Guild Wars 2

ANET made us a question:

“So what kind of feedback are we looking for? (…) Do the elite specializations feel like they are creating an entirely new role for your main profession?”

Source: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-first-beta-weekend-event-begins-august-7/

For those who have played the Tempest already, how would you answer that question?

I am trying to finish work to get a chance to play it, but eager to know because that was one of my main issues with the Tempest specialization when presented to us (because I didn’t see any “entirely new role” for the elementalist).

Tempest does not have the tools to fill a new role. In pvp, it only works with a tanky, high-healing (due to melee range), boon-sharing build with some damage – that is already what d/d does. In wvw, it lacks the tools to survive melee combat (stability, leaps, blocks, invulns, defense in general) as either a group tank or a single-burst (ports, burst, invulns, blocks, stealth, mobility). In pve, it doesn’t provide hard mitigation as support (like focus does), and doesn’t do damage in any way.

If they want to open up new roles, they can choose from:
- Viable single-target medium-ranged dps to pair with scepter (and fix scepter), like mesmer OH pistol
- Heavy control (not just 2 control skills like every weapon has)
- Condition-damage focused
- In-combat mobility options (shorter leaps – less than RtL to get away, but have more of them)
- True melee combat MH(although this is tough due to lack of weapon-swap)
- Single target long-range, like ranger longbow and mesmer GS.

Jski.6180:

Every one who plays spvp needs to play only builds that are in tournaments? Are you sure your not asking for a dps build who can stay alive like d/d? That a viable build that can do dmg and keep going.

There are enough tourneys, that if something isn’t just strictly worse at filling a role than something else or doesn’t just get deleted, someone will run it.

If you play dps staff ele against good players, you are not gonna have a good time – I promise. It honestly isn’t viable if a player is smart b/c you can be made completely useless quite easily. In fact, 1 thief or mesmer can easily just 1-shot your from stealth at-will.

Well, I tried to make a build based around healing with auras. Using the trait that says “auras heal” (tempest grandmaster), it can theoretically put out a ton of healing, significantly more than the warrior healing signet’s passive anyway. Link is below.

http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgACeAW0Bvw~

Basically, what you will do is swap to an attunement, say fire for example. Cast whatever skills you want to and then channel the overload. Completing this channel gives an aura, which heals people through the trait (the trait doesn’t have a cooldown on the healing part, only on the frost aura proc).

Conveniently, it takes 5 seconds (wait for overload to become available) + 5 seconds (channel overload) to rotate through an attunement. This coincides with the base cooldown on attuning. Thus, you can do this:

Fire>Water>Air>Water>Earth>Water>Fire.etc (don’t overload water)

Combined with the healing shout which heals all allies, as well as the fire and water shouts (both of which apply auras) you can put out a good amount of sustained healing.

Of course the traditional sources of healing like attuning to water and evasive arcana are still there. That’s why you don’t overload water, so you don’t get locked out of it for too long (but obviously use the water overload if you really need to)

Also, I used trooper runes to help with condition clearing, since it is a supportive build.

For weapons use whatever you want, maybe warhorn for the boon sharing.

Edit: math. With 400 healing power, applying an aura heals for 680 health.
From overloading, you apply aura once per 10s, which is 68 hp/s
From “Feel the Burn”, you heal for 680 hp every 20s, which is 34 hp/s
From “Flash Freeze”, 680 hp per 25s, this is 27.2 hp/s
“Wash the Pain Away” is 3680 hp per 25s, that’s 147.2 hp/s
Attuning to water once per 10s is 1699 hp = 169 hp/s
Evasive Arcana is another 169 hp/s

Ignoring other healing effects from weapon auras, auras on proc, combo-field auras, regeneration, weapon skills, that’s ~600 hp/second to your entire group, which is not bad. It also removes lots of conditions and obviously gives people auras, which are great.

Admittedly the aura heal just doesn’t do that much in comparison to the last 3 sources of healing.

A more condi spec for eles but nothing extremely new.
It could be better.
A new role would be if they were given a new mainhand weapon.
You’ll see more Aura eles in PvE. In PvP? prob not, the overloads aren’t really worth the trouble since they don’t carry over on attunement swap.

Ele filled all rolls before there is nothing new tempest can fill. You do know ele is the jack of all trades job in gw2? Any way it looks like ele has more dmg potential where tempest has more support.

Jski.6180:

Ele filled all rolls before there is nothing new tempest can fill. You do know ele is the jack of all trades job in gw2? Any way it looks like ele has more dmg potential where tempest has more support.

I fail to see any viable dps spec in pvp. That was the role ele was missing and should have recieved, not another support spec. It’s pretty simple. really.

Laraley.7695:

Jski.6180:

Ele filled all rolls before there is nothing new tempest can fill. You do know ele is the jack of all trades job in gw2? Any way it looks like ele has more dmg potential where tempest has more support.

I fail to see any viable dps spec in pvp. That was the role ele was missing and should have recieved, not another support spec. It’s pretty simple. really.

Viable dps as an ele or as an tempest? Ele always had a viable dps build in spvp staff.

Jski.6180:

Laraley.7695:

Jski.6180:

Ele filled all rolls before there is nothing new tempest can fill. You do know ele is the jack of all trades job in gw2? Any way it looks like ele has more dmg potential where tempest has more support.

I fail to see any viable dps spec in pvp. That was the role ele was missing and should have recieved, not another support spec. It’s pretty simple. really.

Viable dps as an ele or as an tempest? Ele always had a viable dps build in spvp staff.

You can’t even be serious, can you? Have you ever seen a dps staff ele in any tournament? I don’t remember seeing one for an awfully long time. There is a difference between ’’viable’’ and ‘’sort of able to make it work against not so skilled players’’.

Laraley.7695:

Jski.6180:

Laraley.7695:

Jski.6180:

Ele filled all rolls before there is nothing new tempest can fill. You do know ele is the jack of all trades job in gw2? Any way it looks like ele has more dmg potential where tempest has more support.

I fail to see any viable dps spec in pvp. That was the role ele was missing and should have recieved, not another support spec. It’s pretty simple. really.

Viable dps as an ele or as an tempest? Ele always had a viable dps build in spvp staff.

You can’t even be serious, can you? Have you ever seen a dps staff ele in any tournament? I don’t remember seeing one for an awfully long time. There is a difference between ’’viable’’ and ‘’sort of able to make it work against not so skilled players’’.

Every one who plays spvp needs to play only builds that are in tournaments? Are you sure your not asking for a dps build who can stay alive like d/d? That a viable build that can do dmg and keep going.

Jski.6180:

Laraley.7695:

Jski.6180:

Laraley.7695:

Jski.6180:

Ele filled all rolls before there is nothing new tempest can fill. You do know ele is the jack of all trades job in gw2? Any way it looks like ele has more dmg potential where tempest has more support.

I fail to see any viable dps spec in pvp. That was the role ele was missing and should have recieved, not another support spec. It’s pretty simple. really.

Viable dps as an ele or as an tempest? Ele always had a viable dps build in spvp staff.

You can’t even be serious, can you? Have you ever seen a dps staff ele in any tournament? I don’t remember seeing one for an awfully long time. There is a difference between ’’viable’’ and ‘’sort of able to make it work against not so skilled players’’.

Every one who plays spvp needs to play only builds that are in tournaments? Are you sure your not asking for a dps build who can stay alive like d/d? That a viable build that can do dmg and keep going.

Are you sure you read what I said? No one is asking for a build that is like d/d ele, then I would play that spec. What people have been asking for is a dps spec that would be on par with thief and mesmer and be able to compete for spots in teams. Staff ele nor fresh air is able to do that. This has very little to do with 1v1’s, but rather the function of the spec in a team enviroment.

And no, no one should be forced to play what’s only in tournaments, however if you haven’t seen said spec in a tournament in over a year, it’s most likely a hint it’s not as great as you think.

I honestly thought you were trolling when you said that dps staff ele is a viable spec in pvp.

Laraley.7695:

Jski.6180:

Laraley.7695:

Jski.6180:

Laraley.7695:

Jski.6180:

Ele filled all rolls before there is nothing new tempest can fill. You do know ele is the jack of all trades job in gw2? Any way it looks like ele has more dmg potential where tempest has more support.

I fail to see any viable dps spec in pvp. That was the role ele was missing and should have recieved, not another support spec. It’s pretty simple. really.

Viable dps as an ele or as an tempest? Ele always had a viable dps build in spvp staff.

You can’t even be serious, can you? Have you ever seen a dps staff ele in any tournament? I don’t remember seeing one for an awfully long time. There is a difference between ’’viable’’ and ‘’sort of able to make it work against not so skilled players’’.

Every one who plays spvp needs to play only builds that are in tournaments? Are you sure your not asking for a dps build who can stay alive like d/d? That a viable build that can do dmg and keep going.

Are you sure you read what I said? No one is asking for a build that is like d/d ele, then I would play that spec. What people have been asking for is a dps spec that would be on par with thief and mesmer and be able to compete for spots in teams. Staff ele nor fresh air is able to do that. This has very little to do with 1v1’s, but rather the function of the spec in a team enviroment.

And no, no one should be forced to play what’s only in tournaments, however if you haven’t seen said spec in a tournament in over a year, it’s most likely a hint it’s not as great as you think.

I honestly thought you were trolling when you said that dps staff ele is a viable spec in pvp.

The classes thf and mez can dps like that becuse of there abitly to stealth its as simple as that if your asking for stealth on ele then you really need to rethink why you play ele badly.

Jski.6180:

Laraley.7695:

Jski.6180:

Laraley.7695:

Jski.6180:

Laraley.7695:

Jski.6180:

Ele filled all rolls before there is nothing new tempest can fill. You do know ele is the jack of all trades job in gw2? Any way it looks like ele has more dmg potential where tempest has more support.

I fail to see any viable dps spec in pvp. That was the role ele was missing and should have recieved, not another support spec. It’s pretty simple. really.

Viable dps as an ele or as an tempest? Ele always had a viable dps build in spvp staff.

You can’t even be serious, can you? Have you ever seen a dps staff ele in any tournament? I don’t remember seeing one for an awfully long time. There is a difference between ’’viable’’ and ‘’sort of able to make it work against not so skilled players’’.

Every one who plays spvp needs to play only builds that are in tournaments? Are you sure your not asking for a dps build who can stay alive like d/d? That a viable build that can do dmg and keep going.

Are you sure you read what I said? No one is asking for a build that is like d/d ele, then I would play that spec. What people have been asking for is a dps spec that would be on par with thief and mesmer and be able to compete for spots in teams. Staff ele nor fresh air is able to do that. This has very little to do with 1v1’s, but rather the function of the spec in a team enviroment.

And no, no one should be forced to play what’s only in tournaments, however if you haven’t seen said spec in a tournament in over a year, it’s most likely a hint it’s not as great as you think.

I honestly thought you were trolling when you said that dps staff ele is a viable spec in pvp.

The classes thf and mez can dps like that becuse of there abitly to stealth its as simple as that if your asking for stealth on ele then you really need to rethink why you play ele badly.

If you think the only way how to make a dps spec viable is to give them stealth, there’s really no reason to lead any discussion with ya.

Laraley.7695:

Jski.6180:

Laraley.7695:

Jski.6180:

Laraley.7695:

Jski.6180:

Laraley.7695:

Jski.6180:

Ele filled all rolls before there is nothing new tempest can fill. You do know ele is the jack of all trades job in gw2? Any way it looks like ele has more dmg potential where tempest has more support.

I fail to see any viable dps spec in pvp. That was the role ele was missing and should have recieved, not another support spec. It’s pretty simple. really.

Viable dps as an ele or as an tempest? Ele always had a viable dps build in spvp staff.

You can’t even be serious, can you? Have you ever seen a dps staff ele in any tournament? I don’t remember seeing one for an awfully long time. There is a difference between ’’viable’’ and ‘’sort of able to make it work against not so skilled players’’.

Every one who plays spvp needs to play only builds that are in tournaments? Are you sure your not asking for a dps build who can stay alive like d/d? That a viable build that can do dmg and keep going.

Are you sure you read what I said? No one is asking for a build that is like d/d ele, then I would play that spec. What people have been asking for is a dps spec that would be on par with thief and mesmer and be able to compete for spots in teams. Staff ele nor fresh air is able to do that. This has very little to do with 1v1’s, but rather the function of the spec in a team enviroment.

And no, no one should be forced to play what’s only in tournaments, however if you haven’t seen said spec in a tournament in over a year, it’s most likely a hint it’s not as great as you think.

I honestly thought you were trolling when you said that dps staff ele is a viable spec in pvp.

The classes thf and mez can dps like that becuse of there abitly to stealth its as simple as that if your asking for stealth on ele then you really need to rethink why you play ele badly.

If you think the only way how to make a dps spec viable is to give them stealth, there’s really no reason to lead any discussion with ya.

No i think classes like thf and mez can go all in on dps aimed builds becuse they have the abitly to stealth if they did not then you would see them play dps more like ele war gurds the abitly to stay alive and do dmg type of dps builds. You do dps by build low def and down ppl before they can react being able to stealth becomes the hard counter for ppl to be able to react. So you win on lose on an all dps ele mostly scepter fresh air builds there simply no “you cant see the dmg coming” for classes like ele.

Ele is THE jack of all trades of classes in GW2 there is nothing ele cant do and there by nothing new for tempest to do beyond getting strong in one places but at a cost of another also know as SPECIALIZATION.

(added note this means for you who wants more dps this specialization is simply not for you and in time there will be one that pushes ele into the pure dmg set up it dose not mean your losing out becuse of this)

Jski.6180:

Laraley.7695:

Jski.6180:

Laraley.7695:

Jski.6180:

Laraley.7695:

Jski.6180:

Laraley.7695:

Jski.6180:

Ele filled all rolls before there is nothing new tempest can fill. You do know ele is the jack of all trades job in gw2? Any way it looks like ele has more dmg potential where tempest has more support.

I fail to see any viable dps spec in pvp. That was the role ele was missing and should have recieved, not another support spec. It’s pretty simple. really.

Viable dps as an ele or as an tempest? Ele always had a viable dps build in spvp staff.

You can’t even be serious, can you? Have you ever seen a dps staff ele in any tournament? I don’t remember seeing one for an awfully long time. There is a difference between ’’viable’’ and ‘’sort of able to make it work against not so skilled players’’.

Every one who plays spvp needs to play only builds that are in tournaments? Are you sure your not asking for a dps build who can stay alive like d/d? That a viable build that can do dmg and keep going.

Are you sure you read what I said? No one is asking for a build that is like d/d ele, then I would play that spec. What people have been asking for is a dps spec that would be on par with thief and mesmer and be able to compete for spots in teams. Staff ele nor fresh air is able to do that. This has very little to do with 1v1’s, but rather the function of the spec in a team enviroment.

And no, no one should be forced to play what’s only in tournaments, however if you haven’t seen said spec in a tournament in over a year, it’s most likely a hint it’s not as great as you think.

I honestly thought you were trolling when you said that dps staff ele is a viable spec in pvp.

The classes thf and mez can dps like that becuse of there abitly to stealth its as simple as that if your asking for stealth on ele then you really need to rethink why you play ele badly.

If you think the only way how to make a dps spec viable is to give them stealth, there’s really no reason to lead any discussion with ya.

No i think classes like thf and mez can go all in on dps aimed builds becuse they have the abitly to stealth if they did not then you would see them play dps more like ele war gurds the abitly to stay alive and do dmg type of dps builds. You do dps by build low def and down ppl before they can react being able to stealth becomes the hard counter for ppl to be able to react. So you win on lose on an all dps ele mostly scepter fresh air builds there simply no “you cant see the dmg coming” for classes like ele.

Ele is THE jack of all trades of classes in GW2 there is nothing ele cant do and there by nothing new for tempest to do beyond getting strong in one places but at a cost of another also know as SPECIALIZATION.

(added note this means for you who wants more dps this specialization is simply not for you and in time there will be one that pushes ele into the pure dmg set up it dose not mean your losing out becuse of this)

And yet there is still no viable dps ele dps build in pvp. My point was that’s what they should be adding, not this kitten that’s not even going to get used, it’s horrible. The fact one build can do everything does not mean people shouldn’t be asking for different playstyles.

Laraley.7695:

Jski.6180:

Laraley.7695:

Jski.6180:

Laraley.7695:

Jski.6180:

Laraley.7695:

Jski.6180:

Laraley.7695:

Jski.6180:

Ele filled all rolls before there is nothing new tempest can fill. You do know ele is the jack of all trades job in gw2? Any way it looks like ele has more dmg potential where tempest has more support.

I fail to see any viable dps spec in pvp. That was the role ele was missing and should have recieved, not another support spec. It’s pretty simple. really.

Viable dps as an ele or as an tempest? Ele always had a viable dps build in spvp staff.

You can’t even be serious, can you? Have you ever seen a dps staff ele in any tournament? I don’t remember seeing one for an awfully long time. There is a difference between ’’viable’’ and ‘’sort of able to make it work against not so skilled players’’.

Every one who plays spvp needs to play only builds that are in tournaments? Are you sure your not asking for a dps build who can stay alive like d/d? That a viable build that can do dmg and keep going.

Are you sure you read what I said? No one is asking for a build that is like d/d ele, then I would play that spec. What people have been asking for is a dps spec that would be on par with thief and mesmer and be able to compete for spots in teams. Staff ele nor fresh air is able to do that. This has very little to do with 1v1’s, but rather the function of the spec in a team enviroment.

And no, no one should be forced to play what’s only in tournaments, however if you haven’t seen said spec in a tournament in over a year, it’s most likely a hint it’s not as great as you think.

I honestly thought you were trolling when you said that dps staff ele is a viable spec in pvp.

The classes thf and mez can dps like that becuse of there abitly to stealth its as simple as that if your asking for stealth on ele then you really need to rethink why you play ele badly.

If you think the only way how to make a dps spec viable is to give them stealth, there’s really no reason to lead any discussion with ya.

No i think classes like thf and mez can go all in on dps aimed builds becuse they have the abitly to stealth if they did not then you would see them play dps more like ele war gurds the abitly to stay alive and do dmg type of dps builds. You do dps by build low def and down ppl before they can react being able to stealth becomes the hard counter for ppl to be able to react. So you win on lose on an all dps ele mostly scepter fresh air builds there simply no “you cant see the dmg coming” for classes like ele.

Ele is THE jack of all trades of classes in GW2 there is nothing ele cant do and there by nothing new for tempest to do beyond getting strong in one places but at a cost of another also know as SPECIALIZATION.

(added note this means for you who wants more dps this specialization is simply not for you and in time there will be one that pushes ele into the pure dmg set up it dose not mean your losing out becuse of this)

And yet there is still no viable dps ele dps build in pvp. My point was that’s what they should be adding, not this kitten that’s not even going to get used, it’s horrible. The fact one build can do everything does not mean people shouldn’t be asking for different playstyles.

And becuse a new thing dose not fit your wants dose not mean every thing about the ele class should be forgotten. Ele dose it all tempest cant add any thing that is more aggressive becuse that simply not the aim of the class wait for the next one. I am sure your not getting dps from tempest when its main effects are support aimed.

BlackBeard.2873:

Tempest does not have the tools to fill a new role. In pvp, it only works with a tanky, high-healing (due to melee range), boon-sharing build with some damage – that is already what d/d does. In wvw, it lacks the tools to survive melee combat (stability, leaps, blocks, invulns, defense in general) as either a group tank or a single-burst (ports, burst, invulns, blocks, stealth, mobility). In pve, it doesn’t provide hard mitigation as support (like focus does), and doesn’t do damage in any way.

If they want to open up new roles, they can choose from:
- Viable single-target medium-ranged dps to pair with scepter (and fix scepter), like mesmer OH pistol
- Heavy control (not just 2 control skills like every weapon has)
- Condition-damage focused
- In-combat mobility options (shorter leaps – less than RtL to get away, but have more of them)
- True melee combat MH(although this is tough due to lack of weapon-swap)
- Single target long-range, like ranger longbow and mesmer GS.

Jski.6180:

Every one who plays spvp needs to play only builds that are in tournaments? Are you sure your not asking for a dps build who can stay alive like d/d? That a viable build that can do dmg and keep going.

There are enough tourneys, that if something isn’t just strictly worse at filling a role than something else or doesn’t just get deleted, someone will run it.

If you play dps staff ele against good players, you are not gonna have a good time – I promise. It honestly isn’t viable if a player is smart b/c you can be made completely useless quite easily. In fact, 1 thief or mesmer can easily just 1-shot your from stealth at-will.

Most ppl are not going to play in a tourney so i do not see the point of making that type of argument. My point is that ele is the dps roll tempest is not. So stop trying to act like the lack of dps means tempest dose not add any thing it simply dose not add any thing you want. Tempest adds a new roll that no other class can fill in the game atm an aoe stun brake there is nothing in the game that can do this but a tempest.

Jski.6180:

Most ppl are not going to play in a tourney so i do not see the point of making that type of argument. My point is that ele is the dps roll tempest is not. So stop trying to act like the lack of dps means tempest dose not add any thing it simply dose not add any thing you want.

I am not complaining that tempest isn’t a dps role, I am pointing out that what it does, however, offers no new real functionality. I provided a list of potential new weapon/fighting roles they could have gone for. As it is, tempest is melee-range, pbAOE healing and boon support with a touch of control. D/d and d/f ele is melee-range pbAOE healing and boon support with a touch of control, some damage, and some mobility.

For a spec focused on providing support, the sad fact is that you are better off going for focus. The hard mitigation provided by swirling winds, resses with obsidian flesh, and a lower-cooldown fire field and more blasts to share might offer more in the support department, while also carrying greater self-preservation benefits. Warhorn doesn’t fit into a different niche than either current off-hand, and thus will either be strictly worse or strictly better. They could have had more success with a torch for heavy condi-focus or pistol for single-target ranged dps/control (compared to focus defense/control) to be truly different.

If they want tempest to be something different, it needs to focus on things the ele doesn’t currently do well:
- Condition variety
- PvP dps (this comes down to needing more mobility and hard-mitigation than focus or dagger, but can’t be achieved with an off-hand because it would make d/x even more OP)
- ranged single-target dps
- More control options (2 control skills on warhorn puts in merely on-par with every other ele weapon), especially melee-option area control like guardian hammer
- etc.

Tempest adds a new roll that no other class can fill in the game atm an aoe stun brake there is nothing in the game that can do this but a tempest.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Indomitable_Courage

This even does one better and gives aoe stability too!

BlackBeard.2873:

Jski.6180:

Most ppl are not going to play in a tourney so i do not see the point of making that type of argument. My point is that ele is the dps roll tempest is not. So stop trying to act like the lack of dps means tempest dose not add any thing it simply dose not add any thing you want.

I am not complaining that tempest isn’t a dps role, I am pointing out that what it does, however, offers no new real functionality. I provided a list of potential new weapon/fighting roles they could have gone for. As it is, tempest is melee-range, pbAOE healing and boon support with a touch of control. D/d and d/f ele is melee-range pbAOE healing and boon support with a touch of control, some damage, and some mobility.

For a spec focused on providing support, the sad fact is that you are better off going for focus. The hard mitigation provided by swirling winds, resses with obsidian flesh, and a lower-cooldown fire field and more blasts to share might offer more in the support department, while also carrying greater self-preservation benefits. Warhorn doesn’t fit into a different niche than either current off-hand, and thus will either be strictly worse or strictly better. They could have had more success with a torch for heavy condi-focus or pistol for single-target ranged dps/control (compared to focus defense/control) to be truly different.

If they want tempest to be something different, it needs to focus on things the ele doesn’t currently do well:
- Condition variety
- PvP dps (this comes down to needing more mobility and hard-mitigation than focus or dagger, but can’t be achieved with an off-hand because it would make d/x even more OP)
- ranged single-target dps
- More control options (2 control skills on warhorn puts in merely on-par with every other ele weapon), especially melee-option area control like guardian hammer
- etc.

Tempest adds a new roll that no other class can fill in the game atm an aoe stun brake there is nothing in the game that can do this but a tempest.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Indomitable_Courage

Swirling winds is super specialized support obsidian flesh is not support all its a def tool in a lot of ways its the opposite of support. Foces is a def item not a support item off hand dagger give more support then foces all though off hand dagger is the offhand dmg wepon. Where WH is the pure support off hand. The tempest line fills a support type that ele simply dose not have the melee support or the abitly to deal for your group with hard cc there is simply no way for the ele as a class to deal with aoe hard cc for there pt (i guess the earth trate 1 stack of stab that last for 2 sec not realty a support tool lol).

Indomitable courage dose not aoe stun brake it just aoe stabs.

I believe wash the pain away is bugged, it has constantly healed me for 3 ticks for overall 9500+ hp

Having tried it in WvW last night, the short answer is: No.

Warhorn is decent for running in the melee train.

Shouts are “OK”, but will never be picked over cantrips due to the lack of trait synergy versus the massive synergy you get from cantrips.

Speccing out of Arcane and Water is simply not viable due to how ridiculously good cleanse and EA are. This leaves us with T/W/Ar build, which has less damage than FWAr, is less tanky than EWAr, and less control than AWAr. Aura traits are all over the place, making any build suboptimal to a Regen Cantrip build.

Overloads are just garbage. I saved this one til last, as I didn’t want to come off as negative but I just can’t see any point in it:

1. The mechanic is clunky: Change Attunement → Wait 5 seconds → Cast 5 seconds →Wait 20 seconds to use again, or swap and wait another 5 seconds.

2. Long channel is a death wish in WvW. It means no dodging, can be interrupted and makes you a big glowing target. This prevents you from going front line, which was the intent of the spec. Overload Fire is ok-ish, but you can’t spec in to fire due to TWAr being the only viable spec.

Finally Rebound: It’s rubbish all over the place, which fits with the ele theme of rubbish elites. So… good job on that? I guess?

New roles? No.

It just more of the same it did before.

Laraley.7695:

Jski.6180:

Laraley.7695:

Jski.6180:

Ele filled all rolls before there is nothing new tempest can fill. You do know ele is the jack of all trades job in gw2? Any way it looks like ele has more dmg potential where tempest has more support.

I fail to see any viable dps spec in pvp. That was the role ele was missing and should have recieved, not another support spec. It’s pretty simple. really.

Viable dps as an ele or as an tempest? Ele always had a viable dps build in spvp staff.

You can’t even be serious, can you? Have you ever seen a dps staff ele in any tournament? I don’t remember seeing one for an awfully long time. There is a difference between ’’viable’’ and ‘’sort of able to make it work against not so skilled players’’.

I do not understand that. ^^. What interests me as a Fun soloplayer is if a build is good in my area. What interests me not is whether it also works with professional Premades.

Magira.6390:

Laraley.7695:

Jski.6180:

Laraley.7695:

Jski.6180:

Ele filled all rolls before there is nothing new tempest can fill. You do know ele is the jack of all trades job in gw2? Any way it looks like ele has more dmg potential where tempest has more support.

I fail to see any viable dps spec in pvp. That was the role ele was missing and should have recieved, not another support spec. It’s pretty simple. really.

Viable dps as an ele or as an tempest? Ele always had a viable dps build in spvp staff.

You can’t even be serious, can you? Have you ever seen a dps staff ele in any tournament? I don’t remember seeing one for an awfully long time. There is a difference between ’’viable’’ and ‘’sort of able to make it work against not so skilled players’’.

I do not understand that. ^^. What interests me as a Fun soloplayer is if a build is good in my area. What interests me not is whether it also works with professional Premades.

Then the fact if it’s viable or not does not interest you either.

After playing around with the Tempest I have come to the same conclusion as many here.

The Tempest provides new tools? Yes.
Are they good? Generally not in their current state.
Do they bring a new playstyle? Definitely not and currently are a downgrade from what we have.

Blackbeard I think explained it perfectly.

Azel.4786:

After playing around with the Tempest I have come to the same conclusion as many here.

The Tempest provides new tools? Yes.
Are they good? Generally not in their current state.
Do they bring a new playstyle? Definitely not and currently are a downgrade from what we have.

Blackbeard I think explained it perfectly.

I don’t think an offhand weapon can really bring about a new playstyle. Your MH weapon defines your build, and there is nothing about dagger or scepter that says ‘group support’

The Great Al.2546:

I don’t think an offhand weapon can really bring about a new playstyle. Your MH weapon defines your build, and there is nothing about dagger or scepter that says ‘group support’

Well they have advertised it as “creating an entirely new role” and a some people were eager for that. I for one pre-ordered based on that – which in my view has not been delivered with the tempest like it has been delivered by the other specializations (not judging if they are good or bad, but that they do bring new way of play).

And I think it is possible to bring a new playstyle with the whole package that the specialization brings (new weapon, mechanic and skills).

But…..

Warhorn offers the same we have with our current OHs (some damage, some CC and some group support), with some small differences with one/two new abilities (boon removal and boon share+extension), but nothing as impactful and changing like a new boon that mesmers’ got (for example).

They could have made the class mechanic more impactful to have staying in one attunement be our “new playstyle” – shifting us from our standard routine of swapping attunements for the best benefits, but this is not the case at all. The Overload mechanic, has mentioned said several times, is not powerful enough and punishes you too harshly for what it does – the risk/reward ratio is way off.

The skills could have helped to open new variations from the cantrips that currently are our salvation and our curse, but again they do not – some are too weak others have uses but are not powerful to compete with cantrips nor have the same degree of synergy with traits.

We could have at least finally gained a decent elite skill, alas that was the greatest disappointment in the whole package.

Overall, all the tests I did with it yesterday and today left me very disappointed with this specialization.

Azel.4786:

The Great Al.2546:

I don’t think an offhand weapon can really bring about a new playstyle. Your MH weapon defines your build, and there is nothing about dagger or scepter that says ‘group support’

Well they have advertised it as “creating an entirely new role” and a some people were eager for that. I for one pre-ordered based on that – which in my view has not been delivered with the tempest like it has been delivered by the other specializations (not judging if they are good or bad, but that they do bring new way of play).

I’m sorry, I was actually agreeing with you I was just trying to explain why I didn’t think it would really be possible to create an entirely new role with just an offhand.

The Great Al.2546:

Azel.4786:

After playing around with the Tempest I have come to the same conclusion as many here.

The Tempest provides new tools? Yes.
Are they good? Generally not in their current state.
Do they bring a new playstyle? Definitely not and currently are a downgrade from what we have.

Blackbeard I think explained it perfectly.

I don’t think an offhand weapon can really bring about a new playstyle. Your MH weapon defines your build, and there is nothing about dagger or scepter that says ‘group support’

I have played chronomancer, and I can say that, even if you don’t take shield it plays very different than base mesmer because the new mechanic works well to open up new doors. The only difference is that the chronomancer is well designed to do things very different (although it might also end up just being used to improve power-shatter), whereas tempest is unfocused and ineffective at the things it IS trying to do.

The Great Al.2546:

I’m sorry, I was actually agreeing with you I was just trying to explain why I didn’t think it would really be possible to create an entirely new role with just an offhand.

Oh, sorry. Misinterpreted you.

But I still think it would have been possible to make a new playstyle – for instance if Warhorn was a mid range weapon that gave good synergy with scepter and they fixed scepter, we could have ppl alternating between classic D/D or a new S/Wh. That would be interesting and open variants for the PvP ppl.

Alas, innovation isn’t the forte of the elementalist dev team.

Simply put: No.

They can fix the Tempest to properly be on the front line. However until these kinds of changes are made it’s simply ineffective and has no place on the front line over other characters. Right now it’s little better (and in many cases worse) than a D/D Elementalist who fell out of front line groups a while back (I honestly haven’t seen one in T1 WvW since the stability changes).

I do ultimately agree that there are other roles they could have had Tempest fulfill many of which are listed by Blackbeard. Frankly our low base HP and low base armor make us a prime candidate for a mobility based burst character in the vein of a thief. That said I don’t think they are going to reverse their decision or scrap their work at this time and it’s best to work on fixing their original intent: Tempest, a front line character.

is all this really worth paying 40$s???

I was ready to get on the ‘no, doesn’t bring anything new’ bandwagon… and then I ran around Verdant Brink for a while. And then I noticed what I was doing that was the most effective use of the tools that the tempest has…

…and it’s not what ArenaNet has advertised it as. It’s presented as a front-line tool, taking the traditional D/D ele, replacing the second dagger with a warhorn, and using a different skillset… however, even if this worked as advertised, it’d basically be just a D/D ele with different skills.

What seems to work better, and is possibly more survivable than the traditional D/D in the Verdant Brink, is operating as a skirmisher. While the overload is charging, hang back and poke at the enemy with scepter or staff. If you have good health when the overload has charged, run in, trigger your overload, and do some damage. When it’s done, fire off any last skills you want from your current attunement as you get out, switch attunement, and get ready to go in when the next overload is ready.

In the meantime, should you choose to use it, you’ve got access to even more team support than elementalists already have. However, new support options don’t really add a new playstyle when the profession is already good at support.

Would this work in (any form of) PvP? I’d have to admit I have my doubts. Human opponents are unlikely to allow you to finish an overload if they can help it, or let you get away afterwards.

Jski.6180:

Ele filled all rolls before there is nothing new tempest can fill. You do know ele is the jack of all trades job in gw2? Any way it looks like ele has more dmg potential where tempest has more support.

So a few things..

You don’t seem like a new player so where is this belief coming from? First I mean gw2 doesn’t even have strict roles obviously (in other words all classes are a jack of all trades to some extent), second in terms of what someone is providing and by how much utility, that award clearly goes to engineer over ele. They have access to everything. Ele can do a lot but they can’t stealth. Engi also has med-med hp/armor. *If anyone is the jack of all trades its clearly the engineer. *

Also in regards to the other discussion about needing stealth for a zerk build in pvp – medi dps build for guardian is a good example of a viable zerk build in pvp that doesn’t require stealth.

So there are plenty of ways to do it. Ele clearly DOES NOT have everything and DID NOT need more support. We need a viable zerk build in pvp.

draxynnic.3719:

I was ready to get on the ‘no, doesn’t bring anything new’ bandwagon… and then I ran around Verdant Brink for a while. And then I noticed what I was doing that was the most effective use of the tools that the tempest has…

…and it’s not what ArenaNet has advertised it as. It’s presented as a front-line tool, taking the traditional D/D ele, replacing the second dagger with a warhorn, and using a different skillset… however, even if this worked as advertised, it’d basically be just a D/D ele with different skills.

What seems to work better, and is possibly more survivable than the traditional D/D in the Verdant Brink, is operating as a skirmisher. While the overload is charging, hang back and poke at the enemy with scepter or staff. If you have good health when the overload has charged, run in, trigger your overload, and do some damage. When it’s done, fire off any last skills you want from your current attunement as you get out, switch attunement, and get ready to go in when the next overload is ready.

In the meantime, should you choose to use it, you’ve got access to even more team support than elementalists already have. However, new support options don’t really add a new playstyle when the profession is already good at support.

Would this work in (any form of) PvP? I’d have to admit I have my doubts. Human opponents are unlikely to allow you to finish an overload if they can help it, or let you get away afterwards.

How is this “new” you can just sit and drop lava fonts/meteor showers/icebow4 from the backline and do more damage and be safer. You can play that PbAoE with D/D and do more damage, and hold more sustain. That type of playstyle is not new and its also less effective than other current methods.

Mightybird.6034:

Jski.6180:

Ele filled all rolls before there is nothing new tempest can fill. You do know ele is the jack of all trades job in gw2? Any way it looks like ele has more dmg potential where tempest has more support.

So a few things..

You don’t seem like a new player so where is this belief coming from? First I mean gw2 doesn’t even have strict roles obviously (in other words all classes are a jack of all trades to some extent), second in terms of what someone is providing and by how much utility, that award clearly goes to engineer over ele. They have access to everything. Ele can do a lot but they can’t stealth. Engi also has med-med hp/armor. *If anyone is the jack of all trades its clearly the engineer. *

Also in regards to the other discussion about needing stealth for a zerk build in pvp – medi dps build for guardian is a good example of a viable zerk build in pvp that doesn’t require stealth.

So there are plenty of ways to do it. Ele clearly DOES NOT have everything and DID NOT need more support. We need a viable zerk build in pvp.

There are rolls in GW2 they are just very soft and very build aimed as in every class can be build in such a way to fill them. The thing about ele becuse they are able to swap atuments on the fly they fill every roll there atuments do or all of them.

Its not about what they “need” as a class tempest is just a new way to play ele if it was then there would be no point in being an ele any more you would just be a tempest and it would be powercreep. Right now ele only some what fills a boon support and a very limited boon support at that aura’s boons are on the week side and swap boons are on a very low ranges (they tend to be more self boon support then other ppl). Tempest fills the pt boon support roll and the counter hard cc roll with WH some what like gurd but less on the passive stab side and more on the reactive stun braking (the only aoe stun braking in the game is on tempest).

So yes it fills a new roll for the ele class as it should (specialization should only fill a new roll for that class to say they should fill a new roll in the game over all is to call in question all specialization witch all seem to only fill more dps rolls that are filled by other classes) but more of a side note it comply fills a new roll for the game the aoe stun braking.

OneKlicKill.4285:

How is this “new” you can just sit and drop lava fonts/meteor showers/icebow4 from the backline and do more damage and be safer. You can play that PbAoE with D/D and do more damage, and hold more sustain. That type of playstyle is not new and its also less effective than other current methods.

It’s a different playstyle. Dagger/X is based around staying in close range (within at most 600, ideally around 300) constantly – if you’re outside of that range, you’re not really contributing at all unless you’re using a conjure. Classic staff, while better at fighting in close range than many people think, is still a style that ideally wants to be as far away as practical delivering artillery and other forms of support. The style I found myself in with sceptre tempest was one that involved switching between standoff fighting and close-in overloading as a matter of course. (Staff would probably also work, but I was also looking to test warhorn as well.)

ArenaNet’s philosophy is that the primary difference between professions is more about playstyle than what they’re capable of doing, and I apply a similar thinking to the tempest. Is it more effective than existing options? Probably not, but the elite specialisations aren’t supposed to be straight upgrades. Additionally, if they’ve treated the elite specialisations the way they did revenant, it’s quite likely that the numbers are undertuned and ready to be raised to whatever is needed to make it a viable but not a necessary choice. However, it certainly felt quite different to play than any of the existing builds – so at that level, I think they’ve succeeded (if not quite in the direction they’d planned). Whether it’s currently competitive is a different, albeit just as important, issue.

(I could also point out that in the event where I was doing this, I think there were good reasons where this playstyle was working where a classic dagger or staff build would not have worked so well. It involved multiple Hive Fiends (aka Mordrem Trolls) and Menders, which means that it was useful to keep mobile while having a mix of pressuring and area spiking, but there was little risk of CC. A more general observation regarding overloads is that while they’re easier to interrupt than a staff user at a distance dropping fields, overloads are mobile for much if not all of their duration, which means they’re less subject to being negated because the target moved. However, I think the general question of ‘different playstyle’ is more important, in this context, than whether or not it actually was a good choice here, hence why all this is in parentheses. Numbers, after all, can be tweaked much more easily than the design.)

The specialisation that possibly adds the least in terms of adding a new playstyle is probably the chronomancer. Dragonhunters, reapers, and with the above configuration, tempests all do feel like they generate a different style of playing than the core profession. Chronomancer, on the other hand, while fun and effective, does feel more like it’s just adding more tweaks to the core Mesmer gameplay rather than encouraging a new playstyle.

draxynnic.3719:

The style I found myself in with sceptre tempest was one that involved switching between standoff fighting and close-in overloading as a matter of course. (Staff would probably also work, but I was also looking to test warhorn as well.)

That sounds a heck of a lot like scepter/dagger in terms of play-style, tbh. I suspect you would instantly feel more powerful using either scepter/focus or scepter/dagger while doing all of the same things (although s/d requires you to dance in and out of range a bit more, while s/f can kinda sit at 600-900 range most of the time). Your play-style felt different because your main-hand weapon was different, which changed your range and role.

People would even be more happy if they made a warhorn that synergized better with a scepter playstyle (and fixed scepter), but alas it only truly works decently with dagger, especially due to warhorn lacking damage (which scepter is in dire need of), survival capabilities, mobility, and hard-mitigation that you can get on /d or /f.

The specialisation that possibly adds the least in terms of adding a new playstyle is probably the chronomancer. Dragonhunters, reapers, and with the above configuration, tempests all do feel like they generate a different style of playing than the core profession. Chronomancer, on the other hand, while fun and effective, does feel more like it’s just adding more tweaks to the core Mesmer gameplay rather than encouraging a new playstyle.

I actually felt the opposite. While chronomancer synergized well with shatter/burst playstyles, it also offered many more tools for control, phantasm, and other play-styles as well. Part of the reason is because the traits were so powerful that they acted as enablers, but even more, the spec gave brand-new functionality that couldn’t be gotten anywhere else (slow, alacrity, continuum split, chronophantasm, etc.). Tempest doesn’t do anything new, it just shares boons, has a couple fields, and forces you into a tanky-melee role (sound familiar?)

Sunflowers.1729:

Well, I tried to make a build based around healing with auras. Using the trait that says “auras heal” (tempest grandmaster), it can theoretically put out a ton of healing, significantly more than the warrior healing signet’s passive anyway. Link is below.

http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgACeAW0Bvw~

Basically, what you will do is swap to an attunement, say fire for example. Cast whatever skills you want to and then channel the overload. Completing this channel gives an aura, which heals people through the trait (the trait doesn’t have a cooldown on the healing part, only on the frost aura proc).

Conveniently, it takes 5 seconds (wait for overload to become available) + 5 seconds (channel overload) to rotate through an attunement. This coincides with the base cooldown on attuning. Thus, you can do this:

Fire>Water>Air>Water>Earth>Water>Fire.etc (don’t overload water)

Combined with the healing shout which heals all allies, as well as the fire and water shouts (both of which apply auras) you can put out a good amount of sustained healing.

Of course the traditional sources of healing like attuning to water and evasive arcana are still there. That’s why you don’t overload water, so you don’t get locked out of it for too long (but obviously use the water overload if you really need to)

Also, I used trooper runes to help with condition clearing, since it is a supportive build.

For weapons use whatever you want, maybe warhorn for the boon sharing.

Edit: math. With 400 healing power, applying an aura heals for 680 health.
From overloading, you apply aura once per 10s, which is 68 hp/s
From “Feel the Burn”, you heal for 680 hp every 20s, which is 34 hp/s
From “Flash Freeze”, 680 hp per 25s, this is 27.2 hp/s
“Wash the Pain Away” is 3680 hp per 25s, that’s 147.2 hp/s
Attuning to water once per 10s is 1699 hp = 169 hp/s
Evasive Arcana is another 169 hp/s

Ignoring other healing effects from weapon auras, auras on proc, combo-field auras, regeneration, weapon skills, that’s ~600 hp/second to your entire group, which is not bad. It also removes lots of conditions and obviously gives people auras, which are great.

Admittedly the aura heal just doesn’t do that much in comparison to the last 3 sources of healing.

In PVP in Clerics gear with the Water line and the grandmaster to improve Soothing Mist, it provides an outstanding 400 heal per second personal and even higher for allies just by itself.

The shouts were healing for over 1k on self and more on allies. Water horn 5 + dagger 3 while running forward is a free blast heal + the orbs normal healing, and a little over 2k healing burst from water 4 + its knockback if like right on the foe and ally.

I did an Earth + Water + Tempest healing build and it worked wonders. Monk runes for more healing output or Trooper for condi cleanse on each shout, taking the protection on auras.

If even though Powerful Auras is tempting to run, the massive healing per second of soothing mist is imo worth it. The shouts all provide auras anyway, and the build has few personal auras to apply. You can take the Auras on overload as well, in which case it might be worth running Powerful Auras.

It was a super sustainable, strong build for me in PvP. Amazing support options to keep an ally alive, cleansed, and has a good uptime on protection/25 might. You could always swap a shout out for earthen shield to boonshare the protection and stability to your whole group as well

I also did a build variant with staff and the above set up with water blast healing for loads.

People don’t seem to realize how CRAZY strong Wash the Pain Away is by the way. It heals you for each pulse, healing allies as well, which in a high healing power build is easily over 8k total healing I believe, and can heal that in an AOE to all allies. It is insanely effective for healing a half health ally to full in conjunction with some other quick aura shouts.

I do really hope that each shout gains an aura though I’d love a Light aura on WTPA and changing the Rebound elite to apply Arcane Shield to all allies, and reclassify Arcane Shield as an aura

I agree with Swiftwynd!

Tempest in Clerics gear (I love staff so stayed with staff) worked wonders in Stronghold. At one point I managed to keep the Lord alive and saw it down three players, with me just spamming water and the occasional cc skill. It is insanely strong in that sense.

I found it much harder to try and get a DPS build going. I’d be either giving up all my survivability and mobility, or simply lacked the sustain to land some hits. But perhaps Tempest was never meant to be an all-out dps spec, and rather healing/boon sharing?

This is the kind of build i did also see. But it´s the only thing that feels useful for tempest.
Tempest is a pure healing/support class and the overloads and elite just for being flashy.

Lets use MOBA Role styles

In Smite (My MOBA of choice) Ele can fit
Bruiser: With D/D D/F
Mid lane Mage: with Staff
Healer-Support
Tempest would be a lower tier Bruiser

What we don’t have is
Carry
Assassin/Jungle
Tank-Support
Anti-Mage

Scepter should be our Carry weapon but is way to unviable

So as you can see. Tempest does not fill a new role using these classifications.

The Tempest is forced down a support/healing route with very little else. The Chronomancer can pull off a ton of other roles. If this is all we’re getting and a damage-oriented spec is impossible, then I’m probably going to just swap mains; and I don’t mean that as a threat, I’m just extremely bored by the same d/d and staff playstyles I’ve been using for years now and the Tempest is just trying to be heal and boonbot 2.0 with nothing else :/

Malchior.5732:

The Tempest is forced down a support/healing route with very little else. The Chronomancer can pull off a ton of other roles. If this is all we’re getting and a damage-oriented spec is impossible, then I’m probably going to just swap mains; and I don’t mean that as a threat, I’m just extremely bored by the same d/d and staff playstyles I’ve been using for years now and the Tempest is just trying to be heal and boonbot 2.0 with nothing else :/

I agree. Unfortunately number tweaking alone will not fix the fun factor of this class. We have been doing frontline support for 3 years already, and especially in PvE, it’s just not that rewarding.

The problem is exactly that: our elite profession doesn’t work with most of what the elementalist is doing now, while the other classes elite professions improves them.

Warhorn and overloads are useless with a fresh air scepter build where you change attunements all the time. Overloads are useless for a staff ele who always stay at range if it prevents him from using his other skills. Support is already better on staff and at range anyway.

Basically even at support tempest is bad. You would be much better with a chronomancer giving alacrity and quickness or a guardian clearing condis, healing and giving aegis. And these classes don’t have to sacrifice all their damage to do that.

The tempest seems to have 2 distinct goals – one is simply adding a “full support” option and there I suspect it works quite well … If there is ever a use for it!

The second is the via the overloads – in particular, ele has great sustain by always having new things to cast. Overloads directly weaken that for a reason – you hit hard and burn out.

In theory that’s great, it can open up new roles like actual burst etc. As we know, however… It isn’t powerful enough. This in turn may be due to balance concerns. So. My suggestion is the following:

• remove the 5s wait and make the downsides harsher – half damage until you leave fire etc, longer recharge (even different per attune – earth could be 50s and air 20s)
• buff the effect through the roof
• give a lasting bonus for the next attunement. Suggestions:
  Fire: massive might
  air: tonnes of quickness
  water: resistance, you’ll need it
  earth: stability, so you can overload everything else

Anyway, that’s just me theorycrafting – as I main mesmer, it seems like Chrono does the exact opposite and reduces burst but increases sustain. That worked really well, hopefully similar ideas do here

Overload varaint: A bit extreme.
No wait time. Overload drains energy from all elements exept the one you are in. You focus on one depletign the other ;-).
Add double (1,5 when traited) the time you overcharge to elmenst cooldowns of all other elements. You can charge up to 10s. When you release you get a bonus to all damage/condition duration of the overcharge from 1-100% for the time charged. Minimum charge time is maybe 2s.

I have a feeling none of the new Elite Specializations are designed for the current game modes (PVP, WvWvW or dungeons), they are all giving me the sense of big support traits, heal on aura, stun-break for allies, overload heal allies, etc….

I have a feeling we are prepared for ‘challenging group content’ they mentioned several times, lately in new fractal modes blog, stating the new fractals are not the new challenging group content is.

You know what the elementalist doesnt have? A functional brawler build providing high risk for reward. Give us our sword kitten it.

Well I kinda agree and disagree with the answer there are some thing that Tempest can do but anet need to improve them. The 1 thing i’m thinking about is the aura trait in the Grand tier which gives healing which should be more like the meditation trait in guardian what heals u for each meditation uses there I could be maybe mhh for support, I think if they add a dmg buff trait, which all the others do eles can still be viable in pvp and maybe in a manner be less glassy. I will not to people that I not a pvper so I can not say for shore that it will, and from all that Tempest feedback some hope is on the rise.

Xillllix.3485:

The problem is exactly that: our elite profession doesn’t work with most of what the elementalist is doing now, while the other classes elite professions improves them.

Warhorn and overloads are useless with a fresh air scepter build where you change attunements all the time. Overloads are useless for a staff ele who always stay at range if it prevents him from using his other skills. Support is already better on staff and at range anyway.

Basically even at support tempest is bad. You would be much better with a chronomancer giving alacrity and quickness or a guardian clearing condis, healing and giving aegis. And these classes don’t have to sacrifice all their damage to do that.

I agree -

If you want to play a ranged Guardian, DH is clearly better than just Guardian.
If you want to play a close ranged damage oriented necro, Reaper is clearly better than just Necro.
Chronomancer seems better than Mesmer entirely.
If you want to play a group support close ranged Ele, it’s not even clear that Tempest is on par with base Ele, much less better.