Guild Wars 2

Lorat.1085:

And those are the only combo finishers eles get from their staff, they are still sorely lacking. And they don’t have a field under earth
Attunement timers means you cant use your finishers with your own field more than every 10.5 seconds (assuming maxed profession talent, 15 without)

So, how many professions have both multiple field types and finisher moves in the same weapon bar? Exactly.

It’s something that many of you just don’t seem to get: attunement swapping isn’t a gimmick. It’s the core mechanic of the class. You don’t HAVE to use it, but in order to get the most out of your class, you’ll have to. Just like how a ranger can do ok without their pet, but the game is designed on the assumption that they do.

The earth finishers are designed in such a way that you can place an Eruption, switch to fire, get a blast finisher, switch to air/water to another field, and then back to earth to shoot projectiles through it.

There is nothing wrong with that. We don’t need earth fields and we don’t need more finishers.

Well Im just happy its UP and hopefully get buffs rather than it being OP and nerfed. Not having another bright Wizard fiasco

Sorry for truncating your replies, I’m just trying to scrape under the post limit.

TWMagimay.9057:

And warriors get content?

When a Warrior presses F1, he get an effect. When the Ele presses F1, he only “switches weapons.” Again, I’m merely trying to be thorough. I’m not saying this is a broken mechanic.

TWMagimay.9057:

But it also doesn’t mean hammer is not a great tool.

It is a great tool. But not for whittling.

The staff is a great weapon. But it’s suboptimal for small fights. Much like how the Thief probably wants to switch from Shortbow to D/D when things get up close and personal. Some Thief players may like the Shortbow enough to not switch, but it’s still suboptimal.

TWMagimay.9057:

For me the low dmg is not a “trade-off”. … The problem is, people expect ele to be a nuker(maybe at some point that were true), but it’s more of a support-dmg hybrid which, ofc, means subpar dps.

…. Which is a trade-off. Every profession can go DPS, Control, or Support, but the Attunement system offers the ability to switch between spheres more fluidly. And we have subpar damage as a result. Again, I’m not saying this is inherently bad (it would be nice if had the option of specializing like everyone else, but that’s probably not mechanically feasible), I’m saying it’s another cost to add to the list.

TWMagimay.9057:

Ermmm, yeah, mesmer gets reduced cd on shatter skills instead…doesn’t sound particularly “more special” to me somehow…

Weapon swaps are a close analogy to Attunements, and Mesmers get a lower base weapon swap cooldown. They don’t need to spend points for that.

TWMagimay.9057:

And warrior still has only one field.

Which means their abilities don’t have their power tied up in the idea that they can start combos. Having a combo field and being unable to proc it is worse than not having a combo field because it means that skill has less of something else as a result (or it’s an overpowered skill).

TWMagimay.9057:

Doesn’t sound bad to me, when you consider that a mesmer with 6 fields can only have 2 finishers(leap) at best. Or 5 fields, 3 finishers(2 leap, 1 blast).

Because the Ele’s finishers and fields are in different Attunements, making use of them all becomes highly impractical, if not sometimes impossible. A Mesmer with both a combo field and a combo finisher can combo whenever they’re off cooldown, but the Elementalist needs to work around his attunement cooldowns as well. It’s an additional impediment for a class with so much power in its ability to create fields.

TWMagimay.9057:

Which would be the…class design….

The problem is, you actually lose versatility if you aren’t given the reasonable option to stay in one attunement. I can’t just say “This situation calls for DPS, so I’ll just keep throwing out Fire spells until the situation changes.” Our abnormally long cooldowns fight that sort of choice, because you’ll be stuck throwing dinky Fireballs for awhile. But if you switch attunements, you’re locked out of your DPS for potentially even longer.

Being versatile means having the capability to adapt well to a situation. The Ele is inherently versatile because of Attunements, but then this versatility is eroded in various other ways (higher Attunement swap cooldown, higher weapon skill cooldowns, less ready access to finishers, a reduced ability to switch between short and long range, etc).

TWMagimay.9057:

And I wouldn’t say ele autoattacks are that bad… I mean, they are autoattacks after all, all of them are pretty meh, for all classes.

Not really. I can finish mobs off with my Thief’s autoattacks pretty easily, and the same with my Engineer (and my new Necro, it would appear). If my other skills are on cooldown or I just don’t feel like pushing buttons, I can usually auto someone to death. Try that with an Ele and it’ll take forever to kill anything.

TWMagimay.9057:

Why is it rude?

Because my preferences are not at issue here. I am making a claim about the Elementalist and you are trying to make a claim about me.

ThiBash.5634:

The earth finishers are designed in such a way that you can place an Eruption, switch to fire, get a blast finisher, switch to air/water to another field, and then back to earth to shoot projectiles through it.

Except the long Attunement Swap cooldown fights you on this. It also means you can only produce combos if you’re ok leaving whatever Attunement had the Field. What if I want to combo my Lava Font, but I still need to be in DPS mode? I could switch to Earth for the combo finisher, but then my DPS takes a nosedive for 9-12 seconds. It’s a decision at odds with itself.

Which is why I liked the blast finishers on EA. It meant you could decide between safety and DPS or utility, rather than DPS and DPS or utility and utility.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Except the long Attunement Swap cooldown fights you on this. It also means you can only produce combos if you’re ok leaving whatever Attunement had the Field. What if I want to combo my Lava Font, but I still need to be in DPS mode? I could switch to Earth for the combo finisher, but then my DPS takes a nosedive for 9-12 seconds. It’s a decision at odds with itself.

Which is why I liked the blast finishers on EA. It meant you could decide between safety and DPS or utility, rather than DPS and DPS or utility and utility.

So your main issue isn’t that combo system doesn’t work, it’s the fact that you have to sacrifice some dps to do so? That’s basically a ‘have your cake and eat it too’ problem. If you want an effect like that, you could switch to scepter/focus, or use Arcane Wave/Blast.

TWMagimay.9057:

Lorat.1085:

Well, first, it would be 15 extra skills, first off.

First off, other classes have 10 weapon skills, ele has 20. 20-10=10, not 15. And what F1 skill has no limitations? Or what class has no limitation on weapon change? Yeah, that.

Reread your original post and make up your mind. Just make up your mind and stick with one standard, its not a big deal

1 extra skill per weapon is content but 20 extra skills per weapon isn’t?!

I was going more for…it’s a different playstyle. Neither is by default worse or better. What staff lacks in dmg, it more than makes up for with kiting ability.

Entirely true and I am completely in agreement. Part of what makes the kiting so good is the range of the staff. What if you are in a situation where that doesnt matter? Every other class can switch, a thief from shortbow (ranged kiting) to d/d (damage), a warrior from rifle to great sword, and adjust the range and style of fighting somewhat with the weapon switch. Elementalists cant, if youre using a staff, youre using a staff. It might make more sense to think of it in the other direction, if you are using d/d, and you decide you want to scoot back for a few seconds, you cant. Well, you can, but not and deal damage. Ele is the only class with this limitation.

Precisely the bolded part. For one, support is not just healing(seriously, I wonder what kind of healers you all played with till now). I can support my party by slowing down/immobilizing/blinding/stunning a mob/boss/group of mobs.

You have constantly referred to your elementalist as a healer. No one on this thread has said support is healing only. Considering there is no real healing in this game, i doubt anyone playing it things support is healing only.

That’d be your opinion, not a fact. Who’s to say that shatter cd isn’t too long to begin with and the trait line is just fixing a design flaw? You? Or another person not from the dev team?

Absolutely no one. Where as a ton of people hate the attunement cooldown and it seems most builds use talents points to deal with it. Probably a solid indicator of something.

Oh, so it’s ok to force the warrior into using longbow and banners as utility skills, but it’s not ok to force the ele into using anything, right? Ele must have access to everything, instantly without any limitations or it’s a broken class?

Force the eles to use what? Seriously, I’m assuming you have arcane wave all the time, what else can you force them to take? They don’t even have access to abilities to make them to take.

Why is it awful? And how is it any more awful than having 1 blast finisher only?

Warriors have more than 1 blast finisher, and 3 projectile finishers on the longbow. Which I think is what you are getting at? Its a waste to plan around the projectile finishers (yay! 1 second of burning!) when using them requires attunement switching.
You can use multiple finishers with 1 field, you cannot use multiple fields with a single finisher. Overlapping fire fields wont grant you 6 stacks of might.
A warrior could fire the fire arrow, the exploding arrow, call down a banner, pick it up, and put it down again for 9 stacks.

An ele could place a fire field, switch to earth, using eruption, use arcane power, for 6 stacks.

The both can repeat for 6 more stacks, the warrior every 10 seconds, the ele every 20.

The warrior can take a shout to give another 3 stacks and fury every 25 seconds

The ele is all tapped out (short of going full aura sharing)

Ah, so the whole dmg argument is retracted. Good, we agree ele dmg is just fine.

um, what? We certainly dont agree, ele damage is pitiful.

Oh, this is funny. Especially the part where warrior long bow(you know, the warrior mandatory weapon according to you) takes 1min40s. .

You said staff ele auto attacks were as good as others, they are all near the bottom of this list.

An argument without support, sure. But how can an opinion be invalid? It’s based on smb’s personal belief, not on facts. You can view an opinion as invalid, because it contradicts your opinion, but that doesn’t make it invalid.

No, opnions can be invalid. For example, your belief that I said longbows were required would be invalid, because you cant logically draw that conclusion from what I’ve said. Likewise, if I had said that, believing the low ranking of the longbow auto attack (its true, it sucks) proved me wrong wouldn’t be a valid conclusion to draw, because most players dont go around only using the auto attack.

MrButtermancer.1624:

6: No weapon swap. Hear me out. Every other class can modify their effective range…

I’ll address this part.

You are completely correct. Every other profession can use weapon swapping to have multiple ranges at their disposal. They can take a melee weapon and a long-range weapon for flexibility. You cannot do that. This means that other professions have far more in-combat flexibility in terms of engagement range.

However, you get something to balance that off. At whatever range you choose, you have all the tools. No matter what your weapon set, attunements mean that you always have a large variety of tools at your disposal.

On professions, however, are limited in what tools they take. Each weapon will only fulfill a couple of roles. For example, let’s look at a Thief (the class I know best). Let’s stay you’re stereotypical, so you have dagger/dagger. As an offset, you want a ranged option, so you go for shortbow.

This means that they have engagement range flexibility. They can fight at 130 range (D/D) or 900 range (SB). However, their role flexibility is extremely limited.

Dagger/Dagger:

• 130": Strong single-target direct damage
• 450": Leap finisher, execution damage
• 600": AoE Cripple
• 300": AoE Bleeding
• 130": Stealth

Shortbow:

• 900"-1200": Strong AoE damage
• 900": Ranged AoE Poison (Poison field)
• 1200": Ranged Blast finishers
• 900": Ranged single-target Cripple
• 900": Shadowstep

Combine the two, and they get lots of melee/range flexibilty. They’ve got good single-target in melee and good AoE damage (meaning weak single-target) at range, with some utility from poison fields, blast finishers, stealth, and shadowstepping.

Let’s compare to a D/D Elementalist.

Fire:

• 400": Single-target damage
• 400": Strong Burning (cone AoE)
• 240": AoE burning and damage (Fire field) (x2)
• 600": Forward dash
• 400": Single-target burst

Water:

• 600": Weak single-target damage, vulnerability
• 0": Self-healing
• 240": AoE healing and condition removal
• 240": AoE Chill
• 0": Chill aura

Air:

• 300": Strong single-target damage
• 300": Weakenss (cone AoE)
• 0": Stun aura
• 1200": Forward dash
• 180": AoE knockback, self Swiftness

Earth:

• 300": Single-target bleeding
• 240": AoE bleeding
• 900": Self-pull, immobilize
• 240": AoE knockdown, Blast finisher
• 360": AoE massive burst, bleeding, cripple, Blast finisher

So, let’s compare the two. Thief gets one weapon for high single-target damage and stealth, with some moderate AoE bleeding. We get another weapon for high ranged AoE damage, from poison, bleeding, and direct damage, as well as utility from shadowsteps and a spammable (ish) blast finisher. However, the thief is lacking any form of control beyond cripple and has no self-healing. In addition, our AoE damage at melee range is very weak, and our single-target damage at long range is extremely lacking.

Contrast that with the elementalist. Other than a couple of skills used to close gaps, the majority of your damage is 300-400". You have no real options to do anything at range, other than get closer. You’re useless against anything on a wall. However, you have a wide variety of melee range tools. You get several hard controls (knockdown, knockback, stun aura). You get lots of chill application, as well as a ranged immobilize. You can do high AoE damage from both conditions and direct damage. You get high single-target damage from both conditions and direct damage, with great burst (on a long cooldown). You get two healing skills, one of which is AoE and removes conditions.

The thief is left with several gaps in their build (control, healing, condition removal), which they’ll have to fill with traits or slot skills. Your weapons give you all of the basic tools you need (single-target/AoE, direct/condition, control, healing, condition removal, gap closers) and you merely enhance whichever facets you want to focus on with traits.

…

I don’t think that your system is bad. It’s definitely different, but that’s okay. Classes are supposed to be different. You get pros (tons of flexibility within your chosen range) to match the cons (lack of range flexibility). I see that as an okay thing. Even though a D/D elementalist is useless at long range, they’re an absolute beast in melee.

ThiBash.5634:

Lorat.1085:

And those are the only combo finishers eles get from their staff, they are still sorely lacking. And they don’t have a field under earth
Attunement timers means you cant use your finishers with your own field more than every 10.5 seconds (assuming maxed profession talent, 15 without)

So, how many professions have both multiple field types and finisher moves in the same weapon bar? Exactly.

Well, thieves have both finishers and fields on their shortbows and p/p
Warriors, of course, have the longbow.
Mesmers have the staff, for a field/leap combo.

Those are the only classes I’ve played (and the ele of course) so Im guessing on the rest.

Necros have the staff
Engineers have the elixer gun
Guardian has mace/focus
ranger has sword/torch

So….all of them?

It’s something that many of you just don’t seem to get: attunement swapping isn’t a gimmick. It’s the core mechanic of the class. You don’t HAVE to use it, but in order to get the most out of your class, you’ll have to. Just like how a ranger can do ok without their pet, but the game is designed on the assumption that they do.

The earth finishers are designed in such a way that you can place an Eruption, switch to fire, get a blast finisher, switch to air/water to another field, and then back to earth to shoot projectiles through it.

There is nothing wrong with that. We don’t need earth fields and we don’t need more finishers.

I think everyone understands that attunement change is required to play even moderately effectively as an elementalist. Thats the problem – the time change is so high, 15 seconds, you have to invest in the talent tree to make that more manageable, because the class requires that you use attunement switching. Basically, instead of using trait points to customize our character, we have to use them to compensate for kitteny balancing. The combo you mentioned? It would take 15 seconds before you were back firing earth projectile finishers with no talent points invested.

In forming an effective party, the poor damage means that support is the only real role, but the inability of elementists to combo their own fields reliably means they are subpar at that as well. They can supply fields, but others have got to finish them

Blaine Tog.8304:

Sorry for truncating your replies, I’m just trying to scrape under the post limit.

I’ve been struggling with it all day TT_TT

When a Warrior presses F1, he get an effect.

Not an effect, but a skill. One skill. But my point was that it’s really not that much more. Necro…yeah, I’d call that an effect. Warrior and mesmer? No, not really better(possibly even worse).

The staff is a great weapon.

I truly enjoy staff and prefer it in every situation except running around to gather(one with air + rtl = now you see me, now you don’t). Sure, single target dps is lower, but the survival is higher. Mobs won’t run away from you(they generally tend to do the opposite), so all the gap closers on daggers become more of selfstuns. And staff allows me to have more skills running at the same time….

[quot]…. Which is a trade-off. Every profession can go DPS, Control, or Support, but the Attunement system offers the ability to switch between spheres more fluidly. And we have subpar damage as a result. Again, I’m not saying this is inherently bad (it would be nice if had the option of specializing like everyone else, but that’s probably not mechanically feasible), I’m saying it’s another cost to add to the list.[/quote]

But we do have that option. Most people just don’t take it. And the attunements just make every build a bit more than what it is. Yes, it’s a trade-off in that sense, but I wouldn’t call it a bad one.

Weapon swaps are a close analogy to Attunements, and Mesmers get a lower base weapon swap cooldown. They don’t need to spend points for that.

But the trait line is for shatter cd. Which means that the devs decided shatter cd = attunement cd.

[quot]Which means their abilities don’t have their power tied up in the idea that they can start combos. Having a combo field and being unable to proc it is worse than not having a combo field because it means that skill has less of something else as a result (or it’s an overpowered skill).[/quote]

But warriors have a ton of finishers. How is it any different? Ele has a field s/he can’t finish, warrior has a finisher with no field…

Because the Ele’s finishers and fields are in different Attunements, making use of them all becomes highly impractical, if not sometimes impossible. A Mesmer with both a combo field and a combo finisher can combo whenever they’re off cooldown, but the Elementalist needs to work around his attunement cooldowns as well. It’s an additional impediment for a class with so much power in its ability to create fields.

It just means you need to put a bit of planning when you swap attunements and what combos you want to get off. For th rest….your party helps a lot.

The problem is, you actually lose versatility if you aren’t given the reasonable option to stay in one attunement. I can’t just say “This situation calls for DPS, so I’ll just keep throwing out Fire spells until the situation changes.” Our abnormally long cooldowns fight that sort of choice, because you’ll be stuck throwing dinky Fireballs for awhile. But if you switch attunements, you’re locked out of your DPS for potentially even longer.

Well, that’s why we have different attunements that can provide us different aspects. Dps is not limited to fire only(earth can rock some good dmg too) and support isn’t limited to water either(earth and air can aid as well). Also, you can stick to a certain attunement if needed. Nobody said you have to blow all your cds all the time….

Not really. I can finish mobs off with my Thief’s autoattacks pretty easily, and the same with my Engineer (and my new Necro, it would appear). If my other skills are on cooldown or I just don’t feel like pushing buttons, I can usually auto someone to death. Try that with an Ele and it’ll take forever to kill anything.

I often get lazy and just go with staff fire 1 till things die. It takes longer, but I’m being lazy, why would I care xD

Because my preferences are not at issue here. I am making a claim about the Elementalist and you are trying to make a claim about me.

But your claim is based on your personal preferences. You are not stating universal facts, you are expressing your opinion of the class. A class I enjoy in every possible way thus disagree with you. I’ve seen broken, underdeveloped and generally UP classes. Ele ain’t one of them. And since you seem to like other classes, I find it pretty obvious that ele simply isn’t a match for you. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that…except that you actually take it as an insult…which is weird….

ThiBash.5634:

So your main issue isn’t that combo system doesn’t work, it’s the fact that you have to sacrifice some dps to do so? That’s basically a ‘have your cake and eat it too’ problem. If you want an effect like that, you could switch to scepter/focus, or use Arcane Wave/Blast.

No. My issue with the elementalist’s combo finisher setup is that cross-attunement combos are often a trap.

I liked Evasive Arcana finishers because they forced a decision point between safety and DPS/Utility (depending on the combo). You give up some energy and have to get very close (so you’re less safe), but you get something valuable in return (a combo). That’s an interesting decision between two disparate things.

However, cross-attunement combos often make you choose between DPS and DPS or Utility and Utility. For example, let’s say you want to make use of Fire 2 with Earth 1 for the burning. You can do that and it sounds rather clever, but it’s actually strictly a mistake. You get the combo, but now you’re locked out of your best damage skills for upwards of 12 seconds. Or let’s say you’re trying to heal your team. You’d better hope you’re not already in Water because if you are, you can’t pull off an Earth 2 + Water 3 combo unless you switch out of water, wait 12 seconds, then switch to Earth. Taking advantage of that healing requires you to lock yourself out of healing for 12 seconds first.

Now this problem is masked somewhat by continuous attunement dancing since you can plan ahead. “We’re taking some damage so I’m going to stop throwing Lava Fonts and make a quick stop in Earth before tossing my whole Water kit.” It’s still an impediment to clutch combos in times when you can’t plan three attunements ahead (like, if you’re already trying to heal with Water — maybe your party needed the condition removal from Healing Rain right now and the Champion foe followed it up with a big AoE burst skill), one that Evasive Arcana let us neatly dodge over (hur hur).

Dacromir.6207:

MrButtermancer.1624:

6: No weapon swap. Hear me out. Every other class can modify their effective range…

However, you get something to balance that off. At whatever range you choose, you have all the tools. No matter what your weapon set, attunements mean that you always have a large variety of tools at your disposal.

On professions, however, are limited in what tools they take. Each weapon will only fulfill a couple of roles. For example, let’s look at a Thief (the class I know best). Let’s stay you’re stereotypical, so you have dagger/dagger. As an offset, you want a ranged option, so you go for shortbow.

This means that they have engagement range flexibility. They can fight at 130 range (D/D) or 900 range (SB). However, their role flexibility is extremely limited.

So, let’s compare the two. Thief gets one weapon for high single-target damage and stealth, with some moderate AoE bleeding. We get another weapon for high ranged AoE damage, from poison, bleeding, and direct damage, as well as utility from shadowsteps and a spammable (ish) blast finisher. However, the thief is lacking any form of control beyond cripple and has no self-healing. In addition, our AoE damage at melee range is very weak, and our single-target damage at long range is extremely lacking.

Contrast that with the elementalist. Other than a couple of skills used to close gaps, the majority of your damage is 300-400". You have no real options to do anything at range, other than get closer. You’re useless against anything on a wall. However, you have a wide variety of melee range tools. You get several hard controls (knockdown, knockback, stun aura). You get lots of chill application, as well as a ranged immobilize. You can do high AoE damage from both conditions and direct damage. You get high single-target damage from both conditions and direct damage, with great burst (on a long cooldown). You get two healing skills, one of which is AoE and removes conditions.

The thief is left with several gaps in their build (control, healing, condition removal), which they’ll have to fill with traits or slot skills. Your weapons give you all of the basic tools you need (single-target/AoE, direct/condition, control, healing, condition removal, gap closers) and you merely enhance whichever facets you want to focus on with traits.

…

I don’t think that your system is bad. It’s definitely different, but that’s okay. Classes are supposed to be different. You get pros (tons of flexibility within your chosen range) to match the cons (lack of range flexibility). I see that as an okay thing. Even though a D/D elementalist is useless at long range, they’re an absolute beast in melee.

A few things
- d/d and shortbow thieves can use initiative to dodge, and with endurance, dodge continuously. The lack of conditional removal is more than compensated for by the ability to avoid getting inflicted with conditions.
- both classes need a healing skill for healing. Water healing is a really tiny bandaid.
-You have a 3 second chill skill on a 15 second cooldown. Frost aura requires you get hit. Not a good deal.
- A lot of ele skills suck, frankly. Im not sure where I was going with that, but every time I look though the 20 skills for a weapon setup, I seem to think “man, this blows” about half.
-Churning earth requires your incredibly fragile character to stand within hitting distance without moving for just over 3 seconds
-The condition removal is 1 every 40 seconds. That barely qualifies.
-You do have a bunch of knockdowns, but against bosses/tougher mobs, those arent that useful. It basically takes 5 to get 1 interrupt.
-Cluster bomb is the best blast finisher in the game. Maybe the best finisher. You can just stand in a field, aim at your feet, and cast area _ 5 times.
-Thief damage is better. Significant Id bet, though I have no numbers to back it up.
-Thief has more survivability, just because of the ease of dodging, and the ability to move twice as far from an enemy while attacking.
-Thief has more utility value. This is harder to measure, but 5 blast finishers, 1 after another, every 20 seconds? It cant make many fields, but it can finish a hellovalot better, and thats much harder to find.
-Initiative is the most unique profession mechanical, and it completely changes how the thief plays compared to other classes. 1 really good ability makes a weapon worth it, cause others just leach off your initiative.

Basically everyone I notice weapon switching has a short/long range combo, mesmers being the exception. Actually, I have no idea what rangers/necros and engineers do in that regard (can engineers even switch? they have like 3 total options, r, p/p, p/s) But of ones I’ve noticed, three of four go short/long

Lorat.1085:

ThiBash.5634:

So, how many professions have both multiple field types and finisher moves in the same weapon bar?

all of them?

They have single fields yes. Not multiple types. And how many of the weapons that create combo fields are actually dps weapons? Just about all weapon choices are about choosing between roles. The elementalist is less restricted in this but not to the point where they can do everything and not get penalized for it in some way.

Lorat.1085:

I think everyone understands that attunement change is required to play even moderately effectively as an elementalist. Thats the problem – the time change is so high, 15 seconds, you have to invest in the talent tree to make that more manageable, because the class requires that you use attunement switching. Basically, instead of using trait points to customize our character, we have to use them to compensate for kitteny balancing.

In forming an effective party, the poor damage means that support is the only real role, but the inability of elementists to combo their own fields reliably means they are subpar at that as well. They can supply fields, but others have got to finish them

But that’s the thing: you don’t NEED to finish your own combos in a team. You have your team to do that for you. You don’t have to switch if you deem it to be suboptimal at that point.

Blaine Tog.8304:

However, cross-attunement combos often make you choose between DPS and DPS or Utility and Utility.

The thing is, I get the feeling you’re looking at this the wrong way. The staff elementalist isn’t about dps to begin with. It’s about combining utility with damage, not to be the top damage dealer. The various combos are about doing just that. Combining Lava Font with stoning increases the effective dps of your stoning skill to the point where you can apply weakness to a target without losing the dps that fireball gives. Combining Eruption with Geyser allows you to damage a foe while also healing your melee allies that are standing next to them. That’s how I view the staff at any rate, mixing multiple types of effects rather than focusing on a single thing.

TWMagimay.9057:

But we do have that option. Most people just don’t take it. And the attunements just make every build a bit more than what it is. Yes, it’s a trade-off in that sense, but I wouldn’t call it a bad one.

Other professions can specialize to a greater extent than Elementalists. If they want to spec for solid DPS or solid Control or solid Support, they can do that better than us because we will always have a bunch of power tied up in our attunements, and all of our weapons have a strong blend of options.

It doesn’t have to be a bad trade-off to be a trade-off. My argument isn’t that these costs are onerous individually but that we’re paying one too many times.

TWMagimay.9057:

But warriors have a ton of finishers. How is it any different? Ele has a field s/he can’t finish, warrior has a finisher with no field…

I’m inclined to think there’s less power tied up in finisher skills than in fields, but that’s debatable. I’m also inclined to

TWMagimay.9057:

Well, that’s why we have different attunements that can provide us different aspects. Dps is not limited to fire only(earth can rock some good dmg too) and support isn’t limited to water either(earth and air can aid as well). Also, you can stick to a certain attunement if needed. Nobody said you have to blow all your cds all the time….

A few things.

1) Yes, different attunements provide versatility, but other factors drag down our versatility. We net greater versatility than other classes, but not so much more as to justify all the costs.

2) DPS in Earth is largely less impressive than DPS in Fire. It’s there, true, but weaker for most weapons (Dagger offhand has some serious damage, to be sure, though it has other drawbacks).

3) An Elementalist sticking to one attunement is worse off than another profession sticking to one weapon. You can hold back on casting spells so they don’t go on cooldown, but then your DPS suffers again.

TWMagimay.9057:

I often get lazy and just go with staff fire 1 till things die. It takes longer, but I’m being lazy, why would I care xD

Because for other professions, it’s a legitimate way to end a combo and not just something to do while lazy.

TWMagimay.9057:

But your claim is based on your personal preferences. You are not stating universal facts, you are expressing your opinion of the class.

I am attempting to state universal facts, as are you. If we weren’t, we couldn’t be having any sort of a discussion at all. We certainly couldn’t in any way disagree with each other (as it’s impossible to disagree with a personal preference), but obviously we do.

TWMagimay.9057:

A class I enjoy in every possible way thus disagree with you. I’ve seen broken, underdeveloped and generally UP classes. Ele ain’t one of them. And since you seem to like other classes, I find it pretty obvious that ele simply isn’t a match for you. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that…except that you actually take it as an insult…which is weird….

I find it rude and presumptuous in the extreme for you to attempt to define my preferences for me. Furthermore, doing such as part of a discussion about a third-party topic is essentially an attempt to muscle me out in a way that doesn’t address my points.

So I’ll put this simply: please stop telling me what I like and what I don’t like. Whether I like the Elementalist or not is irrelevant to whether I’m correct that they’ve been overcharged for the attunement mechanic.

Lorat.1085:

A few things
- d/d and shortbow thieves can use initiative to dodge, and with endurance, dodge continuously. The lack of conditional removal is more than compensated for by the ability to avoid getting inflicted with conditions.
- both classes need a healing skill for healing. Water healing is a really tiny bandaid.
-You have a 3 second chill skill on a 15 second cooldown. Frost aura requires you get hit. Not a good deal.
- A lot of ele skills suck, frankly. Im not sure where I was going with that, but every time I look though the 20 skills for a weapon setup, I seem to think “man, this blows” about half.
-Churning earth requires your incredibly fragile character to stand within hitting distance without moving for just over 3 seconds
-The condition removal is 1 every 40 seconds. That barely qualifies.
-You do have a bunch of knockdowns, but against bosses/tougher mobs, those arent that useful. It basically takes 5 to get 1 interrupt.
-Cluster bomb is the best blast finisher in the game. Maybe the best finisher. You can just stand in a field, aim at your feet, and cast area _ 5 times.
-Thief damage is better. Significant Id bet, though I have no numbers to back it up.
-Thief has more survivability, just because of the ease of dodging, and the ability to move twice as far from an enemy while attacking.
-Thief has more utility value. This is harder to measure, but 5 blast finishers, 1 after another, every 20 seconds? It cant make many fields, but it can finish a hellovalot better, and thats much harder to find.
-Initiative is the most unique profession mechanical, and it completely changes how the thief plays compared to other classes. 1 really good ability makes a weapon worth it, cause others just leach off your initiative.

Basically everyone I notice weapon switching has a short/long range combo, mesmers being the exception. Actually, I have no idea what rangers/necros and engineers do in that regard (can engineers even switch? they have like 3 total options, r, p/p, p/s) But of ones I’ve noticed, three of four go short/long

Then by all means, go play a thief. Most of what you mention here has been adressed several times already. But to sum it up:

Other classes can’t do all, so it’s unreasonable to ask for the elementalist to do all. If you want long lasting conditions, great support or high dps, then you have to pick and spec for it. You can’t have it all in the same build. Not even on the elementalist.

But we do have that option. Most people just don’t take it. And the attunements just make every build a bit more than what it is. Yes, it’s a trade-off in that sense, but I wouldn’t call it a bad one.

Not switching attunement isn’t a real option.

Its like saying you dont need to use utility slots

But the trait line is for shatter cd. Which means that the devs decided shatter cd = attunement cd.

The trait line is for the profession specific mechanic. For elementalists is attunement, for mesmers its shatter, for thieves is steal, for warriors its burst damage. Just beacuse they are profession specific doesnt make them the same.

Which means their abilities don’t have their power tied up in the idea that they can start combos. Having a combo field and being unable to proc it is worse than not having a combo field because it means that skill has less of something else as a result (or it’s an overpowered skill).

But warriors have a ton of finishers. How is it any different? Ele has a field s/he can’t finish, warrior has a finisher with no field…

5 finishers, 1 field = 5 combos.
1 finisher 5 fields = 1 combo.
Which is better?
Fields are all over the place when playing in groups.

But your claim is based on your personal preferences. You are not stating universal facts, you are expressing your opinion of the class. A class I enjoy in every possible way thus disagree with you. I’ve seen broken, underdeveloped and generally UP classes. Ele ain’t one of them. And since you seem to like other classes, I find it pretty obvious that ele simply isn’t a match for you. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that…except that you actually take it as an insult…which is weird….

He offered a coherent argument that was not based on his personal preferences, but was based on observations about the game. You basically said he sucked and his ego was preventing him from seeing that.

ThiBash.5634:

The thing is, I get the feeling you’re looking at this the wrong way. The staff elementalist isn’t about dps to begin with. It’s about combining utility with damage, not to be the top damage dealer. The various combos are about doing just that. Combining Lava Font with stoning increases the effective dps of your stoning skill to the point where you can apply weakness to a target without losing the dps that fireball gives. Combining Eruption with Geyser allows you to damage a foe while also healing your melee allies that are standing next to them. That’s how I view the staff at any rate, mixing multiple types of effects rather than focusing on a single thing.

Oh I know. I was simplifying matters for the sake of clarity. The staff is a generalist long-range weapon, but it needs to be possible to emphasize one sphere of combat over another at any given time, even if there’s still some bleed-over. Otherwise, it wouldn’t be possible to use the weapon tactically. You’d simply throw a continuous homogeneous stream of DPS, control, and support regardless of circumstance. The versatility of the Elementalist is for naught if we don’t have the ability to dynamically adapt to the situation. Having readily-available combo finishers helps increase the responsiveness of the profession to changing circumstances, so you can provide spike healing or DPS even if the opportunity or need to do so presents itself only very narrowly.

It’s very satisfying seeing the payoff from the setup of correctly dancing attunements, but a profession can only have a healthy skillcap if it rewards the ability to read the situation as it unfolds, even in tight timeframes. Obviously combos aren’t the be-all end-all of that, but having them readily available helps with this. It also means you can combo without locking yourself out of most of your attunements (like let’s say you just switched out of Air in S/D because you wanted to make a combo, but you really need Updraft right now to prevent a stomp on one of your teammates).

Blaine Tog.8304:

The versatility of the Elementalist is for naught if we don’t have the ability to dynamically adapt to the situation.

But the thing is, we DO have that ability. It’s just restricted through the attunement system, but there’s probably a good reason for that.

Lorat.1085:

5 finishers, 1 field = 5 combos.
1 finisher 5 fields = 1 combo.
Which is better?
Fields are all over the place when playing in groups.

Quality over quantity. Personally, I prefer the chill from my ice fields over the retaliation caused by guardian fields.

Best would be another class that uses their finishes to proc multiple times on my fields.

But wait, that would mean that…

Then by all means, go play a thief. Most of what you mention here has been adressed several times already. But to sum it up:

Other classes can’t do all, so it’s unreasonable to ask for the elementalist to do all. If you want long lasting conditions, great support or high dps, then you have to pick and spec for it. You can’t have it all in the same build. Not even on the elementalist.

STRAWMAN

I dont want the elementalist to do all. I want it to do something well. No one is complaining because their elementalist isnt doing everything well, or even two things. Attunement and the removal of EA prevents effectivly (read: as well as another class) playing support. An aura ele can hand out fury and swiftness, but not might. Damage isnt as high as other dps classes when specing for it while almost certainly being more fragile.

Except for dropping a variety of fields, the elementalist can do that really well.

ThiBash.5634:

Blaine Tog.8304:

The versatility of the Elementalist is for naught if we don’t have the ability to dynamically adapt to the situation.

But the thing is, we DO have that ability. It’s just restricted through the attunement system, but there’s probably a good reason for that.

Lorat.1085:

5 finishers, 1 field = 5 combos.
1 finisher 5 fields = 1 combo.
Which is better?
Fields are all over the place when playing in groups.

Quality over quantity. Personally, I prefer the chill from my ice fields over the retaliation caused by guardian fields.

Best would be another class that uses their finishes to proc multiple times on my fields.

But wait, that would mean that…

You mean field, right? Cause the elementalist only has one ice field

I agree though! Being able to combo a field multiple times would be quite useful. It would be nice if the elementalist was capable of that. But hey, 1 blast every 15 seconds, and another every 20

Lorat.1085:

STRAWMAN

I dont want the elementalist to do all.

COUNTER-STRAWMAN!

You yourself mention a long list of various kinds of things that specific classes can do better. The reason they are weaker for the elementalist is because they’re all combined on a single profession. That’s also the reason why we cannot combo on all our attunements. Because we have so many different skills. It’s a tradeoff.

But if keeping up your dps while also providing good utility isn’t your goal, then I honestly don’t understand what you’re trying to achieve with this discussion.

Lorat.1085:

You mean field, right? Cause the elementalist only has one ice field

I agree though! Being able to combo a field multiple times would be quite useful. It would be nice if the elementalist was capable of that. But hey, 1 blast every 15 seconds, and another every 20

I meant fields as in casting them multiple times during dungeons runs, so you’re right on that. As for my statement, I meant to say that actively working together as a team negates the need for an elementalist to finish their own fields. A smart thief could, when he sees a water field appear, use his blasts to heal himself to full. he wouldn’t even need my blast.

You know, I could go on the mesmer forum right now and rant about how the class is broken because illusions need to run to your target to shatter, or they lack swiftness, or whatever.

But you know what? All that crap is meaningless. Everyone knows that mesmer is an amazing class in the hands of a skilled player. Same is true with Ele.

All the things you mention in your OP are just little isolated details that are irrelevant when you look at the big picture. And the big picture is that many good D/D Ele PvPers can 1v1 ANY class in the game and win. And not only that, Ele has some of the best group support in the game, so not only can you 1v1 any class and win, you also bring AMAZING support to your group while you’re doing it. There really aren’t many classes that do that…in fact, I can’t think of any.

I think what it boils down to is that many of you here have some preconception of “Wizard” in your head, and Ele doesn’t fit it, so you complain that the class is broken.

The class is not broken, you are playing it wrong.

If you don’t like the playstyle of Ele, then by all means, try another class.

just an idea about problem with range/weapon swapping: Change conjures to be an upgrade to the attunement skill sets, but each weapon replaces its element on the bar – attunement swap – but also buffs the base skills on the other attunements.
EG: if you equip frostbow, your water attunement is now switching to frostbow skills(5s cd base?), but having the bow active also has some passive increase, like increasing the base range of your other attunement skills/increasing stats like they do now, that is you can freely switch to your other attunements without losing the conjure; flame axe > fire etc

Creslin.1758:

I think what it boils down to is that many of you here have some preconception of “Wizard” in your head, and Ele doesn’t fit it, so you complain that the class is broken.

I would thank you not to tell me what’s in my head. I very much doubt you know me better than I know myself, considering I’ve spent more time with me than you have.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Creslin.1758:

I think what it boils down to is that many of you here have some preconception of “Wizard” in your head, and Ele doesn’t fit it, so you complain that the class is broken.

I would thank you not to tell me what’s in my head. I very much doubt you know me better than I know myself, considering I’ve spent more time with me than you have.

I am sure that not everyone who reads my statement will think that lol. I was responding to the people that flat out said this, like the OP.

Regardless though, I can tell you that if you think the Ele is broken, for whatever reason…you are wrong .

Creslin.1758:

Regardless though, I can tell you that if you think the Ele is broken, for whatever reason…you are wrong .

I don’t think the profession is broken, but I do think it’s a bit off. A few numbers tweaks (sliiiiightly more damage, a bit more health, lower base cooldown on attunement swapping) and blast finishers back to EA with a 10 second global cooldown and I think we’d be in a good place. Not perfect, but no profession is perfect from what I can tell. Everyone needs bug fixes, everyone has useless skills and traits, everyone needs at least two or three more options for Elite skills.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Creslin.1758:

Regardless though, I can tell you that if you think the Ele is broken, for whatever reason…you are wrong .

I don’t think the profession is broken, but I do think it’s a bit off. A few numbers tweaks (sliiiiightly more damage, a bit more health, lower base cooldown on attunement swapping) and blast finishers back to EA with a 10 second global cooldown and I think we’d be in a good place. Not perfect, but no profession is perfect from what I can tell. Everyone needs bug fixes, everyone has useless skills and traits, everyone needs at least two or three more options for Elite skills.

Exactly, no class is perfect right now. I will agree that the EA nerf was dumb, and our fire trait line could definitely use some work.

Despite this though, I think that Ele’s are one of the better classes. I know that some of the folks I play with complain about the ridiculous amount of CC and survivability that D/D Eles have, despite our low HP pool. And I think this survivability is due to all the escape, condition removal, and healing abilities we have.

I know in a fight you will see my guardian friend’s health go down rarely, but only jump up a few times. Mine on the other hand, is CONSTANTLY going down and up. So it’s like, we’re both very survivable, but in different ways. I honestly think that if you gave Eles more HP, it would be imbalanced.

For the elementalist there are weapons which favour team gameplay (i.e. DE and WvW) and solo (PvE and PvP).

And that’s D/D except for siege and dungeonbosses that are impossible to meele.

D/D provides higher damage, is easier (possible) to hit moving tagets, has better CC and better support with an aurabuild.

I don’t say Elementalists are bad, but staff, focus and scepter have to be completely changed to have another use than “I can’t reach it with my daggers”.

There are a lot of things that may be deemed off but all in all every class in the game is viable in wv3 spvp and pve. Some have advantages over others in certain departments, some bring in more utility for team play.

If anything think outside the box for builds and what out and try odd combinations. But I will say this though, a lot of people are just a bit short sighted and just see strictly numbers such as damage and hp. A lot of people love going glass cannon builds because they think it’s the only way to be efficient because killing stuff is important.

To be honest, it’s only a small bit of the equation. Think of the elementalist as a Swiss army knife, it can do a lot of things. Why just focus on the knife part when they can do a lot of things. This can be applied to a lot of classes.

But since we are talking about the ele they have one of the best aoe dps, burst dps in the game if spec that way. They can be really efficient healers and can semi tank too. They have the best mobility in the game as well as perhaps the most ways to escape stuns etc. can’t complain much about them.

ThiBash.5634:

They have single fields yes. Not multiple types. And how many of the weapons that create combo fields are actually dps weapons? Just about all weapon choices are about choosing between roles. The elementalist is less restricted in this but not to the point where they can do everything and not get penalized for it in some way.

I thought that was a typo, since no one is asking for multiple fields and multiple finishers on one staff alignment (that would be…four out of five skills devoted to comboing)
Just a combo in the same attunement as a field.

But that’s the thing: you don’t NEED to finish your own combos in a team. You have your team to do that for you. You don’t have to switch if you deem it to be suboptimal at that point.

If all you’re doing is laying down combo fields, your entire character has become about as effective as the warrior longbow burst attack. Slightly more, because one of your fields has some situational utility, in addition to fire.

ThiBash.5634:

COUNTER-STRAWMAN!

You yourself mention a long list of various kinds of things that specific classes can do better. The reason they are weaker for the elementalist is because they’re all combined on a single profession. That’s also the reason why we cannot combo on all our attunements. Because we have so many different skills. It’s a tradeoff.

But if keeping up your dps while also providing good utility isn’t your goal, then I honestly don’t understand what you’re trying to achieve with this discussion.

I mentioned several things 1 build of 1 profession can do better.
No one has said “I wish my ele could do he damage of a warrior while buffing really well, and lets be tanky too” and that seems to be what you are responding too.

Lorat.1085:

You mean field, right? Cause the elementalist only has one ice field

I agree though! Being able to combo a field multiple times would be quite useful. It would be nice if the elementalist was capable of that. But hey, 1 blast every 15 seconds, and another every 20

I meant fields as in casting them multiple times during dungeons runs, so you’re right on that. As for my statement, I meant to say that actively working together as a team negates the need for an elementalist to finish their own fields. A smart thief could, when he sees a water field appear, use his blasts to heal himself to full. he wouldn’t even need my blast.[/quote]

Thats simply not true. Every blast finisher adds something. A comparison: A 4 man team can do fractals working together. Working together negates the need for a fifth one to participate. If the ele was the only class to lay down fields, or others only had rare access to them, that would be a valuable role. But chances are the other 4 members of your party are going to easy access to every field the elementalist might place (except for lightning, that one is unique to the elementalist) and the ele becomes redundant.

Creslin.1758:

You know, I could go on the mesmer forum right now and rant about how the class is broken because illusions need to run to your target to shatter, or they lack swiftness, or whatever.

And you would be completely alone

But you know what? All that crap is meaningless. Everyone knows that mesmer is an amazing class in the hands of a skilled player. Same is true with Ele.

Good players are good!

All the things you mention in your OP are just little isolated details that are irrelevant when you look at the big picture. And the big picture is that many good D/D Ele PvPers can 1v1 ANY class in the game and win. And not only that, Ele has some of the best group support in the game, so not only can you 1v1 any class and win, you also bring AMAZING support to your group while you’re doing it. There really aren’t many classes that do that…in fact, I can’t think of any.

Would suggest reading thread before posting next time

The class is not broken, you are playing it wrong.

If you don’t like the playstyle of Ele, then by all means, try another class.

MrButtermancer.1624:

I HATE that this class is bad because when it comes to these games, I have Wizzard written on my hat and on my heart. And it’s not like I’ve not practiced, or experimented, or that I’m just bad. I love PvP, I play competitive Starcraft. Losing in Starcraft though… it’s FAIR. When you play well, you win by a lot. When you play poorly you get rolled. I can look at what I’ve done wrong and the conclusion is never “my race is underpowered.” I can always DO something to improve. And in Guild Wars 2, the improvement that I made was rerolling. I am done with that class. You can play much better than your opponent and win by 200 hp. You can watch your opponent make mistake after mistake and win, or lose by just a fraction. WINNING is frustrating on this class.

I feel you on that, I’ve got a nice level 80 Mule-amentalist that I really don’t want to delete just yet but might have to if they never fix the class. The game is 10x more enjoyable on a warrior (which is a class I really don’t like) then the elementalist.

Creslin.1758:

And the big picture is that many good D/D Ele PvPers can 1v1 ANY class in the game and win. And not only that, Ele has some of the best group support in the game, so not only can you 1v1 any class and win, you also bring AMAZING support to your group while you’re doing it. There really aren’t many classes that do that…in fact, I can’t think of any.

Yeah, D/D Ele, we’ve heard that a million times. What if we don’t want to be confined to one spec? And how much support are you able to provide with that D/D ele? Because, if you want to switch to another weapon you’ll have to do it manually, outside of combat.

Creslin.1758:

If you don’t like the playstyle of Ele, then by all means, try another class.

I have, and now I wish I hadn’t spent so much time on the Ele (I’ve been sitting at 78 for over 2 weeks with no desire to get 80). My experience comes from PvE, and in that setting the Thief/Ranger makes the Ele seem like hard mode (and for me, the Thief is more fun).

Frankly, the versatility of the Ele doesn’t overcome the deficiencies in damage and defense, and I have to work A LOT harder to get a worse result. “Jack of all trades, master of none” is a perfect characterization of the Ele to me. Yeah, I can “do stuff” all day long, but it doesn’t really feeling like anything I’m doing is all that effective. I agree that you give up WAY too much for the ability to have 20 skills available to you at the same time (kind of) .

I’m surprised nobody in this thread has mentioned underwater combat. The Ele skills are so incredibly weak I can’t imagine they’re not the worst in the game by a large margin.

magnafides.8136:

Creslin.1758:

And the big picture is that many good D/D Ele PvPers can 1v1 ANY class in the game and win. And not only that, Ele has some of the best group support in the game, so not only can you 1v1 any class and win, you also bring AMAZING support to your group while you’re doing it. There really aren’t many classes that do that…in fact, I can’t think of any.

Yeah, D/D Ele, we’ve heard that a million times. What if we don’t want to be confined to one spec? And how much support are you able to provide with that D/D ele? Because, if you want to switch to another weapon you’ll have to do it manually, outside of combat.

Creslin.1758:

If you don’t like the playstyle of Ele, then by all means, try another class.

I have, and now I wish I hadn’t spent so much time on the Ele (I’ve been sitting at 78 for over 2 weeks with no desire to get 80). My experience comes from PvE, and in that setting the Thief/Ranger makes the Ele seem like hard mode (and for me, the Thief is more fun).

Frankly, the versatility of the Ele doesn’t overcome the deficiencies in damage and defense, and I have to work A LOT harder to get a worse result. “Jack of all trades, master of none” is a perfect characterization of the Ele to me. Yeah, I can “do stuff” all day long, but it doesn’t really feeling like anything I’m doing is all that effective. I agree that you give up WAY too much for the ability to have 20 skills available to you at the same time (kind of) .

I’m surprised nobody in this thread has mentioned underwater combat. The Ele skills are so incredibly weak I can’t imagine they’re not the worst in the game by a large margin.

Underwater…yeah no comment there, I hate underwater on my Ele.

But as to the group support with D/D…here is what I can offer with that weapon set only:

near permanent swiftness and fury for my entire group.
Lots and lots of might stacks…one combo gives 10 stacks to the entire group.
3 ways to grant protection to the entire group.
2 different regents that stack for the group.
2 AoE condition removals and beals for the group every 12 seconds.
Fire fields that can be used for dps or might.
Frost aura and shock aura for the entire group.

And that is support ONLY, not counting any crowd control or dps that I bring. I really don’t think there are many classes that offer more.

Sounds good, can I be nearly as effective with another spec, or just a specific D/D build?

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

Death Reincarnated.3570:

A warrior has a simple task – spam the hell out of the enemy with his sword
A Ranger has a simple task – spam the hell out of the enemy with his bow

The other classes I won’t commnet since players tend to compare an elementalist to the above – always talking about DPS/damge/etc.

An elementalist is more versatile and requires more thinking, rather, than spamming one attack style only – thats what a warrior or ranger is for.

I disagree with what you said with Ranger and Warrior examples.
You dont just “Spamm attks” with Warrior or Ranger for DPS!
That’s what horrible players do.

I play Warrior and Ranger as well as Elementalist, and those classes require lots of thinking and are all versatile. I play 5 classes as my main and I know when and how to use my skills in combat, When and how to weapon swap with my other classes to adapt to the situation. I dont just spam DPS. I use Cripple, Stun, Chill, endurance regain, Swiftness, Knowckdown, Knowckback, etc etc with all my classes.

As a Warrior, I hardly take hits since Im on constant Move+Dodge as I use Meele and Ranged weapons. DPS is good but should never be only focus with any class.

Then you’re a special case

The general mentality that players have of a warrior and ranger is that you can staticaly spam attack at enemy – hence why those types are generaly easy to control and use.

Blaine Tog.8304:

It doesn’t have to be a bad trade-off to be a trade-off. My argument isn’t that these costs are onerous individually but that we’re paying one too many times.

We are paying a price and getting smth in return though. For me, it’s worth it, because I like playing jack of all trades char. I can spec for smth and still have a bit of everything else

I’m inclined to think there’s less power tied up in finisher skills than in fields, but that’s debatable. I’m also inclined to

Fields hang around for a bit though, while finishers are generally a 1time deal. I don’t think anyone can judge which skill is better. Thing is, everybody has more of one kind, ut just because a field is not finished, doesn’t mean it was wasted. I still got some hp back or slowed down the mobs or dealt good dmg…

A few things.

1) Yes, different attunements provide versatility, but other factors drag down our versatility. We net greater versatility than other classes, but not so much more as to justify all the costs.

2) DPS in Earth is largely less impressive than DPS in Fire. It’s there, true, but weaker for most weapons (Dagger offhand has some serious damage, to be sure, though it has other drawbacks).

3) An Elementalist sticking to one attunement is worse off than another profession sticking to one weapon. You can hold back on casting spells so they don’t go on cooldown, but then your DPS suffers again.

1. But that is your opinion.
2. Meh, daggers. I dun like it either, but on staff it’s pretty good. And it depends a lot on the build, but while one would be lower by default, weaker =/= weak. I find staff earth a very good middle ground with both dmg and survival under the same hood.

Because for other professions, it’s a legitimate way to end a combo and not just something to do while lazy.

Not all of them. Actually, autoattacking on my mesmer would end worse compared to my ele. But anyway, autoattacking is…boring.

I am attempting to state universal facts, as are you. If we weren’t, we couldn’t be having any sort of a discussion at all. We certainly couldn’t in any way disagree with each other (as it’s impossible to disagree with a personal preference), but obviously we do.

Ermmm, I have to disagree. You can’t really argue about facts, only opinions. If I said…dog are mammals(fact), you couldn;t disagree with me. But if I were to say that…Dire Straights is the best band ever(my opinion), you could argue that Deep Purple are better. And while we could keep bringing up awards, albums sold, concerts etc to support each opinion with facts, it doesn’t mean the argument itself is based on facts. Because that implies one of us has to be wrong while the other one is right….and a discussion where one is ultimately right/wrong is virtually pointless. Think about debate club in school….

I find it rude and presumptuous in the extreme for you to attempt to define my preferences for me. Furthermore, doing such as part of a discussion about a third-party topic is essentially an attempt to muscle me out in a way that doesn’t address my points.

So I’ll put this simply: please stop telling me what I like and what I don’t like. Whether I like the Elementalist or not is irrelevant to whether I’m correct that they’ve been overcharged for the attunement mechanic.

Where did I say you don’t like the elementalist? My grandpa loves sweet things. He’s also diabetic. Does that mean he should keep eating sweet stuff and then complain he ends up in the hospital every time? And would it be the cakes fault?

And if I’m wrong and the class is perfect for you, how come you see it as flawed while others don’t? The mere fact that this topic isn;t filled with “omg, you are totally right” should tip you off thta maybe the issue is not with the class itself but in the way you interact with it. Everything you point out as “bad” is my very reason for playing a ele. How can you claim to be objective and not person in that case?

magnafides.8136:

Creslin.1758:

And the big picture is that many good D/D Ele PvPers can 1v1 ANY class in the game and win. And not only that, Ele has some of the best group support in the game, so not only can you 1v1 any class and win, you also bring AMAZING support to your group while you’re doing it. There really aren’t many classes that do that…in fact, I can’t think of any.

Yeah, D/D Ele, we’ve heard that a million times. What if we don’t want to be confined to one spec? And how much support are you able to provide with that D/D ele? Because, if you want to switch to another weapon you’ll have to do it manually, outside of combat.

Creslin.1758:

If you don’t like the playstyle of Ele, then by all means, try another class.

I have, and now I wish I hadn’t spent so much time on the Ele (I’ve been sitting at 78 for over 2 weeks with no desire to get 80). My experience comes from PvE, and in that setting the Thief/Ranger makes the Ele seem like hard mode (and for me, the Thief is more fun).

Frankly, the versatility of the Ele doesn’t overcome the deficiencies in damage and defense, and I have to work A LOT harder to get a worse result. “Jack of all trades, master of none” is a perfect characterization of the Ele to me. Yeah, I can “do stuff” all day long, but it doesn’t really feeling like anything I’m doing is all that effective. I agree that you give up WAY too much for the ability to have 20 skills available to you at the same time (kind of) .

I’m surprised nobody in this thread has mentioned underwater combat. The Ele skills are so incredibly weak I can’t imagine they’re not the worst in the game by a large margin.

I have actually had the exact opposite experience in pve.

Underwater combat also isnt that bad, to me.
Its not as great as my mesmer underwater.
But its a lot better than my gaurdian imo.

Ok, this is not supposed to be a rant-rant, but more some external insight for added perspective.

I play a Mesmer, and I have a now-lvl19 Elementalist, so far running D/D with a conjurable for ranged when I need it.

Anyhow, what I wanted to say:

• Elementalists seem sound in design, even if off in balance. This may sound like it’s moking the state, but it’s actually the exact opposite. Balance is something which is easier to fix “later on” than Design or Class Vision. Comparing many design-level elements between a Mesmer and an Elementalist, while Mesmer has a cool class idea (that’s why I play one), and currently is a very strong PvP player (if an extremely weak PvE one), the design of the skill groups and especially traits is a huge mess.
  By contrast Elementalists are quite cleverly designed here. They lock into a range instead of an attack type (for example for a Mesmer Scepter + Staff are condition weapons, GS and Sword are power weapons), which is quite unique as a drawback for double the weapon skills. Not a bad idea. Unbalanced right now, but the design is sound. More options for that range, but no alternative range.
• Likewise the traits are really clever. Not only are they thematically sound (Mesmers are completely themeless and randomized, seriously :s ), they also scale somewhat even, and have some interesting trade offs. You can have strong stances (all of them), but then can’t swap as fast. Or you can swap fast, but only have 2 strong choices. Or you can swap fast and all are evenly “somewhat” good. This is all design-wise perfect, if not yet balanced.
• Elementalist skill groups follow a rigid theme. The conjurables are an indirect type of group support, given how a partymember can always pick up the other weapon. The cantrips are a line of high-CD high-power self defense moves. The glyphs are per-stance effects. As unbalanced as individual skills are, their grouping makes sense, and makes traits enhancing groups always focus the character down a specific path of gameplay.

Mind you, this isn’t directly envy – the traits excepted, I wish I had sorted traits with themes ;_; – more a point of opposite view. I agree Elementalists need buffs, but I see all issues on a numerical level.
The design I genuinely think is the smartest of all the classes in the game right now. It creates lots of strong and noticeable anchorpoints for perks and weakness, it balances the class mechanic well with inherentl class downsides, and it creates a very unique “theme” which permeates throughout the entire design. I would argue you can see how this was probably the oldest and most-well-cooked design so far (and likewise from the state of my Mesmer class you can see how new and volatile and frequently-re-implemented the class was :X ).

Just a heads up, I don’t think any Elementalist I met was a crutch at all. I also think your class just looks amazing when unloading, especially Dagger/Dagger looks wicked, far better than any Thief or melee-Mesmer could ever show off.

TWMagimay.9057:

We are paying a price and getting smth in return though.

That accounts for the first few payments, but at a certain point it becomes too much.

TWMagimay.9057:

1. But that is your opinion.

No, that’s my argument.

People need to stop throwing out the word “opinion” as if it invalidates what the other person is saying, as if it were a hack in the discussion’s programming that let you safely ignore someone’s points.

TWMagimay.9057:

Ermmm, I have to disagree. You can’t really argue about facts, only opinions.

Opinions aren’t ultimately based on anything except personal preference, so they aren’t arguable. We are arguing about judgements, which are inferences based on facts. There’s a degree of fuzziness there, but the purpose of an argument is to resolve that fuzziness.

TWMagimay.9057:

Because that implies one of us has to be wrong while the other one is right….and a discussion where one is ultimately right/wrong is virtually pointless.

Your band analogy doesn’t apply to this situation, though. I’m not trying to say the Elementalist is the greatest or worst profession. That speaks to a question on “fun,” and fun is largely subjective. I’m saying the Elementalist is somewhat underpowered, which is a claim about objective reality. I may be wrong or I may be right, but you and I can’t both be right if we disagree about this, whereas there’s no conflict if you say you prefer one band while I say I prefer another.

TWMagimay.9057:

And if I’m wrong and the class is perfect for you, how come you see it as flawed while others don’t?

For starters, “some people disagree with you, so obviously you’re wrong” is not a valid argument.

But, again, my preferences are not the topic of the discussion. What I like (subjective question, about me) is wholly irrelevant to the question of whether the Elementalist is underpowered (objective question, about a digital object written in 1s and 0s).

I have already asked you nicely to please cease this line of discussion. It’s insulting, rude, off-topic, and fallacious. I’m not claiming to be an authority on Elementalists, I’m just trying to present arguments. At best, you’re telling me I suck and my ego is out of control, neither of which is an acceptable thing to say in a polite discussion. To go back to the band analogy, it’s like I said I like the Beatles but think they were better with Pete Best, and you respond by telling me that maybe I should just listen to another band then because obviously the Beatles just aren’t for me. (That’s a random example, by the way. I have no preference for Pete Best one way or the other.) Or, maybe I express annoyance that my hypothetical significant other leaves her purse in weird places and you tell me to dump her and get someone else.

To be clear, because apparently it is necessary to go on record, I enjoy the Elementalist profession. I think it’s fundamentally well-designed and cohesive. It mostly just needs numbers tweaks to be on par with the other professions (and everyone needs work to become perfect from par, but that’s neither here nor there).

I disagree with a lot of this post because I absolutely love my ele and feel OP as a bunker build in sPvP. I also have an 80 ranger and 80 thief and right now my ele is my favorite in functionality and gameplay.

I do agree with you on the weapon swapping though. Sure you can do it out of combat. But you press h, look for your weapon, attach it, switch to the att you want, use the skill (#4 lightning speed boost most likely), switch back to your dagger, oh wait click your other one too, and bam, you have no clue where you are anymore.

I’d love to see a weapon swap for eles that were on a much longer cooldown than other classes. Give eles a 2 minute cooldown, 3 minute cooldown, I don’t really care, as long as you can switch with a press of one button in combat at least once.

Ethics, I think it’s spelled “absolutely” – at least I think that’s what your censored word is, right? :P

MrButterMancer I feel your pain. despite all the clever heads here who knows how to play the class well..cause they’ve been playing it for minimum 10 years: S The fact is that if you want to play a magelike ranged dps profession with high sustained burst damage it’s fail to play an elementalist. I love this profession but saying that nothing’s wrong with it is sheer ignorance. It’s a flawed and unbalanced profession which can’t compete with any other profession in the game – unless you want to play a hybrid or a support class.
This is ALL about having fun, and I can assure you that most people are currently NOT having fun with the profession as it is- no matter all the flaming other people like to give .

Keep on ignoring issues with this profession and people will just choose another game eventually..simple!

Lewa.9285:

MrButterMancer I feel your pain. despite all the clever heads here who knows how to play the class well..cause they’ve been playing it for minimum 10 years: S The fact is that if you want to play a magelike ranged dps profession with high sustained burst damage it’s fail to play an elementalist. I love this profession but saying that nothing’s wrong with it is sheer ignorance. It’s a flawed and unbalanced profession which can’t compete with any other profession in the game – unless you want to play a hybrid or a support class.
This is ALL about having fun, and I can assure you that most people are currently NOT having fun with the profession as it is- no matter all the flaming other people like to give .

Keep on ignoring issues with this profession and people will just choose another game eventually..simple!

If Ele can’t compete with any other profession in the game…then tell me, why is it that I can beat just about any other player 1v1 with my D/D Ele? Now, you may respond that I am just such an amazing player that I somehow make up for the Ele’s crappiness, but we both know that is BS lol. If I play another class like Warrior, I am terrible. But if I play Ele, I am awesome.

It’s not because of the class…it’s because of ME. I am good with Ele, I suck with warrior. if you get good with Ele, you can own face as well. I know that the class has some issues (every class does), but saying that it “can’t compete with any other profession in the game” is beyond ignorant. It is possible that maybe you just aren’t a very good Ele player.

This is not about you Creslin and about your selfclaimed god playing elementalist.:-). This is about the majority who hasn’t found a tiny niche in the elementalist build – the only one that works for fairly good dps. They want fun without having to study the profession for 2 weeks first because of what might work and which won’t. People are unhappy with the class because of what I already wrote above whether you like it or not. Being personal doesn’t make your argument stronger.

Carighan.6758:

Ethics, I think it’s spelled “absolutely” – at least I think that’s what your censored word is, right? :P

Hahahaha, kinda funny. But yes, thank you. I switched the s and o so in the middle was a word that means an easy woman to lay with ;-)

Lewa.9285:

This is not about you Creslin and about your selfclaimed god playing elementalist.:-). This is about the majority who hasn’t found a tiny niche in the elementalist build – the only one that works for fairly good dps. They want fun without having to study the profession for 2 weeks first because of what might work and which won’t. People are unhappy with the class because of what I already wrote above whether you like it or not. Being personal doesn’t make your argument stronger.

I kinda understand where you are coming from, but I don’t see it as big of an issue. The ele can play a couple different play styles with different weapons very well. They can burst like thief, they can be bunker like a guard, or they can support like a… like an elementalist?

Somebody said they wanted ranged high sustainable dps…. well, that doesn’t really exist in this game. You say you want an easy class that you can just pick up and not really think about. That’s exactly what sbow rangers complain about (along with 1000 other things).

the low hit points, low armor, low single skill damage, no i win buttons ( or highly situational i win buttons), and difficulty in landing the higher damage skills make the class brutal to learn. kitten hole loving brutal.

for me this made it seem like nothing was good enough on the ele. In fact i have a post about this somewhere about not taking any spec points and doing about the same in spvp as with spec points.

combine that with bugs and such…

the ele learning curve gets to a point where it seems like nothing works.
But the problem was in fact me ( and bugs) but i sure hell did not think so… lol

I will agree though that the learning curve on the ele is kitten high and maybe even too high as it reduces the “fun” factor to a pretty large degree.
after near 400 spvp games and several hours in the mists trying stuff, most of the class I dont know how to use effectively.

lack of fun factor is a big deal. i can take a lot of pain if i like what im doing and it appears to take a long long time to get to the point of where it doesnt feel like work.

Lewa.9285:

This is not about you Creslin and about your selfclaimed god playing elementalist.:-). This is about the majority who hasn’t found a tiny niche in the elementalist build – the only one that works for fairly good dps. They want fun without having to study the profession for 2 weeks first because of what might work and which won’t. People are unhappy with the class because of what I already wrote above whether you like it or not. Being personal doesn’t make your argument stronger.

Will video proof help change your mind about Ele?

I’m seriously not that good, Ele is just a very, very good class once you get good with it. You absolutely do not have to study the class for 2 weeks. You just have to…you know, play it, practice it.

If you are arguing that every class in GW2 should be so simple that you can just pick it up and play immediately at high effectiveness…then I strongly, STRONGLY, disagree. Complexity is great for PvP games and makes them much more long-lived. If people are honestly complaining because they had to invest some modicum of effort to learn their class…then well, I don’t know what to say.

Creslin.1758:

If Ele can’t compete with any other profession in the game…then tell me, why is it that I can beat just about any other player 1v1 with my D/D Ele?

Anecdotal evidence like this doesn’t tell us much about the profession as a whole. That’s why it doesn’t matter whether you do well with the Ele at your level of play. Just as it wouldn’t mean anything if I were to say I never win sPvP as an Ele, it doesn’t mean anything if you say you always win sPvP as an Ele. Data points are almost completely meaningless when taken individually.

EDIT: To be clear, individual instances can act as counterexamples to absolute claims, so if someone were to say “Eles are so underpowered they can never do well,” you could disprove that claim, prima facie, by showing a single example of an Elementalist doing well.

The problem is, that example ceases to be useful as soon as the word “never” is replaced with a weaker phrase like “generally don’t do well” or “on the whole, don’t do as well.” If you slashed Ele damage by 20% across the board, you should still occasionally see Eles dominate matches but if (as you say) they’re balanced now, they would be underpowered at -20% damage. An Ele doing well would not by itself mean the profession is fine.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Creslin.1758:

If Ele can’t compete with any other profession in the game…then tell me, why is it that I can beat just about any other player 1v1 with my D/D Ele?

Anecdotal evidence like this doesn’t tell us much about the profession as a whole. That’s why it doesn’t matter whether you do well with the Ele at your level of play. Just as it wouldn’t mean anything if I were to say I never win sPvP as an Ele, it doesn’t mean anything if you say you always win sPvP as an Ele. Data points are almost completely meaningless when taken individually.

I agree, but he’s simply voicing his opinions, which is exactly what this forum is for. OP is saying there are problems with the ele. If everybody agreed then maybe some Devs would read it and think about it. People like Creslin and myself are disagreeing with OP to let the Devs know that there are people who like the ele and where it is right now in relation to other classes. Overall I think rangers and necros are the most broken, but the other 6 seem somewhat well balanced.

Granted that’s getting a little off topic.

Creslin, if you have to be a D/D Ele to be as effective as other classes, something is wrong. I have used S/D primarily, and some staff too, and it’s weak no matter how often I switch attunements or stack might.