Guild Wars 2

It isn’t bad at all and pretty strong trait. The problem is that it is passive BUT it is strong and isn’t worthless against power classes.

First I tried it out with apothecary and runes of the noble. Celestial trinkets, Cav backpiece. A kind of hybrid but focused more on condition damage. Condition damage builds on ele isn’t my cup of tea but it worked pretty good. My damage was ok with burns being the main damage. I found that it took to long to kill though.

Then I tried it in my full clerics armor w/ boon duration runes again all celestial trinkets. Changed my food from condition to power and the truffle steak (pow,pre). Ran into a P/D thief and S/S bow Warrior and killed them both was kind of funny.

They grabbed a power thief to help them and it was to much for me but I could kite all day long and forced both thieves to back off killed the warrior. The D/P thief was pretty screwed because blackpowder is important opener for d/p thieves with the blinds but I was immune and by time he came out of stealth he took to much damage to try to stay on me and attack.

My verdict is that it is a pretty decent trait for sure. Not totally useless against power builds staying above 90% isn’t hard with rock solid. I would say celestial trinkets work very well with it. Your 300 points into the condition damage line, toughness isn’t a problem if your 30 in Earth so celestial works pretty good take stone splinters to help with damage. Ill try it again in my power armor but I don’t think the trait is weak at all.

It is probably the best troll trait in the game though for sure. I was dueling a necro that is very very good and I kind of felt bad because he didn’t stand any chance at all. I just ran through everything. We dueled again and he went lich mode which definitely will break you below 90% quickly even on a condi necro.

I’d say proper use of the trait is to remember to stay above 90% as best you can if a condition damage class is in the fight like necro or engi. If facing power just play normally the trait still helps combat blinds, cripples immobilizes etc.

So you say the trait is good because you killed 3 people in total while using it? What if I tell you that you could’ve killed them even faster without this trait?

Gorni.1764:

So you say the trait is good because you killed 3 people in total while using it? What if I tell you that you could’ve killed them even faster without this trait?

This should be fun please tell me how I could have killed a P/D perplexity theif and S/S long bow warrior faster without the trait.

Then I will tell you how every trait you took that doesn’t increase dps would have killed them faster.

Do you tell everyone with points in arcana the same thing? Throw them all in fire and air and take stone splinters.

I gave the trait a good run too. I found it stupid OP vs condi necros and quite useless everywhere else. It was amusing being able to run over necro marks but definitely not worth 30points in an otherwise crappy tree. Not sure I would spec it if it were an Earth 10 point trait – the Armour of Earth on 50% HP is better.

Personally, I’d rather see it thrown out or reworked into a more worthy GM trait, eg: 33% chance to reflect incoming conditions back to source while attuned to earth.

Another example of something I would spec 30 earth for: apply 1 stack of torment for each stack of bleeding or vulnerability you apply. <- might make condi Ele viable.

I said the same thing in the other DS thread. Yes, DS, by itself is not the over-the-top-faceroll-I’m-as-OP-a-Warrior trait, however, it can be a very effective tool.

I have been running with a 0-10-30-20-10 D/D diamondskin build for the last couple of weeks in roaming non-zerg WvW, and have had great success. I have also been trying out other builds with the same gear setup, most notably a high-crit Fresh-Air (0-30-10-20-10), and the standard Evasive Arcana (0-10-10-20-30). The Fresh-Air build can put out some very impressive burst numbers, and the might-stacking and extra heal/cleanse can be clutch, however, I keep migrating back to my DS build.

The reason I find is that, in most cases, the opening will dictate the flow and outcome of the fight. Against condition classes this is just devastating. There is nothing more satisfying that watching a necro try to fear/signet of spite and have nothing happen. Keeping over 90% health early isn’t that difficult with Omnoberry Pies and SoR, you just need to heal early. Additionally, against power classes, I still am over 2,700 toughness with a decent enough health pool. With my current gear set-up, I still have 60% crit chance with Fury and 87% crit damage. This generally means 2k lightning whip crits and burning speed and fire grab crits in the 4-8k+ range.

My build & gear: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fEAQJAoYhMmgbzx4wjEIEFugJMeECdQHKK8AlC5AA-jEDBYfIYjBkEJIUBgJqFRjtMsIasqaAKkYaXJVFLyWzDRziO1SBUuwI-w

Tyndal.1350:

I said the same thing in the other DS thread. Yes, DS, by itself is not the over-the-top-faceroll-I’m-as-OP-a-Warrior trait, however, it can be a very effective tool.

I have been running with a 0-10-30-20-10 D/D diamondskin build for the last couple of weeks in roaming non-zerg WvW, and have had great success. I have also been trying out other builds with the same gear setup, most notably a high-crit Fresh-Air (0-30-10-20-10), and the standard Evasive Arcana (0-10-10-20-30). The Fresh-Air build can put out some very impressive burst numbers, and the might-stacking and extra heal/cleanse can be clutch, however, I keep migrating back to my DS build.

The reason I find is that, in most cases, the opening will dictate the flow and outcome of the fight. Against condition classes this is just devastating. There is nothing more satisfying that watching a necro try to fear/signet of spite and have nothing happen. Keeping over 90% health early isn’t that difficult with Omnoberry Pies and SoR, you just need to heal early. Additionally, against power classes, I still am over 2,700 toughness with a decent enough health pool. With my current gear set-up, I still have 60% crit chance with Fury and 87% crit damage. This generally means 2k lightning whip crits and burning speed and fire grab crits in the 4-8k+ range.

My build & gear: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fEAQJAoYhMmgbzx4wjEIEFugJMeECdQHKK8AlC5AA-jEDBYfIYjBkEJIUBgJqFRjtMsIasqaAKkYaXJVFLyWzDRziO1SBUuwI-w

Hmm Ill give that trait setup a go I been running it with 0/0/30/20/20 and it works pretty good with that setup will try your trait setup when a little later.

Tell Amins I said hi and hi to the rest of AD/Bsty <3

oZii.2864:

Gorni.1764:

So you say the trait is good because you killed 3 people in total while using it? What if I tell you that you could’ve killed them even faster without this trait?

This should be fun please tell me how I could have killed a P/D perplexity theif and S/S long bow warrior faster without the trait.

Then I will tell you how every trait you took that doesn’t increase dps would have killed them faster.

Do you tell everyone with points in arcana the same thing? Throw them all in fire and air and take stone splinters.

Traits in arcana are incredibly usefull, but not only in the first seconds of combat against certain classes with certain specs. They will always help you out, regardless which class you’re fighting. Besides, arcana has very good stats for eles with boon-duration and attunement-CD-reduction.
I agree that DS is usefull against condition-Necros, but that’s only 1 class out of 8 and only 1 or 2 specs out of many. It was specifically designed to counter them, so if it wouldn’t work against condi-Necros it would be even more of a joke. But why the heck would I ever pick a trait that’s only good against a small fraction of players – especially in a game where 1v1 is a rare thing?

For your warrior and thief-example: When a warrior can’t get and hold you below 90% HP he’s either kittened or bunker. Since you say he ran S/S long bow I assume he wasn’t pure bunker so it shouldn’t be a problem for him to deal ~1,5k damage and after that DS is completely useless against him. Same goes for thief. Once he knows that you use DS he might not open with blinds but with a single attack followed by blind to completely negate DS. I rarely play WvW (only sPvP) so I can’t say much about perplexety-thieves.

oZii.2864:

Then I will tell you how every trait you took that doesn’t increase dps would have killed them faster.

I had no specific traits in mind. But since condition-damage is quite useless for eles, 100 toughness won’t really let you live longer (and also the 25P-trait is nothing but a design-flaw) and DS won’t help you at all against well-played power-builds, nearly any trait would be better against any class besides condi-necro and maybe condi-engi – and against those it’s ridiculously overpowered, or let’s say “boring”.

I said it from the beginning when first reading about it in the pre-patchnotes that this trait won’t do anything but countering very specific builds because for everything else the threshhold is too low and in group-fights nobody will even notice that you’re running 30 earth (a shame the search-function doesn’t work in this forum – otherwise I’d have quoted a DEV saying that they consider lowering the threshhold to 85 or even 80%). Have you noticed how the whole crying about this trait immediately stopped after the patch went life? Now most eles want a complete redesign, not because it’s OP, but because it’s utterly useless.
Like cerevisiae said, I wouldn’t even pick it if it was a 10P-trait, because other choices are by far more usefull in most scenarios. As a grandmaster-trait, this is a joke.

I for myself tested this trait for many hours in Solo-Q, playing bunker to get the most out of it – and it still was ridiculously weak. You may convince me of the contrary with a video showing how usefull it is against anything except pure conditions-builds and how especially this trait saved your life or made you win a duell but I don’t think that anybody will succeed with this task ^^

Gorni.1764:

Like cerevisiae said, I wouldn’t even pick it if it was a 10P-trait, because other choices are by far more usefull in most scenarios. As a grandmaster-trait, this is a joke.

I for myself tested this trait for many hours in Solo-Q, playing bunker to get the most out of it – and it still was ridiculously weak. You may convince me of the contrary with a video showing how usefull it is against anything except pure conditions-builds and how especially this trait saved your life or made you win a duell but I don’t think that anybody will succeed with this task ^^

I don’t think it’s a useless trait. I think it creates definite build diversity. My only gripe with the trait is it should lose effectiveness at 75%. Yeah, tell me that’s OP. I don’t care. It’s the same as engineers losing condis after they fall to 25%.

And as for your testing in SPvP, I can speak for oZii that he most definitely tested in WvW. Two different realms, especially because the trait doesn’t work 100% of the time in SPvP. And I’ve tested that one.

EDIT* Also, to address your earth being a trash trait line… You joking? You read the traits there? Some of the best defensive traits in the entire class..

Gorni.1764:

snip

You are dissecting the trait on it’s own and isolated as if it is the only trait taken. It is fact that you can get more damage from the earth line than you can from arcana or water. I don’t know why everyone is so hung up on it is the condition damage line. The only damage trait people take in water is bountiful power with boutiful giving you on average + 5% damage and a very slim maybe vital striking people take it to instagib.

Cleansing water is on par with diamond skin and everyone loves that trait. If I dissect cleansing water all on its own it is a terrible trait. If I look for synergy with elemental attunement and soothing disruption then it looks great.

Diamond skin is no different on it’s own it looks lackluster then you consider that you are going to get 120 toughness when you attune to earth, you can grab obsidian focus to reduce damage taken from ether renewal, you can grab elemental shielding for protection uptime further reducing damage taken. Rock solid is also in the there and is a very good trait. Sure if you can’t leave arcana or 30 water then those look bad to you but you never planned to leave water or arcana anyway so that trait isn’t for you. I don’t plan to ever run shout heals on my Warrior so I could care less what the tactics line looks like but I wouldn’t bash traited shouts.

Stone splinters with enduring damage will give you more damage than you can get from arcana or water. You don’t need boon duration is it good yes I agree but you don’t have to have it. I ran it with 0/0/30/20/20 only thing I didn’t have is evasive arcana which is also not a must have trait. I ran the trait with clerics armor + boon duration and celestial trinkets then ran it again with my knights/celestial armor mix divinity runes and zerk/cav trinkets.

The 0/10/30/20/10 build posted can put out alot of damage not being blinded by a thief is a very big advantage. I am not saying the trait is a must have I am just saying that it isn’t a bad trait at all and is actually very good.

The effectiveness of a build is always influenced by your opponent even standard D/D ele, fresh airs or any other ele build. I know to spike the ele after he comes out of water I know to check for signet or resto or ether renewal. I can figure all these things out in the first 2 seconds of fighting a ele what kind of build it is. Adjust on the fly if I am on my other classes. Same thing with diamond skin sure it isn’t always effective against everything but neither is cleansing water.

If I am out trolling on my P/D condition thief all the water traits a ele normally takes doesn’t bother me because I know how it works. If I didn’t know very much about ele then it is going to be much more effective. So I can’t sit here and say don’t go into water trait line because people know how it works.

I actually think DS is one of the better traits in the game, both in terms of strength and design. It isn’t massively overpowered, but strong and viably diverse. Running it requires you to sacrifice one of your heals, which is a big decision because, while DS still has its uses vs. power builds, having EA would help a hell of a lot more. It’s not a no-brainer, best for every situation trait.

Being a passive makes it seem like a poor design, but it’s actually a lot more active than it immediately seems, which is, I suspect, the reason so many eles are under the impression that it is a weak trait. If you just go out and play like you would without it, DS will do virtually nothing. You have to figure it in when making combat decisions. For instance, you are fighting a necro and have him on the defensive, but he just dropped you below 90% and has his cds up. You have to weigh maintaining pressure vs. the risk that you are now vulnerable to his bomb.

There’s also the fact that earth is a fantastic trait line, both for offensive and defensive builds, so the rest of the points you spend are well worth it as well.

Overall, DS builds aren’t the single best that everyone should run, but they are very viable, and let’s face it, you’ll never get tired of kittenting on condi necros without ever dropping below 95% hp.

new diamond skin is an ok trait, arcane brilliance is an ok skill..
they are good in some situations, not so good in others

“You are dissecting the trait on it’s own and isolated as if it is the only trait taken.” of course, because it doesn’t have any synergy (like cleansing water has for example).
And why is everyone talking about other traits in the earth-tree? This thread is about DS. I for myself run 20 earth in most of my builds because ER without stability is suicide in PvP. Like I said, there are plenty of nice alternatives and therefore I wouldn’t even take DS if it was in a lower tier.

And you guys even say it yourself: “having EA would help a hell of a lot more”. So why would I take DS?

I have been running an ele since release. I feel very comfortable that i know the class well. I have also learned several other professions well (guard, engi, ranger). I have always had a tough time with condition necros, mesmers, and engineers. It doesn’t really matter how you spec, they are brutal.

I was very interested in diamond skin, so i rolled one in sPvP. It took some tweeking, but i am VERY happy with the results. I can 1v1 anyone. Conditions are a joke and the toughness you get from traiting deep into earth is great against warriors and thieves.

For those of you interested, I spec all the way into earth(diamond skin, stability, armor of earth), all the way into fire(whatever you like, you need the power). I use ether renewal as my heal. My utilities are armor of earth and arcane shield. Use a scepter and a focus. The rest i feel can be adjusted to fit the map and the players you’re up against.

The definite downside is mobility. Fiery Greatsword is nice for added movement, but since you really need your skills on the focus, it is a danger to use in battle. Glyph of elementals is probably better if you can stand to be a little slow. Keep your precision as close to 0 as you can get it. You want to rely on toughness, power, and conditions. Your heal recharges every 15 seconds, so dont be afraid to you use it! Keep your health over 90%! Do not try to save armor of earth or arcane shield or obsidian flesh: pop them early and often.

Keep your health up and you walk over necros.

Up against a thief? Pop a fire wall and arcane shield. They are done.

Warrior? you have 2 blinds, a chill, and 2 interrupts.

Ranger or engineer? Swirling winds, blind, gale, dead. Because we are slow, beware pets and a ranger that tries to kite you. Dragons tooth, phoenix, and firewall eliminate turrets very quickly.

Firewall and phoenix destroy mesmer clones with ease.

If you are up against a talented guardian, they are the weakness of this build. Their healing, condition removal, and toughness make for a long fight.

You can stomp anything but a thief, mesmer, or ele just by attuning to earth.

Gorni.1764:

you guys even say it yourself: “having EA would help a hell of a lot more”. So why would I take DS?

i could Just as Easily argue why even use an elementalist because i can die a hell of a lot less playing a different profession

cheshirefox.7026:

Gorni.1764:

you guys even say it yourself: “having EA would help a hell of a lot more”. So why would I take DS?

i could Just as Easily argue why even use an elementalist because i can die a hell of a lot less playing a different profession

You’re right about that though I’d say that most eles are just bored by other classes. But why would anybody choose inferior traits in addition to playing a weak class?

I also agree the trait is quite good. I think people don’t realize how many conditions are avoided by having this trait. I don’t even think it’s exclusively anti-condition builds either.

A lot of power classes open up with a condition like immobilize. These get ignored with diamond skin.

You can also walk through necro marks. (I ran a 0/0/30/20/20 and 0/0/30/10/30 build).

Ultimately I went back to 0/10/0/30/30 because I’m more of a reactive player and this build felt like I had to plan my offenses a bit more than I care to, but it’s far from useless and does introduce build diversity.

Where do these few people come up with this made up “most Ele" statistic…. Just to clear it out you, your friends and even the few that actually post in the forums are not most eles. DS isn’t as strong as I thought it would be for my bursty non glass cannon ele. However, I can definitely see it coming very helpful towards those good players that have different ways to heal and with decent armor type. Personally, necros are no longer even a challenge when I roam with focus offhand.

hopbounce.9812:

I also agree the trait is quite good. I think people don’t realize how many conditions are avoided by having this trait. I don’t even think it’s exclusively anti-condition builds either.

I don’t think you realise how often the trait is 100% useless. With 15-18K HP, it takes 1 or maybe 2 autoattacks to make your 30point trait 100% useless. If you then blow your healing CDs early (and probably overheal/waste healing in the process), then you’re making it easier for the enemy to kill you.

Thing is, with DS, you still have to take condi removal with you, whereas Cleansing Water (30 water) works all the time, works with all sources of regen, and integrates nicely with other traits, and is all the condi removal you’re ever going to need.

A lot of power classes open up with a condition like immobilize. These get ignored with diamond skin.

Actually most classes will open with CC, against which DS does nothing. After their opening combo, you’re below 90% HP and DS is useless.

You can also walk through necro marks. (I ran a 0/0/30/20/20 and 0/0/30/10/30 build).

You can already dodge-roll through marks to trigger them and take no damage. This also has the advantage of clearing the mark whereas with DS and +90% health the mark stays intact.

Ultimately I went back to 0/10/0/30/30 because I’m more of a reactive player and this build felt like I had to plan my offenses a bit more than I care to, but it’s far from useless and does introduce build diversity.

I disagree. I don’t see any high-level players running it and I don’t see it in WVW. In WVW chat, it is consistently derided and ridiculed as useless (except in condi 1v1s, no arguments there, it’s blatantly OP).

LightningBlaze.4913:

Where do these few people come up with this made up “most Ele" statistic…. Just to clear it out you, your friends and even the few that actually post in the forums are not most eles. DS isn’t as strong as I thought it would be for my bursty non glass cannon ele. However, I can definitely see it coming very helpful towards those good players that have different ways to heal and with decent armor type. Personally, necros are no longer even a challenge when I roam with focus offhand.

All Ele’s run x/x//20/30 D/D!!

oZii.2864:

All Ele’s run x/x//20/30 D/D!!

Would be willing to bet if you collated the specs of Ele who’ve played at least an hour of either WVW or sPVP in the past 2 weeks, that x/x/x/20+/20+ would be the most common trait setup, with cantrips as the most common utility type.

scerevisiae.1972:

oZii.2864:

All Ele’s run x/x//20/30 D/D!!

Would be willing to bet if you collated the specs of Ele who’ve played at least an hour of either WVW or sPVP in the past 2 weeks, that x/x/x/20+/20+ would be the most common trait setup, with cantrips as the most common utility type.

Probably but if it isn’t 30 arcana I would say it is different enough. Putting 30 points into fire, air, or earth changes how you play. It is good people are grabbing grandmasters in trait lines besides water and arcana. Which is what we all want. If people don’t reach for grandmaster traits then that means we have some bad GM traits.

I think Ele has pretty good GM traits in each line now. It just doesn’t have that hard choice between GM traits but that goes for alot of classes there is either 1 clear cut choice at GM or both traits aren’t good.

wow

If the people complaining are looking for a trait that will allow them to play badly and still win, then DS is not it. Frankly, ele is not your class. Roll a warrior and lets all move on.

For people interested in a serious discussion on build theory, I believe there are compelling reasons to use this trait:

To only list one, any ele that traits into water and arcana is sacrificing their damage output.

What if, instead, it gave Stability, Protection, and immunity to condition damage above 80% health? You could still be chilled, poisoned, vulnerability, crippled, and immobilized. More useful against power builds. Lets necro kite a bit.

Ryld.1340:

What if, instead, it gave Stability, Protection, and immunity to condition damage above 80% health? You could still be chilled, poisoned, vulnerability, crippled, and immobilized. More useful against power builds. Lets necro kite a bit.

Permanent stability above 80% and protection? Not happening that’s stronger then what it is now. The trait and the trait line are useful against power builds. You get 300 toughness just for grabbing the trait and an addition 120 toughness when you attune to earth. What else do you want against power builds because defensively I don’t now what else you would be looking for on top of the potential +420 toughness . Protection on auras, stability when you attune to earth. The earth line has plenty to deal with power builds on top of toughness while giving you far more damage then you can get out of water.

Take 0/10/0/30/30 with zephyr’s boon and go hit the heavy golem, then change your build to 0/0/30/20/20 taking stone splinters then go hit the heavy golem and I bet you will do more damage with 30 earth then just 10 in air. Earth is a pretty strong trait line not even factoring Diamond skin.

At first I was very sceptical but I’ve been running 0/0/30/20/20 staff support for wvw guild events the last two weeks, full celestial trinkets, cavalier back piece (I’m poor) and a mix of knights, pvt, zerker with full boon duration runes and despite testing out a few other builds it’s the one I keep coming back to.

I do miss Evasive Arcana and the additional vitality and utility of 30 water but if you’re careful about positioning and pay attention to your health I personally find Diamond Skin together with Rock Solid and Armour of Earth at 50% to be a powerful combination that suits my playstyle well.

Hopefully in the future I can revisit D/D again but with the numbers we’ve been facing recently I’ll be sticking to staff for zerg situations although I do wish we had better access to conditions to make better use of the additional condition damage, perhaps they’d consider moving +condition damage to fire and move condition duration to earth instead.