Guild Wars 2

Another thread to collect feedback guys, but in a different format. I would like to know what was/is the desired role for tempest, and what role do you guys think base ele lacks most and could be fulfilled by tempest?

@Edit
You can post range factor, damage type, damage/support role, and other mechanics you would like to see (though these aren’t possible at this stage).

Mid-range (at ~500 range on average, but moving back and forth is fine) support would be my desired role for tempest.

I think it’s a good mix of support/condi. Been testing it with Settler and Apothecary gear and it looks promising.

Ele already has enough support and bunker specs.
The class has been missing a viable condition and viable ranged nuker spec since release.
It’s maddening that our first new trait line since release almost mirrors the auramancer I have been playing since release.

Taldren.7523:

Ele already has enough support and bunker specs.
The class has been missing a viable condition and viable ranged nuker spec since release.
It’s maddening that our first new trait line since release almost mirrors the auramancer I have been playing since release.

That’s true, a condi spec would be nice. As for nuker, I thought staff was supposed to fill that role

d/d tempest aura support / dmg and d/wh aura support healing support i think are the main rolls tempest is going to play.

Adrian Guardian.9480:

Taldren.7523:

Ele already has enough support and bunker specs.
The class has been missing a viable condition and viable ranged nuker spec since release.
It’s maddening that our first new trait line since release almost mirrors the auramancer I have been playing since release.

That’s true, a condi spec would be nice. As for nuker, I thought staff was supposed to fill that role

Staff is a support weapon. Always has been. Again, Ele has already had its fill with support/bunker.

Taldren.7523:

Adrian Guardian.9480:

Taldren.7523:

Ele already has enough support and bunker specs.
The class has been missing a viable condition and viable ranged nuker spec since release.
It’s maddening that our first new trait line since release almost mirrors the auramancer I have been playing since release.

That’s true, a condi spec would be nice. As for nuker, I thought staff was supposed to fill that role

Staff is a support weapon. Always has been. Again, Ele has already had its fill with support/bunker.

haha that made me giggle yes its our support weapon but its also our hardest hitting weapon with massive aoe dmg, its as close as a ranged nuker your gunna get on ele without the numbers being insanee :P

gereden.6983:

haha that made me giggle yes its our support weapon but its also our hardest hitting weapon with massive aoe dmg, its as close as a ranged nuker your gunna get on ele without the numbers being insanee :P

Staff is only a nuker in PvE where mobs stay standing in the fields (laval font mostly.) In PvP players aren’t stupid and walk out. Staff is used for the healing and CC not damage.

My desired role for this specialization was a very mobile gameplay and access to condi. damage in a more sustained way. I’ve played with Rune of Balthazar and I’m fully confident this MIGHT be possible if they add a trait more tightly tied to burning or condi. damage. As for healing… people claim Heat Sync surpasses healing builds with staff, but they forgot how strong staff controls are due to them being ground-targeted from a 1,200 range. Staff eles will continue to be strong, even if we drop something for Tempest spec, warhorn doesn’t equal staff in healing.

I just want to be relevent in a frontline.

I already suggestet to swap the unneccessay vigor on water attune for a flat 5% condi damage and healing power from vitality. At least something fiting and a bit condi help.

The last thing i wanted was another close range support role, so tempest literally could not have been worse in my view.

Bad concept, bad implementation.

I would have liked a highly mobile ranged control oriented caster with minimal support, that could have made a decent alternative to staff in wvw.

scerevisiae.1972:

I would have liked a highly mobile ranged control oriented caster with minimal support, that could have made a decent alternative to staff in wvw.

This a thousand times this.

so an offhand 900 range heavy control/condition weapon that fits perfectly to scepter …..

morrolan.9608:

scerevisiae.1972:

I would have liked a highly mobile ranged control oriented caster with minimal support, that could have made a decent alternative to staff in wvw.

This a thousand times this.

It’s what I wanted too.

tempest is the dude in the middle of the zerg or team, supporting through heals and boons.

therefore he should be mid/close range

tostadude.9214:

tempest is the dude in the middle of the zerg or team, supporting through heals and boons.

therefore he should be mid/close range

that’s what D/D and D/F already do, very well. thing is, we’ve all been doing it already for 3 years.

noone wants a copy/paste with a few new animations, we need something new.

Will you guys play tempest if it doesn’t offer an offensive setup on pair with existing choices?

Not unless the support outshines what we have so we win a 2:2 buddy fight.
My measurement is the small team 2-3 player setup. Not 5+ or PvE.
For me its not so far away. Speed and -20% shout CDR reduction an off we go.

Valento.9852:

Will you guys play tempest if it doesn’t offer an offensive setup on pair with existing choices?

Of course, but as Wolfric pointed out, the healing/support needs to be better than our current options.

I really enjoyed the role of a support Auramancer and my experiences with it in VB during BWE2 were pretty fun. It just needs some more dev love as I think it’s still pretty rough around the edges.

Valento.9852:

Will you guys play tempest if it doesn’t offer an offensive setup on pair with existing choices?

Not if it can offer some good support to make up for it. I mean, I probably wouldn’t play it very much, but at least it wouldn’t be bad. What it really needs is to offer damage AND support so Eles can pick depending on their playstyle. The Herald can do both pretty well, but all the Tempest seems to have is an Auramancer build; not exactly variety is it? Let alone a storm caller.
It’s not like auras are that great anyway. Most of their effects require you to tank hits which isn’t what an Ele wants to happen in the first place.

Team support with boons/auras/heals/condi removals. D/W with Celestial amulet and Soldier runes, Water/Aracane/Tempest works great in PvP.

I had the feeling that we would have like a lot of access to Super Speed, but our damage wouldn’t be that great. As it stands it looks like another boon-sharer. Not that it’s bad, but we can do it already, it’s not different. We had this auramancer before, so again it’s not new, just reused a now defunct gameplay (due to Earth changes).

I think it’s important to keep in mind that the Tempest’s role is not likely to change. It is intended to be a skirmish range damage/support role, and while they might make it better at doing that, I think it’s almost impossible that it would ever do anything entirely different from that.

Where this discussion could have value is in what the NEXT Elementalist elite spec should be about, what role should the Elementalist get next, after the Tempest?

Ohoni.6057:

I think it’s important to keep in mind that the Tempest’s role is not likely to change. It is intended to be a skirmish range damage/support role, and while they might make it better at doing that, I think it’s almost impossible that it would ever do anything entirely different from that.

A shift to condition damage is still possible – decrease direct dmg and bump burning on wildfire, replace vuln and some dmg on lightning orb with torment, replace blast finisher on sand squall or vulnerability on dust storm with bleed, add bleeding to overload earth and aftershock – and tada you’ve the condi tempest. Shifting damage to support ratio should equally still a possibility.

Curious why people rarely talk about just making it possible to dodge while overloading. It wouldn’t be the first channeled skill that let’s you dodge during its cast.

And if you want to separate it from evasive arcana, just make a mechanic like earth overload and give a bar while overloading that you can use as a resource to protect yourself that you activate via the dodge key.

A shift to condition damage is still possible – decrease direct dmg and bump burning on wildfire, replace vuln and some dmg on lightning orb with torment, replace blast finisher on sand squall or vulnerability on dust storm with bleed, add bleeding to overload earth and aftershock – and tada you’ve the condi tempest. Shifting damage to support ratio should equally still a possibility.

Maaaaybe? But isn’t a burn Ele already doing pretty well?

I dunno, I have been asking myself how they could even think that comping up with a close range support spec would bring something new for ele. Have they not played the game for the past year and a half? The only thing I can think of is that they’re planning on nerfing d/d ele to an unviable state and replace it with tempest.

3 flies at once with trashing mainhand dagger.

1.) Scepter becomes more used when mainhand D is away
2.) OP D/D PvP ele is gone.
3.) Prepared for sword as next elite close combat mainhand …

………

Wolfric.9380:

3 flies at once with trashing mainhand dagger.

1.) Scepter becomes more used when mainhand D is away
2.) OP D/D PvP ele is gone.
3.) Prepared for sword as next elite close combat mainhand …

………

I have a strong feeling that your going to see d/d tempest replaces d/d ele in spvp.
Having heal on auras more protection / stronger protection and shots (most likely the rebound shout is going to be very powerful for holding points will become the best eliet that ele over all can use).

Jski.6180:

Wolfric.9380:

3 flies at once with trashing mainhand dagger.

1.) Scepter becomes more used when mainhand D is away
2.) OP D/D PvP ele is gone.
3.) Prepared for sword as next elite close combat mainhand …

………

I have a strong feeling that your going to see d/d tempest replaces d/d ele in spvp.
Having heal on auras more protection / stronger protection and shots (most likely the rebound shout is going to be very powerful for holding points will become the best eliet that ele over all can use).

That is quite an opinion, because, in practice (and maybe even on paper), there really is no reason to take shouts over cantrips for bunkering points.

Most point bunkering is done solo and your support consists of one or two players coming to your aid. In that scenario, having powerful self sustain over shout skills that only get their full value when they hit a group of players is much more valuable.

In fact, having a 5v5 team fight in conquest is pretty rare. Maybe you can get some value from a full set of shouts in a deathmatch. Outside of that, they get their most value in a large group setting like a WvW zerg.

Maybe, tempest will find a useful role in stronghold.

MadRabbit.3179:

Jski.6180:

Wolfric.9380:

3 flies at once with trashing mainhand dagger.

1.) Scepter becomes more used when mainhand D is away
2.) OP D/D PvP ele is gone.
3.) Prepared for sword as next elite close combat mainhand …

………

I have a strong feeling that your going to see d/d tempest replaces d/d ele in spvp.
Having heal on auras more protection / stronger protection and shots (most likely the rebound shout is going to be very powerful for holding points will become the best eliet that ele over all can use).

That is quite an opinion, because, in practice (and maybe even on paper), there really is no reason to take shouts over cantrips for bunkering points.

Most point bunkering is done solo and your support consists of one or two players coming to your aid. In that scenario, having powerful self sustain over shout skills that only get their full value when they hit a group of players is much more valuable.

In fact, having a 5v5 team fight in conquest is pretty rare. Maybe you can get some value from a full set of shouts in a deathmatch. Outside of that, they get their most value in a large group setting like a WvW zerg.

Maybe, tempest will find a useful role in stronghold.

Its about self auras healing and getting the elite shout (if they make it into the new version) and using overloads to hold points. Auras heals become a good burst heal for your self. The elite shout sounds like its going to be “you cant kill me for x sec and when you try to you heal me” so it lets ele hold points and stay alive longer. As for overloads they tend to be the last move to pop as an finnisher or a life saver after the person your fighting has used up all of there chose. It becomes more of a chrn that dose more then cripal and you can move when using it.

Mightybird.6034:

gereden.6983:

haha that made me giggle yes its our support weapon but its also our hardest hitting weapon with massive aoe dmg, its as close as a ranged nuker your gunna get on ele without the numbers being insanee :P

Staff is only a nuker in PvE where mobs stay standing in the fields (laval font mostly.) In PvP players aren’t stupid and walk out. Staff is used for the healing and CC not damage.

The staff is used for both. In PvP, utilizing cc from yourself and team members (as well as proper placing of those AoE spells) will get people hit by them. It’s not as easy as in PvE obviously, but it’s certainly not impossible.

Jski.6180:

MadRabbit.3179:

Jski.6180:

Wolfric.9380:

3 flies at once with trashing mainhand dagger.

1.) Scepter becomes more used when mainhand D is away
2.) OP D/D PvP ele is gone.
3.) Prepared for sword as next elite close combat mainhand …

………

I have a strong feeling that your going to see d/d tempest replaces d/d ele in spvp.
Having heal on auras more protection / stronger protection and shots (most likely the rebound shout is going to be very powerful for holding points will become the best eliet that ele over all can use).

That is quite an opinion, because, in practice (and maybe even on paper), there really is no reason to take shouts over cantrips for bunkering points.

Most point bunkering is done solo and your support consists of one or two players coming to your aid. In that scenario, having powerful self sustain over shout skills that only get their full value when they hit a group of players is much more valuable.

In fact, having a 5v5 team fight in conquest is pretty rare. Maybe you can get some value from a full set of shouts in a deathmatch. Outside of that, they get their most value in a large group setting like a WvW zerg.

Maybe, tempest will find a useful role in stronghold.

Its about self auras healing and getting the elite shout (if they make it into the new version) and using overloads to hold points. Auras heals become a good burst heal for your self. The elite shout sounds like its going to be “you cant kill me for x sec and when you try to you heal me” so it lets ele hold points and stay alive longer. As for overloads they tend to be the last move to pop as an finnisher or a life saver after the person your fighting has used up all of there chose. It becomes more of a chrn that dose more then cripal and you can move when using it.

I have done quite a few builds with the build editor to try and make tempest work. With full clerics gear, the build editor calculated the heal from the auras at 1k a pop. Now, it’s possible the build editor is wrong or they may raise the numbers in the future, but as someone who plays staff bunker in PvP regularly, 1k a pop isn’t worth giving up the utility of cantrips.

Now, if I can get the shout to hit 5 people, that’s 5k a pop. That’s value. However, that scenario is a minority in PvP. You just don’t fight as a 5 man stack unless it’s a death match.

MAYBE the new Rebound will provide value, but you have to contend with the mobility of fiery greatsword or Earth/Water elemental which provides a lot of value when bunkering a point.

Mightybird.6034:

gereden.6983:

haha that made me giggle yes its our support weapon but its also our hardest hitting weapon with massive aoe dmg, its as close as a ranged nuker your gunna get on ele without the numbers being insanee :P

Staff is only a nuker in PvE where mobs stay standing in the fields (laval font mostly.) In PvP players aren’t stupid and walk out. Staff is used for the healing and CC not damage.

Your reasoning seems correct, but only in certain scenarios. Yes, if you are roaming in WvW with plenty of open space to move, staff AoEs get hard in fights. But when bunkering a point where everyone is fighting over a very small space, the staff AoEs are very powerful. This is why staff celestial bunker is a contender to D/D in PvP.

This was what i said. The team support must have its full value in 2-3 man fights. If you calculate it for 5 and drop its self sustain/power acordingly the result is a spec without practial value. And in WvW Zerg there is chaos and usually its a number issue. The side with significant less players looses and not spec will help. You can´t “Balance” that.
So the traits must be made for small group combat WvW roaming, PvP and the new raids, where for raids its more on the raide side not character.

Wolfric.9380:

3 flies at once with trashing mainhand dagger.

1.) Scepter becomes more used when mainhand D is away
2.) OP D/D PvP ele is gone.
3.) Prepared for sword as next elite close combat mainhand …

………

Scepter is so kitten it’s more likely we’d see a shift to staff eles which were popular few months back.

MadRabbit.3179:

Jski.6180:

MadRabbit.3179:

Jski.6180:

Wolfric.9380:

3 flies at once with trashing mainhand dagger.

1.) Scepter becomes more used when mainhand D is away
2.) OP D/D PvP ele is gone.
3.) Prepared for sword as next elite close combat mainhand …

………

I have a strong feeling that your going to see d/d tempest replaces d/d ele in spvp.
Having heal on auras more protection / stronger protection and shots (most likely the rebound shout is going to be very powerful for holding points will become the best eliet that ele over all can use).

That is quite an opinion, because, in practice (and maybe even on paper), there really is no reason to take shouts over cantrips for bunkering points.

Most point bunkering is done solo and your support consists of one or two players coming to your aid. In that scenario, having powerful self sustain over shout skills that only get their full value when they hit a group of players is much more valuable.

In fact, having a 5v5 team fight in conquest is pretty rare. Maybe you can get some value from a full set of shouts in a deathmatch. Outside of that, they get their most value in a large group setting like a WvW zerg.

Maybe, tempest will find a useful role in stronghold.

Its about self auras healing and getting the elite shout (if they make it into the new version) and using overloads to hold points. Auras heals become a good burst heal for your self. The elite shout sounds like its going to be “you cant kill me for x sec and when you try to you heal me” so it lets ele hold points and stay alive longer. As for overloads they tend to be the last move to pop as an finnisher or a life saver after the person your fighting has used up all of there chose. It becomes more of a chrn that dose more then cripal and you can move when using it.

I have done quite a few builds with the build editor to try and make tempest work. With full clerics gear, the build editor calculated the heal from the auras at 1k a pop. Now, it’s possible the build editor is wrong or they may raise the numbers in the future, but as someone who plays staff bunker in PvP regularly, 1k a pop isn’t worth giving up the utility of cantrips.

Now, if I can get the shout to hit 5 people, that’s 5k a pop. That’s value. However, that scenario is a minority in PvP. You just don’t fight as a 5 man stack unless it’s a death match.

MAYBE the new Rebound will provide value, but you have to contend with the mobility of fiery greatsword or Earth/Water elemental which provides a lot of value when bunkering a point.

So out of 6 auras WH getting an aura 1k aoe healing is not good? That dose not count doable healing from shout auras becuse it apply the effect 2 times on-top of overloading in water to land a big heal fast and the heal effect of dagger main hand and wh off hand. There also the heal shout and if build right become a stander heal for every one (as in the amount from this heal will be as if the player pop there heal skill yet some one else did it for them.)

D/wh tempest has about 14? heals for about 1k to 5k+ with passive reg of about 150 hp per sec and near perma protection.

I honestly believed the Tempest trait line was designed to allow the user to focus more on one attunement while almost passively using all other attunements to boost your main one.

E.g. I wish to focus and spend most of my time in the water attunement and I would use the auras and buffs and overloads from other attunements as quickly as possible to give me that little extra boost before I re-enter water. (does that make sense? struggling to explain it myself nevermind you guys)

LeviQuiteQuirky.6892:

I honestly believed the Tempest trait line was designed to allow the user to focus more on one attunement while almost passively using all other attunements to boost your main one.

E.g. I wish to focus and spend most of my time in the water attunement and I would use the auras and buffs and overloads from other attunements as quickly as possible to give me that little extra boost before I re-enter water. (does that make sense? struggling to explain it myself nevermind you guys)

That’s the problem though, there’s nothing encouraging you to do this.
Most of your weapon skills are designed with Attunement Swapping in mind, hence the large cooldowns and the crappy auto-attacks.
Then we go into the traits and well, the Tempest is a mess that doesn’t work very well with the base Ele.

Malchior.5732:

That’s the problem though, there’s nothing encouraging you to do this.
Most of your weapon skills are designed with Attunement Swapping in mind, hence the large cooldowns and the crappy auto-attacks.
Then we go into the traits and well, the Tempest is a mess that doesn’t work very well with the base Ele.

I understand what you mean. I honestly feel like this is more of a step back and feels like an introductory noob-friendly trait line, just to give people more support in getting used to each individual attunement. The fact that it’s “Elite” baffles me a little as I feel it would be more useful before level 80

LeviQuiteQuirky.6892:

Malchior.5732:

That’s the problem though, there’s nothing encouraging you to do this.
Most of your weapon skills are designed with Attunement Swapping in mind, hence the large cooldowns and the crappy auto-attacks.
Then we go into the traits and well, the Tempest is a mess that doesn’t work very well with the base Ele.

I understand what you mean. I honestly feel like this is more of a step back and feels like an introductory noob-friendly trait line, just to give people more support in getting used to each individual attunement. The fact that it’s “Elite” baffles me a little as I feel it would be more useful before level 80

Is that a bad thing though? Even if it seems a more “introductory noob-friendly” set-up, there are also the more vet players that have played and learned current Ele but simply want the ability to “specialize one attunement”, be it for visual or for roleplay purposes or simply because they think it’s a fun diversion. If they really did make it so that Tempest supported a more “attunement lock” style of playing it or a “specialize in bolstering an attunement” style, it would actually be a large variant of what can be accomplished currently via multiple swapping.

Yeah, there would be conflict between swap sigils or the arcane line, but you know what else conflicts with swaps and arcane? Any trait that requires you to remain in a specific attunement to benefit from them. There are ways you could make Tempest aim to focus on such traits as well as benefit new styles of build. We just haven’t gotten that far and it’s unsure if the devs actually want to take it that direction.

I’m of the opinion the trait line can only benefit if it takes a completely different approach than arcane or even the base ele style. Even if some vets wouldn’t play such a spec, at least it’d be hugely different and you can decide to utilize it when you’re get bored of the multi-swap style.

Jski.6180:

MadRabbit.3179:

Jski.6180:

MadRabbit.3179:

Jski.6180:

Wolfric.9380:

3 flies at once with trashing mainhand dagger.

1.) Scepter becomes more used when mainhand D is away
2.) OP D/D PvP ele is gone.
3.) Prepared for sword as next elite close combat mainhand …

………

I have a strong feeling that your going to see d/d tempest replaces d/d ele in spvp.
Having heal on auras more protection / stronger protection and shots (most likely the rebound shout is going to be very powerful for holding points will become the best eliet that ele over all can use).

That is quite an opinion, because, in practice (and maybe even on paper), there really is no reason to take shouts over cantrips for bunkering points.

Most point bunkering is done solo and your support consists of one or two players coming to your aid. In that scenario, having powerful self sustain over shout skills that only get their full value when they hit a group of players is much more valuable.

In fact, having a 5v5 team fight in conquest is pretty rare. Maybe you can get some value from a full set of shouts in a deathmatch. Outside of that, they get their most value in a large group setting like a WvW zerg.

Maybe, tempest will find a useful role in stronghold.

Its about self auras healing and getting the elite shout (if they make it into the new version) and using overloads to hold points. Auras heals become a good burst heal for your self. The elite shout sounds like its going to be “you cant kill me for x sec and when you try to you heal me” so it lets ele hold points and stay alive longer. As for overloads they tend to be the last move to pop as an finnisher or a life saver after the person your fighting has used up all of there chose. It becomes more of a chrn that dose more then cripal and you can move when using it.

I have done quite a few builds with the build editor to try and make tempest work. With full clerics gear, the build editor calculated the heal from the auras at 1k a pop. Now, it’s possible the build editor is wrong or they may raise the numbers in the future, but as someone who plays staff bunker in PvP regularly, 1k a pop isn’t worth giving up the utility of cantrips.

Now, if I can get the shout to hit 5 people, that’s 5k a pop. That’s value. However, that scenario is a minority in PvP. You just don’t fight as a 5 man stack unless it’s a death match.

MAYBE the new Rebound will provide value, but you have to contend with the mobility of fiery greatsword or Earth/Water elemental which provides a lot of value when bunkering a point.

So out of 6 auras WH getting an aura 1k aoe healing is not good? That dose not count doable healing from shout auras becuse it apply the effect 2 times on-top of overloading in water to land a big heal fast and the heal effect of dagger main hand and wh off hand. There also the heal shout and if build right become a stander heal for every one (as in the amount from this heal will be as if the player pop there heal skill yet some one else did it for them.)

D/wh tempest has about 14? heals for about 1k to 5k+ with passive reg of about 150 hp per sec and near perma protection.

Compared to a 3 condition removal with aoe burn, invul, teleport or 6 seconds of stability and protection and a healing skill that cures 8 conditions and reclaims half of your health bar on a short cd? Yes, it’s absolutely not good when they are traited and grant you a self regen that’s comparable to the heal and vigor, which is a very strong boon.

Also, overloads only look good on paper, but not in practice. I treat them like they don’t exist, because against any halfway competant player, they don’t exist. With a pure shout and tempest build, you don’t have any stability to stop a light gust of winds thru the trees from disrupting your overload from completing the finish. Even if you specced into Earth and took stability on earth attunement, it would wear off before the overload was ready. You can’t use it to protect the channel like you can with ether renewal.

And you keep throwing out these seemingly objective measurements like “near perma protection” that aren’t actually quantifiable. I am assuming by this you are referencing some kind of Earth/Water/Tempest build where you get protection on aura. The duration of the protection is 3.25 seconds and is granted from abilities that have CDs ranging anywhere from 20 to 50 seconds. Even Sand Squall, which gives you 4.25 with the boon extension is on a 30 second cooldown. That is not “near perma protection” by any reasonable mathematical estimate.

Arcane spec alone will give you 5.5 seconds of protection to 5 players on earth attunement which is a 9 second cd. You will get more party protection uptime with this specialization alone with constant attunement swapping which tempest and overloading discourages.

At the moment, your arguments are just reinforcing my viewpoint that any positive viewpoints of tempest come from overzealous hype and not a critical objective comparison of what tempest offers vs what we already have.

MadRabbit.3179:

Jski.6180:

MadRabbit.3179:

Jski.6180:

MadRabbit.3179:

Jski.6180:

Wolfric.9380:

3 flies at once with trashing mainhand dagger.

1.) Scepter becomes more used when mainhand D is away
2.) OP D/D PvP ele is gone.
3.) Prepared for sword as next elite close combat mainhand …

………

I have a strong feeling that your going to see d/d tempest replaces d/d ele in spvp.
Having heal on auras more protection / stronger protection and shots (most likely the rebound shout is going to be very powerful for holding points will become the best eliet that ele over all can use).

That is quite an opinion, because, in practice (and maybe even on paper), there really is no reason to take shouts over cantrips for bunkering points.

Most point bunkering is done solo and your support consists of one or two players coming to your aid. In that scenario, having powerful self sustain over shout skills that only get their full value when they hit a group of players is much more valuable.

In fact, having a 5v5 team fight in conquest is pretty rare. Maybe you can get some value from a full set of shouts in a deathmatch. Outside of that, they get their most value in a large group setting like a WvW zerg.

Maybe, tempest will find a useful role in stronghold.

Its about self auras healing and getting the elite shout (if they make it into the new version) and using overloads to hold points. Auras heals become a good burst heal for your self. The elite shout sounds like its going to be “you cant kill me for x sec and when you try to you heal me” so it lets ele hold points and stay alive longer. As for overloads they tend to be the last move to pop as an finnisher or a life saver after the person your fighting has used up all of there chose. It becomes more of a chrn that dose more then cripal and you can move when using it.

I have done quite a few builds with the build editor to try and make tempest work. With full clerics gear, the build editor calculated the heal from the auras at 1k a pop. Now, it’s possible the build editor is wrong or they may raise the numbers in the future, but as someone who plays staff bunker in PvP regularly, 1k a pop isn’t worth giving up the utility of cantrips.

Now, if I can get the shout to hit 5 people, that’s 5k a pop. That’s value. However, that scenario is a minority in PvP. You just don’t fight as a 5 man stack unless it’s a death match.

MAYBE the new Rebound will provide value, but you have to contend with the mobility of fiery greatsword or Earth/Water elemental which provides a lot of value when bunkering a point.

So out of 6 auras WH getting an aura 1k aoe healing is not good? That dose not count doable healing from shout auras becuse it apply the effect 2 times on-top of overloading in water to land a big heal fast and the heal effect of dagger main hand and wh off hand. There also the heal shout and if build right become a stander heal for every one (as in the amount from this heal will be as if the player pop there heal skill yet some one else did it for them.)

D/wh tempest has about 14? heals for about 1k to 5k+ with passive reg of about 150 hp per sec and near perma protection.

Compared to a 3 condition removal with aoe burn, invul, teleport or 6 seconds of stability and protection and a healing skill that cures 8 conditions and reclaims half of your health bar on a short cd? Yes, it’s absolutely not good when they are traited and grant you a self regen that’s comparable to the heal and vigor, which is a very strong boon.

Also, overloads only look good on paper, but not in practice. I treat them like they don’t exist, because against any halfway competant player, they don’t exist. With a pure shout and tempest build, you don’t have any stability to stop a light gust of winds thru the trees from disrupting your overload from completing the finish. Even if you specced into Earth and took stability on earth attunement, it would wear off before the overload was ready. You can’t use it to protect the channel like you can with ether renewal.

And you keep throwing out these seemingly objective measurements like “near perma protection” that aren’t actually quantifiable. I am assuming by this you are referencing some kind of Earth/Water/Tempest build where you get protection on aura. The duration of the protection is 3.25 seconds and is granted from abilities that have CDs ranging anywhere from 20 to 50 seconds. Even Sand Squall, which gives you 4.25 with the boon extension is on a 30 second cooldown. That is not “near perma protection” by any reasonable mathematical estimate.

Arcane spec alone will give you 5.5 seconds of protection to 5 players on earth attunement which is a 9 second cd. You will get more party protection uptime with this specialization alone with constant attunement swapping which tempest and overloading discourages.

At the moment, your arguments are just reinforcing my viewpoint that any positive viewpoints of tempest come from overzealous hype and not a critical objective comparison of what tempest offers vs what we already have.

Have you tried it? I have it works other ppl have and are excited by the fact you can support heal as a tempest they even put together the full build and used it in raids.

Added note i am not even sure what class your talking about is it a mez becuse guards cant boon share there ability do have boons that are aoe but that not the same as boon sharing only mez and now tempest has that.

I am with Leo G. As tempest is, it should move straight to less attunement swaping.
This would give manny palyers a good feeling. None of the top 4 element riders need to use it and its totally against arcane spec line but i see no problem with that. Curently tempest is aready against arcane.
It might lower the skill floor for tempest eles, but even this is not a bad thing unless it gets OP.

I had two options in mind:
One is a weapon swap on 6-5 seconds instead of the elements swap. Looses skill diversity but gains a strong focus.

Second would be a trait named dormant elements:
You can´t trait arcane line.
You loose the ability to swap to untraited elements.
You permanently gain the passive abilities from untraited elements.

I think it woul work very well and feel good. Could be underpowered because it will need good autoattacks which eles lack. But i would give it a try an even put it in baseline. Tempest would immidiatlely become very diffrent in its feel and all the players that want elementalists more dedicated to an element will like it.

Jski.6180:

Have you tried it? I have it works other ppl have and are excited by the fact you can support heal as a tempest they even put together the full build and used it in raids.

Yes, I have for sPvP and I didn’t see any reason to take it over celestial staff or D/D. I will be trying it in WvW with a zerg next beta weekend.

I’ve also noticed that people seem to have a different standard of what “works” means when it comes to discussing tempest.

Jski.6180:

Added note i am not even sure what class your talking about is it a mez becuse guards cant boon share there ability do have boons that are aoe but that not the same as boon sharing only mez and now tempest has that.

0.o

Wolfric.9380:

I am with Leo G. As tempest is, it should move straight to less attunement swaping.
This would give manny palyers a good feeling. None of the top 4 element riders need to use it and its totally against arcane spec line but i see no problem with that. Curently tempest is aready against arcane.
It might lower the skill floor for tempest eles, but even this is not a bad thing unless it gets OP.

I had two options in mind:
One is a weapon swap on 6-5 seconds instead of the elements swap. Looses skill diversity but gains a strong focus.

Second would be a trait named dormant elements:
You can´t trait arcane line.
You loose the ability to swap to untraited elements.
You permanently gain the passive abilities from untraited elements.

I think it woul work very well and feel good. Could be underpowered because it will need good autoattacks which eles lack. But i would give it a try an even put it in baseline. Tempest would immidiatlely become very diffrent in its feel and all the players that want elementalists more dedicated to an element will like it.

See, I disagree with this idea and it’s also the primary reason I dislike tempest. All the other elite specializations take the class’s core mechanics and take them a step further. This idea and the mechanics of overlord are in indirect conflict with the elementalist’s core mechanic of attunement swap. We don’t get any additional class abilities, because of this central mechanic.

It’s effectively taking away from the class. It’s like an elite specialization that took away necro’s shroud without replacing it with anything or if the new berserker presented a mechanic where if warriors DID NOT use their adrenaline ability they would get access to some new sub par skill set.

I mean, really how do people defend this? “Just rotate into fire, burn all your abilities in under a second and then pew pew the enemy with auto attack for 4 seconds so you can use this situationally useful channeled ability that you have no way to protect from any hard CC besides a 75 second CD and as a result, get to suffer a self imposed chill effect that messes up your natural rotation.”

Everyone else gets a direct enhancement to their core mechanic and not this risk vs reward non-sense that conflicts with the class’s natural playstyle.

There is like a 100 ways you could enhance or change elementalist to improve it’s mechanics without this kind of silliness.

How about tempest has a trait that creates a storm in the area where the elementalist swaps attunements, matching the element of the attunement he is leaving? If you swap out of fire, you create a fire storm. The power of the storm can scale to the duration you were in the attunment, thus creating a weak storm if you were only in it for 1 second and a strong storm if you were in it for 5 seconds.

There. Boom. Done. A mechanic that doesn’t penalize the core mechanics, provides encouragement to stay in attunements longer in the form of a stronger storms and actually creates storms like a tempest should.

MadRabbit.3179:

Jski.6180:

Have you tried it? I have it works other ppl have and are excited by the fact you can support heal as a tempest they even put together the full build and used it in raids.

Yes, I have for sPvP and I didn’t see any reason to take it over celestial staff or D/D. I will be trying it in WvW with a zerg next beta weekend.

I’ve also noticed that people seem to have a different standard of what “works” means when it comes to discussing tempest.

Jski.6180:

Added note i am not even sure what class your talking about is it a mez becuse guards cant boon share there ability do have boons that are aoe but that not the same as boon sharing only mez and now tempest has that.

0.o

Still no idea what class your talking about lol. Any way i am wvw minded spvp is more about your team comp and team work so any thing works in spvp if your team is build for it. Wvw is a true testing ground becuse of the rng of what your going to fight its better to come from that point of view. You also have more control over your builds in wvw then in spvp. Tempest in the melee point of view works as long as they are with other melee.
Though now with the update it maybe better on its own then it was before though the heat sink thing (once we find out the boon list that it works with in full) may be a major nerf to the tempest. Though i must say its funny ppl even though the old heat sink was much stronger to being op ppl where calling it bad is odd to me and i think showing that ppl are not looking at facts so much but more going off emotion as in they hate the class to where nothing will make them think it good.