Guild Wars 2

I’ve been a large supporter of Guild Wars 2 for quite awhile now. It’s actually one of two games I will invest money on in micro-transactions in order to encourage continued Living World development. The expansion is, I think, historically, the only game I have ever pre-ordered, simply on the basis of my respect for the Anet dev team and what they are capable of.

Yet, despite this, these last few weeks have been quite a kick in the balls. Even though Tempest did not turn out to be the disaster the community originally predicated it to be, it has been still the general consensus of the community that it can use some improvements and at least, a number of quality of life changes, particularly when compared to the raw power creep of other elite specializations.

A number of posters have submitted suggestions, including myself, and these have been met largely with silence since roughly around the second beta weekend with zero feedback as to what the future held or if we were even being listened to. In the wake of this no communication, we’ve seen two patches that solely focused on FX changes and did nothing to improve the gameplay experience for the people who just recently purchased the expansion.

So…yeah…just saying….kind of kittening discouraging….

Even a simple statement of “Hey, we have heard all of your complaints and we think you are all completely bonkers. We feel tempest is fine and if you give it a chance, you may end up agreeing with us” would be a better way to handle it than this.

I finally got Rebound to work on the 200th use. You know what it did? Nothing.
I didn’t die, then my hp went back up to 2k, and then I died with a simple autoattack.

There is some skills and traits with Tempest that are so badly conceived (trait overlaps and rushed skills like lightning orb that only work on flat terrain) it’s unbelievable that they released it as it is.

Xillllix.3485:

I finally got Rebound to work on the 200th use. You know what it did? Nothing.
I didn’t die, then my hp went back up to 2k, and then I died with a simple autoattack.

There is some skills and traits with Tempest that are so badly conceived (trait overlaps and rushed skills like lightning orb that only work on flat terrain) it’s unbelievable that they released it as it is.

To say nothing of the ‘visual noise reduction’ the auras (and fireball) have been slapped with.

Tempest is mechanically terrible. Due to high healing NUMBERS, it works in pvp as an aura-spam, heal, and cleanse bot. It isn’t very hard to play b/c it has SO MUCH SUSTAIN, but it isn’t very fun either. Even overloads, besides air, are basically only used situationally to get auras.

Honestly though, the power-creep from HoT is kinda killing the game for me. Everything feels much less skillfull, tempest included (and managing to make d/d ele look skillfull is an achievement), because there is just so many procs, instants, and invulns flying around, and most big effects have tiny animations. Fights basically come down to who has a better rotation 90% of the time. This is especially true with tempest, as 90% of the skills feel like they do the same thing.

I’ve given up on trying to get them to listen to the community, it is clear they aren’t interested. To them it is “If it works in PvP it should be fine everywhere” when really the only other use I’ve seen for tempest is just using air and fire OL as filler in a staff rotation instead of auto attacks.

I don’t necessarily enjoy being a healbot through auras. Or a Cleansebot.

The sad part is that despite its flaws running tempest is pretty mandatory now but not for the right reasons.

Rebound can work on the caster? What! I’ve never gotten it to work.

emikochan.8504:

Rebound can work on the caster? What! I’ve never gotten it to work.

Even when it works it’s still useless. It’s not going to turn a battle around, you’ll just die 0.5 seconds later.

What Rebound needs to do is cast Arcane Shield or Mist Form and remove conditions if it successfully prevent a killing blow.

Until it does something like that it will only serve as a crappy delayed aura skill on a epic long cooldown.

The perma protection is a little bit overpowered, though without tempest would probably be too weak.

The high Protection uptime is like half the reason I even play Tempest :p It even lets me run Marauder ammy, something which would’ve been unthinkable to me outside of the gimmicky Fresh Air scepter build.

I agree that without the Protection uptime, the spec would be very underwhelming. I hope it’s not nerfed.

ANet and respect in one sentence… Also, giving them money to fund SINGLEPLAYER of an MMORPG? I really don’t get how people enjoy those. There could’ve been so much more…

I think the Tempest and Meta is too young to make Statements and believe them as truths, the most common use for them now are auras because they are quite straightforward providing healing and support. There’s more to it tho, just started to play with builds and noticed other several usages (Might stacker), Condition Damage builds and I think I found a way to beat current Staff DPS damage output, just doing some tests and tunning… but in short so many possibilities for overloads and changes in the rotations as certain shouts can be cast during the cast of other spells such as meteor shower. As of the Elite yes is hard to use, useless, not really… find it useful on raids when people fails to gather on the green spot… just an example… used it successfully on small groups fights on WvW … could be better, yes! … make it last longer I would say

I think the AoE cleanse and protection spam builds are the strongest. With soldier runes and torrents and cleansing water and diamond skin, you basically delete condition pressure from the enemy team.

But yeah I do think maybe elemental shielding should be ICDed or something to at least give other people gaps in the tempest’s infinite protection rotation, since no one runs boon strip on mesmer anymore to play the much more braindead chronobunker. I do like things about tempest like the positional gameplay of overloads and wash the pain away. I like the skillful support it brings. I don’t like how it can easily hardcounter certain builds in many situations though.

nearlight.3064:

I think the AoE cleanse and protection spam builds are the strongest. With soldier runes and torrents and cleansing water and diamond skin, you basically delete condition pressure from the enemy team.

But yeah I do think maybe elemental shielding should be ICDed or something to at least give other people gaps in the tempest’s infinite protection rotation, since no one runs boon strip on mesmer anymore to play the much more braindead chronobunker. I do like things about tempest like the positional gameplay of overloads and wash the pain away. I like the skillful support it brings. I don’t like how it can easily hardcounter certain builds in many situations though.

I don’t agree that ES should be nerfed just because other classes that have ample boon strip refuse to adapt and run it. Honestly, the only aspect in which I see Tempest being slightly overtuned at the moment is versus condi builds, but that is mostly because of Diamond Skin. I don’t think Shouts are spammable enough to negate sustained condi pressure in teamfights.

Tempest opened my eyes. It showed me how bad many of the elementalists skills are designed. Previously, you could pick 2 or 3 skills of an attunement that were worth casting and just switch to the next. With overloads, I have to stay longer in a single attunement. Which means I actually have to use all of the skills. Have you ever noticed how bad earth autoattack is? Or water? I am sitting in an attunement and just spam useless skills just to get the 5 seconds over to get my overload. But it doesn’t matter of I spam useless skills because all I have to do is spam my healing skills. It’s funny though since in almost all of my ranked/unranked games, the opponent team will start a huge flamewar because they don’t understand why they are losing.

Tempest is a huge step back. Yes, it is viable and strong in ranked games. But is it fun to play? No. Elementalist was always fun because of the fast paced nature that came with attunement swapping. Tempest forces you to do the exact opposite.

3 years and 1 elite spec later, I’m still waiting for a viable glass cannon build on the one class archetype that is KNOWN IN EVERY FANTASY WORLD TO BE ABOUT HUGE DAMAGE.

Glenstorm.4059:

nearlight.3064:

I think the AoE cleanse and protection spam builds are the strongest. With soldier runes and torrents and cleansing water and diamond skin, you basically delete condition pressure from the enemy team.

But yeah I do think maybe elemental shielding should be ICDed or something to at least give other people gaps in the tempest’s infinite protection rotation, since no one runs boon strip on mesmer anymore to play the much more braindead chronobunker. I do like things about tempest like the positional gameplay of overloads and wash the pain away. I like the skillful support it brings. I don’t like how it can easily hardcounter certain builds in many situations though.

I don’t agree that ES should be nerfed just because other classes that have ample boon strip refuse to adapt and run it. Honestly, the only aspect in which I see Tempest being slightly overtuned at the moment is versus condi builds, but that is mostly because of Diamond Skin. I don’t think Shouts are spammable enough to negate sustained condi pressure in teamfights.

Well lets look at boon hate.

1. Necro- Reaper means you can’t bring as much as before (no spite and curses at same time), generally only signets or the rare corrupt boon which have less pressure from diamond skin.

2.. Mallyx Rev- Spammable boon strip, but also the pressure is reduced by diamond skin.

3. Mesmer- Shatter chronomancer is only viable if you’re supcutie/zeromis levels of skilled. Braindead chronobunker has no boon removal generally.

4. Engi- Throw mine, nuff said.

5. Thief- Bountiful theft, not always ran due to tradeoffs.

Logical Conclusions: There needs to be either more boon removal in the game, less boons, or diamond skin needs a nerf. But anet won’t even think of balancing until february so whats the point in complaining..

imho, i find the Elementalist and Tempest to be perfectly fine.

people QQIng on Diamond skins ridiculous, well done Something is going to counter you, and tbh it isnt like it isnt at sacrifice of anything, im pretty sure in a ideal world Ele/Tempests would love to take Stone heart to lower the burst, stop DHs and things from doing massive damage to them.

Tempest actually hasnt replaced based proffession at all D/D Elementalist and Celestial Staff Elementalists are still both viable, and pretty on par, which i like it hasnt had its variation stripped from it like most elites (which can be seen as a bad thing) due to this, our Elite isnt as Strong as other elites in the game, ours seem more balanced to the Orginal proffession then others seem to be.

I dont think Tempest needs any massive buffs, a few QoL Changes, and its Elite buffed up abit, but tbh, alot of elites need bringing down realistically, so hopefully it’ll even out in 3 months atleast.

Considering if u actually look at alot, diamond skin isnt that great, it deletes condi pressure til your under 90% health, Reapers will quickly bring u beneath 90% hp with Power Damage, so will Scrappers, and it deletes nothing outside 1v1ing a Pure Condi proffession build, as in a teamfight u wont stay above 90% massively, Cleaves and Focus will bring u beneath that, so to use it as a argument to why it needs nerfing is ridiculous.

Tempests are great at 1v1ing Condi builds, at the end of the day things counter other things, you have to deal with that if ur running a condi build you cant 1v1 a tempest, Just dont focus the Tempest if u cannot provide Power Damage to bring him under 90%

nearlight.3064:

I think the AoE cleanse and protection spam builds are the strongest. With soldier runes and torrents and cleansing water and diamond skin, you basically delete condition pressure from the enemy team.

But yeah I do think maybe elemental shielding should be ICDed or something to at least give other people gaps in the tempest’s infinite protection rotation, since no one runs boon strip on mesmer anymore to play the much more braindead chronobunker. I do like things about tempest like the positional gameplay of overloads and wash the pain away. I like the skillful support it brings. I don’t like how it can easily hardcounter certain builds in many situations though.

There is no point in complaining because your remarks are horrendously wrong, the tempest defenses are not even half as strong as you make them to be….

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/v/27923458 skip to 1:52:34

Double ele/double diamond skin facerolled by rev/reaper comp; diamond skin only works at low MMR against below average condi players and their bad team

-Every half decent necro will just outrotate you if you try to solo defend a point and just send a power build your way, then join and screw you over

-In team fights, he will just call target you and easily down you

Seriously we’ve been playing around in the “diamond skin too strong” thread but in the end of the day as somebody already pointed out, the trait is useless above hotjoin level, honestly you can delete diamond skin if it makes you happy.

If the main objective was to duel reaper or mallyx rev then there are far better options

1) Fire line = cleansing fire+fire aura on attunement change(10s CD)invigorating torrentaura on overload + cleansing fire utility( optional) + lucid singularity ( bug fixed, remove chill/immobilize/cripple and grants 100% immunity = earth overload to counter fear spam)
2)Stop drop and roll
3) Svanir runes +geomancer freedom + the rest
4) staff + ER + rock solid
5) Focus

And I’m sure there are other ways to negate the hardcountering chill reaper, no delete the build but simply avoid to be hardcountered by him

And perma protection? pls..without stone heart a rev or dh couldn’t care less about your perma protection

I’m not saying tempest is not viable but your assertion that a soldier/shout tempest delete condi pressure from enemy team ..it’s so…outrageous lie, just watch ESL and see for yourself.

We’re talking about esl..now try your “panacea” tempest as solo player and tell me how that work for you

P.S another double diamond skin ele getting stomped into the ground

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/v/27937802

As I’ve said : " above hotjoin diamond skin is useless"

Supreme, you just copied this from your condihate thread.

This post is talking about tempest being too strong due to infinite protection, not addressing its ability to handle conditions.

As it stands, tempest can stall most other builds in the game in a 1v1. It may die when it gets focused by two or three people, but in a 1v1 it stalls things too many things too well.

I just feel as though using overload earth off cooldown to maintain infinite protection is unhealthy for the game since it gives an opponent playing a power build few windows to exploit to try and coordinate a burst.

But don’t worry chronomancer is way worse in every way. Since the spam evasion instead of protection,

nearlight.3064:

Supreme, you just copied this from your condihate thread.

This post is talking about tempest being too strong due to infinite protection, not addressing its ability to handle conditions.

As it stands, tempest can stall most other builds in the game in a 1v1. It may die when it gets focused by two or three people, but in a 1v1 it stalls things too many things too well.

I just feel as though using overload earth off cooldown to maintain infinite protection is unhealthy for the game since it gives an opponent playing a power build few windows to exploit to try and coordinate a burst.

But don’t worry chronomancer is way worse in every way. Since the spam evasion instead of protection,

Can you explain to me what would be the point of having a bunker build not able to stall most builds 1vs1?

Where is my sustain if I want to play a burst build and go toe to toe with a thief, mesmer, rev, dragon hunter etc etc?

So let me get this straight all other professions should have multiple build with which cover multiple roles and of top of that they should have a fair chance against the only role eles can cover, just delete eles then?

-mesmers can bunker and burst have top end builds
-rangers can bunker , condi and power all viable build with the bunker being top end
-necro can power, condi, semi bunker
-guardians can “bunker”, power, condi
-revenant can power/condi
-engi can power/condi/bunker

..ele can bunker…nope too OP nerf it -_-

The fact that other professions can choose what amulet to run while ele is cele amulet or go die in kitten is ofc fine for you also

The fact that you mention how ele can stall not even win some 1vs1 and how that is apparently OP..is amazing, you know I can count on a single hand the number of people who made an ele to play a healbot with zero 1vs1 potential

And btw….during last ESL no team with double ele has won where is your OP 1vs1 unbreakable diamond skin tempest? Find it for me pls

Yeah, kinda curious now, I would like to see that infinite protection tempest build! I am sure a thief would still have it’s way with it

Any tempest can have near endless protection. Overload earth and stay in the sport when it ends…. Horray you start the fight doing near no preassure for the first 5s. to get protection reward. It´s not to hard to pull it off. you get stability too. I cover it with an aura shout just before the OL. With focus i have magnetic wave in my sleeves.
So unless boonstrip is coming its protection for the fight…

I absolutely loved the idea of the Tempest when it came out, however, it shares the same problem as many other elite specializations: there isn’t a fully synergetic theme to it. The theme is fragmented and players are more likely to take bits and pieces and add them to already existing builds – which for the Tempest is particularily problematic because even though Elementalists as a class have always been very well-rounded when it comes to meeting content or comparing to other classes, it has never had much internal harmony.

It’s very abstract putting it like that, so let me explain it. The Tempest promised two-three things when it was first unveiled: auramancing, an alternative to stance-dancing with overloads and a short-med AoE-support playstyle with the Warhorn.

Auramancing and support-builds have always been around but they have also always been niche builds and the Tempest felt like an attempt at making the underplayed niches of the class more competetive. The problem is that the build attempts to do too many things at once and never really does anything well enough.

Instead, popular existing builds – using daggers and staves – look to incorporate the Tempest line the best by just adding overloads to existing attacks or because a setup like D/D already perform better than any options that attempt a more supportive approach. Staff fields and abilities are supportive in their own right. There are more auras on the daggers, the baseline-stack relative of healing power is still questionable which becomes very appearant with bastion, and the self-supportive goodies lost on both weapons and traits do not justify switching up weapons or builds.

That’s the gist of it. That’s also why we see most of the use involve using the new traits and functions to cover glassy dagger and staff builds – the already most popular builds.

Ed. With the exception of the sPvP bunker builds of course, but surviving duels to force rotations isn’t much of a class role in that sense. It requires a specific game mode and a specific situation – where you play only in one way, your team mates understand what you do, and the pace of the game allow you to be effective – on top of that. Outside of that context that build does not really exist.

Even if we all agree that the protection uptime is OP (which in my experiences even in the meat and potatoes brackets, it’s not given just how much dmg, particularly condi dmg, gets flung around), you are essentially stating that the merits of tempest lie in a very specific team support build and the boons provided by auras which has nothing to do with the main mechanics of the elite specialization.

Like, in what world, is this acceptable? There isn’t a plethora of builds for tempest being thrown around; I’ve seen like three in total with several variations of each. Two of them are based off very specific trait interactions; fresh air synergy with air overload and aura synergy.

Tempest isn’t a robust solid elite specialization presenting a variety of options and playstyles. Working builds are essentially gimmicks that we have made work by salvaging from poor trait choices and can be easily destroyed with a single nerf.

It’s following the same history at the moment as scepter. A collection of broken skills that was only utilized for the interaction of like two skills in order to do powerful burst. That’s a gimmick. A gimmick that was largely destroyed by nerfs without any changes of note actually being done to the weapon.

And it sucks, because I actually like tempest, particularly in PvE and think it has a lot of potential to be more than a gimmick.

MadRabbit.3179:

Even if we all agree that the protection uptime is OP (which in my experiences even in the meat and potatoes brackets, it’s not given just how much dmg, particularly condi dmg, gets flung around), you are essentially stating that the merits of tempest lie in a very specific team support build and the boons provided by auras which has nothing to do with the main mechanics of the elite specialization.

Like, in what world, is this acceptable? There isn’t a plethora of builds for tempest being thrown around; I’ve seen like three in total with several variations of each. Two of them are based off very specific trait interactions; fresh air synergy with air overload and aura synergy.

Tempest isn’t a robust solid elite specialization presenting a variety of options and playstyles. Working builds are essentially gimmicks that we have made work by salvaging from poor trait choices and can be easily destroyed with a single nerf.

It’s following the same history at the moment as scepter. A collection of broken skills that was only utilized for the interaction of like two skills in order to do powerful burst. That’s a gimmick. A gimmick that was largely destroyed by nerfs without any changes of note actually being done to the weapon.

And it sucks, because I actually like tempest, particularly in PvE and think it has a lot of potential to be more than a gimmick.

I made a 4th that I believe is original please give it serious consideration (I tried it and works) …
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/DPS-Tempest-Almighty-S-H-Are-you-Nuts/first#post5822525

Let me know what you think

All the protection in the world won’t reduce the train wreck coming from revs, DH, and even power druid…without stone heart you’re toasted in those match up even if you have 24/7 protection that’s why the frustration..all that protection does nothing against one button KO skills like Unrelenting assault, deathly chill, DH braindead traps, druid stupid kittening new pets hitting like a truck while the ranger spam 5s cd daze etc etc

How can anybody come here saying the tempest or ele is OP? Do people even watch ESL? Not a single 1vs1 won by a tempest, all wrecked in no time when focused down, the top ele switched to rev and you still get “Ele sustain is OP QQ” 2012 type of threads…unbelievable

kuritsutian.2987:

Yeah, kinda curious now, I would like to see that infinite protection tempest build! I am sure a thief would still have it’s way with it

Take durability runes and elemental shielding and use earth overload from time to time. Obtaining permanent protection as a tempest is mindnumbingly easy.

Supreme, I think that tempest should be a teamfight support build in essence, but it’s overtuned as a pointholder itself. But whatever, you’re Niro it to be happy until tempest is an immortal god that takes no damage from conditions because that’s how biased you are.

More people should be multiclassers like me so they don’t endlessly fail to see what’s overpowered in their own class, because news flash, other people play other classes in this game too..

@ MadRabbit

I’m not sure if it is me you are replying too, but yes, that is essentially what I’m saying. You could certainly say that it does follow the history of the scepter . I’m using the word fragmented to point to it, not necessarily to imply that it’s broken but to point to how its collection of skills (as you put it) is all over the place. It is gimmicky and that’s the problem with the Tempest.

Being acceptable:

As far as everything else goes, being supportive is not necessarily too specific. Support can involve both heals, control, boons, damage and other effects. That the specialization is supportive can be seen in how it caters to auras, boons and ground effects with the overloads, warhorn and shouts. That is supportive by nature. While the warhorn (and the scepter) having issues competing with staves and daggers to achieve that adds to the gimmick and leads to the situation where – looking broadly at the game – it seems far more appealing to just add overloads, bastion and better protection to common staff- and dagger builds.

A plethora of builds:

As far as builds go, it’s trickier since the meta has to settle, they tend to differ depending on game-mode and traits tend to provide options that may not necessarily change the playstyle as much as weapons or stats do. I’d say there are some options but those options, again, also add to the gimmicky feel of picking the elite spec or the warhorn.

You are locked into Tempest. Water provides the aura share, but is little more than a crutch besides that (you can add some healing/cleansing traits and reasons to keep a cantrip or two) so it kind of highlights the gimmick issue. You essentially pick an entire tree just for a single trait. There are other traits that are nice but none that enhances the style, they rather contradict it, giving you reasons not to pick shouts or warhorn.

Lightning has the fresh-air overload synergy you spoke of and together with some options in the minors it’s not bad. It also serves as a good example of what I spoke of initially: It’s an attempt to make an existing gimmick (scepter, fresh-air builds) less of a gimmick, while falling short of the goal, because scepter-warhorn does not synergize well enough or compare to other options.

Earth has additions to protection and tanking in general, there are some powerful traits here but nothing you can’t live without. I’ll leave it at that for now. It’s not a bad couple as far as trees go, I just don’t have much to say about it.

Arcane may seem as an odd tree but it does have auras on res and boon additions that go in line with how supportive Ele builds used to be played (old splash and mercy builds), so the synergy is high with some tree-combinations but the effect is low. It’s kind of opposite to earth in that regard, but similarily, there isn’t much more to say about it.

Finally, Fire may also seem like an odd pick but once you factor in maintaining a style from a defensive build (with eg., Cele gear or the new boon/condi duration stats) then there are some things in Fire that become very valuable, including might-stacking. Fire is the tree I’m having the most trouble letting go off, because If I don’t play glassy and pick up a warhorn, I feel like I really need those damage additions to maintain some output.

Back to the argument:

In fact, most other trees have something to offer and that is fine. The problem is that Water has the least to offer, with the least synergy and most interference from the Tempest traits, yet Water has the all-important aura-share if you want to go the auramancing route. Hence water is problematic because it essentially locks you into two trees and leave you in a situation where you almost end up as a healer instead: a role we know by experience to be quite limited by the game and only one aspect of playing supportive with auras (and not any less gimmicky than old mercy/auramancing builds).

All in all, I’m not sure if we disagree about the availability of builds either. I just wanted to point to a few more trait synergies that exist – beside fresh-air/overload – and highlight why Water is the problem. There is obviously a difference between a presumed intention, potential and what is practical. That’s sort of the main piece of my argument: I love the intention, I see some potential but it isn’t practical and that’s why only fragments (overloads, bastion, protection) is being picked up by builds and play styles that are practical. I would love to use the warhorn and go somewhat tanky, but outside of bunkering, it’s just far more practical to stay on staff or daggers and just use those fragments to enhance what you already do.

The issues are quite easily solved though by simply moving powerful auras, to essentially any other tree (even though it would probably best fit into arcane if it is to remain a grandmaster trait), and adding more auras to the warhorn than the dagger. In an ideal world Anet would capitalize on the opportunity to do something about the scepter, possibly adding auras to compete with the dagger there too, that fits into a tempest and warhorn playstyle.

What I would personally like to see is Tempest able to add variation to the number of available builds on the same level as Reaper and Druid. I don’t see how moving powerful auras to another traitline so you can make a gimmick build more powerful solves that.

Which is essentially what you are asking. Aura’s are kept in check by the current distribution of traits. Moving Powerful Auras to anything but Arcane would be pretty insane.

You move it to Fire, you gain an additional aura, then you run Fire/Earth/Tempest and in addition to boosting your offensive ability, you get a steady stream of team might stacks in addition to 100% protection uptime.

You move it to Air, you still gain an additional aura and the team might is replaced with constant uptime of team fury and swiftness.

This is in addition to the vigor and regen.

So…. the suggested change just makes the same single aura build more powerful and doesn’t do really anything to make most of the Tempest traits worth a kitten or overloads a crucial mechanic instead of that thing you get as a second prize when you are making your shout and aura build.

It also does nothing for PvE, because aura share just isn’t very valuable, even in the support builds I make for PvE. Running condition removal on regen would be more valuable since the heavy threat from conditions in PvE tends to be heavy stacks of a single condition like poison, burn or bleed.

(Well, if you moved aura share to Air, then it would seriously juice up Fire/Air/Tempest PvE builds, but I can’t see how that would be doing anything in adding more unbalanced power creep that moves the class in the wrong direction.)

It’s pretty simple really, a gimmick is a gimmick because it either does too few things well (fresh-air cannons) or too many things not well enough (auramancers). You go on about overloads as if they were the problem. They’re not. The problem is with the warhorn, the shouts and the style of gameplay they inescapably put you into. Everything else is just a question of synergy in traits.

The issue I have is that, even when picking up Tempest traits, I keep reverting back to staff or daggers and utilities on common stat weights because they are simply better – for everything – even if I build to support horn and shouts with some dedication. That’s the problem. While you keep finger pointing about gimmicks, I’m starting to believe that you are the one who are too hung up on the content you want to use the build in or what for.

That also seems to be the misconception or confusion of the traits. I’m not arguing for a build that just pop auras, I’m arguing against the kind of temp-water-earth aura-builds that only tanks and heals because they have no role outside of bunkering.

That’s the same issue the scepter and certain other utilities have had in the past too – and moving powerful auras to another tree becomes important once we consider that it not only collides with the heals and cleanses, but also with the cantrips and their effects too.

Subversion.2580:

It’s pretty simple really, a gimmick is a gimmick because it either does too few things well (fresh-air cannons) or too many things not well enough (auramancing). You go on about overloads as if they were the problem. They’re not. The problem is with the warhorn, the shouts and the style of gameplay that they inescapably put you into. Everything else is just a question of synergy in traits.

I call a gimmick a gimmick when the crux of it rests on either one or two traits or skills that a single nerf can destroyed, as opposed to a well rounded build that effectively makes well-rounded usage of most of the skills and abilities.

I consider auras to be a gimmick since it hinges on auras and a few very specific trait choices. The suggestions you have made would push tempest further into that niche, not away.

And since we are bluntly stating absolutes with no supporting arguments, no, you are wrong. There is quite a few problems with overloads, warhorn, some of the shouts and a number of the Tempest traits.

MadRabbit.3179:

I consider auras to be a gimmick since it hinges on auras and a few very specific trait choices.

Indeed, which makes pigeon-holing you into specific builds just to play with them bad because then those builds become gimmicks. Auras are not a gimmick: they are an effect, nothing else. When it comes to other non-boon effects (fears, stuns, stealths etc.), you very rarely see their traits spread out over all trees or have their basic components split over multiple trees – since that would cause gimmick builds rather than intergrating the effect to the basic playstyle of the class or the archetypical builds. I don’t have to wander around sniping in trees to make those things work on other classes’ utilities and weapons.

It feels odd having to repeat myself but if you go back and look at those suggestions I have made that you set out to draw conclusions from, I am suggesting spreading the effect around because the horn and the scepter have less auras than the daggers – not because I want the warhorn to just be an aura-dispenser – but to escape the feeling where I am compelled to pick daggers over scepters or horns, for their auras rather than other appeal.

Because I disagree with your changes. I see the intentions of your suggestions; I really do. I don’t think fix the real issue.

My issue with gimmick builds is not that they are gimmicks, but rather when the state of a particular weapon or even the entire class in a particular style of play rests entirely upon the gimmick itself. It is a sign that the overall design is broken.

Case in point, the usage of scepter has largely been about the interactions of very specific traits and skills combined together to produce a very high burst. When one of the traits in this combination was nerfed, the weapon, once again, fell largely out of popularity, because all the other skills on the weapon didn’t provide enough value to justify playing it without that very specific gimmick.

I see the same thing happening largely with Tempest in PvP (PvE is a whole different issue). Tempest is part of the meta, but because of a very specific combination of specific aura traits used with the additional sources of auras provided with Tempest. The suggestions you proposed would certainly make more variation of builds with different trait lines that can be taken and different weapons that can be used, but you still have the same fundamental issue: the core of those builds still rests on that same combination.

And if any of those core traits were to be heavily nerfed, then you would see Tempest fall out of the meta all together, because everything else it brings to the table isn’t strong enough to keep it in play.

So, it’s my stance, that Tempest is being included in PvP meta for the wrong reason and your suggestions don’t fix the real problem.

You also made a comment about my focus on Tempest. It’s not that I focus on Tempest, because I am oblivious to other weak areas of elementalist. It’s just that Anet has made it pretty clear that they are going to change the meta by introducing new specialization instead of reworking the old stuff.

It’s been like 3 years now. They aren’t going to rebuild scepter. However, there was a potential oppurtunity for Tempest to address and improve weak areas of the elementalist. And with beta ending and the complete lack of feedback, it’s pretty clear the window on that opportunity is passing which makes it even more disapointing.

Because Tempest didn’t do anything to address any of the weak areas of elementalist. It didn’t change the class in any kind of fundamental way.

So I guess, I am just waiting for the next expansion now and hoping the next elite specialization has the same impact on our class that Reaper, Scrapper, Chronomancer and Dragon Hunter had.

I mean, it’s cool. I like it. All of my builds include it. I’ve got a lot more team based healing potential to work with. That’s a plus. But I can also not include it and get builds that function nearly identical.

I would say if powerful auras is to be moved that it has to be to the tempest line.

Tempest in a Nutshell:

• Asking the class with lowest base HP and Armor to face tank damage while overloading because dodging/cancelling it will lead to a 20s CD where you don’t get half the benefits of completing an overload. On top of that, you have to be in semi-melee range to reap the full potential of overloads.

• You are based from Elementalist, the highest DPS class in most games. But no, you should play Celestial stats and try to play hybrid tank/support in competitive PvP to be viable.

• We were given new skills, the Aura shouts! But unlike other classes, we need to allot traits points into it for it to be somewhat useful.

• You have a new weapon! Look at those cool animations. Have fun looking at them while you’re idling in a town or something.

How to Improve Tempest:

• Allow dodging while Overloading Attunements.
• Change Diamond Skin into a more active skill like gaining resistance or something.
• Strengthen baseline effects of Tempest Shouts since Auras are pretty much accessible already by other classes by doing combos. Do not remove the current effects. These effects are exclusive to Auras generated by Shouts.
Flash Freeze! – Frost Aura reduces Incoming Damage by 15% and Applies 3s Resistance.
Feel the Burn! – Fire Aura Grants 2 Might (2s ICD per person) and apply 2 stacks of burning each time you are attacked.
Aftershock! – Magnetic Aura grants Retaliation and Reflected damage is increased by 50%.

Or… simply give certain condition immunity based Shout. Does not remove conditions already applied.
Feel the Burn! – Immune to Chill.
Flash-Freeze! – Immune to Burn.
Eye of the Storm! – Immune to Weakness and Blind.
After-shock! – Immune to Poison and Cripple.

• Change Lucid Singularity GM Trait to make Shouts more offensive.
Flash Freeze! – Leaves a 4 second Frozen Ground that chills foes (2s per pulse).
Feel the Burn! – Leaves a 4 second Burning field that applies 2s burn per pulse on foes.
Aftershock! – Change cripple to 1.5s Daze/Stun and leaves an unsteady ground (4s) that pulses cripple (1s per pulse) and bleed (3s per pulse) and deals damage on the final pulse (similar but weaker damage to Churning Earth).
Eye of the Storm! – Leaves a 4 second Lightning Field that applies 4s fury (Not Pulse) to allies Weakness to foes (3s per pulse).
Wash Away The Pain – I feel that this shout is pretty good already.

Elite Overhaul
Rebound! – Change to 60s CD remove killing blow healing. Change it with 5s of Resistance. Removes your next attunement’s Overload wait-time (1 use only).

• Why add these effects to shouts?
- As I said before, baseline Shouts are pretty bad when untraited.

• Why change Lucid Singularity?
– Changing Lucid Singularity will make Warhorn Viable in terms of usage. Overloads, Shouts, Warhorn. Tempest, the master of control and PBAOE.

• Cons?
- Some shout effects from new trait might be pretty redundant with current Warhorn skills and/or similar to GoS effects.
- Effects are not too strong but not too weak. It’s an AoE circle so people can easily leave the area or just tank it. It’s not that punishing for completely ignoring a couple of the field effects but it’s balanced as auras can be traited for survivability.
- Does not completely solve the problem of having to go semi-melee range while having the lowest base HP and Armor. However, upgrading Auras obtained from Shouts will make people think more before attacking a Tempest.
- Does not make a new meta viable for Tempests. Still pretty much stuck to using Celestial Trinkets in PvP.