Guild Wars 2

What do you guys think, is the title too strong?

This is kinda okittenward , in the beginning the elite was very much viable in my eyes but that’s because the meta was mostly power so the self-sustain was enough against all classes and from time to time you could even spot some marauder tempest..but all this is gone.

Within a couple of months the meta switched its focus towards heavy condition output, the kind this game has never seen before, straight out these are the most “cancerous” builds you’ll encounter these days as solo player.

Trap Druid axe/dagger/torch

Mallyx viper revenant

Condi frost reaper

Elixir gun scrapper

These 4 builds alone are capable of unleashing true hell on a point, all of sudden all my tempest build that I was still theorycrafting …ended up being unplayable.

For a while I played arcana/water/tempest, till couple of weeks ago the meta wasn’t still this bad…then shield mesmer came along and with it a new version of frost reaper and a still unknown druid power build with condi

To make it short…only thing that keeps me going , that allow me to log in after a day of work..it’s Diamond skin, without it tempest is unplayable ; too much chill, poison, cripple, immobilize, druid dazing you for days, fear-fear, confusion stacks, slow….god

What are you guys feelings?

Well i met one yesterday with diamond skin and he won because of it. But i don´t use it and i also don´t use water or soldier runes and it works. Yes its hard against condi builds but playable. There are: Magnetic wave, cleansing flame and eather renewal which do a good job. I also use generosity sigil.

This is called a healthy meta where things shift all the time and no one build beats everything and you have to adapt. I am happy it shifted away from pure power, probably because a lot of people put on toughness gear, and when condi is powerful then toughness is not good so power gets better, and on and on and on. At least we hope this will be the case.
Hopefully the balance can settle to a place where:
Bunker beats power but loses to condi, (vit, toughness, cc)
Support beats condi but loses to power, (cleanse, heal, cc)
Power and condi both explode at equal pace and,
Bunker and support fight forever.

Well bunker usually has a lot of cleanse and often beats condi and is about 50/50 to power.
Currently we have condibunker beats power if power is not loaded with condi removal/defence. The condibunker often looses against the hybrid power/condi build which is to glassy to hold against zerker builds. A support bunker holds long but dies to most offensive builds in 1:1. This sounds not to bad, but the old zek “Meta” complains to be riped apart by the condi bunker´s :-).
Maybe a hybrid build going carrion stats would slip inbetween beating down both condi build types ;-).

Yeah when you start going into hybrid sets it gets less clear cut but the reason why I think support doesn’t have a place is because the rest are based on stats while support is based wholly on utilities so you can be a support bunker, dps or condi. As you say bunker usually has a lot of condi clense already.
That is what I hope gets changed a little:
1. Of course heal power scaling, which I think should recombined with benevolence to always give outgoing heals more weight than yourself. (At least double) eg. Hunters healing spring heals him for 4k+2*(heal power), heals others for 4k+4*(heal power)
2. Improve support of boon duration by allowing stack intensity boons like Regen, Vigor, Protection(10% up to 5)
3. And maybe a condi removal boon? If you over condi remove you gain a stacking intensity buff that instantly blocks the next condition that is applied.
Eg. Traited Virtue of resolve 1 second before fighting a burn guard then: JI, Permeating Wrath and Virtue burns blocked but then torch and whirling wrath still apply.
(This is less efficient that using VoR to remove after the engage because you are blocking 7 stacks of burn using 3 condi removes instead of removing full stack of burn and two other random condis)

Condi builds were useless for the bast year due to shoutbow dd ele and bunker guard. I’m glad they finally have their day in the sun at last.

Arcane/water builds will be fine if you take torrents and cleansing water. Or diamond skin and either focus or cleansing fire.

I think diamond skin could be reworked to be more useful below the threshold in teamfights and less overpowered above the threshold in 1v1s, but that’s just my view point on it.

Well hopefully the builds you listed will crop up into the meta again, time to dust off my Barbarian amulet Shout Guadian I think. :-)
For dimond skin a fun change would be linear scaling for example:
>90% health take 80% less condi duration,
>80% health take 60% less condi duration,
>70% health take 40% less condi duration,
>60% health take 20% less condi duration.

But in truth I like the threshold it makes it very swingy and tense for both the defending Ele and the attacking condi player (if they don’t instantly give up like most apparently do)

nearlight.3064:

Condi builds were useless for the bast year due to shoutbow dd ele and bunker guard. I’m glad they finally have their day in the sun at last.

Arcane/water builds will be fine if you take torrents and cleansing water. Or diamond skin and either focus or cleansing fire.

I think diamond skin could be reworked to be more useful below the threshold in teamfights and less overpowered above the threshold in 1v1s, but that’s just my view point on it.

Tempest/water*. Problem is that we will be pigeon holed into traitlines again. Also, i doubt we will be able to deal with reapers even with all that cleanse.

A rework would be nice but given anet’s history of reworking skills.. -shudder- i rather not.

The strange thing is that till now i can deal well with most reapers and i have only the followign condi removers:
Focus magnetic wave, cantrip cleansing flame, sigil of generosity and phönix.
Scepter/focus F/E/T (No diamond skin, i run stone heart and shouts).
No water, soldiers or eather renewal. Against the traper druid it is hazardous, but dragon hunters and reapers seem well managable.

Correct me if I am wrong but these reapers play Cele now?
Then wolfric your build probably hits the right balance of hybrid defence to counter his hybrid offence. You stop crits and clense enough condis while applying decent speed of condition output.
And ReaperJr pigeon holing into specific builds is happening to all classes and is not a bad thing when connected to survival. The problem is most have 3 trait line options for survival and can choose just 1 and stat the other, while Ele most of the time needs to choose 2 because of the low health pool, or YOLO! ;-)

Arutha.9874:

Correct me if I am wrong but these reapers play Cele now?
Then wolfric your build probably hits the right balance of hybrid defence to counter his hybrid offence. You stop crits and clense enough condis while applying decent speed of condition output.
And ReaperJr pigeon holing into specific builds is happening to all classes and is not a bad thing when connected to survival. The problem is most have 3 trait line options for survival and can choose just 1 and stat the other, while Ele most of the time needs to choose 2 because of the low health pool, or YOLO! ;-)

They play either cele or carrion depending on the matchup. Cele has better sustain against burst rev/dd/DH/chrono comps and can strip diamond skin more easily, but it still won’t have enough damage to kill more bunkery things like Druid and scrapper. Carrion does, but it’s squishier and can’t easily strip DS by itself. It doesn’t need to since the tempest will be pretty vulnerable to a condi bomb after that in a teamfight.

Wolfric.9380:

The strange thing is that till now i can deal well with most reapers and i have only the followign condi removers:
Focus magnetic wave, cantrip cleansing flame, sigil of generosity and phönix.
Scepter/focus F/E/T (No diamond skin, i run stone heart and shouts).
No water, soldiers or eather renewal. Against the traper druid it is hazardous, but dragon hunters and reapers seem well managable.

Probably the scepter making a difference. Reapers need to be at close range to truly shine. If you were dagger mainhand you would probably get chilled 24/7

Also just adding that invigorating torrents+cleansing wave+soldier runes is so much AoE cleanse that you won’t even need diamond skin at all to function, so you can take stone heart. In fact, this setup has even more condi immunity imo in more sitautions, but it doesn’t have the ability to readily share shocking aura, so its balanced by that.

nearlight.3064:

Also just adding that invigorating torrents+cleansing wave+soldier runes is so much AoE cleanse that you won’t even need diamond skin at all to function, so you can take stone heart. In fact, this setup has even more condi immunity imo in more sitautions, but it doesn’t have the ability to readily share shocking aura, so its balanced by that.

Pretty much that. And I am having some very good results with a Marauder Staff Tempest; that’s something. Air Water Tempest.

Though, the Chill Necro is truly annoying. And pretty much anyone using that build must be taken seriously…

Wolfric.9380:

Well i met one yesterday with diamond skin and he won because of it. But i don´t use it and i also don´t use water or soldier runes and it works. Yes its hard against condi builds but playable. There are: Magnetic wave, cleansing flame and eather renewal which do a good job. I also use generosity sigil.

Can’t imagine your build, you must be playing in a premade for sure, because alone your build would get focused down hard

Well i don´t play PvP much. Just tried a bit, but could compete with some obvious good players. I like full customization and such play as WvW roamer. I use a special condi tempest with giver weapons.
Its hard to translate to sPvP
This would be the sPvP version. I used rabid because did´t pay the 10g till now for wanderer, but its clearly the best amulet for me.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vFAQJArdn0XC9XiVYCOOA8RgFBAzN1+aztBBgCQRcIIsDSiA-TJRWABjWGAg9HQ5EAU4DAAA

Its more agressive and mitigation not regeneration.
I do small changes like air signet or shock/aftershock instead of cleansign flame or i might take power overhelming which is better if i fight only power builds.
Also rebound is quite fine in it. FSG´s CD is harsh but its very powerful in this build.
This also beats LB rangers and Guardians. Condi Traper druid is one of the deadliest enemies.

I run E/A/T marauder Auramancer with D/F….I usually take diamond skin because condi is so much harder to deal with close range especially with marauders gear because I’m squishier than a cele tempest. But DS+Soldiers runes gives just enough condi resistance and condi clear to melt reapers like no ones business. Reapers give me wayyyy more trouble on my chrono and rev though. I thinks its healthy for certain builds and classes to have good and bad matchups.

I used to think so too, but ppl just have to realize that Ele has another role now. Ele just isn’t the 1v1 roamer anymore, but a teamfight/tank and only secondarily used in 1v1’s, where the goal is to only win against non-1v1 builds and simply survive against others.

Unless they nerf at least reaper and rev (especially mallyx), ele is too weak in 1v1’s. I don’t think it’s impossible to win against engi without diamond skin and I actually prefer stoneheart for that MU, since he’ll have more than enough physical DMG to keep you below 90% to make the non-crit of stoneheart better when he tries to hammer you down after slick shoes or Hammer5.

I often prefer to go full defense with Ele’s – it’s very strong in teamfights (especially staff-ele) and for 1v1’s, you’ll be able to stay alive better. TBH, in many 1v1’s, the builds are so tanky, it’s useless to go for more offensive runes like strength or even hoelbrak, you won’t kill them anyways, so why not go durability? ^^’

I also feel that Ele offers enough strength in teamfights that the other builds don’t do, to justify the fact that he’s not godmode in 1v1’s anymore. I absolutely love playing Staff in teamfights and most of the time, I can at least hold a point against the stronger 1v1-builds and that is IMHO a fair deal for the Ele.

It’s just the best option for a number of reasons.

- The meta shift to more condi heavy builds
- The shift in elementalist’s role from less of a bunker and more of a team fight support.
- The loss of a lot of condi cleanse if you run a full shout setup, particularly if you take Powerful Auras.
- The fact that it is a cross attunement trait; immunity to critical hits is earth only and the cooldown increase from overloads makes getting back into earth harder than an arcane based attunement swap build.

It’s not the end all be all though. You can’t hold points or even survive very long in 1vs1 fights against power based builds designed specifcally to win fights, particularly power revenants with a lot of chill.

tried everything from fire/water/tempest to arcana./water/tempest, wanted to check the viability of tempest against condi, the focus of recent meta ( with mallyx shiro rev and trap druid arrival).

Eeven used sigil of purity and generosity together..

……the condi removal is simply not enough, you get spammed to death with condis from all directions.

Just faced a premade with condi berseker bow, condi reaper, mallyx shiro…the condi output is unreal, should have taken the screenshots or even a video, next time will do.

As it stands now, a tempest with diamond skin stands little to no chance in the current condi meta

This is why torrents+cleansing water+soldier runes+all shouts feels like the best build right now compared to pure aurashare that has trouble with heavy condi teams (unless you magically happen to fight a team with poor condi pressure).

But then you can forget about overloading on a point.

I almost wish they would just delete cleansing water and give us actual condi clear on our weapon skills and utilities (only cleansing fire and water sig.. really?)

Supreme.3164:

As it stands now, a tempest with diamond skin stands little to no chance in the current condi meta

And, yet, every pro game I have managed to catch on Twitch since HoT has had a tempest elementalist represented in every team

MadRabbit.3179:

Supreme.3164:

As it stands now, a tempest with diamond skin stands little to no chance in the current condi meta

And, yet, every pro game I have managed to catch on Twitch since HoT has had a tempest elementalist represented in every team

First I meant to say “with no diamond skin”

Second, ESL teams enjoy that level of synergy and coordination, which is completely absent at the other side of the pvp spectrum as such, a tempest without diamond skin would simply get slaughtered there at even at high level the spec would suffer.

The main problem is the fast re-applications of condis so not matter how much cleanse you bring , you simply get overwhelmed in no time once everything on CD.

The condis are coming from all direction and represent the 90% of the enemy damage, so no matter how many shouts you use….everything is vain.

Diamond skin..or fail

Supreme.3164:

MadRabbit.3179:

Supreme.3164:

As it stands now, a tempest with diamond skin stands little to no chance in the current condi meta

And, yet, every pro game I have managed to catch on Twitch since HoT has had a tempest elementalist represented in every team

First I meant to say “with no diamond skin”

That makes more sense. My comment wasn’t really relevant.

I personally find Stone Heart to be more useful than Diamond Skin.

Think about it. You’re running Celestial Tempest, which puts you at roughly 17k HP.

In order for Diamond Skin to become useless, you need to be brought to below around 15.5k HP, or 90%.

Yes, Diamond Skin is good in 1 vs 1 fights against Condi Classes, but if they put out any sort of flat damage, or get +1’d with someone that can deal flat damage, your 3rd tier Earth Talent choice just became null and void.

In my opinion, if you’re being focused down by Condi Classes, just work on your Condi Clear and timing. I recommend finding a good Necro, have him grab a Condi Build, and then duel him until you figure out how to beat him.

It’s taken me well over 500 hours in Duel Arena’s to figure out how that all works. I just prefer Stone Heart, but I will run Diamond Skin if I’m pushing far into any condi-based comp.

Edit:

This is coming from someone who plays in the Pro Leagues, and plays professionally. I have spent a lot of time theory crafting these things. Diamond Skin would be great when you’re playing into a team support roll, but it’s more situational than Stone Heart, which is universally good.

nearlight.3064:

Also just adding that invigorating torrents+cleansing wave+soldier runes is so much AoE cleanse that you won’t even need diamond skin at all to function, so you can take stone heart. In fact, this setup has even more condi immunity imo in more sitautions, but it doesn’t have the ability to readily share shocking aura, so its balanced by that.

For soldier runes to work, you need the shout. Nice AOE aura on shouts, so no need to share them… while it regen them, so condi cleanses…

But… why not doing cantrip build and use the same AOE cleanse you use to, go to Air for fresh air, to do AOE Shock aura over overloading each 6 second? Use sigil of intelligence…

I like support build, and tried something like that with Crusader ammy. Was great but low hp versus all burst, was my problem.

Since they didn’t balance HoT new traits + skills + weapons with the HP tier of classes, like vanilla… they should EQUALIZE all HP to middle ground.

nearlight.3064:

This is why torrents+cleansing water+soldier runes+all shouts feels like the best build right now compared to pure aurashare that has trouble with heavy condi teams (unless you magically happen to fight a team with poor condi pressure).

But then you can forget about overloading on a point.

I almost wish they would just delete cleansing water and give us actual condi clear on our weapon skills and utilities (only cleansing fire and water sig.. really?)

Not enough…..not even close to enough..not enough to escape perma chill

Supreme.3164:

nearlight.3064:

This is why torrents+cleansing water+soldier runes+all shouts feels like the best build right now compared to pure aurashare that has trouble with heavy condi teams (unless you magically happen to fight a team with poor condi pressure).

But then you can forget about overloading on a point.

I almost wish they would just delete cleansing water and give us actual condi clear on our weapon skills and utilities (only cleansing fire and water sig.. really?)

Not enough…..not even close to enough..not enough to escape perma chill

with this setup you can stall a 1v1 against viper revenant. Haven’t 1v1ed a condi necro enough to try that though but since they have way more poison and chill it would probably swing their favor. And honestly I think thats fair. The 1v1 oriented condi build should be able to kill the teamfight oriented support build. Thats why people bring condi necro at all, to kill super cele bunkers that marauders cannot.

nearlight.3064:

Supreme.3164:

nearlight.3064:

This is why torrents+cleansing water+soldier runes+all shouts feels like the best build right now compared to pure aurashare that has trouble with heavy condi teams (unless you magically happen to fight a team with poor condi pressure).

But then you can forget about overloading on a point.

I almost wish they would just delete cleansing water and give us actual condi clear on our weapon skills and utilities (only cleansing fire and water sig.. really?)

Not enough…..not even close to enough..not enough to escape perma chill

with this setup you can stall a 1v1 against viper revenant. Haven’t 1v1ed a condi necro enough to try that though but since they have way more poison and chill it would probably swing their favor. And honestly I think thats fair. The 1v1 oriented condi build should be able to kill the teamfight oriented support build. Thats why people bring condi necro at all, to kill super cele bunkers that marauders cannot.

Then it’s only fair for these condi specs to lose 1vs1 against diamond skin as no other set up work

Supreme.3164:

nearlight.3064:

Supreme.3164:

nearlight.3064:

This is why torrents+cleansing water+soldier runes+all shouts feels like the best build right now compared to pure aurashare that has trouble with heavy condi teams (unless you magically happen to fight a team with poor condi pressure).

But then you can forget about overloading on a point.

I almost wish they would just delete cleansing water and give us actual condi clear on our weapon skills and utilities (only cleansing fire and water sig.. really?)

Not enough…..not even close to enough..not enough to escape perma chill

with this setup you can stall a 1v1 against viper revenant. Haven’t 1v1ed a condi necro enough to try that though but since they have way more poison and chill it would probably swing their favor. And honestly I think thats fair. The 1v1 oriented condi build should be able to kill the teamfight oriented support build. Thats why people bring condi necro at all, to kill super cele bunkers that marauders cannot.

Then it’s only fair for these condi specs to lose 1vs1 against diamond skin as no other set up work

I guess so, given that a tempest shouldn’t be 1v1ing unless holding the point (think like a bunker guard, support teamfights) and the fact that diamond skin is mostly useless in teamfights.

I can play Tempest without Diamond Skin. I only use it on Necromancers because their condition output and transfer skills are ridiculous. Every other class is easy, especially Mesmer.