(edited by KreatE.7612)
Tempest promotes awesome new playstyle!
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Sorry, that was a lot longer than intended.
TLDR: Tempest has risk/reward playstyle that ele is lacking, and thats awesome!
(edited by KreatE.7612)
I agree, I very much enjoyed the tempest as well but i feel that they did it too conservatively. I think the impact of the overloads should be far greater (in aoe and impact) and kick you out for say 30s (preferably not reducible via arcane line) like you mentioned. I enjoy a play-style where you are rewarded for staying in one attunemnt for a while and getting the most out of it then swapping.
The only extra change I would like to see is that IF the overload completes, you are instantly kicked out of all your attunemnt and left with an empty skill bar untill you chose a new attunment.
if you want risk/reward play fresh air, although the reward couldbne better the risk is definitely there.
support should not be based on risk/reward, so that’s already a flaw in its design.
Ex player of PeanutButterJellyTime, Heavenly Annoying and Visceral Gaming.
if you want risk/reward play fresh air, although the reward couldbne better the risk is definitely there.
This rolls back into the ‘glass cannon’ playstyle I mentioned earlier with staff ele. While fresh air is risky to play the on the spot decision making isn’t there, which was the point I was trying to point out when I mentioned thinking of when to overload. Glass cannon is very simple gameplay in that sense, you just always do high dmg and are squishy, its not very thoughtful.
Hence tempest promotes a new playstyle of risk/reward (that is new in that it requires on point decision making and play-by-play risk/rewards to a level elementalists have not had access to yet).
However, thats just one mans opinion. But my opinion is scientifically proven to be the right one.
Tempest has great potential for creating group comps that can heal on the fly and removes the need for empowers due to boon share (works great for guards that heal when they gain boons and reapers that get life force).
The shouts aren’t quite there yet. They all need to provide auras and some need reduced cooldowns.
The overloads aren’t worth casting. Water needs a water field, fire needs longer might duration, air needs more damage or cc, earth is okay.
The gm trait that heals when an aura applied should give stability instead.
These changes alone would make tempest a viable option in terms of gvg/large scale wvw.
The issues after that will come from their survivability.
Bad Elementalist
“So what kind of feedback are we looking for? (…) Do the elite specializations feel like they are creating an entirely new role for your main profession?”
“Risk/Reward” is not a role
What you need to look at is what does tempest provide the ele that base ele doesn’t have. the answer is nothing. In terms of role, Tempest is a weaker version of the roles we already fill.
Imagine if fire overload had a 600 radius and did 15k dmg over 6 seconds in cele gear. but then kicked you out of fire for 30 seconds. To me, that sounds AWESOME and hopefully anet will push it more in that direction as HoT gets closer.
Do you realize that with D/D Ele, spamming Air #1 can get you an expected dps of 2500 per second (since you hit twice per second)?
That means you get the same 15k dps after 6s without locking you out of an attunement. If you use a staff, it’s even more dps if you use a Staff just purely by spamming Fire 1/2/3.
There is no good incentive to Overload except for showing off beautiful animation.
Gray out the HP for future condition damage
Already quit PvP. Just log in here and there to troll.
Already quit PvP. Just log in here and there to troll.
I loved how full shout tempest played so much, but it def needs seeeerious buffs
Imagine if fire overload had a 600 radius and did 15k dmg over 6 seconds in cele gear. but then kicked you out of fire for 30 seconds. To me, that sounds AWESOME and hopefully anet will push it more in that direction as HoT gets closer.
Do you realize that with D/D Ele, spamming Air #1 can get you an expected dps of 2500 per second (since you hit twice per second)?
That means you get the same 15k dps after 6s without locking you out of an attunement. If you use a staff, it’s even more dps if you use a Staff just purely by spamming Fire 1/2/3.
There is no good incentive to Overload except for showing off beautiful animation.
Not to mention burning damage(estimate around 1k per second) + Bleeds (throw in 400) plus Air1 at a consertive 2k = 3.5k/sec = 21k damage in 6 seconds. But targets are never that stupid to stand there and recieve the full brunt. Unless we are talking about pve. Not sure about pve. Maybe tempest was made for pve?
Imagine if fire overload had a 600 radius and did 15k dmg over 6 seconds in cele gear. but then kicked you out of fire for 30 seconds. To me, that sounds AWESOME and hopefully anet will push it more in that direction as HoT gets closer.
Do you realize that with D/D Ele, spamming Air #1 can get you an expected dps of 2500 per second (since you hit twice per second)?
That means you get the same 15k dps after 6s without locking you out of an attunement. If you use a staff, it’s even more dps if you use a Staff just purely by spamming Fire 1/2/3.
There is no good incentive to Overload except for showing off beautiful animation.
Not to mention burning damage(estimate around 1k per second) + Bleeds (throw in 400) plus Air1 at a consertive 2k = 3.5k/sec = 21k damage in 6 seconds. But targets are never that stupid to stand there and recieve the full brunt. Unless we are talking about pve. Not sure about pve. Maybe tempest was made for pve?
Hitting with Lightning Whip constantly is much easier than hitting with Fire Overload and can’t get screwed over by a single CC…
If Tempest was made solely for PvE, then it’s a gigantic failure; doesn’t even come close to competing with Staff in any role except maybe Boon Sharing, which shouldn’t be an issue in 5-man content anyway.
Imagine if fire overload had a 600 radius and did 15k dmg over 6 seconds in cele gear. but then kicked you out of fire for 30 seconds. To me, that sounds AWESOME and hopefully anet will push it more in that direction as HoT gets closer.
Do you realize that with D/D Ele, spamming Air #1 can get you an expected dps of 2500 per second (since you hit twice per second)?
That means you get the same 15k dps after 6s without locking you out of an attunement. If you use a staff, it’s even more dps if you use a Staff just purely by spamming Fire 1/2/3.
There is no good incentive to Overload except for showing off beautiful animation.
Not to mention burning damage(estimate around 1k per second) + Bleeds (throw in 400) plus Air1 at a consertive 2k = 3.5k/sec = 21k damage in 6 seconds. But targets are never that stupid to stand there and recieve the full brunt. Unless we are talking about pve. Not sure about pve. Maybe tempest was made for pve?
Hitting with Lightning Whip constantly is much easier than hitting with Fire Overload and can’t get screwed over by a single CC…
If Tempest was made solely for PvE, then it’s a gigantic failure; doesn’t even come close to competing with Staff in any role except maybe Boon Sharing, which shouldn’t be an issue in 5-man content anyway.
You can burst burn while spamming A1.
For boon sharing, thats what some eles are telling me about the strengths for the upcoming changes.
Imagine if fire overload had a 600 radius and did 15k dmg over 6 seconds in cele gear. but then kicked you out of fire for 30 seconds. To me, that sounds AWESOME and hopefully anet will push it more in that direction as HoT gets closer.
Do you realize that with D/D Ele, spamming Air #1 can get you an expected dps of 2500 per second (since you hit twice per second)?
That means you get the same 15k dps after 6s without locking you out of an attunement. If you use a staff, it’s even more dps if you use a Staff just purely by spamming Fire 1/2/3.
There is no good incentive to Overload except for showing off beautiful animation.
Not to mention burning damage(estimate around 1k per second) + Bleeds (throw in 400) plus Air1 at a consertive 2k = 3.5k/sec = 21k damage in 6 seconds. But targets are never that stupid to stand there and recieve the full brunt. Unless we are talking about pve. Not sure about pve. Maybe tempest was made for pve?
Hitting with Lightning Whip constantly is much easier than hitting with Fire Overload and can’t get screwed over by a single CC…
If Tempest was made solely for PvE, then it’s a gigantic failure; doesn’t even come close to competing with Staff in any role except maybe Boon Sharing, which shouldn’t be an issue in 5-man content anyway.You can burst burn while spamming A1.
For boon sharing, thats what some eles are telling me about the strengths for the upcoming changes.
Boons sharing is good, but it’s because of Warhorn, not Overload. Overload is still pretty useless except for showing off the animations. People can deal better DPS by not using it. For the utility part, any potential utility is offset by the drawback of 5s waiting and casting time (and lock out of attunement).
Too many drawback for too little (or none) benefit. If you only look at the big number and don’t do the math, it appears to be fine. But as soon as math and opportunity cost are factored, we can see that Overloads are not worth the cost.
Gray out the HP for future condition damage
Already quit PvP. Just log in here and there to troll.
Already quit PvP. Just log in here and there to troll.
The biggest reason I love the tempest is the new play-style that it brings to the table. The risk/reward mechanic involved in overloading attunements locking you out of them for an extended period of time for a surge in power is a very interesting new mechanic that the elementalist currently has unavailable to them.
New play style? Haha, good one bro, good one. Risk/Reward mechanic doesn’t work here because of lack of good reward.
I am lazy to write it over and over. So sorry for my English.
The biggest reason I love the tempest is the new play-style that it brings to the table. The risk/reward mechanic involved in overloading attunements locking you out of them for an extended period of time for a surge in power is a very interesting new mechanic that the elementalist currently has unavailable to them.
New play style? Haha, good one bro, good one. Risk/Reward mechanic doesn’t work here because of lack of good reward.
HoT isn’t out yet, numbers are low now, agreed, but #s are easily tuned. I’m confident they will be tweaked based on BWE feedback. The playstyle IS there, its just weak with the current #s. Even though its weak, I still enjoy the direction of the tempest.
The play style they specifically mention is front line support.
The problem continues to be, in every regard, the Tempest is an inferior option to other classes or the same base class in this role. Every class is supposed to offer something unique or something advantageous to a group. Guardians bring stability, boons, and natural tankiness. Warriors bring Banner to rally downed people at range. Necromancers bring Well Bomb. Staff Elementalist brings support fields, CC and damage.
What does Tempest bring? What does Tempest add? Boons? Two Guardians already bring 24 stacks of Might and pretty much the only source of AOE Stability (Stand your Ground) for a group. Healing refresh? Staff Elementalists already drop Geyser under the refresh pile that is then blasted with Blast Finishers as the only real source of large scale AOE healing.
Where is the reward for all the abundantly clear risk?
Let me put this another way. All the reward you are talking about getting from all that risk I already get playing other, current Elementalist builds in the game. Many cases it already even requires a higher level of skill play to deliver (knowing combos, when use each combo, micro managing boons, boon generation, etc). So I already have the reward. I’m useful support. I’m useful damage. So all that’s really being offered here is a worse way to play the class for at best the same reward I already have.
This is the equivalent of tying one hand behind your back and saying, “See, this is a new way to play, super challenge mode, it’s so much more rewarding!”
Kodiak X – Blackgate
What does Tempest bring? What does Tempest add? Boons? Two Guardians already bring 24 stacks of Might and pretty much the only source of AOE Stability (Stand your Ground) for a group.
This is a terrible argument. Its like saying you should bother playing theif in pvp casue mesmer is a class already with burst and stealth potential.
ANET has alerady said that people should STOP FOCUSING ON THE NUMBERS. they are readily fixed. i mean would people be complaining if the fire overload suddenly did 5x the dmg with 5x the burn applications… no they wouldnt. \
yes ele is already good at creating might stacks. and sharing some buffs via arcane line. But tempest now offers an aura sharing via shouts which is lost previously. It offers a COMPLELTLy new playstyle of incentivizing not swapping attunments (which i enjoy). yes the overloards should be more impactful then they currently are but it also opens up new build archtypes.
a basic example is conjour wepons. say for pve when u use ur icebow or FGS, you can now swap to an attunemnt, use ur skills then ur conjoured wepon, and when ur done u can now use ur overload.
and in pvp this is supposed to be a zonning mechanic. previously they mainly just had rings/walls of fire which are not true denial. But now they can use overloads (with a bit of tuning) to make it so you really dont want to enter an area the same way you dont want to walk onto a node with necro wells on it.
I enjoyed the tempest and loved the new tricks you can do with it.
Out of the only 2 new abilities tempest provides (boon sharing and boon extension) the second one just got completely outclassed by the Revenant elite profession skill Facet of Nature, which also heals.
Also the Revenant got a new skill:
Elemental Blast
This skill represents the breath of Glint. It’s a ground-targeted skill in which you command dragon breath to cover the area, applying negative conditions to foes such as chill, weakness, and burning. It’s good for added damage or soft control.
Sounds like the elite skill we’ve all been dreaming of, but for that class it’s just an ordinary utility…
ANET has alerady said that people should STOP FOCUSING ON THE NUMBERS. they are readily fixed. i mean would people be complaining if the fire overload suddenly did 5x the dmg with 5x the burn applications… no they wouldnt. \
yes ele is already good at creating might stacks. and sharing some buffs via arcane line. But tempest now offers an aura sharing via shouts which is lost previously. It offers a COMPLELTLy new playstyle of incentivizing not swapping attunments (which i enjoy). yes the overloards should be more impactful then they currently are but it also opens up new build archtypes.
a basic example is conjour wepons. say for pve when u use ur icebow or FGS, you can now swap to an attunemnt, use ur skills then ur conjoured wepon, and when ur done u can now use ur overload…
I enjoyed the tempest and loved the new tricks you can do with it.
1: Numbers are important, if the risk is not worth the reward then tempest is not going to be used. Not swapping attunement is just lame, sorry. It’s not a new mechanic, it’s a lack of mechanic. It goes against how the class is played instead of adding upon it (unlike the other classes elite professions)
2: The elementalist was already good at sharing aura since the last trait update, we don’t need utilities to do what a trait can already do without making you lose your cantrips, which will ultimately still be used instead of the new shouts. There is nothing new about aura share.
3: While I understand what you are saying about conjured weapons, currently only the icebow is worth using for 2 skills, then people drop it because of the long cooldown on skill 4. The new mechanic should be a F5 key instead, like on mesmer, that overload your current attunement but doesn’t prevent you from swapping.
4: I played with it a few hours and really the “new tricks” you speak off are non-existent, there is just no synergy with tempest for interesting combos (I dare you to find 1 trick with tempest that is half as interesting as a Churning earth-lightning flash combo), as at melee range you cant stay alive with it since overloads are constantly interrupted.
(edited by Xillllix.3485)
This is a terrible argument. Its like saying you should bother playing theif in pvp casue mesmer is a class already with burst and stealth potential.
Actually this is why Mesmers aren’t brought in SPvP on high end teams over having Thieves. You have 5 slots on a SPvP team and only the best classes that make up a good team comp are going to fill those slots. You can bring unconventional classes, but if they don’t fit in the mix then they have no role in that part of the game.
The same is true for PvE. You again have 5 slots and need to complete the content. Now currently most PvE is simple enough you can bring any 5 classes with any spec and complete the content. However when you start looking at the extreme ends of the spectrum, such as Speed Running, Tempest has no place in that realm currently.
Even when you get into WvW front lines, you got 5 slots in a party. Parties are used to guarantee buffs to your party over random nearby people (if a party member is in range, they take priority over anyone else for 5 target capped abilities). This means comparisons are very real because when you have 2-3 slots mandatory going to be Guardians because of what they bring to the table you got 2-3 slots that N number of classes are competing for.
Every game mode has limited slots and every class and potential person is competing for those slots. So no, it’s really irrelevant or terrible way of looking at things but simply the way things are in this game.
ANET has alerady said that people should STOP FOCUSING ON THE NUMBERS. they are readily fixed. i mean would people be complaining if the fire overload suddenly did 5x the dmg with 5x the burn applications… no they wouldnt. \
yes ele is already good at creating might stacks. and sharing some buffs via arcane line. But tempest now offers an aura sharing via shouts which is lost previously. It offers a COMPLELTLy new playstyle of incentivizing not swapping attunments (which i enjoy). yes the overloards should be more impactful then they currently are but it also opens up new build archtypes.
a basic example is conjour wepons. say for pve when u use ur icebow or FGS, you can now swap to an attunemnt, use ur skills then ur conjoured wepon, and when ur done u can now use ur overload.
and in pvp this is supposed to be a zonning mechanic. previously they mainly just had rings/walls of fire which are not true denial. But now they can use overloads (with a bit of tuning) to make it so you really dont want to enter an area the same way you dont want to walk onto a node with necro wells on it.
I enjoyed the tempest and loved the new tricks you can do with it.
Numbers are the most important aspect to everything. They show where things need a boost or why things aren’t effective. For example nothing in the Tempest addresses our natural lack of HP and Armor. When you try to put together a front line build of gear for the Tempest it comes up woefully short on damage or defense. That’s a numbers thing that leads to how the class feels during game play because in order to hit the numbers you need in one area you are giving up numbers in another area, something other front line classes currently don’t have to do.
If the sum of your argument is that “Tempests can share Auras” then simply put the net benefit of Auras is woefully lacking compared to the alternative. Kicking out Frost Aura or Magnetic Aura to 5 people is irrelevant compared to what I could be doing on a normal Elementalist spec today.
The Overload idea is simply bad design. It’s bad design because staying in one attunement is not feasible outside of simplistic PvE encounters where you can camp Fire the entire time. In any kind of high pressure scenario we’re forced out of our attunements. Much of our weapon and class design is based on the fact that we have access to multiple attunements (aka: weapons) and thus aren’t as powerful as other classes nor on similar low cool downs as other classes (very few classes have cool downs upwards of 30 seconds on their 4 and 5 abilities for example). Had they designed the horn with us sitting in one attunement in mind and given us access to more defense in Fire/Air and more Offense in Water/Earth this would make sense but they didn’t. We got the same standard abilities in each line with long cool downs that when we get pressured we’ll be forced to swap. This swapping undermines the Overload mechanic as the rewards of staying aren’t worth the risks of staying (we lose access to the other tools we have to survive).
Also, we already had a zoning mechanic and it’s called the many DPS and AOE fields of Staff. I mean I get you guys want this to be something good, I want it to be good too, but it’s just not.
Kodiak X – Blackgate
Every game mode has limited slots and every class and potential person is competing for those slots. So no, it’s really irrelevant or terrible way of looking at things but simply the way things are in this game.
I mean I get you guys want this to be something good, I want it to be good too, but it’s just not.
I think you missed the point of my post. I am not arguing the tempest is ‘good’, I’m saying its different, which is good. New playstyles open up variety to the game and options to the players to take something they like and feels good to them and be able to play that.
By your arguments on limited spots in parties we should just remove rangers from the game entirely because they aren’t top tier and therefore should not exist. And maybe disable necromancers too while we’re at it.
This would not be beneficial to the vast majority of players, only beneficial to min/maxers who don’t want to play with those people.
Many people (including myself) prefer the idea of how large attacks that have a detrimental consequence to them. I KNOW tempest is currently weak, but I like it for the PLAYSTYLE. This is healthy to the game. It introduces a new way to play and again, with tweaking may well be very strong. I’ll point out again that tempest is a work in progress and may well be completely OP on HoT release.
(edited by KreatE.7612)
A common complaint is that people think it doens’t fit any role that ele doens’t already have. My response:
1) Ele are already top tier in all game modes for a reason
2) The specializations aren’t designed to be superior to previous builds (that would just be unnecessary power creeping)
3) Specializations ARE desgined to promote new play-styles, which tempest DOES in a very cool way (or will moreso with small tuning)
1. That isn’t a reason to botch up a new elite spec.
2. Sure but one has to wonder why it is called an “elite” specialisation when picking it makes an elementalist weaker.
3. I find your arguments about new styles pretty weak unless by new play styles you meant getting interrupted (either by enemy or yourself because a strong attack was coming). Though, the preview version of Wildfire had boon removal component. Alas, it was deemed too strong since tempest is already a top tier elite spec.
I think you missed the point of my post. I am not arguing the tempest is ‘good’, I’m saying its different, which is good. New playstyles open up variety to the game and options to the players to take something they like and feels good to them and be able to play that.
By your arguments on limited spots in parties we should just remove rangers from the game entirely because they aren’t top tier and therefore should not exist. And maybe disable necromancers too while we’re at it.
This would not be beneficial to the vast majority of players, only beneficial to min/maxers who don’t want to play with those people.
Many people (including myself) prefer the idea of how large attacks that have a detrimental consequence to them. I KNOW tempest is currently weak, but I like it for the PLAYSTYLE. This is healthy to the game. It introduces a new way to play and again, with tweaking may well be very strong. I’ll point out again that tempest is a work in progress and may well be completely OP on HoT release.
Except, it doesn’t, because everything the Tempest can do the base class can do better with the one exception of Aura Sharing (because of the shouts). Doing the exact same thing in a slightly different way is not a new result. It’s the same result, done slightly differently. They quite literally say
Do the elite specializations feel like they are creating an entirely new role for your main profession?
And in this case, simply put: No.
You can feel free to visit the Ranger forum to see their current list of complaints on the very topic you raise that they feel they have no place in the current game. They aren’t wanted in high end speed run dungeons. They aren’t wanted in SPvP high end teams. They aren’t wanted in high end WvW groups.
It’s great to hear you having a good time with the Tempest game play. I’m genuinely happy someone is enjoying it. However just because you are enjoying it, doesn’t mean it’s good or creating a new role for the Elementalist. It’s more of the same existing role we already have for all the reasons already covered countless times over.
Kodiak X – Blackgate
New yes, but underperforming, no mechanic synergy, and not optimized: Unefficient (too much ressources allocated for too little results). Why would we do worse when we can already do better?
Lily Bertine [NG]/[GiRL]
Nerfentalist of Augury Rock
Nerfentalist of Augury Rock
(edited by MyPuppy.8970)
Not swapping attunement is just lame, sorry. It’s not a new mechanic, it’s a lack of mechanic. It goes against how the class is played instead of adding upon it (unlike the other classes elite professions)
Well that’s just your opinion, man.
When the game came out, I likened to ele because how I played it was using the attunements as options to swap into if I need them. Emphasis on need. And while I did enjoy stance dancing on dagger/dagger when that became the solid strategy for that build, it became more and more standard for all builds to need to stance dance as power creep set in.
Making a spec that takes the need away from stance dancing and puts swapping back into the optional category isn’t a lack of a mechanic, especially if said spec doesn’t take that of stance dancing away.
That all being said, I think many of you seem highly to critical of someone’s opinion. If he says it’s a new playstyle for him then who are you to tell him he’s wrong? But then I suppose that just might be my perspective since I’m of the opinion that Tempest has the potential to provide a new style to Elementalist that isn’t the current norm BUT also doesn’t take away that current norm. People mentioned that the other elite specs (Dragonhunter, Reaper and Chronomancer) are specs that fit right into their current base profession…I don’t agree but then even if those people are right, it’s not as if Tempest being a spec that isn’t about stance dancing somehow is taking stance dancing away while you play it.
Not swapping attunement is just lame, sorry. It’s not a new mechanic, it’s a lack of mechanic. It goes against how the class is played instead of adding upon it (unlike the other classes elite professions)
Well that’s just your opinion, man.
When the game came out, I likened to ele because how I played it was using the attunements as options to swap into if I need them. Emphasis on need. And while I did enjoy stance dancing on dagger/dagger when that became the solid strategy for that build, it became more and more standard for all builds to need to stance dance as power creep set in.
Making a spec that takes the need away from stance dancing and puts swapping back into the optional category isn’t a lack of a mechanic, especially if said spec doesn’t take that of stance dancing away.
That all being said, I think many of you seem highly to critical of someone’s opinion. If he says it’s a new playstyle for him then who are you to tell him he’s wrong? But then I suppose that just might be my perspective since I’m of the opinion that Tempest has the potential to provide a new style to Elementalist that isn’t the current norm BUT also doesn’t take away that current norm. People mentioned that the other elite specs (Dragonhunter, Reaper and Chronomancer) are specs that fit right into their current base profession…I don’t agree but then even if those people are right, it’s not as if Tempest being a spec that isn’t about stance dancing somehow is taking stance dancing away while you play it.
The current Tempest is NOT a new playstyle. This isn’t an opinion. I can already camp Fire forever; it’s not a new playstyle. It’s literally the same thing we can already do, but far worse. If you wanted an Attunement-specialized Elementalist, we would need an overhaul and then it could be a new playstyle where we could have Fire, Water, Earth, Air Tempests or attunement-dancing Eles, where the specialized ones can do things the others could never accomplish and the attunement-dancer could have a little of everything.
Right now, though? We have Elementalists and Not-As-Good Tempests.
When “fixed”? We’re going to have the same Elementalists that have the option to Overload and then immediately swap.
Can’t use your “opinion” as a defense against criticism.
Not swapping attunement is just lame, sorry. It’s not a new mechanic, it’s a lack of mechanic. It goes against how the class is played instead of adding upon it (unlike the other classes elite professions)
Well that’s just your opinion, man.
When the game came out, I likened to ele because how I played it was using the attunements as options to swap into if I need them. Emphasis on need. And while I did enjoy stance dancing on dagger/dagger when that became the solid strategy for that build, it became more and more standard for all builds to need to stance dance as power creep set in.
Making a spec that takes the need away from stance dancing and puts swapping back into the optional category isn’t a lack of a mechanic, especially if said spec doesn’t take that of stance dancing away.
That all being said, I think many of you seem highly to critical of someone’s opinion. If he says it’s a new playstyle for him then who are you to tell him he’s wrong? But then I suppose that just might be my perspective since I’m of the opinion that Tempest has the potential to provide a new style to Elementalist that isn’t the current norm BUT also doesn’t take away that current norm. People mentioned that the other elite specs (Dragonhunter, Reaper and Chronomancer) are specs that fit right into their current base profession…I don’t agree but then even if those people are right, it’s not as if Tempest being a spec that isn’t about stance dancing somehow is taking stance dancing away while you play it.
The current Tempest is NOT a new playstyle. This isn’t an opinion. I can already camp Fire forever; it’s not a new playstyle. It’s literally the same thing we can already do, but far worse. If you wanted an Attunement-specialized Elementalist, we would need an overhaul and then it could be a new playstyle where we could have Fire, Water, Earth, Air Tempests or attunement-dancing Eles, where the specialized ones can do things the others could never accomplish and the attunement-dancer could have a little of everything.
Right now, though? We have Elementalists and Not-As-Good Tempests.
When “fixed”? We’re going to have the same Elementalists that have the option to Overload and then immediately swap.Can’t use your “opinion” as a defense against criticism.
And current Tempest has the potential to be a new playstyle. Shouting at me that it’s not doesn’t somehow make your opinion have greater impact.
The point being is, if you can currently camp fire all day, Tempest just gives you other options to use while you do so. That’s the point. Attempting to shout down people by stating your opinions as facts to criticize another opinion is beyond faulty.
Not swapping attunement is just lame, sorry. It’s not a new mechanic, it’s a lack of mechanic. It goes against how the class is played instead of adding upon it (unlike the other classes elite professions)
Well that’s just your opinion, man.
When the game came out, I likened to ele because how I played it was using the attunements as options to swap into if I need them. Emphasis on need. And while I did enjoy stance dancing on dagger/dagger when that became the solid strategy for that build, it became more and more standard for all builds to need to stance dance as power creep set in.
Making a spec that takes the need away from stance dancing and puts swapping back into the optional category isn’t a lack of a mechanic, especially if said spec doesn’t take that of stance dancing away.
That all being said, I think many of you seem highly to critical of someone’s opinion. If he says it’s a new playstyle for him then who are you to tell him he’s wrong? But then I suppose that just might be my perspective since I’m of the opinion that Tempest has the potential to provide a new style to Elementalist that isn’t the current norm BUT also doesn’t take away that current norm. People mentioned that the other elite specs (Dragonhunter, Reaper and Chronomancer) are specs that fit right into their current base profession…I don’t agree but then even if those people are right, it’s not as if Tempest being a spec that isn’t about stance dancing somehow is taking stance dancing away while you play it.
The current Tempest is NOT a new playstyle. This isn’t an opinion. I can already camp Fire forever; it’s not a new playstyle. It’s literally the same thing we can already do, but far worse. If you wanted an Attunement-specialized Elementalist, we would need an overhaul and then it could be a new playstyle where we could have Fire, Water, Earth, Air Tempests or attunement-dancing Eles, where the specialized ones can do things the others could never accomplish and the attunement-dancer could have a little of everything.
Right now, though? We have Elementalists and Not-As-Good Tempests.
When “fixed”? We’re going to have the same Elementalists that have the option to Overload and then immediately swap.Can’t use your “opinion” as a defense against criticism.
And current Tempest has the potential to be a new playstyle. Shouting at me that it’s not doesn’t somehow make your opinion have greater impact.
The point being is, if you can currently camp fire all day, Tempest just gives you other options to use while you do so. That’s the point. Attempting to shout down people by stating your opinions as facts to criticize another opinion is beyond faulty.
Ironic that you say I’m spouting opinions as fact. An Elementalist camping Fire isn’t a new playstyle. People already hate doing it in PvE. Giving it more options isn’t a new playstyle, but rather….just more options. You’re not really playing differently.
Also, you flat out pointed out that the Tempest is not a new playstyle as you kindly expressed: "And current Tempest has the potential to be a new playstyle. "
So, you’re confirming that it’s nothing new? It might have potential(that’s really debatable, since the current idea just doesn’t work at all), but that’s irrelevant because the current iteration doesn’t promote a new playstyle and there’s not much that could work here with just number changes; it would need a complete overhaul.
Finally, I’m not “shouting”. Just seems like you’re trying really hard to defend something that is blatantly bad.
But the concept of being able to overload gives in the moment decision making of do I need the extra dmg / healing vs will it hurt me in the long run is dramatically different than any current ele playstyles. Most if not all current ele play-styles are based around the complete opposite mentality utilizing very STABLE and CONSISTENT healling/damage/dmg reduction builds i.e. d/d cele and staff ele. This difference is what makes it so awesome! To me personally, that decision making of risk vs reward is far more interesting than the repetitiveness you find in current builds.
Actually there is no in the moment decision making. If your group needs a cleanse of conditions, you have 5 seconds after swapping into water to determine if you still need to do it. Or if you traited water (which 99.999% of tempests will do), then you won’t even need to use the overload at all.
Tempest complemented my all cleric/healer build along with shouts I found; more on demand burst and heals. The former helps me get tags for loots/events and the later increased my healing out put.
Only concerns are no stability on over loads, long cds locking attunement swaps on overloads, some shouts being pretty weak yet have long cds, and the elite which I probably will never use.
I wish some shouts had finishers attached to them and I also wish that we could get a nice, usuable elite that also has a blast finisher attached to it. I have been running arcane wave for years now since that is the only good blast finisher available to me and it would be nice to have an alternative choice…
Also wish a revamp of tagging systems for rewards when it comes to doing helpful things like healing, ressing, boon/aura sharing, etc; this particular issue has been annoying me for years.
Essentially first hits and or DPS is crucial to get credit which means if I am not running a meta build…it can be real frustrating. This has effected the player base as whole: dps first, support/help other players dead last all due to fact that playing non-meta builds is punished rather than rewarded. ie you have to go all out dps just to get the goodies so often times people won’t even res others b/c of this. That really isn’t promoting ‘team play’ very well I must say. :S
Also…a buff to +heal would be nice…and before you start getting upset about this…I am merely suggesting if you run 1k plus healing power it’s a little more powerful like say…in power or even allowing crits. Maybe at 1500 heals you have 5% to crit on heal effects; I don’t think this would break the game all that much plus with that amount of heals needed to get crit heals….dps orientated players should not be able to abuse it. If needed put a cap on it as well…say 5-10%ish. Maybe? Hum.
W/e I like tempest a lot and want it in game now lol; it’s hard to play my ele now all due to not having it as a choice since it slightly improved my performance in many areas. I hope there is buffs and or good adjustments in the future regardless.
(edited by fixit.7189)
And current Tempest has the potential to be a new playstyle. Shouting at me that it’s not doesn’t somehow make your opinion have greater impact.
The point being is, if you can currently camp fire all day, Tempest just gives you other options to use while you do so. That’s the point. Attempting to shout down people by stating your opinions as facts to criticize another opinion is beyond faulty.
Potential to be a new play style is not a new play style.
More over, what potential new play style? People have latched onto the Overload mechanic as a sign it promotes camping a single attunement for long periods of time. However there are a number of flaws with this line of reasoning:
1. Nothing about the Tempest addresses the fact our skills are balanced around having access to 4 attunement sets (IE: longer cool downs, reduced effects compared to other classes).
2. Nothing about the Tempest addresses that certain reaction skills are in certain lines, and in fact reinforces it. For example you’ll never camp Water for DPS. You’ll never camp Air for support.
3. Nothing about the Tempest addresses our innate lack of survivability (low armor and HP) and forces us to continue to seek the normal lines/ways we use to mitigate it (boons, healing, etc).
There are many facts about the scenario that show why Tempest is not a new way to play the class, despite the people shouting so at the top of their lungs with blind optimism that if they somehow tweak the numbers everything would be okay. The only way this would be true is if they made the numbers so ridiculously OP you had to use it which they are incredibly unlikely to do. The issues with the Tempest go deep beyond the numbers and in practical game play it simply delivers the same net result of what we already do only in a worse way.
More importantly, whether not this creates a new way to play the class is irrelevant. What the devs specifically said was does this create a new role for the class, and the answer continues to be based on all factual evidence: No.
Kodiak X – Blackgate
Not swapping attunement is just lame, sorry. It’s not a new mechanic, it’s a lack of mechanic. It goes against how the class is played instead of adding upon it (unlike the other classes elite professions)
Well that’s just your opinion, man.
When the game came out, I likened to ele because how I played it was using the attunements as options to swap into if I need them. Emphasis on need. And while I did enjoy stance dancing on dagger/dagger when that became the solid strategy for that build, it became more and more standard for all builds to need to stance dance as power creep set in.
Making a spec that takes the need away from stance dancing and puts swapping back into the optional category isn’t a lack of a mechanic, especially if said spec doesn’t take that of stance dancing away.
That all being said, I think many of you seem highly to critical of someone’s opinion. If he says it’s a new playstyle for him then who are you to tell him he’s wrong? But then I suppose that just might be my perspective since I’m of the opinion that Tempest has the potential to provide a new style to Elementalist that isn’t the current norm BUT also doesn’t take away that current norm. People mentioned that the other elite specs (Dragonhunter, Reaper and Chronomancer) are specs that fit right into their current base profession…I don’t agree but then even if those people are right, it’s not as if Tempest being a spec that isn’t about stance dancing somehow is taking stance dancing away while you play it.
The current Tempest is NOT a new playstyle. This isn’t an opinion. I can already camp Fire forever; it’s not a new playstyle. It’s literally the same thing we can already do, but far worse. If you wanted an Attunement-specialized Elementalist, we would need an overhaul and then it could be a new playstyle where we could have Fire, Water, Earth, Air Tempests or attunement-dancing Eles, where the specialized ones can do things the others could never accomplish and the attunement-dancer could have a little of everything.
Right now, though? We have Elementalists and Not-As-Good Tempests.
When “fixed”? We’re going to have the same Elementalists that have the option to Overload and then immediately swap.Can’t use your “opinion” as a defense against criticism.
And current Tempest has the potential to be a new playstyle. Shouting at me that it’s not doesn’t somehow make your opinion have greater impact.
The point being is, if you can currently camp fire all day, Tempest just gives you other options to use while you do so. That’s the point. Attempting to shout down people by stating your opinions as facts to criticize another opinion is beyond faulty.
Ironic that you say I’m spouting opinions as fact. An Elementalist camping Fire isn’t a new playstyle. People already hate doing it in PvE. Giving it more options isn’t a new playstyle, but rather….just more options. You’re not really playing differently.
Also, you flat out pointed out that the Tempest is not a new playstyle as you kindly expressed: "And current Tempest has the potential to be a new playstyle. "
So, you’re confirming that it’s nothing new? It might have potential(that’s really debatable, since the current idea just doesn’t work at all), but that’s irrelevant because the current iteration doesn’t promote a new playstyle and there’s not much that could work here with just number changes; it would need a complete overhaul.Finally, I’m not “shouting”. Just seems like you’re trying really hard to defend something that is blatantly bad.
Why the kitten would I be confirming anything? We’re talking about opinions here and we’ve only beta tested the specs. Until Anet confirms something or at least puts a date on changes, I can’t very well confirm it for them.
That all said, it’s obvious you don’t like Tempest. That’s alright. Some people do, some people like the idea of it, some people want to like it but think it needs more tuning, some dislike it unless it gets changes and others just plain dislike it outright. Whatever, it’s your opinion, man (would have sworn I said that already). I like the idea of the mechanics and think it could shine if some changes are made. And it did allow me to play my ele in a way I don’t normally play it (at least without feeling like I have few options while doing so). Point being, if you don’t think Tempest can work at all, why are you posting in this thread?
There are many facts about the scenario that show why Tempest is not a new way to play the class, despite the people shouting so at the top of their lungs with blind optimism that if they somehow tweak the numbers everything would be okay.
There is a difference between blind optimism, optimism and pessimism. The thing is, I’m hoping changes are made to the spec, but specifically not ones that shoehorn it into current Ele specs. I see most complaints about how its mechanics work are complaints about how you cannot utilize it in your ordinary rotations and not about how it can support new rotations. And the counter, of course, to that line of thought will always be “numbers would have to be OP” to which I can only roll my eyes and let you carry on with your speculation.
I’ll be here when you actually want to discuss suggestions and ideas.
Why the kitten would I be confirming anything? We’re talking about opinions here and we’ve only beta tested the specs. Until Anet confirms something or at least puts a date on changes, I can’t very well confirm it for them.
That all said, it’s obvious you don’t like Tempest. That’s alright. Some people do, some people like the idea of it, some people want to like it but think it needs more tuning, some dislike it unless it gets changes and others just plain dislike it outright. Whatever, it’s your opinion, man (would have sworn I said that already). I like the idea of the mechanics and think it could shine if some changes are made. And it did allow me to play my ele in a way I don’t normally play it (at least without feeling like I have few options while doing so). Point being, if you don’t think Tempest can work at all, why are you posting in this thread?
Because you flat-out said the Tempest isn’t currently providing a new playstyle? It’s not about opinions. There’s no opinions here. The Tempest does exactly the same thing, but worse. It doesn’t give you any incentive to camp(actually, after you Overload, you don’t really have many choices except to switch), doesn’t actually provide much support, doesn’t provide any damage to cover what you’re missing out on, doesn’t have any worthwhile utility the Ele doesn’t already have, doesn’t have any new conditions or boons, and I guess it needs to be said: thanks to the current iteration of Shouts, we lost Signet-Aura builds(do you really expect them to take the garbage Tempest line to regain what they had in a weaker form?).
No offense, but the people who seem to actually like the Tempest and Overloads seem to be the ones who just like pretty new effects and don’t care about how effective it truly is and what it actually does. Number tweaking alone will NOT fix this new mechanic. It’ll either be underpowered or it’ll be so insanely strong that it’s just annihilating people up close. The Shouts aren’t horrendous, but their the reason our Signet-Aura builds are dead, so I can’t really like them as they are. The Warhorn is okay, but isn’t close to competing with Dagger or Focus. Again, tweaking just numbers wont fix anything; it needs major changes as nothing has any real synergy(Shouts undermine Powerful Auras, Warhorn isn’t really great for melee, Overloads don’t do anything, and the traits are a mess).
I’m posting here because the more we complain about the Tempest then maybe something will actually be done and the people who paid $50+ wont be stuck with a garbage elite spec.
There are many facts about the scenario that show why Tempest is not a new way to play the class, despite the people shouting so at the top of their lungs with blind optimism that if they somehow tweak the numbers everything would be okay.
There is a difference between blind optimism, optimism and pessimism. The thing is, I’m hoping changes are made to the spec, but specifically not ones that shoehorn it into current Ele specs. I see most complaints about how its mechanics work are complaints about how you cannot utilize it in your ordinary rotations and not about how it can support new rotations. And the counter, of course, to that line of thought will always be “numbers would have to be OP” to which I can only roll my eyes and let you carry on with your speculation.
I’ll be here when you actually want to discuss suggestions and ideas.
It’s not that you can’t fit it into our usual rotations, it’s that there’s no reason to CHANGE the rotation. Overloads are far worse in pretty much any scenario except camping Fire for PvE(wow, what a new playstyle/sarcasm) in melee range.
Want to sustain yourself? Swapping constantly will not only heal for more over time, but also apply AoE Regen, Prot, Swiftness, and Might AND will allow you to maintain more offensive pressure. How exactly do you plan to kill anything at all if you need to sit in Water/Earth for 5 seconds? You NEED to swap out immediately.
It’s not designed to kill anything? Then why not just take an Earth/Water/Arcana Staff Elementalist and not only Heal a ton and provide 1200 range CC, but also provide AoE boons to my team mates and also survive damage spikes with Stone Heart?
It’s designed to be a close-range bruiser? Why not just take the current Cele D/D Ele? Why neuter my damage with the Tempest line for basically no benefits?
There’s no new magic rotation that will suddenly make the Tempest’s Overloads usable. It goes against our weapon skill designs and our trait designs(notice how many of them benefit swapping).
(edited by Malchior.5732)
Because you flat-out said the Tempest isn’t currently providing a new playstyle? It’s not about opinions. There’s no opinions here. The Tempest does exactly the same thing, but worse. It doesn’t give you any incentive to camp(actually, after you Overload, you don’t really have many choices except to switch), doesn’t actually provide much support, doesn’t provide any damage to cover what you’re missing out on, doesn’t have any worthwhile utility the Ele doesn’t already have, doesn’t have any new conditions or boons, and I guess it needs to be said: thanks to the current iteration of Shouts, we lost Signet-Aura builds(do you really expect them to take the garbage Tempest line to regain what they had in a weaker form?).
No offense, but the people who seem to actually like the Tempest and Overloads seem to be the ones who just like pretty new effects and don’t care about how effective it truly is and what it actually does. Number tweaking alone will NOT fix this new mechanic. It’ll either be underpowered or it’ll be so insanely strong that it’s just annihilating people up close. The Shouts aren’t horrendous, but their the reason our Signet-Aura builds are dead, so I can’t really like them as they are. The Warhorn is okay, but isn’t close to competing with Dagger or Focus. Again, tweaking just numbers wont fix anything; it needs major changes as nothing has any real synergy(Shouts undermine Powerful Auras, Warhorn isn’t really great for melee, Overloads don’t do anything, and the traits are a mess).
I’m posting here because the more we complain about the Tempest then maybe something will actually be done and the people who paid $50+ wont be stuck with a garbage elite spec.
It’s not that you can’t fit it into our usual rotations, it’s that there’s no reason to CHANGE the rotation. Overloads are far worse in pretty much any scenario except camping Fire for PvE(wow, what a new playstyle/sarcasm) in melee range.
Want to sustain yourself? Swapping constantly will not only heal for more over time, but also apply AoE Regen, Prot, Swiftness, and Might AND will allow you to maintain more offensive pressure. How exactly do you plan to kill anything at all if you need to sit in Water/Earth for 5 seconds? You NEED to swap out immediately.
It’s not designed to kill anything? Then why not just take an Earth/Water/Arcana Staff Elementalist and not only Heal a ton and provide 1200 range CC, but also provide AoE boons to my team mates and also survive damage spikes with Stone Heart?
It’s designed to be a close-range bruiser? Why not just take the current Cele D/D Ele? Why neuter my damage with the Tempest line for basically no benefits?
There’s no new magic rotation that will suddenly make the Tempest’s Overloads usable. It goes against our weapon skill designs and our trait designs(notice how many of them benefit swapping).
Hmmm, me thinks you need to calm down. You’re putting far too much emotion into what amounts to “Stop enjoying what I don’t!” I mean, it’s not even that I disagree with points you make. The only thing that I’d even argue is the whole “Tempest doesn’t provide anyone with anything!” when it’s already been said that players are playing their elementalist differently when playing the tempest spec. But apparently that’s all just blind optimism and being an idiot player that only likes pretty graphics?
I think you need to edit your posts before you go off saying things you don’t mean. And if you really are just being mean-spirited and trying to talk down to me, it’s not working. Not when you draw lines in the sand to try and separate folks into the “serious gamer” and “simpleton casual”.
Again, come back and talk to me when you actually want to discuss something rather than preach to me.
So much text ….
I will try tempest. With the current numbers it makes no real sense to use it but i still have hope.
And being forced to swap elements in evry build, to play top tier is a bad thing ;-).
Its good that the ele can be played in that way. Let it be fresh air and D/D but it must not be forced. Tempes adds some new builds, especially it adds support. It lacks damage but the only damage add that won´t make ele more OP is non burning condi damage. I would love to see a good condi trait instead of latent stamia.
I like the shouts with aura share most. Its hard to exchange current utilities but beside the a bit to long cooldowns they are nice. In the end i would trade survivability for shouts. I think its viable because the shouts do considerable damage/control.
Tempest has the potential to be a new playstyle.
You said it yourself
Camping attunement (even tho i personnaly don’t like it) is a mechanic
But tempest isn’t AT ALL about attunement camping.
Do you get bonuses for camping your attunement ? NO
Do you get bonuses allowing you to camp your attunement ? NO
A lot of suggestion have been made to allow this
I’ll throw my random 2c just to show example
Lets imagine camping an attunement for X second grant you + X% up to 5sec
Fire: 10%increased power and condi per sec
Water: 2% max hp regen (aoe ? since water is kinda support oriented) per sec
Air: 10% crit chance per sec
Earth: 10% damage reduction (both power and condi) per sec
This allow you to camp your attunement
When overloading, consume this “passiv” buff and get
Fire: next ability deals double damage (OS fire grab BUT telegraphed cause you overloaded)
Water: full heal (AOE)+ convert every condi into boon (self)
Air: 100% crit for 3sec
Earth: root ennemy for like 3sec, grant prot, stability and condi immun for 5sec
THIS make you a monster when camping one attunement and open choice of overloading or not, cause you get some REAL buff
PS: example highly subject to number tweak, i purposedly went ham and obviously dont ask for this kind of buff XD
But it’s someway viable and it took me only 2min to come up with a VIABLE camping attunement mechanic …. we can’t say K. managed this performance
.
EDIT:
I would add:
Tempest PROMOTES attunement camping, which is a nex playstyle (that we like it or not has nothing to do)
BUT do NOT ALLOWS you to camp attunement
Tempest seems made careful not to make ele better in any way, since that would be bad
…
It does the job well :-)
…
It does the job well :-)
(edited by Mattmatt.4962)
Hmmm, me thinks you need to calm down. You’re putting far too much emotion into what amounts to “Stop enjoying what I don’t!” I mean, it’s not even that I disagree with points you make. The only thing that I’d even argue is the whole “Tempest doesn’t provide anyone with anything!” when it’s already been said that players are playing their elementalist differently when playing the tempest spec. But apparently that’s all just blind optimism and being an idiot player that only likes pretty graphics?
I think you need to edit your posts before you go off saying things you don’t mean. And if you really are just being mean-spirited and trying to talk down to me, it’s not working. Not when you draw lines in the sand to try and separate folks into the “serious gamer” and “simpleton casual”.
Again, come back and talk to me when you actually want to discuss something rather than preach to me.
You’re getting “offended” far too easily, thus your argument devolved into you defending yourself from a threat that wasn’t there.
Come again when you have a counter-argument.
There’s nothing proving these players are actually playing differently and not just looking at the graphics(fact is that many players only care for looking cool and not effectiveness; that’s why pugs in dungeons don’t have ideal builds many times). You called them an idiot, not me. If you recall, I never said there was anything wrong with them, but rather that their input doesn’t reflect the truth behind the tempest.
(edited by Malchior.5732)
I agree with OP, however the overload effects should be more potent and threatening to get the good risk/reward ratio.
From a PvE point of view, it only adds protection against projectile reflection IF AND ONLY IF the Overload Fire does more damage than the auto-attack and damage modifiers were added to the spec. However, the Overload mechanic works completely against the Dagger rotation and Warhorn does not outshine Focus in group content. So, the only viable option in PvE for tempest is paired with Staff. However, based on the current meta, the only thing different it does is make you susceptible to interrupts and lose your attunement swap.
The reason Staff DPS dominates PvE is because bosses do not move, do not usually reflect/destroy projectiles, and have more health than armor. (even if the last one were to change, Ele has no real reliable method of condition application). Hell, even dagger/focus only gives you ways around the second part of the staff. You still need bosses to stay in fire fields.
Shouts would not be used in PvE as they offer nothing to the meta that we don’t already do. The overload mechanic relies on you remaining immobile as well as the bosses so the channel is not interrupted and the entire amount of damage is applied. Why would I risk my attunement when I can do the same damage with less risks and have better healing and condi cleanse options with swapping to water attunement and using 3 and 5 vs overload water?
Magichemist Zeke – Asura Elementalist [TC]
An Insane(ly Intelligent) Genius!
“Did you just tell me the rules? Never tell me the rules!”
An Insane(ly Intelligent) Genius!
“Did you just tell me the rules? Never tell me the rules!”
There is a difference between blind optimism, optimism and pessimism. The thing is, I’m hoping changes are made to the spec, but specifically not ones that shoehorn it into current Ele specs.I see most complaints about how its mechanics work are complaints about how you cannot utilize it in your ordinary rotations and not about how it can support new rotations. And the counter, of course, to that line of thought will always be “numbers would have to be OP” to which I can only roll my eyes and let you carry on with your speculation.
This is a fundamental misunderstanding on your part then as the general impression I’ve seen repeatedly is that the Tempest doesn’t offer anything different than what we can already do. Very few people are complaining you can’t utilize the Tempest in the current rotations, but rather that the current rotations are simply superior or at worst on par with what the Tempest can achieve.
At the end of the day all that matters is answering the Developer’s question: Does it create a new role. The answer continues to be: No. All it does is provide an alternative route to the same end result we already have. What it should be is providing a new set of tools as well as using a mix of our existing tools to produce a new end result.
You can roll your eyes and act aloof all you want but at the end of the day the burden of proof is on the people claiming Tempest provides that new role. I’ve yet to read a single compelling case where someone shows the new role it provides that we can’t currently do. Instead we get these posts about how it’s “a new way to play” which completely misses the mark of what the Developers asked of us on in the BWE1 message.
Kodiak X – Blackgate
So, after reading most of the comments posted here, I thought to myself – you should also write sth. Since this thread will either be merged into oblivion or it will be closed since it lost its objectivity and has become a little too emotional.
Okay, first of. I thought your text was hilarious to read – I thought you did a really good sarcastic way of explaining why the tempest, as it is know – doesn’t work. That was before I realized you actually meant that it would promote an “awesome new play style”
As already stated here, it won’t create a new role. I think that one of the biggest misunderstandings here is that just because something new was introduced, this introduction will magically create a new tier in which the tempest will find a place. That is not the case.
E.g. just because new weapon skins are introduced you’re not going to buy them all, are you?
Same with the tempest. Yes it is sth new – but not like good new, useful new. It’s just sth new, which won’t be used, since it is inferior to all current weapons and traits available to the elementalist. Thus creating NO new role.
Also staying in one attunement for a period of time, is nothing new. It has already been around and still is. For instance PvE. Though that’s not entirely true since playing staff has a rotation aswell.
The tempest, as it is know is nothing new. I can pretty much accomplish the same by better traits / weapons which will have a lower risk for me and a higher reward.
I personally support everything which makes sense and would contribute sth new to the game. That certainly is not the case with tempest.
The problem with the game at the moment is that everything dies way to fast. Being able to crit almost anything doesn’t help it either. So playing with high power levels is somewhat intended by the devs.
So pushing the elementalist into a role of a supporter won’t do any good since, as you already said – his damage is top tier. Why should he sacrifice his current role as a damage dealer for giving mediocre support to his party members?
If either the skills given by the tempest were indeed support worthy or giving him access to unique ways of playing the elementalist differently – I am all for it.
The skills given to the elementalist don’t make any sense. Either make it somewhat a support class, so no big numbers but – at the end of the zerg / dungeon / match, you will say – good he played tempest. But it’s something in between as it was presented. It doesn’t want to go full support nor full damage. It is something in-between, inferior to current builds.
You can’t create a new “class” or specialization, call it what you want by adding one additional traitline.
The elementalist has 4 different attunements he can change in and out, in theory. You can’t create a class with such high versatility by adding one extra line when it has been nerfed / buffed for almost 3 years to create a balanced class, yes – the elementalist is balanced.
The problem here is that it won’t work by just adding one skill tier which doesn’t work with the other trait lines well. That’s the synergy behind the elementalist and why a lot of work was put into it pre launch since know. This synergy created up to this point was solemnly destroyed by the tempest.
Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto
ANET has alerady said that people should STOP FOCUSING ON THE NUMBERS. they are readily fixed.
Ride the Lightning still has a 40 second CD.
Churning Earth is a 3.25 sec cast time spell that almost never gets used because its so easy to interrupt, even by NPCs.
Do I even need to mention Focus’ Fire Shield? Or Gale being on a 50 second CD for a 2s KD???
If they’re so readily fixed, why haven’t these and more been fixed in the almost three years since game release?
What do you think happens to a building that you keep adding floors to, but has a crumbling foundation? ANet needs to spend resources on fixing the current game, and less on gemstore content. You definitely don’t want to have this kind of argument with Rangers and Necromancers, Pets and Minions are still, three years later, pathetic. And that’s just sad.
[EDIT] If ANet had been serious about creating a new role for Eles, they would have made the utility skills Wards. Having the Ele become a sort of mobile “King of the Hill” by being the center of the Ward might have introduced some new play options, as well as zone control.
But as it stands now, the Warhorn and Shouts just make the Ele into a sub-par Guardian. I mean, if EVERY Guardian decides to switch to Dragonhunter and NEVER use shouts again, then sure, the Tempest may have a role.
(edited by Kaleban.9834)
Imagine if fire overload had a 600 radius and did 15k dmg over 6 seconds in cele gear. but then kicked you out of fire for 30 seconds. To me, that sounds AWESOME and hopefully anet will push it more in that direction as HoT gets closer.
Do you realize that with D/D Ele, spamming Air #1 can get you an expected dps of 2500 per second (since you hit twice per second)?
That means you get the same 15k dps after 6s without locking you out of an attunement. If you use a staff, it’s even more dps if you use a Staff just purely by spamming Fire 1/2/3.
There is no good incentive to Overload except for showing off beautiful animation.
Not to mention burning damage(estimate around 1k per second) + Bleeds (throw in 400) plus Air1 at a consertive 2k = 3.5k/sec = 21k damage in 6 seconds. But targets are never that stupid to stand there and recieve the full brunt. Unless we are talking about pve. Not sure about pve. Maybe tempest was made for pve?
If Tempest was made for pve it would have had damage bonuses even in it’s earliest incarnation, but it didn’t, so I guess it wasn’t.
Last of the Red Hot Swamis
Imagine if fire overload had a 600 radius and did 15k dmg over 6 seconds in cele gear. but then kicked you out of fire for 30 seconds. To me, that sounds AWESOME and hopefully anet will push it more in that direction as HoT gets closer.
Do you realize that with D/D Ele, spamming Air #1 can get you an expected dps of 2500 per second (since you hit twice per second)?
That means you get the same 15k dps after 6s without locking you out of an attunement. If you use a staff, it’s even more dps if you use a Staff just purely by spamming Fire 1/2/3.
There is no good incentive to Overload except for showing off beautiful animation.
Not to mention burning damage(estimate around 1k per second) + Bleeds (throw in 400) plus Air1 at a consertive 2k = 3.5k/sec = 21k damage in 6 seconds. But targets are never that stupid to stand there and recieve the full brunt. Unless we are talking about pve. Not sure about pve. Maybe tempest was made for pve?
If Tempest was made for pve it would have had damage bonuses even in it’s earliest incarnation, but it didn’t, so I guess it wasn’t.
So the tempest isn’t made for PvE?
Okay…then wtf was it made for? Interrupts are plentiful in PvP and WvW so….no attunement? Maybe zerg WvW with the cleanse? Because frontline support is suicide.
Magichemist Zeke – Asura Elementalist [TC]
An Insane(ly Intelligent) Genius!
“Did you just tell me the rules? Never tell me the rules!”
An Insane(ly Intelligent) Genius!
“Did you just tell me the rules? Never tell me the rules!”
People seriously need to understand the difference between “Entirely new play style” (ANET’s own words btw) and “new skills”.
New skills means only that by pressing a button your character now activates a different ability that has a difference between another, e.g., it can have a different damage, range, utility, etc.
Does Tempest provide new skills? Obviously it does.
But an entirely new play style is going well beyond just giving new skills, it is giving tools to make you play your class in a substantially different way. E.g., a completely new role or niche for your class that it didn’t have before.
So what we have thus far?
Tempest is advertised by ANET as: “Effective close-range fighters who can support their allies on the front lines”. This is literally the same thing as the D/D cele ele build!
Does this means that you can’t enjoy it? Not at all, you certainly can enjoy it. But what it does mean is that ANET is offering us the exact same play style we have today!
Doing this is a HORRIBLE idea for two reasons.
First, because it is completely against their statement that the elite specializations are meant to give you a new play style.
Second, it is simply bad strategy. Why? Because if you offer the same thing that we have today, to have people use it you need to make it better in someway to make it compete and “best” the other one.
If we were talking of something that you need to buy, sure people could just pay “less” for the worst option and be content with it, but in this case you don’t have to spend a dime to change specializations so the majority of people will only pick the one that is the “best” of the two.
So either ANET will offer us a gimmick elite specialization that will see players running it on the first couple of days of the expansion and then discarding it completely to go back to D/D cele ele, or we will end up with a buffed version of D/D cele ele (which is something the whole forums doesn’t want).
What we want is a new play style, but the Tempest does not offer that at all.
The tempest is a beautifully designed class in a world full of bads.
Please not another hand holding brainless build anet, PLEASE!
BWE1 patchnotes→ flat buffs to attunements putting tempest closer to reaching the right risk/reward for overload.
Another patch like that and tempest will op and even the super negative minority that flood these forums will be saying “I knew tempest was the greatest addition from the beginning”.
Let’s just look into the future and agree everyone loves the tempest !
BWE1 patchnotes-> flat buffs to attunements putting tempest closer to reaching the right risk/reward for overload.
Another patch like that and tempest will op and even the super negative minority that flood these forums will be saying “I knew tempest was the greatest addition from the beginning”.
Let’s just look into the future and agree everyone loves the tempest !
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA….
Okay, no. The problem with buffing it to high heavens is that…ahem
We. Still. Have. The. Same. Problems. As. A. Class. That. We. Do. Now.
Nothing. Changes. And. Tempest. Would. Either. Be. Objectively. Better. Or. Remain. Objectively. Worse.
Bookah, I don’t know how to drill this into your head, but…it doesn’t promote a new playstyle. In PvE, it still suffers from the same problem staff has. Only being weak to interrupts and either locking you into or out of an attunement. And…no one in their right mind would use it with dagger or scepter. And if you do, I question the rightness of your mind.
So, no. I don’t want Tempest to be buffed so it’s a non-choice. I want tempest to be different. To offer me something new on my elementalist. If the reward is more damage for the risk of losing all damage, less damage would be preferable to that risk…
Magichemist Zeke – Asura Elementalist [TC]
An Insane(ly Intelligent) Genius!
“Did you just tell me the rules? Never tell me the rules!”
An Insane(ly Intelligent) Genius!
“Did you just tell me the rules? Never tell me the rules!”
BWE1 patchnotes-> flat buffs to attunements putting tempest closer to reaching the right risk/reward for overload.
Another patch like that and tempest will op and even the super negative minority that flood these forums will be saying “I knew tempest was the greatest addition from the beginning”.
Let’s just look into the future and agree everyone loves the tempest !
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA….
Okay, no. The problem with buffing it to high heavens is that…ahem
We. Still. Have. The. Same. Problems. As. A. Class. That. We. Do. Now.
Nothing. Changes. And. Tempest. Would. Either. Be. Objectively. Better. Or. Remain. Objectively. Worse.
Bookah, I don’t know how to drill this into your head, but…it doesn’t promote a new playstyle. In PvE, it still suffers from the same problem staff has. Only being weak to interrupts and either locking you into or out of an attunement. And…no one in their right mind would use it with dagger or scepter. And if you do, I question the rightness of your mind.
So, no. I don’t want Tempest to be buffed so it’s a non-choice. I want tempest to be different. To offer me something new on my elementalist. If the reward is more damage for the risk of losing all damage, less damage would be preferable to that risk…
I’m guessing 3 months. 3 months and tempest will be your favorite class and we’ll be best friends <3<3<3.
You’ll regret all these posts and you’ll want to buy cookies for arenanet. It may not look like it now, but you’ll get there. 3 months.
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