Guild Wars 2

Have I been criticizing the guide?

Dub.1273:

First, the rotation. Your’s basically consists of Fire 2, 4, 3, Earth 4, Water 5, LH, one blast and somewhen in between the new heal skill and arcane wave.

That is a very inaccurate description. My exact rotation (looking at my skill bar in the vid) was:

Fire 2 > 4 > 3 + Earth while casting > A. Wave > Brilliance + 4 while casting > Water > 5 > Summon LH > 2x LH chains. Only the 1st LH chain combos Area Might. That’s 21 Might in total.

There were 2 minor errors in this rotation. You only caught one of these errors, the timing of A. Wave. Instead of “A. Wave > Brilliance + 4 while casting” I should have done “Brilliance + A. Wave & 4 while casting,” as this would have saved me a few fractions of a sec, allowing me to swap to water slightly sooner, in turn allowing my 2nd LH AA chain to combo Area Might, leading to 24 stacks.

The 2nd error was mentioned by Impact: I should have used A. Wave in Water for the 20% modifier. This further changes the optimal might-stacking rotation to the following:

Fire 2 > 4 > 3 + Earth while casting > Brilliance + 4 while casting > Water > 5 + A. Wave while casting > Summon LH > 2x LH chains. Both LH chains combo Area Might, assuming you have no lag whatsoever. That’s 24 Might in total.
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Dub.1273:

But you’re using rather low skill coefficients in that rotation, especially the heal deals close to no damage. Simple improvement would be to simply kick it from your rotation. As a result you get: Fire 2, 4, 3, Earth 4, Water 5, Arcane Wave, LH, two LH blasts. You’re simply replacing the heal with an additional LH swing in time. This is indeed not very reliable, but you’ve been making non-practicable assumptions anyway.

You’re saying to replace Brilliance with a 2nd LH AA blast. However, the cast-time of Brilliance is significantly less than the after-cast CD of atune-swapping (1.625 sec; you were wrong about the 1.325 sec you mentioned earlier). Therefore, since you’re stuck in Earth for 1.625 sec anyway, you might as well use Brilliance. It does not lower DPS or cause you to enter Water any later.

Furthermore, as you said, getting the 2nd LH AA blast in on time is very unreliable. So if you were to “replace the heal with an additional LH swing,” as you put it, and that LH swing were to miss due to a tiny bit of lag (which is very likely), you’d only end up with 18 Might. Even if you got the 2nd swing in, that’s still only 21 Might. Using the heal, however, is a guaranteed 21 Might and a possible 24 Might. Your idea to “kick the heal from your rotation” is a bad one.
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Dub.1273:

As a further improvement, since earth attunement, magnetic wave and water attunement do not interrupt skills but have a 1.325 second (?) delay between swap (some miliseconds still getting consumed by phoenix), you can use the new heal skill exactly in between that window, to simply gain an additional finisher, leading to 24 stacks of might.
Again, highly theoertical.

“Using the new heal skill exactly between that window” between entering Earth and before Water is EXACTLY what I showed in that vid; don’t act like it was your idea when it wasn’t. It is NOT a “further improvement” because it was already there. In fact, I was the FIRST person to show its use in a vid. I posted that rotation vid mere hours after the Dec 10th update hit, 3 days BEFORE DEKeyz posted that EXACT SAME rotation I did on YouTube as part of her video guide.

I admit that it’s possible both DEKeyz and you could have also figured out how to most effectively use A. Brilliance in the Might stacking rotation on your own, but the fact is that I was the first person to publish it. Don’t act like you’re teaching me something when I’ve proven I knew it before you did.

Dub.1273:

Which leads to the next point: ‘strange’ assumptions. If I recall correctly, you’re assuming warriors banners beeing up (i.e. a team setting) but also assume you’re the only person blasting fields. /logic? Involvig other party members (even just one) into your rotation does not make S/F being optimal anymore. Assuming S/D, others can blast your fire field much easier…

Read the very first part of my guide. I’ll copy it here for you:

“This guide is oriented towards players who do PvE content in zerk groups, and would like to maximize their group’s damage, which is the best way in which they can help their group. The term “zerk groups” includes both organized guild runs and pugs who ping zerk gear – yes, you CAN pug with these builds!”

The assumptions I used were made with the following idea in mind: a pug with 2x wars, 1x ele (you), 1x guard/mes, and 1x other, all of whom pinged zerk gear. It is standard practice in pugs to figure out who has disc banner and who has str; hence, I assumed str and disc banners in my calculations. I did not assume Spotter/Frost Spirit because there are not usually rangers in pug zerk groups, and I did not assume Empower Allies because most zerk wars run 30/25/0/0/15.

Some pug groups prestack might via banner summons and stomps, and some don’t; the builds and rotations in my guide cover both possibilities.

As for blasts, I assume the wars use axe/mace + GS; hence, only banner blasts (no blast finisher or fire field via LB). Furthermore, I assume that nobody will be picking up banners to stomp with in the middle of a fight (never seen that happen in a pug). The mesmer has no blasts, and the guard only has a single blast via Focus 5 (which I assume he’ll use when he needs survivability, not to combo might). The guard also has PF, but I assume he’ll use that when we need cleanses, not to give me a fire field. There probably won’t be a thief, but even if there is, I assume he won’t be swapping to SB in the middle of a fight just to spam Clusterbomb for might, since the 10 sec CD before he can swap back to dagger is a huge DPS loss.

THIS is why I assume that your group prestacks might via banners, but once combat begins, YOU are the only one blasting and providing fire fields. Because this is normal for a zerk pug, and I want people to be able to pug with the builds in my guide. Embers, other fire fields, and blast finishers from party members just don’t happen in pugs, even zerk ones – and if they do, their timing isn’t well-coordinated due to lack of voice-chat. Even in guild runs, party members only spam Embers if someone is recording the run.
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Dub.1273:

… and assuming you get to 25 stacks of might, dagger offhand offers higher skill coefficients. Fire Grab as example is leading to a slight dps increase over a pure LH chain and is aswell useable in the small downtime of the LH. Oh and you can technically get to 24 might stacks with S/D, which sadly leads to ~45% uptime on hammer instead of 90%.

Impact did a good job dealing with this already; see his previous posts.
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Dub.1273:

Other than that you’re missing out on an amazing 3 stacks might in comparison to S/F, once again under the assumption your party members are all really bad pugs (which might lead to problems keeping all amplifiers in a build and make other build choices better for such situation.

If your group can maintain the cap of 25 Might without you stacking the maximum of 21 or 24 Might per rotation, then sure, go increase your personal DPS by dropping a few blast finishers from your rotation. But I assume that your group can’t maintain that 25 Might cap without you providing 21 stacks of Might, for reasons I’ve previously stated.
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Dub.1273:

I might take a look at your suggested builds now, didn’t calculate any of them through yet. (Note: this sentence might be comllete rubbish as I attempted to take a german phrase into english. Furthermore please ignore any obvious spelling or grammar mistakes, as I’ve been writing this from my mobile phone.)

So far, you’ve only done 2 things:
1) Suggest I can (unreliably) get 3 extra might be speeding up the exact same rotation I demonstrated in my vid; and
2) Argue about my assumptions.

You haven’t actually found anything wrong with my maths or my builds. I suggest you look at the builds and at my spreadsheet if you hope to find anything concrete.

Dub.1273:

Have I been criticizing the guide?

Your post prior to this was the first one in which you addressed aspects of the guide, specifically the rotation and the assumptions sections. As I put it previously:

Anierna.6918:

So far, you’ve only done 2 things:
1) Suggest I can (unreliably) get 3 extra might be speeding up the exact same rotation I demonstrated in my vid; and
2) Argue about my assumptions.

You haven’t actually found anything wrong with my maths or my builds.

Prior the that, the only thing you did in this and other threads was criticize ME, not my work or my arguments. I’d say you’re making progress, as you’ve started to move away from personal attacks and towards logical discussion.

Fun. However, the attack goes towards your attitude, rather than against your maths or guide. It isn’t personal.

About the might stacking: in comparison to the viability of using scepter’s fire field and the probability of two warriors and two other professions not providing a single might stack is much lower than the probability of messing up own rotation.

Anyway, as you have seemed to miss the key points of my posts I do not review this as discussion worthy and would just like to remind you of who you’re messing with. Not me, particulary, but lots of people in the current game’s more optimized and organized community who are ‘curious’ about you. To be honest, this simply seems to be a better organized 6u4n6m47h thread.

Dub.1273:

Anierna.6918:

@ Iris: If anyone steals my LH, I kick them instantly. No 2nd chances, no talking about it, nothing – just the kick. The only exception is if the Mesmer already has 3x phantasms up and wants to use my hammer, but that needs to be discussed beforehand.

The trick for aiming Dragon’s Tooth doesn’t always work atm. It worked a lot more consistently in the past.

The last boss in both TA up & TA fwd should be stacked so cleaves & AoEs hit twice each time, and reflects should be rotated to protect the stack (eg. standing inside of WoR). Leaving the stack results in being kicked.

Please make sure to kick yourself when you miss a dodge or differ from an optimal rotation (which you have yet to figure out, I think).

I’m all for increasing people’s usefulness and teaching them how to play effective. Pretending to be perfect and kicking others without explanation doesn’t help achieving this, though.

And seriously, not even everything you say is right. You yet refused to show any reaction and seem to proceed that way, but that isn’t going to make some stuff of you less wrong.

Was just going to quote my initial post here myself, but since Impact’s posts magically seem to be gone, this is obsolete.

You’re not fooling anyone. You’ve been posting here negatively with regard to both the guide and the OP long before that post was made. You’re just trying to find any little thing you possibly can to fuel your unjustified dislike. My post may have been deleted, but it’s the attitude and arrogance that you bring that isn’t wanted here.

Once more however, I will address your post. This time I will compare the ideology to accepted real-world practices where teaching is concerned.

Ideology here: Ask for a specific group composition with offensive stats. Willing to teach those unfamiliar, as is evidenced by this very thread. If someone refuses to learn or follow the majority agreed approach in the dungeon after saying they will and want to, they are being disruptive. They are going back on their own claim and putting the dungeon at risk due to the necessity of the chosen strategy as a result of the builds of the party members. The logical course of action is to warn them before removing them from the equation if the problem persists.

Educational bodies: Have specific requirements for enrollment. Willing to teach those new to the field, although sometimes they must have proven their motivation and dedication by obtaining other qualifications. If someone refuses to learn or try after signing a declaration stating that they will, they are wasting people’s time, being disruptive and have broken the agreement. They risk having a negative impact on their peers. They get warned and if nothing changes, are removed.

You don’t have to be a tutor in the real world, just like you don’t have to follow the ideology in this thread. It is merely aimed at people who want to speed clear content, just like an educational body might specialise in a single area. You don’t have to enroll on a course, just like you don’t have to join a party advertising for speed runs.

For further clarification, ‘Educational bodies’ may include schools, colleges, universities, martial arts clubs, team-sports clubs, and areas of private tuition for anything ranging from playing a musical instrument to flying a plane. Basically any establishment that specialises in teaching a subject, skill, trade or conduct.

If you truly object to this ideology so strongly, I suggest you dispute it elsewhere. You won’t make a difference on that large a scale arguing on an MMO forum.

EDIT: This is solely in response to you nitpicking the idea of kicking someone for the above reasons. I felt I should make that undoubtedly clear for you, before you attempt to apply this to the ENTIRE guide. For that is what this is – a guide, which like many aspects of all games, implemented by the developers and brought by the players, use ideologies and practices which are found in the real world.

Impact.2780:

You’re not fooling anyone. You’ve been posting here negatively with regard to both the guide and the OP long before that post was made.

I never wanted to fool anyone. The post I quoted has been the first post I made in this topic which contained some kind of negativity.

Impact.2780:

You’re just trying to find any little thing you possibly can to fuel your unjustified dislike.

There is no unjustified dislike towards the guide or Anierna, as already stated I very much appreciate the work he puts into this. My dislike goes towards his attitude (see: below) and his arrogance. At least to me it seems that he’s pretending to be perfect, although making quite a few (minor to major) mistakes in his conclusion, which include but not specifically are related to the assumptions he makes (which I did not even want to argue about, since some of his builds are good on paper but rather bad in reality, nevertheless have to do).

Impact.2780:

My post may have been deleted, but it’s the attitude and arrogance that you bring that isn’t wanted here.

I did not find too much of either bad attitude or arrogance in my first post.
Just a bit of background information, it was not me being first to join others forum section, instead it was Anierna making posts in the dungeon forums, which have also lead to the following post by Zelyhn.

Also, Aniernas arrogance is very irritating

Impact.2780:

Once more however, I will address your post. This time I will compare the ideology to accepted real-world practices where teaching is concerned.

Ideology here: snip

Educational bodies: snap

Very interesting. You seem to have missed what part of Aniernas attitude my post aimed against. It was kicking people for doing minor mistakes without any warning or previously set up rules. To translate that into your real world: it’s like being a teacher on school, having a pupil from the very first year until his school exam. Now, at some certain point in which the pupil fails a test, despite previously always having A+ marks, the teacher now decides to exclude that pupil from any further lessons and gives him a F mark, without even telling the pupil what he did wrong.

Impact.2780:

You don’t have to be a tutor in the real world, just like you don’t have to follow the ideology in this thread. It is merely aimed at people who want to speed clear content, just like an educational body might specialise in a single area. You don’t have to enroll on a course, just like you don’t have to join a party advertising for speed runs.

How arrogant this might sound, I think you misunderstand who I am. It’s not like I have to learn much about speedruns, instead, I’m certainly sure that I have more experience in such than Anierna himself.

Impact.2780:

EDIT: This is solely in response to you nitpicking the idea of kicking someone for the above reasons. I felt I should make that undoubtedly clear for you, before you attempt to apply this to the ENTIRE guide. For that is what this is – a guide, which like many aspects of all games, implemented by the developers and brought by the players, use ideologies and practices which are found in the real world.

See above, you seem to have misunderstood what my post was directly directed to, although I quoted Anierna’s post.

However, thanks for the work you put into your post and thanks for a rather professional discussion. Not often to see such happen on profession forums.
Since this post contains a lot of self-defense, given the “attacking” reasoning behind the post I am refering to (note: moderators, please do not see this as reason to delete his post. Sidenote: I have no idea why your previous post has been infracted (?), as I didn’t find it offending.), I’ll probably make another post showing further flaws in the assumption he makes (keyword: full endurance, all conditions met but four people being unable to provide a single stack of might) and their impact on the usefulness in real dungeon runs/speedclears of the builds Anierna provides.

Shameless advertisement!

That’s the second time you’ve all but dismissed a post stating that it “misses” what you meant or points you made. Instead, it would appear we are both going no where because we are disputing under different assumptions. I assume – in fact I know, because I’ve known Anie for a long time, but I say assume because it is not stated anywhere (I don’t believe it needs to be either) – that she would make known the expectations and strategies (which if you think about it, is obvious if you’re discussing or showing the best known approach to a scenario) and issue corrections with warnings to those that refuse to work with the party in the strategy they chose. That only after that, if the party member in question does not attempt to right what they did wrong or try the chosen approach, they are kicked as a last resort and as the lesser of two evils (the greater being to waste the time of the other 4 members that want a cooperative team to finish the content). You on the other hand, must have decided to assume the worst; that a player joins the group, doesn’t know what to do, is not told or helped in any way, and when they do it wrong is kicked without warning or discussion. That seems to be what your grounds for dispute are. Why you decided to assume the worst, which, in this case is highly unreasonable given the evidence suggests the OP wants to help players, I have no idea. The only solution to a dispute arising out of opposing assumptions is to agree on which is “most likely” to be correct (which I believe mine is), or to have both arguments made irrelevant by revelation of the facts by one who knows them (in this case, Anie).

I would have been able to address this directly much sooner if you had made your reasons known at the time, rather than just indicating a dislike for what was said.

I didn’t misunderstand who you are, because I don’t know who you are. You’ve made it apparent that you can do well in dungeon runs, yes. But I don’t abandon my reasoning skills and blindly accept what someone says just because of their achievements or ability. I like to think for myself lol.

As for what you plan to do next, it sounds constructive. Constructive criticism is often useful =P. It would nice to get out of this attack/defend routine and into one of discussing and concluding.

Anierna.6918:

@ Iris: If anyone steals my LH, I kick them instantly. No 2nd chances, no talking about it, nothing – just the kick. The only exception is if the Mesmer already has 3x phantasms up and wants to use my hammer, but that needs to be discussed beforehand.

This kind of implies that there would not have been any talking or discussion prior to the kick and that there won’t be discussion about why one was kicked.

Prior to my next post, I’d actually like to hear what kind of party setup Anierna assumes. Not the gear/builds (well, that would be nice too) but at least the professions.

Wow. A lot has happened in this thread since my last post. Moderators seem to have deleted something, and much of what’s left doesn’t have anything to do with improving the actual guide via constructive criticism. Everyone please keep that objective in mind for further posts.

@ Dub: I didn’t mention it earlier, but if I’m pug’ing, I tell people at the start of the dungeon not to steal my hammer. And they almost never steal it, so I’ve almost never had to kick someone.

I posted the group comp I assume in another thread:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Which-would-you-prefer-in-your-dungeon-team/first#post3432790

To summarize it:
2x War
1x Ele
1x Mes or Guard
1x Other (never a Necro, never a 2nd Mes or 2nd Guard)

Generally, the “Other” spot is either a Mes/Guard or a 3rd War. It’s occasionally a Thief or 2nd Ele, and rarely an Engi or Ranger.

Builds:
War: axe/mace + GS, 30/25/0/0/15
Ele: s/f or s/d, 30/30/10/0/0/ or 30/10/10/20/0
Mes: sw/f + OH sw, 15/30/0/25/0 or 10/30/0/20/10
Guard: sw/f + GS (or staff), 10/30/0/5/25

@ Dub: I’m pretty sure one of the assumptions you will object to is the 100% up-time on full Endurance. I agree, that’s unrealistic. I’ll change that now to 50%. Which would make Water 25 superior to Earth 25 (1.01^5 > 1.05), meaning I’ll have to change Build D from 0/25/25/20/0 to 0/25/20/25/0.

EDIT: The guide has been updated to incorporate 50% uptime on full endurance. The spreadsheet has as well, linked here (this is the old spreadsheet, before I deleted Build C and re-lettered. The newest version of the spreadsheet is in my next post)

The new EP’s are:

A: 19505.92
B: 22737.33
C: 21517.34
D: 22301.28
E: 21853.86
F: 21607.91
G: 20803.00

Looking at the new EP’s, I see something interesting: Build C now has a lower EP than Build E, even though the latter has greater utility since it stacks Vuln. Therefore, I ought to eliminate Build C altogether.

Changed Build C. Updated the guide, spreadsheet, and Build Diagram to reflect this. My calculations can be reviewed here

The EP’s are now:

A: 19505.92
B: 22737.33
C: 22400.10
D: 22301.28
E: 21853.86
F: 21607.91
G: 20803.00

EDIT: I’m thinking about what other objections to my assumptions you might make…. The only one I can see is the 100% uptime on modifiers from Vital Striking and Scholar Runes. Here’s my defense of that 100% uptime:

You can preserve your health via: 2x dodges, 2x blocks via aegis (guard’s f3 and Retreat!), guard’s f2, A. Brilliance, passive Healing Mist via AA’ing in Water, scepter 3 in Water, WoR & Mag. Wave for reflects, and focus 5 in Earth for invuln. All that ought to be plenty to keep you above 90% until the boss is dead.

Hi,

i have had an lvl-80-ele for quite some time, but started playing her seriously about two weeks ago.

So i really appreciate guides like yours.

I don´t know if it is common knowledge, because i did not find the information in your guide:
I realized that you can easily stack 21 might pre-fight with your rotation for S/F and then switch to S/D for another earth 4&5.

I tried this, because with S/D i am not able to aim the water 5 correctly and i ended up with only 15 stacks might.

MHo.1056:

I don´t know if it is common knowledge, because i did not find the information in your guide:
I realized that you can easily stack 21 might pre-fight with your rotation for S/F and then switch to S/D for another earth 4&5.

I tried this, because with S/D i am not able to aim the water 5 correctly and i ended up with only 15 stacks might.

It’s a good idea that you do see used in parts of game play, like for getting swiftness while on the move and stuff. It might be a useful tip to include for might stacking; I’m not 100% though, because the time taken to swap off-hand weapons might cost you a blast finisher with the lightning hammer. It’ll be down to the individual’s ability regarding whether they can get all the combos in the field or not, I suppose.

Regarding comet and pre-stacking though, once you cast dragon tooth and position flame wall under it, while casting phoenix, earth, arcane brilliance and magnetic wave, move to the closest end of the line of fire, face the other end and tilt the camera down and align the other end of the fire in the centre of your screen. When you switch to water and cast comet, it will land in the centre of the fire field for area might =P.

Well, thx for clarification for aiming the comet correctly. Although i have to complement your description.

If i move to the end of the fire field my camera already needs to be angled completely down, or it will miss.

If i move to the end of the fire field and angle down the camera only now, i have to do a step forward and backwards, or it will miss.

Considering the above, i am able to land the comet in the fire field 100%.

I also searched for a way to do the same with dragon-tooth, while looking down. But this will work only 90%.

It will only work 100% with the described way in the guide. Looking upwards, move a bit and activate.

I don´t think, that you will lose a blast finisher with the lightning hammer, when stacking might with weapon swap, because you will do it only pre-fight and switch back to S/F immediatly.

And i think it is much easier this way, because you only have to aim the dragon-tooth correctly and don´t have to bother about comet. But i think that is a matter of preference.

Thx for your help.

I knew Vuln stacked additively, meaning a 1.25 modifier, rather than multiplicatively, which would have been a 1.28 modifier.

I had assumed it was applied after everything else (EP, wep strength, skill coefficients, target’s armor), but I’m not so sure. In case it stacks with the other modifiers, I’ve revised my spreadsheet, here

MHo.1056:

I don´t think, that you will lose a blast finisher with the lightning hammer, when stacking might with weapon swap, because you will do it only pre-fight and switch back to S/F immediatly.

You’re right, of course. And I knew it was about pre-stacking! …So why did I say you could lose finishers with lightning hammer…? lol. Fail.

Anierna.6918:

I knew Vuln stacked additively, meaning a 1.25 modifier, rather than multiplicatively, which would have been a 1.28 modifier.

I had assumed it was applied after everything else (EP, wep strength, skill coefficients, target’s armor), but I’m not so sure. In case it stacks with the other modifiers, I’ve revised my spreadsheet, here

i have a question.

why dont you introduce s/d build?

it’s just staff and s/f.

any reason?

s/f stacks more might then s/d, so there’s never a good reason to use s/d. The only reason I’ve even heard people give is that OH dagger has a larger fire field, but that’s not a valid reason because it’s still very easy to position banner summons and stomps on Flamewall.

The s/d rotations are included already though, entitled Pre-Stacking Might with S/D and Stacking Might with S/D. If you want to use OH dagger instead of focus, just replace the might-stacking parts of the LH rotations with the dagger versions previously mentioned.

Spreadsheet Changelog

- Approximated Bolt to the Heart as a 5% modifier
- Added in a second tab for Ascended Armor
- Further refined the prec/power balance (zerk/assassins mix)

The current version of the spreadsheet is here

New EPs for Exotic Armor:
A: 25673.21
B: 29921.53
C: 29399.90
D: 29432.44
E: 28836.69
F: 28361.05
G: 27368.53

New EPs for Ascended Armor
A: 25945.52
B: 30237.61
C: 29787.06
D: 29747.00
E: 29139.06
F: 28733.34
G: 27634.21

Sorry for my late response, as I’ve been busy the last days.

About the assumptions you make, I have no problem with assuming >90% HP all time, as that’s possible and only limited to player skill in most circumstances. Nevertheless, a differenation per situation would be suitable for sure, alltogether it’s probably possible in about 80% of all cases, without losing out on personal damage too much to make staying >90% HP worth.

However, the assumptions you make are:

Anierna.6918:

Assumptions & Variables:

All builds assume the following:
- Zerk ascended trinkets without stat infusions
- Zerk ascended weapons (for s/f, force + night/dungeon [15% modifier]; for staff, night/dungeon [10% modifier])
- Scholar Runes
- Powerful Dungeon Potion (10% modifier)
- Discipline Banner (170 prec & 15% crit dmg)
- Strength Banner (170 power & 170 condi dmg)
- Arcane Brilliance healing skill
- Signet of Fire (180 prec) & Arcane Wave Utilities; Lightning Hammer for s/f, Arcane Blast for staff
- A burning, bleeding, vulnerable target
- You have perma: Fury, 25 Might, 5 boons total, 50% uptime on full endurance
- On the staff build, 100% uptime on Arcane Lightning (10% crit dmg)
- On the s/f builds which have Arcane Lightning, 50% uptime on the 10% crit dmg.
- On all s/f builds, Conjure Lightning Attributes (180 prec & 5% crit dmg)

in a group consisting of 1 Ele, 1 Mesmer/Guardian, 2 Warriors and one variable.

As you assume permanent 25 stacks vulnerability, which is only reachable with one dedicated “vuln bot”, especially on bosses, the last profession you assume is either a domination mesmer, which limits boss fights to be ~15 seconds at most, or an engineer using grenades. As the mesmer builds you told me did not have 20 in domination (the new “meta” build is 0/30/0/25/15 or 10/20/0/25/15 by the way, since illusionists celerity (?) got moved to 15 in illusions) and you also never use a second mesmer, the fifth person in your group must be an engineer, just to match that single assumption. So the party you assume is 2 war, 1 ele, 1 mes/guard, 1 engi.

Next about permanent fury, although not all of your builds have purging flames. That limits all fury output to the two warriors (fgj+disc banner #2, warbanner), the mesmer (signet of inspiration) and the engineer (Toss Elexir B, 33% chance on 10 seconds fury). As warbanner is not recharged for all fights, even with two warbanners, only one used per encounter, I will not take this into account. As people constantly picking up banners, using #2 skill results in a rather heavy dps loss, I will not take this into account aswell. So let’s see what we have: Toss Elexir B with 3.3 second Fury per 30 seconds on average, 8 seconds from FGJ x 2 per 24 seconds. To make it easier we can say that’s 20 seconds on 25 seconds cooldown. Together with the mesmer signet we now have 100% fury uptime.

The biggest issue I have with your assumptions now comes, as it seems pretty contradicting to me: you assume that the ele is the only person stacking any might in the group. As an engineer stacks 6 might on average, using a somewhat close to optimal rotation (little vuln stacks lost, assuming no other party members do vulnerability, but small gain in personal damage) and two warriors using FGJ or Warbanner, of which both stack 3 might, just to maintain the required fury, this just becomes impossible. Especially considering the mesmer has to use the signet to get the last bit of fury uptime done. You can’t be the only person stacking might when you assume permanent vulnerability and fury.

As next point, which you didn’t nessecarily involve but follows from the topic “speed runs”, there is swiftness. Okay, no big deal, two warriors with warhorn and/or a guardian with Retreat easily take care of that. But at the same time, they again gain an additional blast finisher on a 20 seconds cooldown to blast your fire fields, resulting in 6 might. No need to use Mace offhand, since it only has a 1% damage increase over pure Axe when vuln is being capped (which is, engineer!). So at least 12 stacks of might are constantly being given by your party, even when warriors are using banners out of your fields and the mesmer does not use SoI. Furthermore, assuming the engineer is required to stack vuln, you can cap vuln without him spamming grenades only and he is able to do a rather easy rotation with bomb kit each 20 seconds, you’re now at 18 might, 6 coming per warrior and the engineer. To cap 25 stacks, you personally only have to do 7 might stacks to cap might.
Since some of the skills in an elementalists might stacking rotation have a low coefficient, including the healing skill, you can now just kick them out of your rotation to gain some personal DPS increase, while not affecting the party at all. Or you use them for blast finishers when stealthing, for whatever reason.

As this has been my main concern, I’ll not go into detail for the last few points I make and just mention what’s not realistic.

Earth 25 (full endurance) on 100% uptime. Meanwhile you already updated this to 50% uptime, which is an acceptable value, as there are some bossfights with less and some with more uptime.

Conjurer not being required. Most important trait an elementalist can chose, aside of Purging Flames and Air 25. Not only for the countless situation an FGS results in a fairly high dps increase (basically all situations, even with just one rush combined with lightning flash) which leads to the next small thing I’d like to mention: usually taking lightning flash and doing one fiery rush, is almost always worth more than taking signet of fire. Most bosses have about 1.2 million health so their healthpool fits doing 2x rush with lighning flash pretty well. Or just dropping arcane wave, although that’s a quite nice utility skill overall.

Not all targets can bleed and/or burn. I think in CoF there are quite some bosses that are immune to burning (?).

Ascended armor, ascended weapons, ascended trinkets but no stat infusions? I think anyone who can afford 800g for ascended armor can very well afford some laurels/WvW badges or gold to at least get the stat increase of offensive infusion slots, which is pretty much at the same level of damage increase as a whole ascended armor.

Last point: a bit too much theory. All this is indeed very helpful and I really appreciate all the work done, but it is a bit too theoretical for my taste. Even if editing assumptions, most builds that will come out as max. damage won’t be suitable for real dungeon/fractal runs.

Edit: I’m sorry about the formatting, I wrote the text as one response, tried to submit but got stopped by the 5001 char limit. So I had to copy and paste it into a .txt file and paste the two parts in here again. Looks like that broke something.

Dub.1273:

Sorry for my late response, as I’ve been busy the last days.

I’ve been busy too recently The time I do have I’ve spent trying new builds for Engi and Necro. I remembered Neko saying earlier:

Neko.9021:

If you’re looking for a challenge, explore the world of making a Necromancer optimal in a dungeon group.

Then you said…

Dub.1273:

As you assume permanent 25 stacks vulnerability, which is only reachable with one dedicated “vuln bot”, especially on bosses, the last profession you assume is either a domination mesmer, which limits boss fights to be ~15 seconds at most, or an engineer using grenades. As the mesmer builds you told me did not have 20 in domination (the new “meta” build is 0/30/0/25/15 or 10/20/0/25/15 by the way, since illusionists celerity (?) got moved to 15 in illusions) and you also never use a second mesmer, the fifth person in your group must be an engineer, just to match that single assumption. So the party you assume is 2 war, 1 ele, 1 mes/guard, 1 engi.

Then I talked to Impact about it, since I rarely play Necro, and it turns out a Necro can take the Engi’s spot as the dedicated “vuln bot.” In fact, a Necro can upkeep perma 25 vuln on the boss more easily than an Engi can, since Necro vuln lasts longer, which means you don’t need as much condi duration to maintain perma 25 stacks. The build is as follows:

Traits:
Spite: 10 (VI)
Curses: 10 (V)
Death Magic: 20 (I)(IX)
Blood Magic: 0
Soul Reaping: 30 (II)(VI)(XII)

Weapons: Dagger/Focus + swap to Axe
Utilities: Well of Suffering & Spectral Grasp

Sources of Vuln:
Focus 4: 12 stacks on single target. 10 sec base duration.
Well of Suffering: 2 stacks per sec for 6 secs (12 total). 5 sec base duration.
Death Magic IX: 3 stacks every 3 secs while in DS. 10 sec base duration.
Life Blast: 2 stacks per sec. 10 sec base duration.

Rotation:
Assume you start at 100% Life Force. Use Well of Suffering then Focus 4. Then use Death Shroud and spam 1. Keep 5 on CD. If there are lots of mobs, use 4. Once your Life Force gets down to 50%, exit DS. To get Life Force back to 100%, use Spectral Grasp, then Axe 2, then 2x dagger AA chains, then Focus 4. Go back into DS and spam 1. You want to stay above 50% Life Force for the 5% dmg modifier, and you want to stay in DS as much as possible for passive vuln stacking and the +50% crit chance.

This build stacks vuln faster than a grenade Engi and is able to maintain it with less condi duration, which means you can use more offensive gear/runes/food instead, resulting in higher dmg than an Engi.

I used Nike’s Engi build, here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zK24sCu-G2w, when I was comparing vuln stacking to Necro. That’s when I noticed that Nike is losing out on DPS with his 30/5/0/10/25 build. His traits are wrong.

A 30/30/10/0/0 build does significantly more dmg than 30/5/0/10/25. Not only that, but it stacks both vuln and bleeds better. Since you’re stacking additional vuln, you don’t need as much condi duration to maintain perma 25 stacks on bosses, which means you can switch out some condi duration gear/runes/food for more offensive stuff.

[EDIT: I just found a guide by Guang that already had the 30/30 Engi build, here. I haven’t found any vuln-stacking Necro guides, though, so I’m hoping at least that one’s original.]

Comparing my vuln-stacking Engi build to my vuln-stackign necro build, both maintain perma 25 stacks vuln and have very similar kill times for the Indestructible Golem on HotM. However, the Necro has 2 advantages over the Engi: 1) the kill time is slightly faster; and 2) all its dmg is direct, whereas the Engi stacks 20+ bleeds. If anyone else in the group is also stacking bleeds (eg. War on crit and Mes phantasms), Engi dmg will suffer a lot.

What does all this mean? I means Necros are useful again!

Back to your Ele post…

Anicetus.1253:

The biggest issue I have with your assumptions now comes, as it seems pretty contradicting to me: you assume that the ele is the only person stacking any might in the group.

Since some of the skills in an elementalists might stacking rotation have a low coefficient, including the healing skill, you can now just kick them out of your rotation to gain some personal DPS increase, while not affecting the party at all. Or you use them for blast finishers when stealthing, for whatever reason.

I’ll add a rotation that leaves out A. Brilliance and Comet if your group is already capping Might.

Anicetus.1253:

Ascended armor, ascended weapons, ascended trinkets but no stat infusions? I think anyone who can afford 800g for ascended armor can very well afford some laurels/WvW badges or gold to at least get the stat increase of offensive infusion slots, which is pretty much at the same level of damage increase as a whole ascended armor.

There are 2 tabs on my spreadsheet: the first is for exotic armor, the second for ascended armor. In my guide, I assume exotic armor, but there’s also a note that if you’re getting ascended armor, you should look at the second tab.

In the ascended tab, 5 of the 7 builds are at 100% crit chance, so you’d want to use Power infusions. The remaining 2 builds are at 99% crit chance, so you could use a few Prec infusions to bump it up to 100%, but the majority of infusions would be Power. If I were to add in infusions, I’d probably do it as a third tab.

One other thing about that Necro vuln-stacking build. I’m not sure whether or not this works, but if the trait for the 10% dmg modifier while wielding axe is still applied while in DS, you could increase dmg by using 20/0/20/0/30 instead of 10/10/20/0/30.

The trait applies.
However, necromancer’s won’t be viable because of this, just as engineers generally aren’t. They probably are on paper, for a real time dungeon record, they would be about last choice. Necromancers might deal slightly less personal damage than engineers, but they sacrifice all additional “support” options.

I’d love seing necromancers viable in PvE, as I main mine for PvP and WvW. To accomplish that, the necromancer must get a lot more than just vuln stacking abilities or increased personal damage. Vigor, movement and additional support, the necromancer currently provides none :/

Thanks for sharing that necro rotation though, I might test that on alphard soon.

Ive been discussing vuln bot necro with anierna aswell. Its an interesting concept. Im just reluctant to sacrifice so much dps for it. One of the issues is most of the vuln is spread out in traitlines and on bad weapons/dps options. Atleast with the engi the vuln traits are in the dps traitlines.

Necro can still have a good up time of vulnerability without going into death magic. That’s just the only way I could see it reaching perm 25 stacks solo. The sacrifice would become Spiteful Talisman instead of Reaper’s Might – although I don’t suppose that’s a sacrifice when you have 25 stacks provided for you already. That would allow for reapplying focus 4 as soon as the vulnerability stacks drop, while still maintaining 10 stacks via life blast.

Impact.2780:

Necro can still have a good up time of vulnerability without going into death magic. That’s just the only way I could see it reaching perm 25 stacks solo. The sacrifice would become Spiteful Talisman instead of Reaper’s Might – although I don’t suppose that’s a sacrifice when you have 25 stacks provided for you already. That would allow for reapplying focus 4 as soon as the vulnerability stacks drop, while still maintaining 10 stacks via life blast.

Its not that simple.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unshakable

Trying to achieve an offensive trait setup for Necro that can compete with other classes is incredibly infuriating. A few minor swaps to a few traits in some future balance update would just make it so much easier.

- Putting Death Shiver (DM IX) in Curses as a Master trait by swapping it with any of the 4 current Master lvl Curses traits (all 4 are useless for PvE). It’s ridiculous that 1) a trait relating to DS is in DM rather than Spite, Curses, or SR with the other DS-related traits; and 2) that a DPS trait is in a support line rather than an offensive line.
- Swapping Death into Life (Spite 15) with Deadly Strength (DM 25) and swapping the 7% and 10% values. What’s an increased healing power trait doing in the power traitline anyway? Or if Anet wants to keep it there, change Death into Life from “power-to-healing power” to “power-to-prec.”
- Swapping Siphoned Power (Spire 25) with Target to Weak (Curses 25).

If these changes occurred, you could go 30/20/0/0/20 and have 1) optimal vuln stacking; and 2) higher DPS than spoj’s current 30/25/0/0/15 build. I doubt necro would be able to match War or Ele for dmg even after these changes, but they would definitely be a step in the right direction.

spoj.9672:

Its not that simple.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unshakable

Yeah, focus 4 for 12 stacks at 14*0.5=7 secs. For those 7 secs life blast at 14*0.5=7 secs. Totals 19 stacks for 7 seconds, then you lose the 12 from focus 4 taking you down to 7, which you maintain with life blast for the remaining 7 seconds cool down on focus 4. So 7 secs at 19, and 7 secs at 7, that’s (19+7)/2=13 stacks on average. Unless of course you kill it in less than 14 seconds, in which case the average will be higher.

So you can effectively maintain more than 10 =P. That’s assuming 20% condition duration from Spite since if you’re using life blast often you might as well grab axe training as well, and 20% from runes. Obviously you can squeeze a bit more out, another 4% from runes and 6% from sigil.

Anierna.6918:

Trying to achieve an offensive trait setup for Necro that can compete with other classes is incredibly infuriating. A few minor swaps to a few traits in some future balance update would just make it so much easier.

- Putting Death Shiver (DM IX) in Curses as a Master trait by swapping it with any of the 4 current Master lvl Curses traits (all 4 are useless for PvE). It’s ridiculous that 1) a trait relating to DS is in DM rather than Spite, Curses, or SR with the other DS-related traits; and 2) that a DPS trait is in a support line rather than an offensive line.
- Swapping Death into Life (Spite 15) with Deadly Strength (DM 25) and swapping the 7% and 10% values. What’s an increased healing power trait doing in the power traitline anyway? Or if Anet wants to keep it there, change Death into Life from “power-to-healing power” to “power-to-prec.”
- Swapping Siphoned Power (Spire 25) with Target to Weak (Curses 25).

If these changes occurred, you could go 30/20/0/0/20 and have 1) optimal vuln stacking; and 2) higher DPS than spoj’s current 30/25/0/0/15 build. I doubt necro would be able to match War or Ele for dmg even after these changes, but they would definitely be a step in the right direction.

You should post this here.

These are all suggestions I like. Its a shame min maxers have a small voice among the necro community.

Added in limbeurt’s flow chart for when to use conjures.

Compiled the guide, images, and spreadsheets into a more accessible PDF, here

From what I understood from the Live Stream yesterday, the changes to crit dmg will be as follows (Anet said they’re subject to change, and I may not have even understood them correctly):

- All crit dmg stats on gear will be changed to Ferocity stats in line with the other minor stats on zerk/assassins. (Eg. Zerk boots that used to give 34 Power, 24 Prec, 2% crit dmg will now give 34 Power, 24 Prec, 24 Ferocity.)

- All crit dmg stats on trait lines will be changed to Ferocity stats. (Eg. Going 30 into Air will no longer give 300 Prec and 30% crit dmg; it will now give 300 Prec and 300 Ferocity.)

- All crit dmg stats on food/buffs will be changed to Ferocity stats. (Eg. Sweet&Spiceys will no longer give 100 Power and 10% crit dmg; they will now give 100 Power and 100 Ferocity. Banner of Discipline will no longer give 170 Prec and 15% crit dmg; it will now give 170 Prec and 170 Ferocity.)

- 2-handed weps (staff for Ele) will no have 2 sigil slots.

- Armor of Earth’s base CD (before Cantrip Mastery) will be lowered from 90 sec to 75 sec.

- Trident (Water 3 on Scepter) will give AoE regen.

- Burning Speed (Fire 3 on Dagger) will be an evade.

- Frozen Burst (Water 3 on Dagger) will be a blast finisher.

Whether the changes to crit dmg will be a nerf or a buff depends upon the conversion ratio Anet chooses (they haven’t yet told us). The conversion ratio for Precision to Crit Chance is 21:1. If they choose that same ratio for Ferocity to Crit Dmg, we’re kittened. So will the ratio need to be to maintain our current amount of crit dmg? …. My spreadsheet’s on my other computer, but I’ll edit this post to give a number for each build in my guide by the end of the day.

When I was updating the spreadsheet with a tab to incorporate projected Ferocity changes, I realized Scholar runes will also change. The example they used of the new Strength runes is below:

Superior Rune of Strength:
1) 25 Power
2) 10% Might Duration
3) 50 Power
4) 15% Might Duration & 25% Chance when struck to gain Might for 10 secs with a 10 sec CD
5) 100 Power
6) 20% Might Duration & 5% dmg while under the effects of Might

Then, looking at the current 2 and 4 effects of Dolyak/Mesmer/Undead, the stat increases of 15 and 35 seem a bit low for Ferocity, considering the current Scholar effects of 3% and 5% crit dmg. So I’m guessing those numbers will be increased slightly, just like how the 5th effect of Strengths was increased from 90 to 100 Power. Furthermore, you can see the symmetry of 25 – 50 – 100 (they double), so the 4 effect will probably be double the 2 effect, and there will be a steady increase all the way from effect 1 to effect 5. My best estimate is that the new Scholar Runes will look like this:

Superior Rune of the Scholar:
1) 25 Power
2) 35 Ferocity
3) 50 Power
4) 70 Ferocity
5) 100 Power
6) 10% dmg while above 90% health

As for base crit dmg, I believe that will also change. Currently, at lvl 80, you get base 916 Power, Precision, Vitality, and Toughness. And also base 50% crit dmg, although that isn’t shown in the UI. I think they’re replace Attack (a useless stat) with Crit Dmg, and rearrange the stats a bit so Crit Dmg is across from Ferocity, just how Crit Chance is across from Precision.

They’ll probably give you base 916 Ferocity, then implement an equation that results in a lvl 80 still having base 50% crit dmg. The current equation for Precision to Crit Chance is Crit Chance = (Prec – 822)/21, which results in a base crit chance of 4%. So the Crit Dmg equation could look something like Crit Dmg = (Ferocity – 66)/17, which would give a base crit dmg of 50%.

On watching the livestream a second time, I realized they didn’t mention converting crit dmg to to ferocity in the trait lines. So it’ll still probably be 1% crit dmg per stat point in that particular line. The same will probably apply to skills like Arcane Lightning; 10% crit dmg, rather than some amount of Ferocity.

Will be trying some of these builds out when my Ele gets to 80.

Thanks!

Anierna.6918:

Compiled the guide, images, and spreadsheets into a more accessible PDF, here

I think someone should be telling you that your EP calculations are wrong

I already went through my EP calcs with Dub and a few others. The only 2 things that could still be wrong are the approximation of BttH as a 5% modifier and the assumption of 25 vuln. DE was using 5% for BttH, so I might as well approximate it that way too. As for the 25 vuln, I agree it’s unrealistic to have it for more than the first few secs of an engagement via OMM, but that’s usually all you need. There could still be an issue with how Vuln is applied (I’m not entirely sure it should be factored into EP, rather than at the end with armor), but Nike and DE were calculating it this way and they were sure it was correct, and I don’t care enough to test it myself. In regard to Vuln, as long as there is a standard method of calculation, it matters very little what that method is.

Your mistake is so obvious that it is scary.

It is really not about the method or the approximations. We all use the same methods I think.

Well I am not going to make this a riddle.
You assume that LH attributes are up all the time. This is an incorrect approximation, but you mentioned it in your assumptions so I am not going to blame you for this. Instead look at your rotation: all you do in water is 4 LH chains and comet, twice per rotation. And you assume 100% uptime on the 20% damage boost provided by Piercing shards? Don’t you think this is skewing your result enormously? The worse is that it is obvious you chose to disregard this inaccuracy: you did not even include the effect of Internal Fire anywhere in your calculations!

The point in EP here is comparison between builds of the same type. From what I’ve seen, each high damaging build presented uses the highest possible EP for that build - making it the standard representation, I suppose. This is fine if each of the builds have similar enough rotations, are measuring EP in the same way and will be spending most of their time with that referenced EP. It’s far from the most accurate DPS comparison, but it’s what everyone does, so it’s not a mistake. Her numbers are fine for their purpose.

That being said, if you want to compare completely different builds, such as a lightning hammer build with one without lightning hammer, then even factoring in all the changes to damage modifiers, stats (conjured weapon bonuses), vulnerability fluctuation etc. to find a more average EP wouldn’t be enough. Completely different builds will have different weapon strengths, skill coefficients, max targets etc. You’d need to work out the damage for a full rotation with each build in a given scenario, then divide it by the time taken to execute it to find the DPS, and compare those figures. I do agree that a more accurate standard would be useful, though.

EP works okay only if you use same weapons and same rotations. You cannot use it to compare builds using different weapons or different rotations.

As a matter of fact, Keys and I are both working with DPS calculators.
Here is mine:
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B88y8fHnpBfZRnJRdVNqVC1MYXc&usp=sharing

For those who do not have excel or can not open my calculator, here is what it says:

Damage comparison between S/F+LH (30/10/10/20/0) and D/F (30/30/10/0/0) for human-sized single targets => D/F wins by at least 7%.

This means that even if you had 6 might stacks less (two blasts) then D/F would still be superior in DPS.
D/F is even more superior if you take into account:

• Bosses are often against walls. This allows for Burning Speed trail stacking. It is the equivalent of adding a burning Fire Grab to the effect of Burning Speed blast (so every 13s).
• One more utility slot available. You can use it for Ice Bow or Glyph of Storms to deal a lot of additional damage.
• Stronger defensive capabilities. Allowing you to deal damage instead of dodging.

That being said I am not drawing any conclusion apart from that Anierna should stop being so arrogant now. As far as speedclearing is concerned my results are not that relevant. Each build has its uses. I highly advise readers to keep on following the advice of renowned speedrunners such as DeKeys, Dub or Haviz.

My apologies if this message sounds angry. I was at ease until Anierna came to irritate me. I had to retaliate. Now we shall have peace

Zelyhn.8069:

For those who do not have excel or can not open my calculator, here is what it says:

Damage comparison between S/F+LH (30/10/10/20/0) and D/F (30/30/10/0/0) for human-sized single targets => D/F wins by at least 7%.

This means that even if you had 6 might stacks less (two blasts) then D/F would still be superior in DPS.
D/F is even more superior if you take into account:

• Bosses are often against walls. This allows for Burning Speed trail stacking. It is the equivalent of adding a burning Fire Grab to the effect of Burning Speed blast (so every 13s).
• One more utility slot available. You can use it for Ice Bow or Glyph of Storms to deal a lot of additional damage.
• Stronger defensive capabilities. Allowing you to deal damage instead of dodging

Your calculator looks nice. Very detailed, although the length put me off wanting to read it lol. Mine are much shorter and to the point, but then I don’t post what I make =P.

Don’t get me wrong, not only do I not like using lightning hammer, I know that if you can assume the same might stacks (or even if you take two eles to reach 25 stacks combined), that other builds will have more DPS. I know my D/D speed build when I used to run PVE with my ele often (also 30/30/10/0/0, probably the same traits as your D/F) has more DPS than SF+LH 25/10/10/25/0. That’s for AoE and single target both. I told Anie this too, actually, but she acts like the very mention of D/D for speed runs is a crime! It wouldn’t be the first time she’s denied something I’ve said, then realised it was right some weeks later though >:D.

I also agree about the survivability. I’ve also used focus off hand sometimes for the projectile protection, although it’s never been my… ‘main’ offhand weapon. Using dagger main hand is in itself additional survivability because of that 300 range. Ele was my first class and I never really appreciated that range until I played thief lol.

As for an extra utility slot.. true, or you could still take lightning hammer but discard it after casting, and let someone like a mesmer use the one on the ground. That way you’d still benefit from the blast finishers in fire fields and blinds. I say mesmer because I know they can stack at least about a 31% damage modifier through traits for mantras and phantasms, which is more than most classes, but their auto attacks have low skill coefficients to make up for the phantasm damage. By using the lightning hammer, which has higher coefficients than most of their abilities, they would boost their own damage and in so doing, boost the group’s overall damage. That is, in theory – I don’t play mesmer nor am I interested in the class, so there could be something important I’m overlooking =P.

Zelyhn.8069:

As a matter of fact, Keys and I are both working with DPS calculators.
Here is mine:
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B88y8fHnpBfZRnJRdVNqVC1MYXc&usp=sharing

DE has not posted DPS and/or EP calcs for each build in her guide. I just checked.

You only just posted your DPS comparison now, so I will need time to check it. I didn’t realize I needed DPS calcs for each of my builds (I thought EP was good enough), but since it seems you require them for better comparisons, I will create DPS calcs for each of my builds. I will get to it this weekend.

Hold off on your “D/F wins by at least 7%” until I’ve actually checked it. It could be correct (that’s a possibility), but I doubt it is.

Well my dear Anierna it looks like the weekend is over

You will not be able to prove me wrong.
I don’t need you to calculate anything by the way, all I require is respect for the people who actually try to help this community improve.

Just so you know my calculator has been published around 5 months ago. Since then DeKeys joined me and thanks to her awesome work we’ve been able to achieve a level of detail unmatched by other classes’ theorycrafters. She has also built her own – very accurate – DPS calculator.

We have been able to push our expertise so far only because we collaborate a lot. No one is perfect and we all make mistakes. But we have no consideration for ego.

You could have been accepted as a trusted theorycrafter but instead you decided to antagonise everyone. You remember those two arrogant posts you made in my thread? I do. And I am going to use your own nauseating words here:

The issue I have with Anierna’s guide is that there is no disclaimer in “LARGE FONT” that says something like “This build does less damage than a D/F build, and it extremely limited in many aspects as well” That is REALLY important information, and something that she ought to have put up-front so readers won’t miss it.

Now, if you are ready to put your ego aside, then surely we can find a way to work together. In the end, the community getting better is the only thing that matters.

If it turns out that d/f is actually better, I will add the build to the guide and add something to the opening disclaimer until I’ve gotten the addition ready.

I calculated actual DPS for some of my LH builds, but ran out of time before I could get to all of them or the d/f build. Other ingame things took priority; I had to get a new TeamSpeak channel for the guild, scrounge up over a thousand gold for influence for guild upgrades, and fit in not only my nightly 4 hours of dungeons (which sometimes aren’t as smooth as the other group’s because I take the trial members with me), but also Lupi mentoring for someone who got my name off the Dungeon Mentors thread/guild. I was unusually busy, and did not plan out everything as well as I normally do.

As I view it, since you’re the only one who’s provided data, that data is correct until proven wrong. You can be sure that I will get around to providing my own data soon. I can’t just leave you unchallenged, can I?

Zelyhn.8069:

...

There are a few things. You’re not using her exact rotation in the LH sheet. Changing it increases the DPS a little (still excluding the arcane skills). I also modified the D/F rotation a tad to fit the cool down of burning speed to squeeze out a bit more DPS.

From what I can tell you’re using an average modifier rather than applying the modifier to each individual skill in order to jump straight to the DPS. Calculating the damage of each skill individually and dividing that by the elapsed time is more accurate. I added three additional columns to do this (modifier, damage (non-crit), average damage (incl. crits)):

...cut... Excel formulas don’t appear very nicely on the forums lol.
Edit again: Formulas here http://pastebin.com/NLJNAtA1

I summed the average damage for each skill and divided it by the summed elapsed time. In these columns I manually set the different modifiers based on the attunement, set the weapon strength to 969 for lightning hammer attacks (roughly the average - I believe the range is about 918-1020, however while I’ve calculated for 918, I’ve only calculated for as high as 1016 using the coefficients provided by the wiki), and included the 180 precision and 5% crit damage buffs while lightning hammer is equipped. I was also mindful about the modifiers column for D/F, and was sure to account for when you might swap during lightning whip, crit, hit a skill and then change back to air to get the 10% modifier on the stronger coefficient.

I changed D/F’s burning precision to internal fire for a fair comparison, and factored that in to the modifiers column too. I left out bolt to the heart for both. The DPS results I got were:
* SFLH: 13,915
* DF: 10,071