Guild Wars 2

Nikkinella.8254:

If you think warrior is a joke in pvp, then you’re doing something wrong. I have no problem killing people with mine. Its only the noob zerker 100b warriors that have problems. Bleed build with twin swords and a longbow. I just watch people melt as they attempt to run away from me. Now it will be even easier. And yeah, you’re right, thief is SOOO weak. it REALLY needs a buff, just look at how weak this is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ecl8d0TQGQ

I also forgot to mention, I saw this post and wanted to correct. Thieves are very strong in WvW yes, but they are considered lower tier in Spvp by the general community because their mechanics make them fairly useless in the game mode.

Warriors in Spvp are basically a joke. Nobody actively denies this. By PvP this is what is usually meant. WvW is a variation of PvE, or is defined as. So yes, warrior is still good at PvE, and oddly enough Thief is good at PvE for once in WvW circumstances.

Just a hint: sPvP is not the largest demographic of the game.

Defending any profession’s nerfs because of how it affects PvP while ignoring the much larger playerbase in WvWvW and PvE and how said nerfs affect them is simply operating with blinders on.

Why should I roll over and accept ridiculous nerfs to my preferred profession because of a mode I rarely play? People on forums, players in general, and especially ANet balance teams need to stop looking at the Ele in a vacuum. Destroying or at least severely hampering a profession in the entire game because of a slight advantage in one mode makes no logical sense.

But by all means, continue to advocate against a class you don’t like so that your pet class gets better, and ignore the overall health and longevity of the game as a whole. They shouldn’t call these “State of the Game” announcements, they should be called “State of the Whiners” because apparently that’s who runs the balance input.

PistolWhip.2697:

Its 3% per boon, so unless you run more than 5 boons at a time, hard unless you run “save yourselves”, or your teammates are there to provide boons. It wont be that number in most situations.

Just running the Elemental Attunement trait will give said warrior +15% extra damage (it gives near-permanent might, protection, regeneration, swiftness & fury). If I’m unfortunate enough to recieve even more boons from my allies during the fight, it’ll quickly add up to 20%. I’d drop the trait but unfortunately, viable boonless builds are in short supply on staff eles. Making a build without boons is pretty darn hard, even if it would be viable to play. Just look at the traits and skills and see how many of the provide boons. The warrior would have a tough time finding an ele that doesn’t give him at least +9%.

ThiBash.5634:

PistolWhip.2697:

Its 3% per boon, so unless you run more than 5 boons at a time, hard unless you run “save yourselves”, or your teammates are there to provide boons. It wont be that number in most situations.

Just running the Elemental Attunement trait will give said warrior +15% extra damage (it gives near-permanent might, protection, regeneration, swiftness & fury). If I’m unfortunate enough to recieve even more boons from my allies during the fight, it’ll quickly add up to 20%. I’d drop the trait but unfortunately, viable boonless builds are in short supply on staff eles. Just look at the traits and skills and see how many of the provide boons. The warrior would have a tough time finding an ele that doesn’t give him at least +9%.

Well, as mentioned they need to take the trait, and if a warrior does rarely take the trait, they are looking to bust classes faster. If a warrior wants to do damage regardless of the trait being there or not, they will do extreme amounts of it. The problem was never lack of damage for warriors, but lack of staying power, that’s why the warrior addition seems like a nice treat but… somewhat useless to me.

@Kaleban

I hope you don’t mean me, I have a lvl 80 Ele, who also ran D/D for WvW. To be precise, the many concerns raised were in Spvp yes, but also in WvW. That’s 2 game modes not just one.

PvE is fundamentally flawed, for Ele and some of the other classes alike, and that’s why they should split balancing.

ThiBash.5634:

PistolWhip.2697:

Its 3% per boon, so unless you run more than 5 boons at a time, hard unless you run “save yourselves”, or your teammates are there to provide boons. It wont be that number in most situations.

Just running the Elemental Attunement trait will give said warrior +15% extra damage (it gives near-permanent might, protection, regeneration, swiftness & fury). If I’m unfortunate enough to recieve even more boons from my allies during the fight, it’ll quickly add up to 20%. I’d drop the trait but unfortunately, viable boonless builds are in short supply on staff eles. Just look at the traits and skills and see how many of the provide boons. The warrior would have a tough time finding an ele that doesn’t give him at least +9%.

Boon hate as a mechanic is asinine. The whole point of boons, heck the definition is that they’re beneficial. If boons become a liability, why run them in the first place? Why even put them in the game? Why have different builds, with traits that provide defensive bonuses if running a defensive build means three months down the road that build will get whined on by terribad players who refuse to run the obvious counters and instead convince ANet to nerf it into the ground by the addition of crutch mechanics that pigeonhole the entire playerbase into only two or three preferred classes to the exclusion of all others?

This is simply ANet putting a band-aid on a bullet wound. UNLESS all professions get access to boon hate, then its obvious they have even less of a clear idea how to balance their game then I thought.

@Kaleban

Boon hate is a bad idea IMO yes, how its implemented that is. Its them trying to find a use for the under powered warrior at this point, which really isn’t helping/

Classes should have boon-hate on Master traitlines, to be “a build” to choose from, not mandatory, these changes are so sick I’m not even talking about them.

PistolWhip.2697:

If a warrior wants to do damage regardless of the trait being there or not, they will do extreme amounts of it.

That’s exactly what I mean. Warriors already do an insane amount of damage. By picking just 1 trait, they will completely steamroll staff eles now. Staying power just became irrelevant, they no longer need it.

PistolWhip.2697:

@Kaleban

I hope you don’t mean me, I have a lvl 80 Ele, who also ran D/D for WvW. To be precise, the many concerns raised were in Spvp yes, but also in WvW. That’s 2 game modes not just one.

PvE is fundamentally flawed, for Ele and some of the other classes alike, and that’s why they should split balancing.

No I meant you. sPvP and WvWvW function very differently, mechanically and playstyle-wise. The Ele in sPvP is a very different beast altogether from the WvWvW and PvE counterpart. For you to not acknowledge that says to me you’re just trolling.

I would contend that sPvP is fundamentally flawed, that PvE and WvWvW are the “real” game modes. Perhaps they should split balancing, I won’t weigh in on that issue, my problem with the balance team is balancing the PvE side out of concerns raised in PvP. In fact, Pv kitten o different in gameplay from the other two modes it could be said to be a different game altogether. From the builds people run to objectives and strategies. Capturing and holding points solo or in small teams is extremely different from AoEing down a keep in siege, or taking down a champion and adds in PvE.

I mean, take the AoE cap on player skills. Makes sense when you’re in PvP, where usually you’ll either be around only one or two other teammates, or attacking just a couple of people. Makes NO sense in WvWvW where you could be faced with 50 or more players, or in PvE where sometimes the mobs outnumber the AoE cap by a factor of two or more. And yet ANet calls it balanced, and people argue for it, all the time citing PvP as their yardstick.

The fundamental flaw is the disconnect on the part of players and ANet for not recognizing these obvious differences. I don’t mind the idea of professions playing differently in different modes, but PvE players should not be penalized because of the PvP meta and a very small vocal minority whining about something they haven’t even tried to counter in the first place.

No. They still need it. Because they fall so easy and so hard because unlike any other class when you see a warriors health drop low, the chances of it rocketing back to full unlike ele or guardian is highly unlikely. You think the Boon Hate trait is stupid an unneccessary? As a warrior player so do I, and some other warriors I know.

Please change it out for sustain, something like regen when we burst, or a heal proc someone on the god kitten bar.

@Kaleban

To call someone a troll for disagreeing with you isn’t good argument ethics. We have different view points, get over it. I personally found the Cantrip Ele to be too forgiving in WvW, and too easy as a spec to play. The only class as an inbuilt speciality that should be able to get away from a zerg if alerted in time is a thief. No class should be able to rival it, as Anet has stated themselves. Ele’s could, and I did many times, that’s not right.

Split balancing is in fact what you should weigh on because it would fix your problem. They would balance skills separately for PvE, WvW and Spvp like they did in GW1, meaning less issues like this would arise.

That’s why I’m advocating it, to avoid stress like this. People also keep forgetting, its not people whining Ele is OP because they can’t win that made them reconsider, its people who play Ele openly admitting its somewhat overpowered with that spec. I’m sure and hopeful they will add buffs to other trees like the largely useless Fire trait tree due to these changes. Patience is key.

PistolWhip.2697:

@Kaleban

Boon hate is a bad idea IMO yes, how its implemented that is. Its them trying to find a use for the under powered warrior at this point, which really isn’t helping/

Just stop. Please. Warrior is somewhat underpowered in sPvP. NOWHERE else. These changes will affect everyone in every mode, without consideration for the actual consequences for the majority of the playerbase.

Saying Warrior is UP while Ele is OP (the majority of the crysacks around here) without qualifying that statement as ONLY in sPvP and nowhere else leads to a bunch of parroting voices claiming it as true for everything. Its basically rhetorical propaganda, and makes me think these people have an agenda to make all proffesions other than Warrior into easy kills.

[edit] yes the Ele is somewhat overpowered. That doesn’t mean the class is unbeatable, and the extent of the nerfbat usage is inexcusable. In every game with differentiated professions, each will excel in a certain area. This is natural and a part of the idea of rock-paper-scissors balance, that any class will always have a counter. Eles in D/D spec excelled at not getting killed, and that was it. The counter was a boonstrip from a Necro or Mesmer, or simply doing massive DPS, which several professions could easily do to a cloth wearer, even one coated in boons. And no, there are only a few people “admitting” Ele is SOMEWHAT overpowered, which is not the cause of nerfing. Its the massive amount of whiners. The squeaky wheel always gets the grease.

I guess if actual Ele players (not Thieves and Warriors trolling as such) complain enough, we might get some real consideration. But I doubt it, from what I hear no one on the balance teams mains or even plays Ele all that much, and are content with letting possibly the most interesting and flashy class fall to the wayside. Sad.

Sorry, but since English isn’t my native, I couldn’t understand 100% of what they’ve said about signet nerf (beside it’s base heal being reduced). Did they mention if its passive will still affect attunement swap and dodges with 30arcana? If confussion does, signet should too stay as it is.

These changes are just baffling. 2 different cooldowns for a skill? What?!!?!

I can live with most but this RTL “fix” is so broken I can’t even understand the thought.

It’s been said time and time again that if they buffed the other weapons, fire, air and earth that more people would be inclined to move away from bunker DD.

These changes make it even worse. I have shelfed my ele for over a month now. It’s just not fun to me anymore compared to my other toons

Somewhat underpowered? its in its own low tier of basically “practical joke”. Go look at the pvp community’s tier list.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/sPvP-Class-Tier-List/first

You also can’t roam on a warrior solo in WvW unless you’re skilled enough. That didn’t apply with D/D ele, doesn’t with thief, or mesmer. Why should one class not be allowed to roam solo and only be good in group situations. Even in group situations my guild always takes the warrior out first because they fall so easy.

The only place where warrior is highly regarded is PvE, pure dungeon PvE and zerg fests where CC is used, and that’s negated with stability arguable making Necro’s and Mesmer’s more useful.

Like I said in my post if you bothered to quote it all, I’am hoping these changes will allow them to give Ele versatility and the buffs in other trees they need without having to worry whether it will add even more power to the cheese D/D or not.

But in your own words I agree, Ele in PvE pure content is, “Somewhat underpowered”

Honestly, if an entire build is “ruined” by a conditional cooldown adjustment to Ride the Lightning, that’s proof in and of itself the skill is broken and needs to be adjusted.

I haven’t watched the SotG, but if the OP’s listed changes are all that’s happening to ele, I am ridiculously relieved. The Mist Form change will be painful, but otherwise there’s not much to complain about here. A cooldown added to Cleansing Water? Oh noes, now we can only clear conditions once every 5 seconds, or when we use our heal (with a 15 second cooldown), or when we use our water 5 skill, or when we dodge in water, or when we use Cleansing Fire. It’s not a meaningful change (except perhaps in high level tPvP, where it’s probably pretty desperately needed). The signet heal change can be a big deal to some people, but Ether Renewal isn’t being changed and the difference between the two was mostly preference.

Honestly, I’m pretty excited that this is what Anet considers to be reasonable for bringing D/D ele back down to earth.

Syeria.4812:

Honestly, if an entire build is “ruined” by a conditional cooldown adjustment to Ride the Lightning, that’s proof in and of itself the skill is broken and needs to be adjusted.

I haven’t watched the SotG, but if the OP’s listed changes are all that’s happening to ele, I am ridiculously relieved. The Mist Form change will be painful, but otherwise there’s not much to complain about here. A cooldown added to Cleansing Water? Oh noes, now we can only clear conditions once every 5 seconds, or when we use our heal (with a 15 second cooldown), or when we use our water 5 skill, or when we dodge in water, or when we use Cleansing Fire. It’s not a meaningful change (except perhaps in high level tPvP, where it’s probably pretty desperately needed). The signet heal change can be a big deal to some people, but Ether Renewal isn’t being changed and the difference between the two was mostly preference.

Honestly, I’m pretty excited that this is what Anet considers to be reasonable for bringing D/D ele back down to earth.

I like you. You ooze the brilliant optimism and perseverance this class was meant to apply to. Players like you make GW2 a better place.

As long as it’s split from PvE I don’t care…

Syeria.4812:

Honestly, if an entire build is “ruined” by a conditional cooldown adjustment to Ride the Lightning, that’s proof in and of itself the skill is broken and needs to be adjusted.

I haven’t watched the SotG, but if the OP’s listed changes are all that’s happening to ele, I am ridiculously relieved. The Mist Form change will be painful, but otherwise there’s not much to complain about here. A cooldown added to Cleansing Water? Oh noes, now we can only clear conditions once every 5 seconds, or when we use our heal (with a 15 second cooldown), or when we use our water 5 skill, or when we dodge in water, or when we use Cleansing Fire. It’s not a meaningful change (except perhaps in high level tPvP, where it’s probably pretty desperately needed). The signet heal change can be a big deal to some people, but Ether Renewal isn’t being changed and the difference between the two was mostly preference.

Honestly, I’m pretty excited that this is what Anet considers to be reasonable for bringing D/D ele back down to earth.

D/D build is a dueler. D/D build relies on mobility and escapes just to survive. ANet decides to double the cooldown of the escape, introduce a split CD just to mess with the player (and worry about hitting a rock or part of the landscape), and introduce boon hate (no more yay for perma swiftness) to further reduce survivability and mobility.

Where’s the balance to skills like:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phase_Retreat a 1200 range teleport, combo finisher and summons a condition stacking clone (with a target) on a 10 second cooldown.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Leap_of_Faith a 600 range leap combo finisher with damage and an AoE 3 second blind on a 15 second CD
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flashing_Blade a 600 range 3 second AoE blind teleport on a 10 second CD

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infiltrator%27s_Arrow a 900 range teleport, and 5 second area blind with no CD on a class which can trait for heavy resource renewal

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Swoop a 1100 range leap finisher with AoE damage on a 12 second CD

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Whirlwind_Attack a 450 range whirl finisher on a 10s CD with evasion
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rush a 1200 range damage/gap closer on a 20 second CD
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Savage_Leap a 600 range damaging leap combo finisher on an 8 second CD

And you people arguing FOR further Ele nerfs, specifically in the mobility, escape and healing department just conveniently forget that every other profession has these? And that just to survive against the other professions, the Ele needs this kind of functionality? Which means the Ele not only doesn’t excel at mobility, its no longer even mediocre. Its amazing how easy it is for people who’ve been stomped by really good Eles to assume that all Eles are like that. Especially when those same crysacks are are obviously bad players who can’t be bothered to interrupt a 3.5 second channel of CE, or, you know, dodge out of the big warning circle. /facepalm

Kaleban.9834:

D/D build is a dueler. D/D build relies on mobility and escapes just to survive. ANet decides to double the cooldown of the escape, introduce a split CD just to mess with the player (and worry about hitting a rock or part of the landscape), and introduce boon hate (no more yay for perma swiftness) to further reduce survivability and mobility.

Where’s the balance to skills like:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phase_Retreat a 1200 range teleport, combo finisher and summons a condition stacking clone (with a target) on a 10 second cooldown.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Leap_of_Faith a 600 range leap combo finisher with damage and an AoE 3 second blind on a 15 second CD
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flashing_Blade a 600 range 3 second AoE blind teleport on a 10 second CD

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infiltrator%27s_Arrow a 900 range teleport, and 5 second area blind with no CD on a class which can trait for heavy resource renewal

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Swoop a 1100 range leap finisher with AoE damage on a 12 second CD

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Whirlwind_Attack a 450 range whirl finisher on a 10s CD with evasion
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rush a 1200 range damage/gap closer on a 20 second CD
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Savage_Leap a 600 range damaging leap combo finisher on an 8 second CD

And you people arguing FOR further Ele nerfs, specifically in the mobility, escape and healing department just conveniently forget that every other profession has these? And that just to survive against the other professions, the Ele needs this kind of functionality? Which means the Ele not only doesn’t excel at mobility, its no longer even mediocre. Its amazing how easy it is for people who’ve been stomped by really good Eles to assume that all Eles are like that. Especially when those same crysacks are are obviously bad players who can’t be bothered to interrupt a 3.5 second channel of CE, or, you know, dodge out of the big warning circle. /facepalm

I only wvw on my eles. The vast majority of my time (and about 70% of my WXP) is spent on my D/D ele. You can complain all you want about those individual skills, but it has been obvious for months that D/D ele needed adjustment. Considering what could have come down, and what history from other games has taught us to expect, it’s amazing that the minor adjustments being made here are all that are happening. The change to RTL affects its use as a gap opener and nothing else. That has been a huge complaint about ele (and in a similar vein, thief) for a very very long time. Ele still has two other gap opening skills. I notice your little list didn’t include Lightning Flash (900 range, instant cast, does not break channel, stunbreaker, can be traited to apply regen and vigor and to remove condition). Properly executed, an ele can freeze nearby opponents, travel 2700 (Burning Speed>Lightning Flash>Ride the Lightning), gain vigor, regen, remove a condition, and have 5 seconds of quickness thrown in at the end all over the course of maybe 3 seconds. Ele still has a lot of mobility. This didn’t make a huge change there.

What it did change is the infinite escape. It’s going to be possible for D/D eles to be chased down once in a very rare while. You will die some times. Earlier today I went through a situation where I escaped alive (and ended up crushing my pursuers when I made it to a group of allies) where I probably wouldn’t have escaped with the changes to RTL in place. But in all honesty, I shouldn’t have survived that encounter. Those 4 people chasing me down (and actually using their gap closers, teleports, mobility skills, and mobility counters wisely) should have caught and killed me. But ultimately, what would that death have cost me? A little less than 2s in repairs? (I had the outmanned buff, so not even that) A 45 second run across the map to get back to where I was going? The Ride the Lightning change really isn’t a big deal.

Syeria.4812:

The change to RTL affects its use as a gap opener and nothing else.

I beg to disagree. It by far doesn’t only concern openers, it concerns whole types of playstyle. I like to roam in WvW. I like to move on my own behind enemy lines, like to take out supply yaks, like to run around the map reporting enemy movements and so on. Mobility is the single most important attribute for this kind of playstile. It was one of the main reasons making my ele my main WvW char. RtL is a big part of my mobility (and thuss my build) and now got/gets nerfed multiple times. And what about a DPS playstyle which absolutely relies on getting in fast, hitting for a short time and getting out fast? Not what I do but I bet there are quiet a few people out there enjoying that kind of gameplay.

I chose the ele to be my main partly for reasons that are getting nerfed away over the last few and current patches. Of course some people will tell me to choose another class then that will suite my playstyle more.
But I don’t want to re-grind all that stuff yet another time! I Grinded all my armor, my trinkets. I ran fractals like a mad man just for getting the best backpack. And of course WXP and the commander badge have to be character bound too! Switching my char would mean to regain all the WXP, armor, weapons, sigils and another 100g for a new commander book.
I spent countless hours grinding tokens, gold and WXP to get where I currently am with this character. Switching’s just not an option. Everything wouldn’t be half as bad if this game, no matter what ANet claims, wouldn’t be so kitten grindy. And even if I would put myself through all the grind (of which I’d have to do a big chunk in PvE, which I don’t even want to play, because you can’t get everything in WvW); who’s to say they won’t nerf away the kind of build from the new class shortly after I get my stuff together?

Yuki Chuki.2457:

Syeria.4812:

The change to RTL affects its use as a gap opener and nothing else.

I beg to disagree. It by far doesn’t only concern openers, it concerns whole types of playstyle. I like to roam in WvW. I like to move on my own behind enemy lines, like to take out supply yaks, like to run around the map reporting enemy movements and so on. Mobility is the single most important attribute for this kind of playstile. It was one of the main reasons making my ele my main WvW char. RtL is a big part of my mobility (and thuss my build) and now got/gets nerfed multiple times. And what about a DPS playstyle which absolutely relies on getting in fast, hitting for a short time and getting out fast? Not what I do but I bet there are quiet a few people out there enjoying that kind of gameplay.

With out of combat mobility, you’re looking at also using Fiery Greatsword for movement in many (most?) cases so the impact of the change is minimal. Also careful use of attacks against critters would seem to mitigate the impact of the change as well. The DPS playstyle is affected in the sense that their gap opener (which is what I explicitly noted) is changed slightly. The use as a gap closer is unaffected due to the conditional cooldown.

The “behind enemy lines non-combat mobility” concern seems meaningful on paper, but it’s not likely to really amount to much when all the other factors (and mitigation techniques) are taken into consideration. Ultimately, we’re talking about an impact of 1200 range every 20 seconds at most (real impact is going to be significantly less than that after factoring in mitigation and rotation inefficiencies). We’re talking about a real effect that’s about as significant as a thief traveling with heartseeker instead of infiltrators arrow.

Syeria.4812:

With out of combat mobility, you’re looking at also using Fiery Greatsword for movement in many (most?) cases so the impact of the change is minimal. Also careful use of attacks against critters would seem to mitigate the impact of the change as well. The DPS playstyle is affected in the sense that their gap opener (which is what I explicitly noted) is changed slightly. The use as a gap closer is unaffected due to the conditional cooldown.

The “behind enemy lines non-combat mobility” concern seems meaningful on paper, but it’s not likely to really amount to much when all the other factors (and mitigation techniques) are taken into consideration. Ultimately, we’re talking about an impact of 1200 range every 20 seconds at most (real impact is going to be significantly less than that after factoring in mitigation and rotation inefficiencies). We’re talking about a real effect that’s about as significant as a thief traveling with heartseeker instead of infiltrators arrow.

There are 3 things you are forgetting:
1.) It is an 1800 range decrease ever 40s as the old range was 1500 (a bug however) and the cooldown was 20s.
2.) Hitting something puts you in combat, which slows you way down.
3.) Fiery Greatsword is on a very long cooldown, and can’t be out all the time.

The end result is that if you want to roam, find another class. You will be found, caught, and killed on your ele. Your only defense will be to waypoint when seen.

Well yeah, of course you can use RtL on criters and the like but that’s just… kitten I mean.. it is a possible workaround but it sounds by no way intuitive, uncomplicated or by any means fun. More like an unnecessary, boring chore. If we assume that you can use it nearly as often as before that way if you’re out of combat, why not just making this 40 second nerf only applying in combat? Then it wouldn’t be just plain annoing out of combat.

And Fiery Greatsword.. I don’t know. Sure it gives some mobility moves but you also get some sacrifices from it. You can only use it 1 out of 3 minutes. While you use it, you aren’t able to use RtL or Auras which grant you swiftness. And if you have to engage someone, chances are, the skill will be on cooldown.

Not saying RtL wasn’t a bit annyoing inside fights. But why not just nerf it there if that was the issue?
And even then I don’t know how/if that’s gonna work out alongside the Mistform nerf. Class with lowest armor and base HP and now they heavely nerf chances to get out of combat and the ability to heal while invulnerable at once? I don’t know, I really don’t know…. this just seems a bit rushed and I’d wish for them to come up with some slightly more elegant solutions or at least just nerf one aspect of survivability at a time and analyzing the impact rather than applying multiple nerfs that will hit hard and risk to overshoot like they did so many times in the past.

BlackBeard.2873:

Syeria.4812:

With out of combat mobility, you’re looking at also using Fiery Greatsword for movement in many (most?) cases so the impact of the change is minimal. Also careful use of attacks against critters would seem to mitigate the impact of the change as well. The DPS playstyle is affected in the sense that their gap opener (which is what I explicitly noted) is changed slightly. The use as a gap closer is unaffected due to the conditional cooldown.

The “behind enemy lines non-combat mobility” concern seems meaningful on paper, but it’s not likely to really amount to much when all the other factors (and mitigation techniques) are taken into consideration. Ultimately, we’re talking about an impact of 1200 range every 20 seconds at most (real impact is going to be significantly less than that after factoring in mitigation and rotation inefficiencies). We’re talking about a real effect that’s about as significant as a thief traveling with heartseeker instead of infiltrators arrow.

There are 3 things you are forgetting:
1.) It is an 1800 range decrease ever 40s as the old range was 1500 (a bug however) and the cooldown was 20s.
2.) Hitting something puts you in combat, which slows you way down.
3.) Fiery Greatsword is on a very long cooldown, and can’t be out all the time.

The end result is that if you want to roam, find another class. You will be found, caught, and killed on your ele. Your only defense will be to waypoint when seen.

The bug fix is a bug fix, and should not be considered a change in regards to the actual change in the skill.

Hitting a critter does not make you enter combat.

The impact on mobility when FGS is out is zero. That’s the point here. A significant amount of an ele’s out of combat mobility in the scenario described is based on FGS, and not RTL, so you can’t act like the change in RTL affects mobility 100% of the time, as people around here have been repeatedly claiming.

Yuki Chuki.2457:

Well yeah, of course you can use RtL on criters and the like but that’s just.. kitten I mean.. it is a possible workaround but it sounds by no way intuitive, uncomplicated or by any means fun. More like an unnecessary, boring chore. If we assume that you can use it nearly as often as before that way if you’re out of combat, why not just making this 40 second nerf only applying in combat? Then it wouldn’t be just plain annoing out of combat.

And Fiery Greatsword.. I don’t know. Sure it gives some mobility moves but you also get some sacrifices from it. You can only use it 1 out of 3 minutes. While you use it, you aren’t able to use RtL or Auras which grant you swiftness. And if you have to engage someone, chances are, the skill will be on cooldown.

Not saying RtL wasn’t a bit annyoing inside fights. But why not just nerf it there if that was the issue?
And even then I don’t know how/if that’s gonna work out alongside the Mistform nerf. Class with lowest armor and base HP and now they heavely nerf chances to get out of combat and the ability to heal while invulnerable at once? I don’t know, I really don’t know…. this just seems a bit rushed and I’d wish for them to come up with some slightly more elegant solutions or at least just nerf one aspect of survivability at a time and analyzing the impact rather than applying multiple nerfs that will hit hard and risk to overshoot like they did so many times in the past.

I’m not trying to imply there’s no effect from this change. The point I’m making is that many people are blowing it dramatically out of proportion. You still have Burning Speed. You still have Lightning Flash. You still have FGS. Those aren’t changing. Even if the change ends up being dramatic enough to genuinely harm ele mobility, you could swap to staff (while out of combat, just make sure you don’t get jumped unaware) and have perma-swiftness + FGS + Burning Retreat. This isn’t like reducing confusion and retaliation damage by 50%. I’d be hesitant to put it in the same category as changing Revealed from 3 seconds to 4 (and I hear that’s being changed back for PvE/WvW?).

Syeria.4812:

Yuki Chuki.2457:

Well yeah, of course you can use RtL on criters and the like but that’s just.. kitten I mean.. it is a possible workaround but it sounds by no way intuitive, uncomplicated or by any means fun. More like an unnecessary, boring chore. If we assume that you can use it nearly as often as before that way if you’re out of combat, why not just making this 40 second nerf only applying in combat? Then it wouldn’t be just plain annoing out of combat.

And Fiery Greatsword.. I don’t know. Sure it gives some mobility moves but you also get some sacrifices from it. You can only use it 1 out of 3 minutes. While you use it, you aren’t able to use RtL or Auras which grant you swiftness. And if you have to engage someone, chances are, the skill will be on cooldown.

Not saying RtL wasn’t a bit annyoing inside fights. But why not just nerf it there if that was the issue?
And even then I don’t know how/if that’s gonna work out alongside the Mistform nerf. Class with lowest armor and base HP and now they heavely nerf chances to get out of combat and the ability to heal while invulnerable at once? I don’t know, I really don’t know…. this just seems a bit rushed and I’d wish for them to come up with some slightly more elegant solutions or at least just nerf one aspect of survivability at a time and analyzing the impact rather than applying multiple nerfs that will hit hard and risk to overshoot like they did so many times in the past.

I’m not trying to imply there’s no effect from this change. The point I’m making is that many people are blowing it dramatically out of proportion. You still have Burning Speed. You still have Lightning Flash. You still have FGS. Those aren’t changing. Even if the change ends up being dramatic enough to genuinely harm ele mobility, you could swap to staff (while out of combat, just make sure you don’t get jumped unaware) and have perma-swiftness + FGS + Burning Retreat. This isn’t like reducing confusion and retaliation damage by 50%. I’d be hesitant to put it in the same category as changing Revealed from 3 seconds to 4 (and I hear that’s being changed back for PvE/WvW?).

look lets be honest here. Debate will ensue and some of us will be Ok. We have alts and other toons we play. I will tell you now this is a set killer. DD ele is Ok at one thing and that’s roaming. It is nigh useless in siege. Its not very good in zerg. Its got bad burst DPS output. It roams. Fact is we can argue all day some of us will see the big picture others won’t. I get that. 2 months from now if this nerf goes in the the set will be dead in WvW. This isn’t hysterics or anger or anything like that it is just the way it is going to be. Players aren’t stupid. DD ele without its mobility is senseless set. Some people will quit over the changes most wont but the set is slated for execution in WvW.

Another thing mentioning switching to staff ooc (I mean really?) and having perma swiftness is sigh…it shows lack of knowledge off the class and roaming mechanics.

Also for all you who say its Ok I would love to see video of you right now going into WvW and restraining yourself from using RtL after you use without hitting something for another 20 seconds past the cool down. Seriously go out and try it and come back and say the same thing. I dare anyone of you to even attempt it.

BlackBeard.2873:

The end result is that if you want to roam, find another class. You will be found, caught, and killed on your ele. Your only defense will be to waypoint when seen.

Basically this. Honestly though, it’s okay, with the WXP patch zergballin has become the only way to roll anyway. I’ll just be rollin S/F and hanging with the ball, when I play my ele anyway, gonna have to dust off my boring old thief if I want to roam. Wonder what I’ll switch to in 6 months when they realize S/F is “op”. (mist form+heal op? hm, wait till you meet obsidian flesh…..)

Thrashbarg.9820:

BlackBeard.2873:

The end result is that if you want to roam, find another class. You will be found, caught, and killed on your ele. Your only defense will be to waypoint when seen.

Basically this. Honestly though, it’s okay, with the WXP patch zergballin has become the only way to roll anyway. I’ll just be rollin S/F and hanging with the ball, when I play my ele anyway, gonna have to dust off my boring old thief if I want to roam. Wonder what I’ll switch to in 6 months when they realize S/F is “op”. (mist form+heal op? hm, wait till you meet obsidian flesh…..)

Actually /F bunker is pretty insane. I know why most people don’t play it but I have seen some folks go to town with it and condition damage.

TheGuy.3568:

Thrashbarg.9820:

BlackBeard.2873:

The end result is that if you want to roam, find another class. You will be found, caught, and killed on your ele. Your only defense will be to waypoint when seen.

Basically this. Honestly though, it’s okay, with the WXP patch zergballin has become the only way to roll anyway. I’ll just be rollin S/F and hanging with the ball, when I play my ele anyway, gonna have to dust off my boring old thief if I want to roam. Wonder what I’ll switch to in 6 months when they realize S/F is “op”. (mist form+heal op? hm, wait till you meet obsidian flesh…..)

Actually /F bunker is pretty insane. I know why most people don’t play it but I have seen some folks go to town with it and condition damage.

Haven’t tried it with condition build, but I may give that a try.

It works great with my hybrid burst build. Mobility obviously makes it less than ideal for soloing, but with a group it’s actually pretty cool. I do fine in 1v1s with it (it’s actually better than D/D against many builds) but it’s hard to disengage from 1vXs where the “X” keeps growing, as is common in WvW.

D/F seems almost like an unintended weapon combo or something. Focus is pretty much a 900 range weapon, 2 ranged disables and 2 projectile avoid skills kind of suggest it does best keeping enemies at range, but to deal damage with daggers it needs melee range.

The best gap closer on mainhand dagger is in earth, but the main damage there is really bad compared to fire or air. Using magnetic leap then swapping to deal damage locks you out of focus’ best defensive abilities for the full cooldown as soon as you get in melee range, dangerous. Okay, that’s far enough off topic…..

On topic:

Too many balance changes all at once. It’s not possible to gather any useful data on how one change will affect balance to an equation when several changes are made at the same time. Any single one of these changes could have brought the “op” bunker elementalist more into balance, but now we’ll never know.

IMO they are all off track, as they nerf more viable builds than just the heal/bunker, the best fix would just have been a reduction to the scaling of healing power as it affects self healing along with the internal CD on cleansing water, which should have always been there and I consider that basically a bug fix.

When cooking, if a dish tastes like it could use a bit of seasoning, add a bit of salt and taste test it. Don’t throw in a bunch of garlic and jalapenos all at once. Cooking can teach much about life in general.

Azunai.1065:

I personally played D/D ele sicne release, got my 2 incinator and full ascended trinkets

So now they tell me my build is no longer viable due to
Mist Form: No utilities or heals can be cast for the duration of this skill.
Ride the Lightning: Now recharges 40 seconds out of combat after use, 20 seconds if you hit a target with it
Signet of Restoration: Reduced passive heal, unknown amount
Water Grandmaster Trait: Removes only one condition every five seconds now.

So they take away mobillity and Heal!?
Its ok to nerf a dd ele, but why in hell would you do it like this
out of my 7 Characters i played like 1.3k hour on my ele and like 150 on all the others together

now tell me one reason to keep playing GW2

Please quit and move to another game. Thanks!

So at some times it could take up a potential 20seconds to wipe the conditions from me… by then I will be dead I don’t need these removed later I need them removed now, otherwise I wouldnt be using the skills now would I?

On a complete out of topic question: What items are you using on the video you posted?

TheGuy.3568:

Syeria.4812:

Yuki Chuki.2457:

Well yeah, of course you can use RtL on criters and the like but that’s just.. kitten I mean.. it is a possible workaround but it sounds by no way intuitive, uncomplicated or by any means fun. More like an unnecessary, boring chore. If we assume that you can use it nearly as often as before that way if you’re out of combat, why not just making this 40 second nerf only applying in combat? Then it wouldn’t be just plain annoing out of combat.

And Fiery Greatsword.. I don’t know. Sure it gives some mobility moves but you also get some sacrifices from it. You can only use it 1 out of 3 minutes. While you use it, you aren’t able to use RtL or Auras which grant you swiftness. And if you have to engage someone, chances are, the skill will be on cooldown.

Not saying RtL wasn’t a bit annyoing inside fights. But why not just nerf it there if that was the issue?
And even then I don’t know how/if that’s gonna work out alongside the Mistform nerf. Class with lowest armor and base HP and now they heavely nerf chances to get out of combat and the ability to heal while invulnerable at once? I don’t know, I really don’t know…. this just seems a bit rushed and I’d wish for them to come up with some slightly more elegant solutions or at least just nerf one aspect of survivability at a time and analyzing the impact rather than applying multiple nerfs that will hit hard and risk to overshoot like they did so many times in the past.

I’m not trying to imply there’s no effect from this change. The point I’m making is that many people are blowing it dramatically out of proportion. You still have Burning Speed. You still have Lightning Flash. You still have FGS. Those aren’t changing. Even if the change ends up being dramatic enough to genuinely harm ele mobility, you could swap to staff (while out of combat, just make sure you don’t get jumped unaware) and have perma-swiftness + FGS + Burning Retreat. This isn’t like reducing confusion and retaliation damage by 50%. I’d be hesitant to put it in the same category as changing Revealed from 3 seconds to 4 (and I hear that’s being changed back for PvE/WvW?).

look lets be honest here. Debate will ensue and some of us will be Ok. We have alts and other toons we play. I will tell you now this is a set killer. DD ele is Ok at one thing and that’s roaming. It is nigh useless in siege. Its not very good in zerg. Its got bad burst DPS output. It roams. Fact is we can argue all day some of us will see the big picture others won’t. I get that. 2 months from now if this nerf goes in the the set will be dead in WvW. This isn’t hysterics or anger or anything like that it is just the way it is going to be. Players aren’t stupid. DD ele without its mobility is senseless set. Some people will quit over the changes most wont but the set is slated for execution in WvW.

Another thing mentioning switching to staff ooc (I mean really?) and having perma swiftness is sigh…it shows lack of knowledge off the class and roaming mechanics.

Also for all you who say its Ok I would love to see video of you right now going into WvW and restraining yourself from using RtL after you use without hitting something for another 20 seconds past the cool down. Seriously go out and try it and come back and say the same thing. I dare anyone of you to even attempt it.

Think of it like this:

RtL is only accessible if you wear a dagger as your offhand, so that’s targeting VERY specific build there.

But changing utility skills and healing skills? That doesn’t only target a very specific build, it miniguns the entire class, and hilariously affects staff-support eles more than d/d eles, because for one thing, if you wield a staff you can’t wield a dagger too.

This means, the nerf is… well… too broad. They have the ability to program stuff to only affect things when you’re wearing certain equipments. Why not try that route instead?

Raestloz.7134:

Think of it like this:

RtL is only accessible if you wear a dagger as your offhand, so that’s targeting VERY specific build there.

this is not accurate. D/D is currently the only logical option to survive 1vs1 fights, it’s not like we have any other choice, so this catastrophe isn’t targeting “a very specific build” but ALL the builds a roamer/skirmisher relies upon.

Nikkinella.8254:

Looks like the whining thieves finally got their way. I can’t wait till they finally get hit by nerf after nerf so they can see what its like.

4-5 months ago in thieves forum

Looks like the whining ele’s finally got their way. I can’t wait till they finally get hit by nerf after nerf so they can see what its like.

See any resemblances?

Grevender.9235:

this is not accurate. D/D is currently the only logical option to survive 1vs1 fights, it’s not like we have any other choice, so this catastrophe isn’t targeting “a very specific build” but ALL the builds a roamer/skirmisher relies upon.

Right…

Grevender.9235:

Raestloz.7134:

Think of it like this:

RtL is only accessible if you wear a dagger as your offhand, so that’s targeting VERY specific build there.

this is not accurate. D/D is currently the only logical option to survive 1vs1 fights, it’s not like we have any other choice, so this catastrophe isn’t targeting “a very specific build” but ALL the builds a roamer/skirmisher relies upon.

I am under the impression that you’re describing what “very specific build” is, because duelist and skirmisher are pretty specific. Unless you mean there are multiple builds for duelist and skirmisher, because I don’t play those two, I exclusively play staff support (well, I have 2 daggers, but with magic find, you understand what they’re for)

Raestloz.7134:

I am under the impression that you’re describing what “very specific build” is, because duelist and skirmisher are pretty specific. Unless you mean there are multiple builds for duelist and skirmisher, because I don’t play those two, I exclusively play staff support (well, I have 2 daggers, but with magic find, you understand what they’re for)

You are confusing “role” with “build”, which is an error;
A build is the result of summing up gear (armor + trinkets + sigils + runes), trait lines, sinergies AND weapons set.
There SHOULD be multiple builds for all roles, unfortunately devs didn’t pull out more than two or three viables for Elementalist, all tied mostly to Arcana and Water traits lines.

Should have just left RTL alone with the change from 1500 to 1200 range.

Whether it was intended to be that way or not, it’s a pretty big change that should have been left to play out standalone first.

Folks – if you play D/D, you have no reason to complain. it was too good. for the rest of us, who are getting thumped because every unskilled freak ran D/D, and now we find that our staff or S/D builds are getting nailed, yeah, we have a reasonable beef.

And, as always, be glad you don’t main a ranger.

stale.9785:

Folks – if you play D/D, you have no reason to complain. it was too good. for the rest of us, who are getting thumped because every unskilled freak ran D/D, and now we find that our staff or S/D builds are getting nailed, yeah, we have a reasonable beef.

And, as always, be glad you don’t main a ranger.

I’d like to main a ranger right now. I’d certainly be getting around faster.

Also, many of the better bunker eles run S/D, not D/D in tpvp. Not because it’s harder to use (it isn’t), because it’s better at being a bunker. It’s just that D/D is repeated so much on the forums, people have accepted that it must be true.

Minion of Vey.4398:

stale.9785:

Folks – if you play D/D, you have no reason to complain. it was too good. for the rest of us, who are getting thumped because every unskilled freak ran D/D, and now we find that our staff or S/D builds are getting nailed, yeah, we have a reasonable beef.

And, as always, be glad you don’t main a ranger.

I’d like to main a ranger right now. I’d certainly be getting around faster.

Also, many of the better bunker eles run S/D, not D/D in tpvp. Not because it’s harder to use (it isn’t), because it’s better at being a bunker. It’s just that D/D is repeated so much on the forums, people have accepted that it must be true.

Go for it, just accept that your damage will be 40% less than any other classes, for 45 seconds out of every minute. Also accept that your iconic weapon (longbow) is so useless it’s a joke.

Then again, we ele’s have staff, which is in the same boat. At least ele can be fixed though. Until the option to roll a ranger without a pet happens, rangers are still perma-broke.

EDIT: I personally would prefer to run staff on my ele, but run S/D because staff damage is so pathetic. But all ele’s are getting nailed – it’s just that D/D is getting nailed less than the rest of us.

And yes, ele’s are still in a far better place than rangers (outside of organised PvP, which I don’t do. If I wanted to play call of teabag, i’d buy an xbox.)

EDIT: question? The common thought is that you can’t hit anyone in PvP with scepter attacks. If more are running this, that can’t be true, eh?

stale.9785:

EDIT: question? The common thought is that you can’t hit anyone in PvP with scepter attacks. If more are running this, that can’t be true, eh?

Minion of Vey.4398:

Also, many of the better bunker eles run S/D, not D/D in tpvp. Not because it’s harder to use (it isn’t), because it’s better at being a bunker. It’s just that D/D is repeated so much on the forums, people have accepted that it must be true.

Bunkering in tPvP is about standing in a tiny circle. Scepter is much better at that sort of bunkering than main-hand dagger. Better heal, free +250 toughness, 2 blinds. It’s not so much about landing dragon’s tooth and phoenix, (the damage skills everyone complains about being hard to land) as simply using them to force enemies to move out of the cap circle is effective.

Dagger is better for mobility and sometimes damage, but I prefer scepter in fights when my enemy isn’t going to just run like a wuss or outnumber me 5:1 or more.

We really, really need a public test server. It’s pretty obvious the Arenanet Devs doing profession balance are so over-whelmed that they just aren’t able to approach balance in a proper manner. Adding a Public Test Server will help crowdsource the tuning process and provide real feedback on the effects of nerfs/buffs on viability, playability and enjoyability.

Fiontar.4695:

We really, really need a public test server. It’s pretty obvious the Arenanet Devs doing profession balance are so over-whelmed that they just aren’t able to approach balance in a proper manner. Adding a Public Test Server will help crowdsource the tuning process and provide real feedback on the effects of nerfs/buffs on viability, playability and enjoyability.

From what I’ve read on the forums, the “balancers” are only 2 people, who play Thief and Warrior. We’re getting about what one would expect from that.

stale.9785:

EDIT: question? The common thought is that you can’t hit anyone in PvP with scepter attacks. If more are running this, that can’t be true, eh?

It’s more that Water Trident, Rock Barrier, and the two blinds provide a good deal of defense. Dragon’s Tooth doesn’t hit (unless you use Signet of Earth or you manage to follow up with Earthquake or something), Phoenix doesn’t hit at range, and so on.

stale.9785:

From what I’ve read on the forums, the “balancers” are only 2 people, who play Thief and Warrior. We’re getting about what one would expect from that.

Interesting perspective, seeing as those classes are generally considered to be at the bottom of the barrel in SPvP.

Chaosky.5276:

stale.9785:

EDIT: question? The common thought is that you can’t hit anyone in PvP with scepter attacks. If more are running this, that can’t be true, eh?

It’s more that Water Trident, Rock Barrier, and the two blinds provide a good deal of defense. Dragon’s Tooth doesn’t hit (unless you use Signet of Earth or you manage to follow up with Earthquake or something), Phoenix doesn’t hit at range, and so on.

stale.9785:

From what I’ve read on the forums, the “balancers” are only 2 people, who play Thief and Warrior. We’re getting about what one would expect from that.

Interesting perspective, seeing as those classes are generally considered to be at the bottom of the barrel in SPvP.

Ah, but SPvP is a minutely small – as in, very, very few people – sample of the playerbase. In every other venue, warrior is king. In wvw, thieves should still only die if they’re not paying attention.

Look at the SotG updates that we know about – Thief; Revealed is getting reduced, more boon hate is being added, and nothing is being done to address the stupidly high damage/movement/stealth deal they have.

Warriors; have the highest damage, HP, and armour available in game, and now they’re being given unblockable attacks and boon hate, along with rifle being in every way superior to a ranger’s longbow, banners being far superior to spirits… I could go on, but I shouldn’t have to. Roll a warrior, and discover it’s easy mode for every aspect of the game aside from PvP.

Azunai.1065:

Thief is going to get buffed
new skill that “steals” boons for 1 initative

that is half true, the skill does cost 1 initiative but is the second ability of a chain, the first ability costs 3 initiative and since it is a chain you cant skip directly to the boon stealing ability, so its cost is 4 initiative.

If a thief spamms it, he will be able to steal 3 boons since the initiative pool is 12 (not traited)

Siv.4351:

It’s almost like anet are allergic to my money or something. Every time I get ready to drop some dosh on gems for the month they go and balls something up.

edit: silly forum ate my post attach edit.
But while its amusing to go rabid hyperbole mode with the news, its still pretty frustrating that they refuse to bring other builds/weaponsets up to the same level of usefulness and instead just focus on whats working now and constantly tweaking it. Whats working now should evolve over time as you fix and adjust other areas of the system that are completely useless, as the devs have already seen & commented on in the video. It only takes a minutes glance at the ele traitlines to see numerous ’turtle’s defense’ type traits.

well warriors and thieves have been on the bottom of the food chain for the last few months as Eles have been on the other end of it so… what did you expected?

Volrath.1473:

Azunai.1065:

Thief is going to get buffed
new skill that “steals” boons for 1 initative

that is half true, the skill does cost 1 initiative but is the second ability of a chain, the first ability costs 3 initiative and since it is a chain you cant skip directly to the boon stealing ability, so its cost is 4 initiative.

If a thief spamms it, he will be able to steal 3 boons since the initiative pool is 12 (not traited)

Thieves already have a skill that costs 4 initiative and hits twice, removing a boon.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flanking_Strike_

Are they just buffing that skill to steal the boon instead of just removing it, or adding another skill entirely?

more or less, Flanking strike nas a slow animation and the roll is… “random” so if you are mobile (as in take 1 side step) it misses.

What they are doing is basically replacing the Existing flanking Strike and dividing it into 2 chain skills the first will hit and evade and the animation (or so they say) has been improved and it is also faster, (not sure if the unblockable part will stay though), after hitting the first skill that costs 3 initiative the second skill appears in the bar, that skill will be called larcenous, costs 1 initiative and will steal 1 stack of boons and its remaining duration. From what i gathered it will be the last applied/refreshed boon.
Ofc needs to be in melee range.

I hope this helps