20 water for the healing, thereby forcing you into a very weak offensive build, which in my oppinion isn’t any fun. Currently I feel that you need at least 10 points in arcane, and then you already spent most points on primarily defensive trees. Must be tough to be a dev, opening up for new builds without making certain combinations too strong..

Good luck, Jon & Jon.

Malcastus.6240:

It is sad that you need so many points in earth to get it to work. Written in Stone is mandatory, imho.

An improvement would be to remove the Written in Stone trait, making the passive effects work all the time, that way more diverse builds would be possible, and you only have to invest 10 points in earth for lower CD. If they also moved it to the fire tree, it would be interesting.

But hey, just wishful thinking on my side.

I never really use signets, because I lose a LOT of mobility by using signets, and not stun breaking/condition removing cantrips. You simply die way too fast by using signets, which require 30 earth (you definitely want the passive effects on heal, condition removal etc.), making you WANT to have at least 20 water for the healing, thereby forcing you into a very weak offensive build, which in my oppinion isn’t any fun. Currently I feel that you need at least 10 points in arcane, and then you already spent most points on primarily defensive trees. Must be tough to be a dev, opening up for new builds without making certain combinations too strong..

Good luck, Jon & Jon.

Actually, there would be no reason NOT to take the signet everytime lol, it would be OP.

Malcastus.6240:

An improvement would be to remove the Written in Stone trait, making the passive effects work all the time, that way more diverse builds would be possible, and you only have to invest 10 points in earth for lower CD. If they also moved it to the fire tree, it would be interesting.

That sort of defeats the whole concept of signets though. Signets across all professions have a passive effect when unused and an active one you gain by sacrificing the passive effect for a time. Only elementalist are capable of keeping the passive effect regardless.

But then perhaps I’m just thinking too logically about the ability type’s concept. It’s basically like having a marked symbol with you and you give that symbol power by believing in it and keeping it with you. Using it, you’re basically throwing away your symbol for momentary power, which is why I’ve never really cared much for signets on any profession.

I actually like the idea behind signets in general and use them fairly often on classes. The way I see it unless you’re using an ability on cooldown, there might be a signet that gives you greater benefit (as the passive effect is something a typical skill lacks).

Such is the case with the heal. I don’t need to cure 3 conditions regularly, or find myself needing yet another weak version of a boon I already have tons of. But the passive heal…yea I can make use of that.

Don’t think it would be OP, but open up possibilities. Anet is intending to fiddle with ele healing anyway. The signets would still retain their achilles heel, as they do not have stun break, you defintely need that in PvP as an ele (water signet does remove one condition every ten secs though, but nothing you can rely on kicking in when needed). People would be more inclined to use a mix of utility skills, as I see it. And why not let all professions enjoy the benefits of the passive side.. ? (hides)

The passive or active abilities could be toned down a notch, although they wouldn’t be worth losing stun break + regen/condition removal + vigor for. They could become more appealing. That is just my oppinion, seen from a PvP perspective.

When using them, I find myself slow and vulnerable. Even with a cantrip as a backup, you can only evade a certain number of snares and without mobility, you squishiness becomes more apparent.

I wish they would take a look at the signets again, and ponder the active sides of them. Perhaps making them a tad more interesting. The fire one has a nice passive, but the active.. well. Every weapon set can set things ablaze easily, although not always from that distance and so easily.

By the way, it was just wishful thinking on my behalf as I stated earlier. Don’t kill me!

The other side of signets are their traits though. I think that’s rather the point of them. There are extra little positives you can build toward to improve your or their individual performance.

Elementalist’s trait to make signets passives always on is a big plus for their passive effects and why it’s a Grandmaster trait…but then you also have traits like Fire’s embrace that gives you extra effects for casting signets.

There’s others like getting precision for each unused signet, or getting distortion from using signets which all tie into their performance. Other trait lines aren’t so lucky to have supporting traits like those. I mean, what about Transforms? Those are pitiful no matter what and no traits to help…I’d actually suggest, at least for elementalist, that Mist Form be converted to a Transform utility and then gain some sort of trait to improve them (longer transformation duration, additional skills/stats while transformed, etc).

Switch attunement counts as 1 skill. Dodge while having Evasive Arcana counts as 2 skills. Flame blast from sigil counts as 1 skills. Each of the lv 15 minor trais might count as 1 skill but I am not so sure about that. Overall, Signet provides very good sustain that stacks with Regen. If you use glyph on Water, the regen duration is extended but the intensity is not. Signet is better when you have another burst heal options.

Vanillea.5764:

Switch attunement counts as 1 skill. Dodge while having Evasive Arcana counts as 2 skills. Flame blast from sigil counts as 1 skills. Each of the lv 15 minor trais might count as 1 skill but I am not so sure about that. Overall, Signet provides very good sustain that stacks with Regen. If you use glyph on Water, the regen duration is extended but the intensity is not. Signet is better when you have another burst heal options.

Use the glyph in earth then. Stacked mitigation (i.e. a variety of boons) is better than putting all your eggs in one basket anyway.

paleeshi.1924:

@Tei: If you have 10 ppl CCing you, then it won’t matter if you have glyph or signet. What you do is get the hell out of there. Either that or you get CCed to death that you won’t even be able to do anything.

You also take only one situation into account (CC in pvp) as if it would be crucial to which heal skill should be used.

If 10 people are using cc on me, I can mist form and use the glyph without sacrificing
regeneration for 25 seconds.

I’m talking about cc mostly because the argument that the signet passive heals for more assumes ideal conditions, constantly using skills. There are very common things that can lower your overall skill usage, so the signet is not as reliably powerful as the glyph. The signet is theoretically more powerful, but the glyph is going be more powerful in practice. Honestly, I feel like going with a heal that is only powerful under ideal conditions is illogical. If you are doing well enough to spam skills for maximum signet healing, you’d likely survive the encounter regardless of the heal you used.

Also, “viable” simply means that something works. Something can be viable and objectively inferior to other options at the same time. The signet is viable and competitive, but the glyph is just a little bit better in the vast majority of situations.

Here’s the math for everyone:

• Signet heals for 202 per cast (scales with 10% of healing power), or ~202 hps if the player casts once per second (best case scenario).
• Glyph heals for 4894 every 25 seconds (scales with 75% of healing power), or ~195 hps without taking into account the buffs you get.

With ~300 healing power, signet heals for 232 per spell-cast and glyph heals for 5,119 every 25 seconds, or ~232 hps for signet and ~204 hps for the glyph. As you can see, the signet scales much better with healing power than the glyph does. In order for the glyph to be better than the signet the buffs from the glyph would need to be worth about 700 total health every 25 seconds. I’ll be doing all boon analysis below assuming the ele has 300 healing power. The glyph becomes better the less healing power a character has and signet becomes better the more healing power the character has, so keep that in mind. 300 healing power is a nice middle ground and most eles do have 300 healing power anyways (from 30 water).

The fire (might) buff is a single stack of might that lasts 20 seconds (25 seconds with 30 arcane). A single stack of might is about a 1.2% increase in effective damage. At bare minimum this might stack will have an 80% uptime (20/25), which is a .96% total damage increase (1.2% x .8) That would mean an ele would need to do 2,889 total DPS (700/25=28; 100/.96=104.17; 104.17×28=2,917; 2917-28=2,889) for this single stack of might to increase damage output by 700 every 25 seconds (or 28 dps). Most eles are doing between 2k and 4k dps (depends on gear/spec), so we can say that this single might stack is worth ~28dps, or at least equal to the 28hps more that signet heals. This is the only heal that increases your damage output and there’s a lot of circumstances where you don’t need more healing but extra damage is useful (easy bosses, trash, WvW zergs).

The water (regeneration) buff heals for 1675 health over 10 seconds every 25 seconds with 0 boon duration. With +30% boon duration (30 arcane), it heals for 2178. So the more boon duration a player has the better this becomes. With 0 boon duration it comes out to 67 hps (1675/25), with +30% boon duration it’s 87 hps (2178/25). As you can see, this is much higher than the additional 28 hps a player would get from using the signet over the glyph.

The air (swiftness) buff is extremely situational. I can certainly see it being worth way more than 28hps in a lot of circumstances (for example, when kiting mobs, running out of aoe/attacks or running past mobs). It’s also very nice to use out of combat, especially in pvp when you’re getting chased and you will get killed if you don’t out-run them.

The earth (protection) buff gives 33% damage reduction for 3s (4s with 30 arcane). In order for this to be worth more than ~28 hps (or 700hp every 25 seconds), you would need to take 2100 damage while the protection boon is up. Nearly every mob hits for more than 2100 just on regular auto-attacks. Boss attacks can do upwards of 10k. If used with proper timing (for example, when rooted so you can’t dodge a hard-hitting attack or right before you know you’re going to take a lot of damage), this is worth at least that 28hps and potentially way more (up to 100 + hps-worth of damage reduction is very possible). Also, since protection stacks in duration, you will be adding 3s to your 4s protection you get from swapping into earth.

Also, keep in mind:

• Since most eles have at least 25 points into water, each of these boons contribute to the 2% increased damage you get from each unique boon. The earth (protection) boon is one you won’t have up most of the time, so it’s at the very least a 2% increase in damage for 3s/4s. Swiftness is another boon you might not have up all the time, so that’s at the very least a 2% increase in damage for 10 seconds.

• Lastly, glyph is also a burst heal, the signet is a sustained heal. Burst heals have much more value than lower sustained heals because they put you out of the danger-zone quickly. For example, if you get bursted to 40% of your health and then you’re about to get bursted again for 60% of your max health (so this hit would kill you), you can use your burst heal to heal up to ~90% hp and survive that hit. You would die if you were using signet, even if you used the active (and using the active basically removes all future potential healing you’d receive, so then you’re as good as dead in a lot of circumstances).

TL’;DR: The glyph is ALWAYS better at 0 healing power. The glyph is potentially significantly better than the signet if you use the buffs it gives properly. The signet is only better at extremely high healing power (i.e., 900+ healing power), and even then the glyph might be better because of the burst healing it gives and the boons are still very good, maybe still better than the higher sustained healing signet gives, if used at the proper times.

Here is my perspective on why I use signet of restoration vs. glyph of elemental harmony vs. ether renewal. I am not going use in depth calculations here as it would take too long, just my intuition / experiences

Staff does not utilize signet of restoration at all effectively, due to the long cast times of its auto attacks and drawback animations. In addition, you are actually encouraged to utilize your auto attacks much more frequently than D/D (especially in fire attunement) at least from a PvE perspective. In addition, you have longer cast times among other spells as well, such as meteor shower and earth 2. For staff, I usually run ether renewal for PvE and WvWvW. Staff to my knowledge is not used in sPvP a whole lot, glyph may be favorable if you don’t want to get interupted.

In a D/D standpoint, your cast times are much more shorter. Note that your play style should focus only on water attunement when seriously needed. Instances where you should utilize water attunement swapping is when your hp is 50~75% (so you can EA water dodge roll + heal from water attunement swapping), removing conditions such as immobilization right before a shatter spike is going to occur, etc. Knowing when or when not to to swap to water attunement and when to utilize auto attacks from other attunements distinguishes bad elementalists from good ones. The utility skill 6 provides another alternative method of healing to prevent using water attunement spells / swaps. This could be SoR, GoEH, or ether renewal as mentioned earlier.

It all depends on what you want, and who your enemy is.

1. Is your enemy burst oriented and can interupt effectively? Then you don’t want ether renewal, b/c it has an obvious long animation that is easy to counter. You would go for glyph of elemental harmony
2/ Does your enemy focus mainly on conditions? Then you might want ether renewal, and utilize LoS to prevent interuptions
3. Do you need a frequent high burst heal? This applies most to PvE, where ether renewal shines the most
4. Are you focused only on killing your enemies, and dishing out as much damage as possible? Then go Signet of restoration
5. Are you a staff elementalist?
Don’t go signet of restoration, go with the other 2.
6. Are you playing competetive PvP?
Your not going get a lot of spells off with signet of restoration, because teams coordinate spike efforts onto you, and you have to jump in and out of battle (aka you need burst healing options more).

Specifically with signet of restoration, there are some advantages of using it over other spells. As mentioned earlier, swapping to water is meant mainly for a burst / condition removal /situational heal, and the utility 6 should provide an alternative healing method so you have more options in combat (and therefore more chances to win).

Before talking about how effective SoR is comparitvely to other spells, let’s take a look at how many spells you can get from SoR. I will assume the 0/10/0/30/30 setup or 0/15/0/25/30 variation that most elementalist use, with evasive arcana as one of its traits.

Spells are broken down to 3 forms:
Attunement swapping counts as 1 spell
Each unique evasive arcana roll is 1 spell
Casting a spell to the full duration is 1 spell (i.e. cancelling fire2 early does not count).

I am not going to figure out the theory and math behind everything. I will make some assumptions:

Lets use signet of elemental harmony and signet of restoration as a comparison. Both have CD’s of 25 seconds. Lets also assume that you do not cast signet of restoration whatsoever, because that is a last resort.

I am going to estimate that following averages for spells cast with SoR:
I timed myself in 25seconds on just randomly casting spells and combos that felt natural to me.

I got an average value of 21 spells casted without the use of Arcana wave or arcane blast
I got an average value of 11 attunement swaps + dodge rolls

Thats a total of 32 spells casted. Obviously this is not always the case, and the realistic value is somewhere ~28 spells due to enemy interuptions, vigor + more dodges, less/more attunement swaps due to various situations, running away, etc). It could at the same time go up to ~36 spells as well due to utility skills such as arcane blast and wave and maximized attunement swapping.

Healing power is at 360 (its always at least 300 if your running 0/10/0/30/30). Lets assume the 360 healing power case though

My hp per signet of restoration is at ~240. Signet of restoration active is at ~3.4k
My hp per glyph of elemental harmony is at ~5.1k heal. Regeneration at 13 seconds (no boon duration armor) (~ 2.3k healing). Assume that you will only cast glyph of elemental harmony in either water or earth.

Scenarios:
Case 1
You are fighting 1 good player or several mediocre players and you are able to effectively get ~32 casts per 25 seconds.

SoR: 32×240 = 7680
GoEH: 5100 +optional 2300

Case 2:
You are fighting 2 high tiered competent PvP players. Assume this is a worst case scenario, and your 32 spells are halved to 16, and that you have to run, utilize LoS heavily, and get interupted extremely heavily.

SoR: 16×240= 3840
GoEH: 5100+2300

Case 3
My general case scenario in WvWvW and PvE. I rush in into a large zerg army and rambo (10-20 people, culling issues, underleveled players, clueless people, etc.)

SoR: 28×240=6720
GoEH: 5300+2100

Conclusion:
Glyph of elemental harmony can outheal SoR only if your using it under water attunement (you would only use GoEH in earth attunement elsewise as a D/D elementalist). You don’t want to blow off all GoEH in water attunement all of the time, because this makes you vulnerable to instagib burst attacks since ALMOST ALL your healing is on CD. In addition. In addition, GoEH has a long CD, and is only best for burst situations (lots of hit + run). Its regeneration is useful because it scales with additional boon duration gear, and because you do not utilize water attunement all the time so that the regeneration is optimized.

Signet of restoration pairs well with a playstyle oriented in using water attunement for burst healing, and SoR as a passive healing mitigation. Your also given the option to utilize its active in case you do need to run and heal, much like the bursting options as a GoEH has. SoR’s passive is not interuptable either, and you do not need to worry about overhealing either unlike that of GoEH (meaning GoEH scales in effectiveness from vitality). SoR allows you to draw out battles longer as well, making kiting much more effective. In addition, you can also freecast SoR while running away to utilize additional healing effects, and use it’s active to burst heal if needed.

SoR is generally almost always better for situations that you do not have to worry about bursting. This is mainly in easy PvE situations, and most sustained WvWvW situations because most people are not top tiered players. Glyph of elemental harmony shines in burst situations, where you are fighting competent teams and need to run / heal often. Glyph of elemental harmony is also superior to signet of restoration underwater, due to an effective reduction cast time to 1/2 second.

I did not do a comparison to ether renewal because that would take too long. Ether renewal is better than glyph of elemental harmony in PvE by a long shot (especially fractals), due to its effectiveness in healing output. WvWvW and tPvP its situational because it can be interupted while you are casting it, making it less useful.

Tl;dr
Signet of restoration is better in most cases as a D/D or S/D elementalist, but is bad for staff elementalist. Glyph of elemental harmony / ether renewal are good for staff elementalists, and when burst heal options are needed (tPvP situations, hit and run, burst thieves, etc)

Daphoenix has spoken. o.o

Playing D/D sure seems complicated… having the right healing skill is such a long debate it makes me glad I went Staff instead.

For the record, I use Healing Seed on staff – allows me to create a regen field at target area which is just another way I can support tanks during important fights while other skills are on CD.

I’m not a fan of glyph at all. I liked using signet, but recently I’ve started running ER because it heals for the most spike hp on activation, has a 15 second cooldown and clears 3 conditions (if I’m not interrupted, which is a matter of timing it right and movement really). This means I was able to drop points from water and put them into air for +20% damage vs opponents 33%hp and under, along with 10 in earth for protection on aura use since I have great condi removal between cleansing fire and my heal without needing the water line anymore.

Of course this is in WuvWuv where I’m not trapped in tiny shoebox of a stand in the circle gamestyle and can actually use terrain and freedom of movement to control the flow of fights as well.