Guild Wars 2

So I decided to make this topic in hopes that when the elementalist dev comes back from vacation (as rumors are saying) and decides to reads 1-2 posts and to throw some mediocre numbers at us as “fixes” and call it a day, he hopefully reads this and stops to pay more attention at the topics around here and actually addresses the core issue that makes Tempest so terrible.

So here it goes:

The problem with Tempest is not a numbers issue. It is a CONCEPT issue.

How so? The key problem is that Tempest is being designed as a “melee brawler / group support” specialization, but that is exactly what D/D cele elementalist is all about.

You can come into this topic and say that “oh, but Tempest is more focused in group support and auras rather than damage”.

But this completely ignores the fact that these are options we already have today. If you want you can just trait powerful aura to share auras and shift your stats to more Healing power – done, you are now spec focused on:

- boon sharing (Elemental Attunement for might, protection, swiftness and regen and blasting fire fields for added might);
- Aura sharing (Powerful Auras);
- group healing (several healing abilities); and
- party condi cleansing.

Why nobody uses such a group support focused trait option?
Simple, it is less effective than standard D/D cele ele Water/Arcane/Fire or Water/Arcane/Earth. Which are able to solo better and still provide good group support – i.e., all of the above except aura share.

Oh, but tempest comes in to fix just that. It will make sharing auras and healing the party even better! And here we reach the problem. When you think this you are essentially recognizing that you are getting the exact same play style, but wanting it to be better. So what you are asking now is not a new role for the class, but a buff to what we have today with D/D cele ele.

Asking for this buff is terrible because D/D cele ele is already in the borderline between great and OP. So if you get an improved version of D/D cele ele, ANET will come swinging the nerf bat so kitten the elementalist you will even forget you had one in your account.

So please, focus your attention in trying to get ANET to realize this terrible mistake in creating an elite specialization that competes with the same play-style we have today. Help them understand that what we want is something that brings a new role to the class so that we have more options to focus on.

Tl/dr: Tempest today is just competing with D/D cele ele in the exact same role (brawler / group support). That is bad. Tempest should open a new role that is interesting and enticing to play and not be just a better or worse version of D/D cele ele.

Not to mention that we didn’t need ANOTHER line with Aura traits. What they could have done is just buff up Powerful Auras to compete with Cleansing Water. Combine Elemental Bastion with Powerful Auras and for the love of god, don’t have Aura traits spread between 5 lines(seriously, why?!).

Maybe make a trait that applies 1 stack of Stab for a few seconds when applying an Aura instead of the Earth trait that applies it for 2s on a small AoE. Boom, done, Support Auramancer is a thing without eating up the Tempest line and all of our new utilities.

Yes, the introduction of Auramancer builds were an interesting concept, that has failed due to the fact that Aura traits are terribly spread out. They should have focused them on Arcane trait line as a way to compete with Elemental Attunement / Evasive Arcana style.

If they had included Powerful Aura as an Arcane GM that shared the auras and extended the durations of auras, and then Adept and Master having boon on aura trait options, we would have a tough time choosing to pick Auras or standard Elemental Attunement / Evasive Arcana style.

Why they didn’t do this I will never understand.

I’m in a place where i agree with the OP about tempest not being a numbers issue, however at the same time i dont want to say its a concept issue either.

From my point of view on the elite specs i see them as a “side-grade” a step sideways as to what the classes can become. the problem i have with the elementalist is that most if not all of what tempest brings to the game is very “bland” i would say is the correct phrase?

The warhorn skills do not do enough for what they are and no chance to reduce the cool down on them their effects dont give me as a player anything that i want to rush out into using and the overloads while visually nice to look at, they dont do enough for what they are. yes the argument can be made that they don’t follow what the play style of the ele is flipping through elements based on the need at the time. i can even agree that the aura sharing and boon sharing idea can be done better by d/d ele.

the problem is i dont think they need to go back to the drawing board on the tempest and i dont think they should give us the sword and call it a day its not a fix its more of a band aid on a wound. i believe that the warhorn skills should be more like point blank AoE skills that give some more damage or control to the class, or give them utility that rivals the Cantrips that most if not all people use and free up slots for more build diversity.

i think the team is in a rough spot with ele since it can do everything, but its not supposed to be dominate at everything because it makes it too powerful and invalidates other classes. the Tempest should have been the last class to be revealed and had more work done on it rather than have it shown off to us in the state that it is currently in simply because they need time to come up with a concept that the ele can slide into that would be its logical side-grade.

I’ll never understand why people like the concept of an auramancer. The whole mechanic promotes face tanking and unskillful play. It basically screams “hey hit me so I can get the benefits of this aura surrounding me”. That just seems boring to me.

Zxavier Augistine.7312:

snip

I think this needs some “back to the drawing board” for the dev team.

I am not saying they should just give the sword or another weapon to appease the masses and call it a day (I was personally rooting for a shorbow btw).

But I agree with you that they need to find a side grade – i.e., a new role – to provide the class with. Tempest fails at this completely by trying to compete with the role of D/D cele ele.

Can they do it with warhorn? Sure they can. Any weapon has the potential of providing the side grade / new role. But they are still very far from achieving this.

Lyger.5429:

I’ll never understand why people like the concept of an auramancer. The whole mechanic promotes face tanking and unskillful play. It basically screams “hey hit me so I can get the benefits of this aura surrounding me”. That just seems boring to me.

Yes, auras by themselves are a passive style, but if the traits carried with them some active mechanic (e.g., the healing on applying aura) they could become a bit more active style instead of just spam them all. Who knows? Auramancer died too young.

I felt really rushed to me: no animation on horn, traits are unimaginative, ineffective melee gameplay and overload mechanic.

Anet needs to take the time it takes to set this thing back on track.
I hope they will listen to the community.

Don’t equate tempest=warhorn. Overloads are what bring something new (having a reason to stay in an attunement for ~8s), and they’ve just number problems.

Adrian Guardian.9480:

Don’t equate tempest=warhorn. Overloads are what bring something new (having a reason to stay in an attunement for ~8s), and they’ve just number problems.

the problem is, we have been trained for a long time to flip through attunements like the pages of a book. theres a tool for every situation and yes staying in an attunement long enough to get a powerful skill is a positive, however in a high speed skill based class why stick to an element when it will mess up your rotation? even if staying in an attunement is their idea of a “side-grade” there arent enough benefits in using them. they dont change the battle they dont do well enough to be skills we want to use.

On top of that we have to take a trait line to use them, and we basically are stuck using 2 lines that are mandatory to be effective, water and arcane, respectively, which limits our overall build diversity. I want to branch out from being in water and arcane but they have the best traits and we have used them for 3 years with little to no change. what makes the tempest line something we MUST use? from what i played i would not pick that line because water does things better, and arcane makes the tempest line look like a gimmick.

Zxavier Augistine.7312:

the problem is, we have been trained for a long time to flip through attunements like the pages of a book. theres a tool for every situation and yes staying in an attunement long enough to get a powerful skill is a positive, however in a high speed skill based class why stick to an element when it will mess up your rotation? even if staying in an attunement is their idea of a “side-grade” there arent enough benefits in using them. they dont change the battle they dont do well enough to be skills we want to use.

That’s why I meant it’s a numbers problem, it’s about being enough benefits to be worth using them on most of your attunement swaps.

Zxavier Augistine.7312:

On top of that we have to take a trait line to use them, and we basically are stuck using 2 lines that are mandatory to be effective, water and arcane, respectively, which limits our overall build diversity. I want to branch out from being in water and arcane but they have the best traits and we have used them for 3 years with little to no change. what makes the tempest line something we MUST use? from what i played i would not pick that line because water does things better, and arcane makes the tempest line look like a gimmick.

If you use overloads a lot, arcane becomes much less useful, since you’re not swapping attunements often enough to benefit from swapping recharge reduction and boon-on-swap traits, freeing a trait line.

Adrian Guardian.9480:

Don’t equate tempest=warhorn. Overloads are what bring something new (having a reason to stay in an attunement for ~8s), and they’ve just number problems.

Overloads are absolutely a concept problem. They demand you make colossal sacrifices in return for the exact same things you could’ve had if you were just playing a regular d/d F/W/Ar build. Even if the numbers were worth it the mechanic would still be bad because there would be no decision to make. You could simply solve when to overload and when to not overload based on some simple criteria that would likely encompass 95% of all situations.

Coldtart.4785:

Adrian Guardian.9480:

Don’t equate tempest=warhorn. Overloads are what bring something new (having a reason to stay in an attunement for ~8s), and they’ve just number problems.

Overloads are absolutely a concept problem. They demand you make colossal sacrifices in return for the exact same things you could’ve had if you were just playing a regular d/d F/W/Ar build. Even if the numbers were worth it the mechanic would still be bad because there would be no decision to make. You could simply solve when to overload and when to not overload based on some simple criteria that would likely encompass 95% of all situations.

The damage rotation I was using during beta (I kind of had to imagine that the numbers were good enough…. for overload fire they are) was 5s in fire → overload fire → 5s in air → overload air → use water and/or earth → back to fire. It’s a slow (25-30s) rotation, which makes it a different playstyle. It’s about being able getting the same kind of result by playing differently imo, not about in-combat choices like the revanant has.

It’s not a number problem, it’s definitely a design issue.

Tempest is said to be support (lets put aside the fact that it support pretty poorly), but what the freaking interest to be support if you’re not tanky ?
Tempest do NOT allow you to survive and it’s even worst: it COUNTER-synergize with our defense mechanic water and arcana …..

Tempest trait line NEEDS to provide cleanse and/or heal, or any kind of damage mitigation

Adrian Guardian.9480:

The damage rotation I was using during beta (I kind of had to imagine that the numbers were good enough…. for overload fire they are) was 5s in fire -> overload fire -> 5s in air -> overload air -> use water and/or earth -> back to fire. It’s a slow (25-30s) rotation, which makes it a different playstyle. It’s about being able getting the same kind of result by playing differently imo, not about in-combat choices like the revanant has.

What were you doing 5s in fire attunement?

rotten.9753:

Adrian Guardian.9480:

The damage rotation I was using during beta (I kind of had to imagine that the numbers were good enough…. for overload fire they are) was 5s in fire -> overload fire -> 5s in air -> overload air -> use water and/or earth -> back to fire. It’s a slow (25-30s) rotation, which makes it a different playstyle. It’s about being able getting the same kind of result by playing differently imo, not about in-combat choices like the revanant has.

What were you doing 5s in fire attunement?

wasting time in an effort to prove that using overloads is actually less efficient at everything they are supposed to do it seems.

rotten.9753:

Adrian Guardian.9480:

The damage rotation I was using during beta (I kind of had to imagine that the numbers were good enough…. for overload fire they are) was 5s in fire -> overload fire -> 5s in air -> overload air -> use water and/or earth -> back to fire. It’s a slow (25-30s) rotation, which makes it a different playstyle. It’s about being able getting the same kind of result by playing differently imo, not about in-combat choices like the revanant has.

What were you doing 5s in fire attunement?

Well with D/D you need to use all 4 skills which take up 4 seconds (Drake’s Breath 2¼, Burning Speed ¾, Ring of Fire ¼, Fire Grab ¾) and then 2 autos (Dragon’s Claw ½) so it’s not far fetched.

Zxavier Augistine.7312:

Adrian Guardian.9480:

Don’t equate tempest=warhorn. Overloads are what bring something new (having a reason to stay in an attunement for ~8s), and they’ve just number problems.

the problem is, we have been trained for a long time to flip through attunements like the pages of a book. theres a tool for every situation and yes staying in an attunement long enough to get a powerful skill is a positive, however in a high speed skill based class why stick to an element when it will mess up your rotation? even if staying in an attunement is their idea of a “side-grade” there arent enough benefits in using them. they dont change the battle they dont do well enough to be skills we want to use.

That can change. I’m actually hoping, if the devs decide “okay, maybe they’re right and this doesn’t provide enough of a variation on ele” that they will aim to make an attunement camping style out of Tempest. That isn’t to say it should be all about never swapping from an attunement and sticking with only one but rather to swap or not should be a defining choice in a battle. Currently there is no choice, rotations make practically your whole plate open at full power at any time. Of course that’s not a bad thing but I feel it often leads to mediocrity, i.e. most of Ele spells need to be watered down compared to normal weapon skills. But if there was a level of power achievable by focusing on a specific aspect of a fight, it changes your view on the choices you make.

Zxavier Augistine.7312:

On top of that we have to take a trait line to use them, and we basically are stuck using 2 lines that are mandatory to be effective, water and arcane, respectively, which limits our overall build diversity. I want to branch out from being in water and arcane but they have the best traits and we have used them for 3 years with little to no change. what makes the tempest line something we MUST use? from what i played i would not pick that line because water does things better, and arcane makes the tempest line look like a gimmick.

I always hear this. Not picking on your but it feels hypocritical to me to hold yourself hostage and then blame it on something completely unrelated (the Tempest trait line). Why not ask to migrate functionality out of Arcane then? They already took some functionality from Water and yet people complain things are too spread out (or that it was done so for the sake of giving Tempest something interesting). I honestly wouldn’t blink an eye if they started doing that just because people complain they are pressured into Arcane and Water.

Or we can just view the aspects available in Arcane and Water as worthy sacrifices but stay privy to said sacrifices (since choosing them means you can’t choose other things in their place).

Adrian Guardian.9480:

If you use overloads a lot, arcane becomes much less useful, since you’re not swapping attunements often enough to benefit from swapping recharge reduction and boon-on-swap traits, freeing a trait line.

Overloads have more than just number problems, the whole concept of channelling anything at point-blank range for up to 5 secs as the lightest armour/lowest HP class with no innate stability has major issues.

The best thing I think they could do is make Overloads castable at 900 range and have their storm effects move in the direction of casting like a moving AOE, and then bumping up the ranges of warhorn skills so Tempest plays in the 600-900 range.

Theoretically scepter is 600-900 range but it kinda sucks at that range.

Adrian Guardian.9480:

Don’t equate tempest=warhorn. Overloads are what bring something new (having a reason to stay in an attunement for ~8s), and they’ve just number problems.

You missed the point completely and I hope ANET doesn’t miss it like you did. In fact, you ignored so much in this topic you even ignored me saying that Warhorn is not the issue.

Overloading an attunement changes you from your standard rotation? Sure it dos.

Problem is Tempest, including with Overload, does not bring a new role.

Your comment states that you just want it to be worth it to use overload vs. doing our rotations to do a role of a “brawler / group support”.

Again, if you want that then you just want Tempest to fight over the same role with D/D cele ele and, naturally, the best one at the job will prevail. So either Tempest will be weaker at it and most people won’t bother with it (a complete failure for a new feature being added) or it will be stronger and break the balance (also a complete failure for a new feature being added).

The problem is much more than a numbers issue. Again, it is a concept/design issue.

Overloads are a huge conceptual problem:
(1) They make no sense to use with staff
(2) They impair the class mechanic, work against elemental attunement and boon duration
(3) stability problems, cooldown problems, effect problems, risk/reward problems, does nothing new problem, cant dodge while overloading problem, etc.

This is my idea of what I think the overload concept should have been:
An ele overloading has no more cooldowns on attunement swapping for the next 10 seconds. At the end of these 10 seconds his tempest elite skill activate, giving him the option to summon a storm that has a 2500 radius on the field (cooldown 2:30).

Sword and mobile assassin like playstyle plz, thx

I like the idea of overloads having a bit more of a passive style to them. So as you stay in an attunment you have a snowball effect. you build stacks of overload and every second stack adds a new effect. so for fire it might start as “Pulses might” then builds up to “Pulses Might, Pulses burning.” Then the 3rd one adds a mobile fire field centered on you, dealing constant damage to enemies in it. however at anytime you can vent your overload stacks getting an effect based on what stacks you reached. If you vent before switching attunment. then your attunment cooldown is normal. if you don’t Vent. your attunment cooldown is lengthened but you get a feedback effect

So venting your fire overload might give you alacrity
Not venting creates a large explosion that knocks enemies back

Azel.4786:

Adrian Guardian.9480:

Don’t equate tempest=warhorn. Overloads are what bring something new (having a reason to stay in an attunement for ~8s), and they’ve just number problems.

You missed the point completely and I hope ANET doesn’t miss it like you did. In fact, you ignored so much in this topic you even ignored me saying that Warhorn is not the issue.

Overloading an attunement changes you from your standard rotation? Sure it dos.

Problem is Tempest, including with Overload, does not bring a new role.

Your comment states that you just want it to be worth it to use overload vs. doing our rotations to do a role of a “brawler / group support”.

Again, if you want that then you just want Tempest to fight over the same role with D/D cele ele and, naturally, the best one at the job will prevail. So either Tempest will be weaker at it and most people won’t bother with it (a complete failure for a new feature being added) or it will be stronger and break the balance (also a complete failure for a new feature being added).

The problem is much more than a numbers issue. Again, it is a concept/design issue.

I left the brawler/support discussion to others because it’s not a role I’m looking for (D/D already has it…). Mid-line support is what I’d like. Staff+overloads+shouts is mid-line support/nuking unlike normal staff which is back-line (dungeons don’t count). I wish scepter+warhorn would fill that role too, but the problem lies with scepter.

sidenote: scerevisiae’s stormlike moving overloads is a cool idea, no idea if it’d be better or worse than currrent mechanic, could be fun, I like water globe on warhorn.

Adrian Guardian.9480:

I left the brawler/support discussion to others because it’s not a role I’m looking for (D/D already has it…). Mid-line support is what I’d like. Staff+overloads+shouts is mid-line support/nuking unlike normal staff which is back-line (dungeons don’t count). I wish scepter+warhorn would fill that role too, but the problem lies with scepter.

sidenote: scerevisiae’s stormlike moving overloads is a cool idea, no idea if it’d be better or worse than currrent mechanic, could be fun, I like water globe on warhorn.

How do you use overloads at mid range?

rotten.9753:

Adrian Guardian.9480:

I left the brawler/support discussion to others because it’s not a role I’m looking for (D/D already has it…). Mid-line support is what I’d like. Staff+overloads+shouts is mid-line support/nuking unlike normal staff which is back-line (dungeons don’t count). I wish scepter+warhorn would fill that role too, but the problem lies with scepter.

sidenote: scerevisiae’s stormlike moving overloads is a cool idea, no idea if it’d be better or worse than currrent mechanic, could be fun, I like water globe on warhorn.

How do you use overloads at mid range?

Indeed, how do you use a 180 radius fire overload at mid range?

@Adrian Guardian.9480

This new post makes it sound like you agree that the issue is a design/concept rather than just numbers.

Overloads were designed as a melee brawler/support ability. A.k.a what we already have, so now that you are talking about wanting it to be different (mid range ability), well that is a redesign and not just a number issue.

Aura support is good for just the auras the boons that come along with the auras offten fall short of being useful due to there low duration. D/d ele more about self support then pt support (that and tempest can d/d support as well as ele can so i am not sure what up with that).

It dose come down to a numbers problem with tempest and to buff it would push the tempest class into a super support if it went too far then it would become way stronger then ele as is and may push into power creep. A kind of the class can support so well that it start to self support to where its dmg is high.

It would be a fun ideal to try a d/d tempest water arcain build full aura support (not aura boons) with 1 or 2 aura shouts.

Grimreaper.5370:

Sword and mobile assassin like playstyle plz, thx

DD already could be played as a mobile assassin if only there was a way for eles to play anything else than celestial amulet and water+arcane+cantrips. A new traitline won’t fix the core ele problems of being forced into water+arcane+cantrips to have ANY defense at all (now that auras on signets are gone too…)

Zerker DD ele assassin (with signets and auras) hit-and-run style was SO MUCH FUN when the game was released, but sadly we were soon after nerfed into oblivion so only celestial brawlers survived (even zerker DD went arcane of course).

The one thing that made a hit-and-run playstyle possible on Eles? Ride the kittening Lightning on a reasonable cooldown (16 seconds at launch, 12 with the trait, none of that double cooldown nonsense). Mesmers and Thieves both have stealth and great in-combat mobility and escapes for defense. Eles had RTL to get in and out fast.

But now they only have boons for defense, which means celestial brawler.

The only problem RTL had was the buggy 1550 range which was too far. 16 seconds 1200 range would have been balanced from the get-go.

The question I ask is can the elementalist be given a new role without threading too much in other professions territory? Also I do see the appeal of the ele specialisations instead of adding something new, specialize in the aspects it already has. Moving a bit away of that jack of all stick? I mean base ele has no fully specialized weapon so that could be ‘fixed’ with specialisations.

That being said overloads seems a bit strange for an ele. Base ele is designed and balanced aroun swapping attunements and overloading seems to contradict this completely. Maybe if they reduced time requirements (like the cast times lower and the initial requirement gone) for a burst of boons and damage (raw or condition) I could see this work.

rotten.9753:

Adrian Guardian.9480:

sidenote: scerevisiae’s stormlike moving overloads is a cool idea, no idea if it’d be better or worse than currrent mechanic, could be fun, I like water globe on warhorn.

How do you use overloads at mid range?

That’s the problem: they’re useless at anything but point-blank range currently, and fairly useless there too because of he long channel, weak effects, and punitive consequences to interruption.

Mid-range overloads came up because I proposed the best way to make them work is make (some or all of) them castable at ~900 range and have the resulting storm AOE move in a direction like a slow projectile. This would work pretty well with the fire and air overloads, the animations wouldn’t even need to change.

They have the tech now for moving fire/lightning fields so this could be pretty cool…. the point is though, overloads would be usable with multiple weapon types instead of just dagger.

i still think the earth overload should be a pulsing knockdown or some kind of CC instead of the cripple + bleed that we have now, and the water overload should burst heal at the end.

Zxavier Augistine.7312:

i still think the earth overload should be a pulsing knockdown or some kind of CC instead of the cripple + bleed that we have now, and the water overload should burst heal at the end.

The Earth Overload doesn’t even Bleed…that being said, I agree it should be stronger, but a pulsing Knockdown could end up as a more spammable Engi Slick Shoes and well, no one wants that.

Zxavier Augistine.7312:

i still think the earth overload should be a pulsing knockdown or some kind of CC instead of the cripple + bleed that we have now, and the water overload should burst heal at the end.

Earth Overload doesn’t even bleed right now, it just cripples. Pulsing knockback would probably be OP but a knockback with the blast finisher at the end would make sense. As would pulsing bleeds.

Malchior.5732:

Zxavier Augistine.7312:

i still think the earth overload should be a pulsing knockdown or some kind of CC instead of the cripple + bleed that we have now, and the water overload should burst heal at the end.

The Earth Overload doesn’t even Bleed…that being said, I agree it should be stronger, but a pulsing Knockdown could end up as a more spammable Engi Slick Shoes and well, no one wants that.

im sorry, i meant imoba and cripple, i dont know why i said bleed. Also the duration of the skill is 5 sec if it pulses knock downs once per second i dont think its that OP, but if people agree that it is ill gladly retract my idea. :P

Tim.6450:

The question I ask is can the elementalist be given a new role without threading too much in other professions territory? Also I do see the appeal of the ele specialisations instead of adding something new, specialize in the aspects it already has. Moving a bit away of that jack of all stick? I mean base ele has no fully specialized weapon so that could be ‘fixed’ with specialisations.

That being said overloads seems a bit strange for an ele. Base ele is designed and balanced aroun swapping attunements and overloading seems to contradict this completely. Maybe if they reduced time requirements (like the cast times lower and the initial requirement gone) for a burst of boons and damage (raw or condition) I could see this work.

There is nothing wrong with threading in another class role. It will just play differently and people can choose what they want to play best.

In any case, there are other roles that the Elementalist can’t do that it could do with the Elite Specialization, such as a Mid range single target DPS or a frontline ZvZ style.

Azel.4786:

Tim.6450:

The question I ask is can the elementalist be given a new role without threading too much in other professions territory? Also I do see the appeal of the ele specialisations instead of adding something new, specialize in the aspects it already has. Moving a bit away of that jack of all stick? I mean base ele has no fully specialized weapon so that could be ‘fixed’ with specialisations.

That being said overloads seems a bit strange for an ele. Base ele is designed and balanced aroun swapping attunements and overloading seems to contradict this completely. Maybe if they reduced time requirements (like the cast times lower and the initial requirement gone) for a burst of boons and damage (raw or condition) I could see this work.

There is nothing wrong with threading in another class role. It will just play differently and people can choose what they want to play best.

In any case, there are other roles that the Elementalist can’t do that it could do with the Elite Specialization, such as a Mid range single target DPS or a frontline ZvZ style.

I think you missed what I said I mean. For instance I meant that ele would offer things like boon removal/corruption, stealth, aoe stability… . The elementalist has a diverse set of tools already they’re just spread out over the weapons so to really create a “new role” I believe that the ele would have to take elements that right now felt out of their toolkit. Which bothers me a bit.

Also has fresh air spec not been a mid range single target dps spec?

Tim.6450:

I think you missed what I said I mean. For instance I meant that ele would offer things like boon removal/corruption, stealth, aoe stability… . The elementalist has a diverse set of tools already they’re just spread out over the weapons so to really create a “new role” I believe that the ele would have to take elements that right now felt out of their toolkit. Which bothers me a bit.

Also has fresh air spec not been a mid range single target dps spec?

Well, getting things that the class didn’t offer before is the whole premises of the elite specializations no?

And look at mesmer, what is stopping the dev team from developing a whole new boon/condi or mechanic with the Tempest and thus offering it a new role?

And fresh air needs changes to make it viable, today it is not particularly due to how poor the scepter is. S/Wh could be the thing for this elite specialization.

Azel.4786:

Tim.6450:

I think you missed what I said I mean. For instance I meant that ele would offer things like boon removal/corruption, stealth, aoe stability… . The elementalist has a diverse set of tools already they’re just spread out over the weapons so to really create a “new role” I believe that the ele would have to take elements that right now felt out of their toolkit. Which bothers me a bit.

Also has fresh air spec not been a mid range single target dps spec?

Well, getting things that the class didn’t offer before is the whole premises of the elite specializations no?

To a certain extent yes, but the lack of synergy with existing traitlines would be a problem.

The Great Al.2546:

To a certain extent yes, but the lack of synergy with existing traitlines would be a problem.

True, but if it will offer a synergy or not depends on how the elite specialization and its abilities are designed.

Right now Tempest is designed horribly, but if they go back to the drawing board and bring something better, we might be able to have something that works.

Azel.4786:

The Great Al.2546:

To a certain extent yes, but the lack of synergy with existing traitlines would be a problem.

True, but if it will offer a synergy or not depends on how the elite specialization and its abilities are designed.

Right now Tempest is designed horribly, but if they go back to the drawing board and bring something better, we might be able to have something that works.

Sounds like "If they forego budget and time constraints until they bring something to appease me, I might not complain constantly. . .Might not. "

It’s like people now a days don’t know the meaning of the word compromise.

Leo G.4501:

Sounds like "If they forego budget and time constraints until they bring something to appease me, I might not complain constantly. . .Might not. "

It’s like people now a days don’t know the meaning of the word compromise.

What?

Dude, it can bring a new role that I am not interested in right now… I would still give it a shot and hey, I may find I like it more or not. But what I want are options to play new roles and have versatility with my favorite class.

Sue me for that if you want, but I will not support ANET giving us the same role for those that just want a buffed version of our excellent way of doing a brawler / group support role just to see my class nerfed into oblivion a couple of weeks after launch of HoT.

Azel.4786:

Leo G.4501:

Sounds like "If they forego budget and time constraints until they bring something to appease me, I might not complain constantly. . .Might not. "

It’s like people now a days don’t know the meaning of the word compromise.

What?

Dude, it can bring a new role that I am not interested in right now… I would still give it a shot and hey, I may find I like it more or not. But what I want are options to play new roles and have versatility with my favorite class.

Sue me for that if you want, but I will not support ANET giving us the same role for those that just want a buffed version of our excellent way of doing a brawler / group support role just to see my class nerfed into oblivion a couple of weeks after launch of HoT.

Well telling someone to just go back to the drawing board is hardly constrictive feedback and should be seen as a last resort. It’d be different if you had leverage on decisions being made within the dev group but you don’t so you’ve got no leverage to suggest they throw away resources.

Leo G.4501:

Well telling someone to just go back to the drawing board is hardly constrictive feedback and should be seen as a last resort. It’d be different if you had leverage on decisions being made within the dev group but you don’t so you’ve got no leverage to suggest they throw away resources.

Yes it is constructive in what we can offer them.

When you have a project you need to have leaders to design the goal you want to achieve. The community can hardly do this due to the level of disorganization it has. It can throw several ideas around, but it can hardly form the goal.

The dev team needs to form the goal and communicate it to us. We might not all like it / love the new role, but if we have one goal to work towards to we can help make it fun.

The problem is the Dev team missed the mark completely on the “entirely new role” objective that was laid out to them by the “Big bosses” with the Elite Specializations. So yes, we have to call them out on that and have them going back to the drawing board to adjust that.

If we do not call them out – and calling them out is the whole reason of this topic – we are all just here discussing on how the Tempest is not better than D/D cele ele and how it can be better (just look at a lot of the suggestions that have been going around and how they would completely make D/D cele ele OP or the elementalist OP in the brawler / group support role ).

Does this mean they have to throw everything out of the window? No! But we need this new objective – this new role idea – and then we can start to help them fine tune it, then maybe we can salvage some of the ideas that Tempest was bringing, maybe not all.

Calling people out accomplishes nothing. If all I did was call out people on their mistakes in my line of work, I’d have no time to actually accomplish anything. One can highlight someone’s mistakes (that’s what criticism is), but if that’s all you can manage, you should back down and let the creative minds form a solution.

Leo G.4501:

Calling people out accomplishes nothing. If all I did was call out people on their mistakes in my line of work, I’d have no time to actually accomplish anything. One can highlight someone’s mistakes (that’s what criticism is), but if that’s all you can manage, you should back down and let the creative minds form a solution.

The very design of tempest is one’s dev mistake. It’s really hard not to point that when one is faced with such a results of many iterations.

According to internal ele forum poll, the best element of tempest is the new healing skill. That tells a lot…

Leo G.4501:

Calling people out accomplishes nothing. If all I did was call out people on their mistakes in my line of work, I’d have no time to actually accomplish anything. One can highlight someone’s mistakes (that’s what criticism is), but if that’s all you can manage, you should back down and let the creative minds form a solution.

If there was any sort of communication on the issue things might calm down.

My main issue with tempest is the fact that using “Shouts” or “overload” give you access to shared auras and that makes “Powerful Aura” irrelevant and useless. The optimum build for aura sharing will be the use of shouts so what’s the reason to waste an already underused trait for it? In my opinion Powerful Auras trait should change.

Another issue with Tempest is the fact that his gameplay is similar to DD ele gameplay. I was expecting for Tempest to be a control focused specialisation. Tempest could have skills that focus on stun, daze, slow maybe even knock backs and pulls. He could still be front line but his role would be to stop the enemy from attacking and support via that and not via buffs again…

Lastly this Specialisation lacks mobility, I would expect him to have a teleport or a leap, so you can also play scepter / warhorn and not only dagger… A front liner has to have mobility!

Jaetara.4075:

My main issue with tempest is the fact that using “Shouts” or “overload” give you access to shared auras and that makes “Powerful Aura” irrelevant and useless. The optimum build for aura sharing will be the use of shouts so what’s the reason to waste an already underused trait for it? In my opinion Powerful Auras trait should change.

Another issue with Tempest is the fact that his gameplay is similar to DD ele gameplay. I was expecting for Tempest to be a control focused specialisation. Tempest could have skills that focus on stun, daze, slow maybe even knock backs and pulls. He could still be front line but his role would be to stop the enemy from attacking and support via that and not via buffs again…

Lastly this Specialisation lacks mobility, I would expect him to have a teleport or a leap, so you can also play scepter / warhorn and not only dagger… A front liner has to have mobility!

I think shout auras with powerful auras gives your team double aura effect the thing is only frost aura duration stacking is not bugged all the others are. I guess you will still double heal your team though with the auras healing effect. Now only if eye of the storm was a shocking aura.

Water Overload – Absorb projectiles while channeling.
Earth Overload – Stability while channeling.
Air Overload – Lightning strikes inflict blind while channeling.
Fire Overload – Evade while channeling.

That would solve overload issues without making them broken by making them all grant stability. You can’t just add stability to everything.

Maybe make water overloads bubble larger so you can block projectiles from allies too.

What if overload recharged all weapon skills in the current attunement?

Zefrost.3425:

Water Overload – Absorb projectiles while channeling.
Earth Overload – Stability while channeling.
Air Overload – Lightning strikes inflict blind while channeling.
Fire Overload – Evade while channeling.

That would solve overload issues without making them broken by making them all grant stability. You can’t just add stability to everything.

Stab on everything would be fine, because the penalty for interruption is so high (20sec CD). I’d rather overloads were reduced down to something reasonable (eg: 1sec cast) with less punitive consequences for interruption, eg: 5sec CD.

Having to channel anything for 5sec in close range is not fun/engaging gameplay… especially when the rewards for channelling are so crap.