Tempest Feedback

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Posted by: MadRabbit.3179

MadRabbit.3179

I was one of the stronger opponents to Tempest during beta. A lot of my opinions still stand about the overall design and mechanics; however, I’ve accepted it’s here to stay, so I won’t waste any more time sharing those. There is a number of things I was wrong about now that I have had time to play it for a prolonged period of time and experiment with builds. I’ve gotten a more balanced opinion on the spec, so here is my feedback. Mostly going to focus on the negative, because the point here is to improve the spec.

1. Warhorn is kittening awful. I’ve not even going to try to make suggestions about how to improve it. It’s so awful on paper that I haven’t even bothered to work it into a build. Plenty of feedback in like dozen threads on the first page of the forums, so won’t go into it.

2. I find that staff ends up being the most viable for tempest, because it has the most abilities with cooldowns that exceed the overload cooldown, even after cooldown reduction on specific attunements. Even more so, these are the abilities that are the most valuable, like static field, gust of wind, magnetic aura and both water fields. In fact, honestly, these abilities are the main reasons you swap into air, water or earth, so getting locked out of these attunements for 20 seconds is manageable. On the flip side, dagger/dagger, which works off a mechanic of flipping quickly through attunements and using multiple abilities on short cooldown gets penalized the most by this, particularly if the elementalist specs into cooldown reduction. I don’t really know how to fix this; dropping the cd to 15 seconds might help, but then again, the divide between long and short cooldown abilities is so great that it doesn’t really do anything. It doesn’t do much when 3 of your abilties are under 15 seconds and the other 2 are over 20.

3. It would be nice to see the trait elements that are absolutely essential to successfully pulling off an overload without dying (protection on overload, stability on overload, swiftness on overload) built into the mechanic itself and the traits leveraged with other bonuses that give the spec a much needed increase in power.

4. It would also be nice if, at least, one grandmaster trait, provided some type of utility that increased damage for usage in PvE. Lucid Singularity could stand to go away; it only has value in PvP and nobody is going to take that over Element Bastion, because you can’t play Tempest as anything else except a bunker without ending up in a ball in a dark corner, wrapped in a blanket and sobbing uncontrollably, thanks to all the power creep of the other elite specs. Element Bastion provides some usefulness in PvE, but you aren’t going to run the shouts necessary to get full value out of it. All the shouts except for Feel the Burn have no value in PvE compared to taking Ice Bow, Gylph of Storms, a signet or a cantrip for increased survivability and mobility when pulling off overloads.

5. The blast finisher component in Earth overload is absolutely useless and here is why. We don’t have an instant cast utility skill that applies a field that we can use to combo with the overload. Literally, all of our fields are in other attunements and their duration makes it mathematically impossible to cast, swap attunements, charge the overload and then complete it’s cast time in order to hit our own field. The only value would be using it to hit another person’s combo field which to successfully do would require coordination over teamspeak. Even then, it’s difficult, because most combo fields have cast times while most finishers are instant. Coordinating a blast finisher with a cast time longer than the cast time of most combo fields is hard. Getting rid of it and replacing it with blind on pulse or increasing the protection duration to 2 seconds so you get stacking value with each pulse of the overload would make it much stronger.

6. The heal and condi clear on water overload needs to be increased in order to really make it worth using in PvP. In my experiences, the heal and condi clear per pulse just can’t keep up with the amount of damage and conditions being thrown around right now.

7. Air and Fire are pretty great. No real complaints there, but Air is kind of weird. It’s weird to have a damage focused overload in an attunement that largely provides control utility except for mainhand dagger. Particularly with a weapon like staff when the attunement is pretty much all about blinds, knockbacks and AoE dazes. It’s hard to justify sitting in the attunement for 5 seconds and do mediocre damage just to overload for damage and those situations where the crowd control is useful are rare in PvE. The only time I really use it with staff is when I am in air attunement already from traveling in open world and run into something with it off CD.

8. The design of Latent Stamina is in direct competition with the spec’s core mechanic. Does taking a trait that gives 3 seconds of vigor and 10 endurance on swap into water make much sense when the core mechanic increases the attunement cooldown by 20 seconds? The answer is no, Karl. No, it doesn’t.

9. Gale Song could stand to have some short amount of protection added to it. Edited: Actually, forget that. Just add an aura to Eye of the Storm so it procs the aura traits. It’s currently the weakest shout, besides Rebound.

10. Tempestous Aria is kind of in a weird place. Vigor and regeneration has so much value in PvP, it’s hard to take it as trait. In PvE, only one of the shouts provides enough value to give up an utility slot for.

11. Rebound is just impractical. The margin of error is so high that it ends up being an AoE aura on a very long cooldown. It would be great if we can scrap it all together and replace it with some kind of elite spec that adds some actual burst damage value to PvE.

12. Stability on shout would be huge. The biggest con I faced when I worked on builds for PvP is my traits and utility choices left me with very little stability, which was pretty bad for a bunker. Facing off against a juggernaut flamethrower engineer who is slowly widdling you down while decapping you constantly while his own stability leaves you with no real way to decap him is a pretty miserable experience.

And that’s about it. All in all, I don’t think it turned out that bad. I think does provide the potential to improve existing builds. However, so much else is way stronger right now, the spec often feels very underwhelming in comparison.

Rehabilitated Elementalist. Now, trolling the Thief forums with my math.

(edited by MadRabbit.3179)

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Posted by: Legendofzelda.1278

Legendofzelda.1278

so I don’t know what the devs would think of this, but here is an idea, it might help fix some of what you said too. So instead of completely changing overloads what if make over loads an f5 ability with a 10 second cd and then it does not really affect normal ele swapping and you also cant be spamming overloads; with this you could also change attunments possibly while overloading. Anyway just an idea.

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Posted by: Axialbloom.8109

Axialbloom.8109

Completely agree.

Add Sceptre being useless to the mix. This makes Warhorn an even worse option.

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Posted by: Axialbloom.8109

Axialbloom.8109

Add Rune of the Tempest being the worst rune set in the game.

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Posted by: Talindra.4958

Talindra.4958

I am enjoying the tempest new build.. plenty of aura mights and fury very strong support role. I am trying out sceptre and warhorn.. that gives perma 25 might and fury to party members.
loving overload as stun breaker

Champion Magus & Phantom, Demon’s Demise, The Archdesigner.
Death is Energy [DIE] – Gandara EU
Australia

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Posted by: Axialbloom.8109

Axialbloom.8109

I am enjoying the tempest new build.. plenty of aura mights and fury very strong support role. I am trying out sceptre and warhorn.. that gives perma 25 might and fury to party members.
loving overload as stun breaker

That is great that you like it, but other professions play that role without completely gimping their damage.

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Posted by: Lyger.5429

Lyger.5429

Very good points Madrabbit, hope we see some changes with this spec (zerker too). I agree Legend, I’ve wondered why they never took that route.

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Posted by: BlackBeard.2873

BlackBeard.2873

I am enjoying the tempest new build.. plenty of aura mights and fury very strong support role. I am trying out sceptre and warhorn.. that gives perma 25 might and fury to party members.
loving overload as stun breaker

Just FYI, Scepter with OH dagger or focus has already been able to stack up perma 25 might and fury since forever. If you take focus, you even provide more support in the form of large area hard-mitigation with swirling winds and obsidian flesh for resses.

Honestly, I am not sure what is more useless: the fire aura on OH focus or Heat Sync on OH Warhorn. Its kinda like the competition between shatterstone and the Air #5 skill on OH Warhorn for worst skill in the game. If you take scepter/wh you get to enjoy 3 skills that are basically non-skills.

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Posted by: Wolfric.9380

Wolfric.9380

I tried S/WH instead of my S/F … Unless you want extra healing in water focus is much better … Eh and fire aura on focus is good with tempest … Well the CD is way to long but ….
I also enjoy tempest. I feel a bit damage loss but playability is better then with arcane. It´s a bit diffrent so a relearning but for me an easy one. I am finetuning my equipement now.

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Posted by: BlackBeard.2873

BlackBeard.2873

fire aura on focus is good with tempest … Well the CD is way to long but ….

The thing is, the fire aura itself is still trash, especially as a #5 skill on a 40s CD. All that it is good for is the traits (and Signet of Restoration) that it procs. Previously, when I played fresh air ele, I would joke it was only good b/c it kind of looked like arcane shield, and would sometimes make opponents hesitate for that reason.

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Posted by: xlion.3065

xlion.3065

Compared to Reaper (I main Necromancer but play all classes including Elementalist) it’s shocking how bad Tempest is. In the sense of how little it adds to the profession.

I’m desperately trying to find or make a real Tempest build, i. e. something that uses a lot of the new Tempest abilities and feels really different, but it’s frustrating .

Either I get a build that plays pretty much as what Elementalists can already do or I get something that is complete crap (Warhorn?) The only “new” build seems to be Shout Staff

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Posted by: Xillllix.3485

Xillllix.3485

I was one of the stronger opponents to Tempest during beta. A lot of my opinions still stand about the overall design and mechanics; however, I’ve accepted it’s here to stay, so I won’t waste any more time sharing those. There is a number of things I was wrong about now that I have had time to play it for a prolonged period of time and experiment with builds. I’ve gotten a more balanced opinion on the spec, so here is my feedback. Mostly going to focus on the negative, because the point here is to improve the spec.

1. Warhorn is kittening awful. I’ve not even going to try to make suggestions about how to improve it. It’s so awful on paper that I haven’t even bothered to work it into a build. Plenty of feedback in like dozen threads on the first page of the forums, so won’t go into it.

2. I find that staff ends up being the most viable for tempest, because it has the most abilities with cooldowns that exceed the overload cooldown, even after cooldown reduction on specific attunements. Even more so, these are the abilities that are the most valuable, like static field, gust of wind, magnetic aura and both water fields. In fact, honestly, these abilities are the main reasons you swap into air, water or earth, so getting locked out of these attunements for 20 seconds is manageable. On the flip side, dagger/dagger, which works off a mechanic of flipping quickly through attunements and using multiple abilities on short cooldown gets penalized the most by this, particularly if the elementalist specs into cooldown reduction. I don’t really know how to fix this; dropping the cd to 15 seconds might help, but then again, the divide between long and short cooldown abilities is so great that it doesn’t really do anything. It doesn’t do much when 3 of your abilties are under 15 seconds and the other 2 are over 20.

3. It would be nice to see the trait elements that are absolutely essential to successfully pulling off an overload without dying (protection on overload, stability on overload, swiftness on overload) built into the mechanic itself and the traits leveraged with other bonuses that give the spec a much needed increase in power.

4. It would also be nice if, at least, one grandmaster trait, provided some type of utility that increased damage for usage in PvE. Lucid Singularity could stand to go away; it only has value in PvP and nobody is going to take that over Element Bastion, because you can’t play Tempest as anything else except a bunker without ending up in a ball in a dark corner, wrapped in a blanket and sobbing uncontrollably, thanks to all the power creep of the other elite specs. Element Bastion provides some usefulness in PvE, but you aren’t going to run the shouts necessary to get full value out of it. All the shouts except for Feel the Burn have no value in PvE compared to taking Ice Bow, Gylph of Storms, a signet or a cantrip for increased survivability and mobility when pulling off overloads.

5. The blast finisher component in Earth overload is absolutely useless and here is why. We don’t have an instant cast utility skill that applies a field that we can use to combo with the overload. Literally, all of our fields are in other attunements and their duration makes it mathematically impossible to cast, swap attunements, charge the overload and then complete it’s cast time in order to hit our own field. The only value would be using it to hit another person’s combo field which to successfully do would require coordination over teamspeak. Even then, it’s difficult, because most combo fields have cast times while most finishers are instant. Coordinating a blast finisher with a cast time longer than the cast time of most combo fields is hard. Getting rid of it and replacing it with blind on pulse or increasing the protection duration to 2 seconds so you get stacking value with each pulse of the overload would make it much stronger.

6. The heal and condi clear on water overload needs to be increased in order to really make it worth using in PvP. In my experiences, the heal and condi clear per pulse just can’t keep up with the amount of damage and conditions being thrown around right now.

7. Air and Fire are pretty great. No real complaints there, but Air is kind of weird. It’s weird to have a damage focused overload in an attunement that largely provides control utility except for mainhand dagger. Particularly with a weapon like staff when the attunement is pretty much all about blinds, knockbacks and AoE dazes. It’s hard to justify sitting in the attunement for 5 seconds and do mediocre damage just to overload for damage and those situations where the crowd control is useful are rare in PvE. The only time I really use it with staff is when I am in air attunement already from traveling in open world and run into something with it off CD.

8. The design of Latent Stamina is in direct competition with the spec’s core mechanic. Does taking a trait that gives 3 seconds of vigor and 10 endurance on swap into water make much sense when the core mechanic increases the attunement cooldown by 20 seconds? The answer is no, Karl. No, it doesn’t.

9. Gale Song could stand to have some short amount of protection added to it. Edited: Actually, forget that. Just add an aura to Eye of the Storm so it procs the aura traits. It’s currently the weakest shout, besides Rebound.

10. Tempestous Aria is kind of in a weird place. Vigor and regeneration has so much value in PvP, it’s hard to take it as trait. In PvE, only one of the shouts provides enough value to give up an utility slot for.

11. Rebound is just impractical. The margin of error is so high that it ends up being an AoE aura on a very long cooldown. It would be great if we can scrap it all together and replace it with some kind of elite spec that adds some actual burst damage value to PvE.

12. Stability on shout would be huge. The biggest con I faced when I worked on builds for PvP is my traits and utility choices left me with very little stability, which was pretty bad for a bunker. Facing off against a juggernaut flamethrower engineer who is slowly widdling you down while decapping you constantly while his own stability leaves you with no real way to decap him is a pretty miserable experience.

And that’s about it. All in all, I don’t think it turned out that bad. I think does provide the potential to improve existing builds. However, so much else is way stronger right now, the spec often feels very underwhelming in comparison.

I agree with everything you listed. I think most of us are in consensus here that Tempest doesn’t quite work.

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Posted by: Glenstorm.4059

Glenstorm.4059

Harmonious Conduit should still be baseline I feel.

Fear the might of SHATTERSTONE.

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Posted by: Wolfric.9380

Wolfric.9380

and shouts instant including rebound …

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Posted by: MadRabbit.3179

MadRabbit.3179

Compared to Reaper (I main Necromancer but play all classes including Elementalist) it’s shocking how bad Tempest is. In the sense of how little it adds to the profession.

I’m desperately trying to find or make a real Tempest build, i. e. something that uses a lot of the new Tempest abilities and feels really different, but it’s frustrating .

Either I get a build that plays pretty much as what Elementalists can already do or I get something that is complete crap (Warhorn?) The only “new” build seems to be Shout Staff

This is essentially what I run in PvP at the moment and the experience can honestly be summed up by this section of the article…

Counter Pressured by

Everything except full on support bunkers. While staff Elementalist – and this build in particular – has a lot of sustain through healing, boons, evades, and kite-ability, it is squishy for a bunker. It needs to actively maintain its defenses by constantly moving, constantly cycling attunements, and never stop casting except when reviving or stomping.

You have the potential to live a really long time, but you don’t just have much of an impact on the battlefield compared to the power of the other builds. Your sustain and support doesn’t keep up, your teammates eventually die and then you eventually die.

Rehabilitated Elementalist. Now, trolling the Thief forums with my math.

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Posted by: MadRabbit.3179

MadRabbit.3179

Additional feedback:

There is a general feeling of roughness and awkwardness from the transition into a new attunement and into an overload. After contemplating why this is, I think it’s because the average collective cast time of abilities is about 4 seconds which leaves this awkward 1 second where you just kind of auto attack and do nothing while you wait for the overload. I think reducing the overload charge time to 4 seconds (matching it’s cast time) would smooth this out a lot.

Rehabilitated Elementalist. Now, trolling the Thief forums with my math.

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Posted by: MadRabbit.3179

MadRabbit.3179

Add Rune of the Tempest being the worst rune set in the game.

Yeah, I don’t really get this rune set. I mean, maybe there is this plethora of stun breaks available to tempest that I am not fully realizing, but in the builds I made, the overall count was pretty low.

You mostly end up with Gale Song and Tempest Defense being your two proccing stun breaks. You can’t take Earth’s Embrace because you need the protection on aura. You can’t run eye of the storm, because you need as many shout based auras as you can fit and if you are going to give up a slot, a cantrip is still a better choice.

Rehabilitated Elementalist. Now, trolling the Thief forums with my math.