The wheel of (mis)fortune has landed on Ele

The wheel of (mis)fortune has landed on Ele

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Posted by: Gokil.2543

Gokil.2543

In season 2 it was warriors, in season 3 it was guardians, and now it’s our turn!

Since we’re objectively bottom of the barrel right now, Arenanet’s tradition promises us some wildly over the top buffs, so we get to be Super Balanced™ for a while.

Predictions? Thinly veiled sarcasm? Raving reviews about this super-duper amazing patented class balance approach? Leave em here! Oh and constructive discussion if you really want to.

What will be the adrenal health of ele? Will we get entire weaponsets revamped like our guardian friends? Or are they just gonna add cele and clerics back and call it a day? Will we see the return of the dps ele that never actually existed to begin with?

Seriously though, I have no idea how to properly do it, so post what you think will happen, and what you want to happen.

[Walk] Elemelentalist
Youtube

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Posted by: Xillllix.3485

Xillllix.3485

I stopped playing elementalist season 2 when they forced the class to play bunker heal-bot. From that point on build variety ceased to exist and it made me leave the game for 6 months. Been trying it a bit more again lately since I came back without success.

Now even with maxed-out condi cleanse a Reaper, Berserker or Condi mesmer can melt me without any effort. Specially considering I have 6k experience on elementalist and I have more success in pvp on classes I have barely played. I may leave the game soon again, and I will never buy any more gems because of the lousy balance.

The elementalist is celestial by nature so they’ll probably bring the celestial amulet back instead of working on improvements, which is more demanding. One thing is certain: they can’t balance skills properly at all and the ele lead doesn’t know how the class functions.

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Posted by: BlackBeard.2873

BlackBeard.2873

Probably 10% buff to shatterstone damage, but increase the CD by 2s and the delay after-cast by another 1s, and THEN call it a day.

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Posted by: Skittledness.5106

Skittledness.5106

Ele still works fine and can bring a lot to a team

Jeffies Jeffie Jeff Jeff Jeff Jeff Jeff Jeffies Jeffie Jeff Jeff Jeff Jeff Jeff Jeffies Jeffie

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Posted by: Mr Godlike.6098

Mr Godlike.6098

I said that before, I say it this time – I predict more nerfs. PVP team and balance skill team don’t work with each other. So in next season maybe we will get usable amulet with healing power while ,,balance team" will nerf healing skills and traits more. Sorry but most balance updates didn’t had sense in case of ele.

The elementalist is celestial by nature so they’ll probably bring the celestial amulet back instead of working on improvements, which is more demanding. One thing is certain: they can’t balance skills properly at all and the ele lead doesn’t know how the class functions.

I don’t remember any time when dev’s seen their mistake and rewinded nerfs/buffs. Probably we will never see celestial amulet back.

Was depressed ele…now depressed druid
Kawaleria (KW)

(edited by Mr Godlike.6098)

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Posted by: FrostDraco.8306

FrostDraco.8306

The elementalist is celestial by nature so they’ll probably bring the celestial amulet back instead of working on improvements, which is more demanding. One thing is certain: they can’t balance skills properly at all and the ele lead doesn’t know how the class functions.

So you are mad because they removed a cheesy jack of all trades bunker build? Then you make the claim ele is celestial by nature.

I can’t even.

Ele has been at the top of the food chain for the longest. The same reason you love the class, is the same reason they have been nerfing it. Food for thought.

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Posted by: Senario.2038

Senario.2038

The elementalist is celestial by nature so they’ll probably bring the celestial amulet back instead of working on improvements, which is more demanding. One thing is certain: they can’t balance skills properly at all and the ele lead doesn’t know how the class functions.

So you are mad because they removed a cheesy jack of all trades bunker build? Then you make the claim ele is celestial by nature.

I can’t even.

Ele has been at the top of the food chain for the longest. The same reason you love the class, is the same reason they have been nerfing it. Food for thought.

Now I pose to you a question, is it justified to leave a class with absolutely 0 reason to play the game? Want to play PVP? Nah choose something else, want to play WvW? Groups have started to take other water field generating classes.

Want to play PvE? Ele is being phased out even in their best fights like Gorseval only being kept around because they have the only weapon that can clear structures while on stack. (aka if you’re the only one with it calling you the “best” is honestly not a big deal. Bc you’re the only one competing for the spot).

I don’t think it is entirely fair to say that Ele players want the class to be OP. They just don’t want to be useless in every mode. And no, saying “Well other classes had their turn so now it is yours” is not an argument…it is defending extremely bad balance.

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Posted by: Mr Godlike.6098

Mr Godlike.6098

So you are mad because they removed a cheesy jack of all trades bunker build? Then you make the claim ele is celestial by nature.

I can’t even.

Ele has been at the top of the food chain for the longest. The same reason you love the class, is the same reason they have been nerfing it. Food for thought.

Ele is celestial by nature – skilled ele play start’s when player learns to use all attuments (not stay in just one) to mix skills to adapt do different scenarios.

You sound like somebody struggled with celestial ele’s of the past but truth is:

you don’t now how to kill a build in this game → you don’t know it’s mechanics and how to counter it. That’s all. For example -good signet necro killed that build easy.

Currently ele is mostly dead (pvp) cause by design is jack of all trades. Removal of celestial (which was abused by other classes in season 1) crippled it’s main mechanics. That forced ele to use only one amulet that could provide survivability after HoT power and sustain creep →Cleric. And now arena.net marketing side decided that pvp must be faster paced so removal of cleric. That happened with terrible balance patch that killed other dps alternatives so we’re now must compete with classes that all will be doing better job in their role’s than ele.

Want heal? Druid will be better, he can sustain both power and condi, really fast with staff and s/d setup, has fair chance to win 1v1 and can ress team mates in most situations. What ele can do better than druid? Druid is true jack of all trades now, better then celestial ele.

Maybe dps? Maruder tempest start’s overloading….ow he’s dead from auto attacks of thief and rev…also 100 times interrupted.

Hold point, stale fight? Scrapper laugh at you, goes rampage in you face or goes stealth, Symbolic DH pull’s ageis from his a#@, rev get’s stability from DODGE.

Most ele want’s fair chance to compete with meta and not be considered 3th,4th replacement of class x.

Was depressed ele…now depressed druid
Kawaleria (KW)

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Posted by: FrostDraco.8306

FrostDraco.8306

The elementalist is celestial by nature so they’ll probably bring the celestial amulet back instead of working on improvements, which is more demanding. One thing is certain: they can’t balance skills properly at all and the ele lead doesn’t know how the class functions.

So you are mad because they removed a cheesy jack of all trades bunker build? Then you make the claim ele is celestial by nature.

I can’t even.

Ele has been at the top of the food chain for the longest. The same reason you love the class, is the same reason they have been nerfing it. Food for thought.

Now I pose to you a question, is it justified to leave a class with absolutely 0 reason to play the game? Want to play PVP? Nah choose something else, want to play WvW? Groups have started to take other water field generating classes.

Want to play PvE? Ele is being phased out even in their best fights like Gorseval only being kept around because they have the only weapon that can clear structures while on stack. (aka if you’re the only one with it calling you the “best” is honestly not a big deal. Bc you’re the only one competing for the spot).

I don’t think it is entirely fair to say that Ele players want the class to be OP. They just don’t want to be useless in every mode. And no, saying “Well other classes had their turn so now it is yours” is not an argument…it is defending extremely bad balance.

In response to your question, no, I don’t think that is justified. But that’s not what is happening.

Ele has been strong for a long time, and is still strong, however those that play ele all the time, will have felt the nerfs harder than someone like me. However to sit here and say the class is useless? Bullocks. Just because ele isn’t the best at everything or a particular thing doesn’t make it useless. That is the definition of being a jack of all trades.

Also this person is going full celestial, of course he’s going to feel like the class is useless because he chose stats that don’t do anything well. A celestial anything isn’t good at any particular one thing. He is being unreasonable. Pick a stat you want to have to most of, therefore you do that thing, By choosing celestial, he is basically setting himself up to be useless, and/or good at nothing. It’s the nature of the stats.

I don’t think ele is the best at anything, I honestly don’t know. But what I do know is they have been in the top meta bracket for all game modes for the longest time. And they are still that way in all but pvp. Why does ele deserve to be good at everything when other classes struggle to be good at even one thing?

Someone brought up theif dps, when that’s about all theives do. Never mind the fact they have been consistently nerfed for years, and before daredevil was considered one of the worse classes in the game. Ele still does good dps, but not as good as a theifs. Once you factor in the other things theifs lack however, you can see why.

My point is Ele isn’t useless in every mode. Not even freaking close. By constantly comparing niche’s of other classes to ele, they are basically saying they want ele to do what X class does, which would be OP due to the fact ele does everything.

Ele is celestial by nature – skilled ele play start’s when player learns to use all attuments (not stay in just one) to mix skills to adapt do different scenarios. [

Are you saying I don’t do this? Are you saying I am not skilled (not that I claim to be), but i don’t understand why even say this unless you are trying to say I have these attributes, to which I say, prove it. You don’t know me.

You sound like somebody struggled with celestial ele’s of the past but truth is:

Assertion

you don’t now how to kill a build in this game -> you don’t know it’s mechanics and how to counter it. That’s all.

More assertions. You don’t know me. I’d suggest you stop asserting things about me, when it’s easy to dismiss baseless claims.

For example -good signet necro killed that build easy.

Or shout necro, or any decent necro in general. That’s what happens when you choose bunker stats vs a class that can out bunker you with dps stats.

Currently ele is mostly dead (pvp) cause by design is jack of all trades.

I don’t pvp on my ele, so I can’t speak on this. I do however still see ele’s in spvp, however they never give me much trouble on my necro.

Removal of celestial (which was abused by other classes in season 1) crippled it’s main mechanics.

Which mechanics are you refering to? I didn’t know that stat changes removes mechanics from a class. Last time I checked, they don’t. Ele was also one of the classes that abused the celestial amulet. Sounds like a crutch thats finally been kicked out from under some ele players.

That forced ele to use only one amulet that could provide survivability after HoT power and sustain creep ->Cleric.

Um what? Cleric’s was out before HoT, and HoT added more tanky amulet options so im calling bull on that. Have you even bothered to try any of the new amulets? Some of them have very nice stats selections.

And now arena.net marketing side decided that pvp must be faster paced so removal of cleric.

Can I get a source on that? I personally haven’t seen Anet say that, maybe I missed something.

Removing crutchy bunker builds isn’t just for faster play, it’s to stop some classes from being able to unfairly be unmovable due to cheesy builds. Like what happened with the Celestial gear. It became a crutch for anyone that didn’t want to take risk. It was too safe.

That happened with terrible balance patch that killed other dps alternatives so we’re now must compete with classes that all will be doing better job in their role’s than ele.

You can’t complain about DPS, then admit ele is a jack of all trades.

Want heal? Druid will be better, he can sustain both power and condi, really fast with staff and s/d setup, has fair chance to win 1v1 and can ress team mates in most situations. What ele can do better than druid? Druid is true jack of all trades now, better then celestial ele.

People don’t run celestial druid last time I checked. You are comparing non-celestial builds, to celestial ele. That is dishonest. Also ele heals are close to druid heals, so much so in fact people will replace druids with an ele on a regular basis. Just because ele isn’t “the best” doesn’t make it useless. It can still do the job pretty kitten well compared to the healing of all the classes.

Maybe dps? Maruder tempest start’s overloading….ow he’s dead from auto attacks of thief and rev…also 100 times interrupted.

You get stab and protection from overloading. Theif basilisk venom only has 1 stack now. 1-1=0, not -1. Rev, normally runs sword if power. Staff has a lot of cc, but how many staf revs are there? Not many.

You are complaining about an issue any class will have if they try to channel a nuke in the middle of a fight.

Hold point, stale fight? Scrapper laugh at you, goes rampage in you face or goes stealth, Symbolic DH pull’s ageis from his a#@, rev get’s stability from DODGE.

You mean scrapper, a class literally designed to bunk. EVERYTHING about engi’s is designed to sit on a point and not move. You want ele to do exactly that? And keep it’s dps, and support abilities? Pick one. Because if ele changes to become a bunker class they will lose all the other things that you may or may not like.

You are comparing other classes to ele, while forgetting that other classes don’t have those things either. You are crying about things that necro’s, mesmer’s, warrior’s, theive’s, and etc don’t have. You are just complaining that ele doesn’t do what this class does, then crying foul. If you want all that, why not go play those classes?

Most ele want’s fair chance to compete with meta and not be considered 3th,4th replacement of class x.

Go play a necro. Ele has ALWAYS been in the meta, and even with all the QQ about pvp, ele’s are still out in strong. Ele may not be the best at XY and Zed, but you will never see anyone turn down an ele for those things.

This season/expansion is the first time necro has EVER been meta, while ele has always been. Ele has been competing. Stop whining over non-issues.

(edited by FrostDraco.8306)

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Posted by: FrostDraco.8306

FrostDraco.8306

I want to punch frost draco in the face.

How many threads are you gonna follow me and say that? You are free to block me if you don’t like what I have to say, but sitting here saying you want to assault me is pathetic.

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Posted by: kdaddy.5431

kdaddy.5431

The elementalist is celestial by nature so they’ll probably bring the celestial amulet back instead of working on improvements, which is more demanding. One thing is certain: they can’t balance skills properly at all and the ele lead doesn’t know how the class functions.

So you are mad because they removed a cheesy jack of all trades bunker build? Then you make the claim ele is celestial by nature.

I can’t even.

Ele has been at the top of the food chain for the longest. The same reason you love the class, is the same reason they have been nerfing it. Food for thought.

I have to stop you for a sec, even though i agree eles need some retooling and probably shouldnt get cele ammy back but to say they been really good for a long time isnt exactly true.

I mean every class has had its up and downs. Before cele amulet eles were not very good. Used as a bunker class and bunker guardians were actually better. Even when they brought in cele amulet it was only the 2nd best class to cele engy. Once again it was elite but not the best.

You go to WTS 2 where the Abjured played 2 eles and lost. Even though ele was really strong it had weakness and counters to it. This was at a point where build diversity was really high. If you check the forums for a thief named Glyph he was playing bunker thief then and all the way into season 2 of Leagues until anet killed the build.

Season 1-2 warrior was trash and season 3 Dh had some had moments. But ATM eles are not useful in PvP at all. Having a good ele on your team can actually effect your team negatively, they have to be great and can not be countered. NA has always been a Pro ele, necro thief and Eu has always been Pro mesmer, guardian and warrior.

You are seeing no eles on either side, (except TCG but are expected to change the ele) no thieves and maybe 1 warrior.

Ele was a very good class for a short period of time, they were a needed role class before the D/D crisis and the HOT expansion. Ive rambled on but there have been 4 classes that can not be used in PvP at a decent level.

Its been warrior, thief, guardian and now ele. Saying hit had its moment in the sun is redundant because every class has had a big role in PvP since the launch. But only 4 have been unplayable at high level play.

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Posted by: Shadowflare.2759

Shadowflare.2759

The elementalist is celestial by nature so they’ll probably bring the celestial amulet back instead of working on improvements, which is more demanding. One thing is certain: they can’t balance skills properly at all and the ele lead doesn’t know how the class functions.

So you are mad because they removed a cheesy jack of all trades bunker build? Then you make the claim ele is celestial by nature.

I can’t even.

Ele has been at the top of the food chain for the longest. The same reason you love the class, is the same reason they have been nerfing it. Food for thought.

Now I pose to you a question, is it justified to leave a class with absolutely 0 reason to play the game? Want to play PVP? Nah choose something else, want to play WvW? Groups have started to take other water field generating classes.

Want to play PvE? Ele is being phased out even in their best fights like Gorseval only being kept around because they have the only weapon that can clear structures while on stack. (aka if you’re the only one with it calling you the “best” is honestly not a big deal. Bc you’re the only one competing for the spot).

I don’t think it is entirely fair to say that Ele players want the class to be OP. They just don’t want to be useless in every mode. And no, saying “Well other classes had their turn so now it is yours” is not an argument…it is defending extremely bad balance.

In response to your question, no, I don’t think that is justified. But that’s not what is happening.

Ele has been strong for a long time, and is still strong, however those that play ele all the time, will have felt the nerfs harder than someone like me. However to sit here and say the class is useless? Bullocks. Just because ele isn’t the best at everything or a particular thing doesn’t make it useless. That is the definition of being a jack of all trades.

Also this person is going full celestial, of course he’s going to feel like the class is useless because he chose stats that don’t do anything well. A celestial anything isn’t good at any particular one thing. He is being unreasonable. Pick a stat you want to have to most of, therefore you do that thing, By choosing celestial, he is basically setting himself up to be useless, and/or good at nothing. It’s the nature of the stats.

I don’t think ele is the best at anything, I honestly don’t know. But what I do know is they have been in the top meta bracket for all game modes for the longest time. And they are still that way in all but pvp. Why does ele deserve to be good at everything when other classes struggle to be good at even one thing?

Someone brought up theif dps, when that’s about all theives do. Never mind the fact they have been consistently nerfed for years, and before daredevil was considered one of the worse classes in the game. Ele still does good dps, but not as good as a theifs. Once you factor in the other things theifs lack however, you can see why.

My point is Ele isn’t useless in every mode. Not even freaking close. By constantly comparing niche’s of other classes to ele, they are basically saying they want ele to do what X class does, which would be OP due to the fact ele does everything.

Been staying away from the forums since that horrific patch, but man oh man I’m greeted by this when I do decide to take a peek again.

Before I address your points, I just want to put this out there: From what you’ve written, you don’t seem to have much history with ele. In fact you probably don’t have too much knowledge about the history of the game. I’d like to write this off as you just omitting facts to make your argument appear stronger, but to leave out all the other context is pretty disingenuous.

Let’s first get one thing straight though, unlike what a lot of forum warriors like to pretend, elementalists has not always been meta. For probably the first year of the game, ele was actually considered trash, especially in pvp. If it hadn’t been this way, this video wouldn’t have existed, and by the way, this video always shows a bit of why thieves were nerfed so much since the beginning.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh5zjK7ITpQ

And even in the times that elementalists HAD been in the meta, it’s usually besides many other classes that could compete with the ele for its niche. Only the celestial ele ever outclassed everyone by being able to “do everything”. I put this in quotes because in reality, it was still not the best at everything, it was just competent at everything at the same time compared to the other classes.

All in all, the class suffers from the design flaw that it’s meant to be a jack of all trades, which both you and the person you quoted from, seem to acknowledge. But you in particular don’t seem to realize that eles are currently in a state where it isn’t really even possible to be a “jack of all trades” in PVP (and I’m betting this is the game mode where people are primarily complaining), because there is no amulet that can actually provide all the necessary stats now. Ever since they removed celestial amulet, eles have had to choose stats that forced them into niches, which contradicts elementalist’s entire class design.

After that, eles changed to cleric because the only niches left is healer/bunker and DPS, and DPS is out of the question because eles lack active mitigation skills, and being glass cannon is useless when everyone else can just mitigate our burst while we have to eat theirs. After all, our sustain comes from eating damage and healing back up. And then they took away cleric, AND nerfed our traits, while giving pretty much nothing back.

So yea, now the class is in a terrible place in PvP where we don’t really provide much. We can’t do what the class was designed to do as a jack of all trades, and we can’t support/DPS as well as the competitors because what we used to have as advantages have systematically been removed/trivialized. Eles are not complaining because they can’t be the best at everything, they’re complaining because, at least in PvP, Anet has taken away just about everything that makes the class competitive.

By the way, your comment about the guy using celestial doesn’t make sense. PvP doesn’t allow celestial stats. If it did, the complaints probably wouldn’t be here. And I’ll be honest, fine class balance in other modes don’t matter in most situations.

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Posted by: Senario.2038

Senario.2038

Snip

Let me address your “argument”. First of all Ele is “still strong”. Now the classical definition of this is that they have a role in all game modes or at least 2/3. Dps in PvE typically, some sort of role in PvP (I do not claim to speak on specifics), and of course WvW which is typically backline for water fields and meteor finish.

Lets look at PvP – Ele has very little active mitigation, low armor, low hp, and high healing power scaling with low base heals. This essentially forces ele to need at the very least healing power, vit, and toughness. Celestial worked so well bc it also gave them damage however imo being forced to build healing power is holding many builds back. That said it is clear that no team picks up ele anymore and would rather go for a more self sustaining class. You can try ele but that doesn’t mean it’ll be any good.

Chances are, and this is an assumption don’t get your panties in a bunch, you think ele is still good in PvE. Well you would be wrong on that part. Dagger Warhorn is no longer viable as on a good day with a perfect rotation and permanent alacrity it gets sub 30k dps. You need minimum 30k to be viable if you play a dps class which ele is in PvE.

You can say “oh wait Ele is supposed to be absurdly strong on big immobile targets while thief should be good vs small mobile targets!”. Fair argument however the data shows us otherwise.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4zoswe/qt_gorseval_speed_kill_420_left/

Enter qT’s speedruns with 10 people. This is gorseval, one of the top two fights ele SHOULD dominate in. Their dps should be easily over the top of what thief can do due to not only needing to clear orbs but also the fact that gorseval is a big immobile target with the only better target for ele being keep construct. Now that you’ve looked at the topic do you notice anything weird?

OH They only took 1 ele, and they didn’t do it for dps reasons. They did it because ele has the only weapon with enough range to stay on stack and kill orbs. And to be perfectly honest a dragonhunter could do that now with the new symbols. They replaced every single ele with a daredevil on a fight that is supposed to favor ele.

What do you have to say to this? This is the ideal time for ele to shine and yet they are not in an extremely optimal setting. Is it still fine? No of course not, that was rhetorical. In PvE once you get to high level play doing many different things at average effectiveness is by far not as good as specializing in one thing. Ele was one of the two classes I believe were built for pure power dps, the other being thief and unfortunately when you have classes designed to function like this in PvE consistency is important. Not only is ele no longer consistent but its dps is in the pits compared to thief and it does not offer enough team utility to make up for the lacking of dps.

My perception is that people vastly underestimate what a thief can do. I’ve spent sparse amounts of time on thief and what I can tell you is that it is infinitely more survivable and easy to play than Ele as it takes 7% less damage base, has three dodges now, and isn’t limited by cooldowns(making it much more consistent at dps without alacrity). Saying that “oh all they do is dps” is interesting bc that is almost all of what ele does too. I never agreed to having tempest be a support spec and honestly I don’t care about the supportive features getting nerfed, interestingly enough thief venom heal will heal the thief for an absurd 8k+ and the team for 5k on 5 targets which would almost be better than old wash the pain away if it was on even 10 sec less cooldown. However a damage class having to compete over damage and not suitability is absurd. There is a trend with ele and engi in that more effort = less reward and anet rarely if ever looks to improve that situation. Even more so when they buff up classes whose optimal rotation is 111111 and occasionally 2 and maybe 1 other skill.

As for WvW – some guilds still take ele, but I know T1 and a lot of them have been experimenting with lower cooldown water fields as ele’s is now on terribly long ones. There is so much AoE that meteor is less needed as well.

Now answer me this. Why should a class not do anything well if they do a little bit of everything? By your logic guardian does a little of everything. Team heals, team boons, damage, and yet it has solid damage builds. Revenant can do pretty much everything too, and they’ve been in a good spot for a while. Due to the design nature of the game every class can do a little bit of everything. The difference with ele is that you have to use your traits to trait for what you want to specialize in instead of simply taking the damage traits and being self sufficient.

Also you seem to ignore that Ele is surprisingly difficult to play. People may not think so but playing ele is a lot about aftercast cancelling and that is what separates the great players from the bad ones. As it stands Anet offers two classes that are sufficiently difficult to be considered high-skill. Engineer and Ele. Both of which can do lots of things well and both of which are being phased out of various metas bc they don’t specialize in anything enough to be worth taking.

Making a character weak at everything bc they can do everything works for a competitive moba with very simple controls and balancing. It does not work in an MMO where min maxing is very very prevalent and classes often can fill the same roles.

Edit: also you would be completely wrong about saying “Ele has been top tier forever” (paraphrasing). Ele was pretty bad early on, so bad people literally just told you to reroll thief bc you could do more and it was simpler to play. I don’t find it right to ask ele players to put in 2-3x the work of other classes and get 1/2 the reward. The same goes with Engi players.

(edited by Senario.2038)

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Posted by: Wolfric.9380

Wolfric.9380

You can write alot but while cleric removal might be helpful for PvP speed, dampening support ele, the overal nerf to the class feels like a 5 minutes decision like lets dump ele.
Problem is it was like we don´t care about anny build beside meta support and PvE DPS builds.

(edited by Wolfric.9380)

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Posted by: Benevolence.8019

Benevolence.8019

I play fresh air burst and dunk most people with it.

But it’s a very high skill-capacity build to master. The damage is unparalleled though. I get top damage or kills most games.

Imo it’s just as good as thief at being the roamed (and it kittens on thieves).

Ele is fine. Just learn to adapt and don’t suck.

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Posted by: Setsunayaki.4907

Setsunayaki.4907

The way I feel about Elementalist is like this…

The other classes are like the Teachers….
…while Elementalist is like pretty having the most amazing Substitute Teacher ever conceived… willing to help while accepting all the risk and responsibility of the Standing Teacher….

However, regardless the skill or ability of a Substitute Teacher… A Substitute Teacher is still in the very end of the day, a Substitute Teacher… One that will be remembered..

In short, I feel that Elementalist is a Secondary Class right now compared to others and the one thing everyone wants is for Elementalist to play like a Primary Class. Problem with that is that somethings gotta give. Either lose the flexibility that substitute teachers have (Subs have the ability to float around and adjust to situations, teachers do not have that right or luxury and have to maintain themselves in their own classrooms) and become teachers, or strengthen the level of flexibility that the Elementalist actually has…

…and that exists in the skill trees and that is what happens.. Non-Celestial Builds mean a focus in one area while giving up a lot. Celestial Builds means having an “Absolute Balance” that actually requires a lot of experience and a strong mind to play. I remember using weapons under celestial builds with specific intent to TIP the balance into one of the areas. Full Set Celestial Armor and Trinkets, but then Berserker, Knights, Cleric, or Rampaging Weapons…. and carrying around excess equipment to adjust to situations…

I still read about Fresh Air Builds and what I have to say is this…

I left this game around 1.5 – 2 years ago. I recently bought HoT, so I am behind…However, the fact that people still talk to me about the main damage build being a Fresh Air build. and that was the final build I used prior to leaving the game makes me believe that a lot has not changed for Elementalist. ;(

I look at this thread and I see almost the exact same pattern from two years ago and wonder why things are so similar… I feel as nothing hasn’t truly changed and the class retains its set of problems.

People told me
“The solution to your problems is just playing another class”
and my reply was
“I don’t want to play another class… I want to log in, and know that my Elementalist is worth something… "

Is it so wrong to be loyal to one class regardless what happens to it?

The wheel of (mis)fortune has landed on Ele

in Elementalist

Posted by: Senario.2038

Senario.2038

I play fresh air burst and dunk most people with it.

But it’s a very high skill-capacity build to master. The damage is unparalleled though. I get top damage or kills most games.

Imo it’s just as good as thief at being the roamed (and it kittens on thieves).

Ele is fine. Just learn to adapt and don’t suck.

To be honest it sounds like you’re playing against bad players lol.

The wheel of (mis)fortune has landed on Ele

in Elementalist

Posted by: FrostDraco.8306

FrostDraco.8306

Snip

Let me address your “argument”. First of all Ele is “still strong”. Now the classical definition of this is that they have a role in all game modes or at least 2/3. Dps in PvE typically, some sort of role in PvP (I do not claim to speak on specifics), and of course WvW which is typically backline for water fields and meteor finish.

Having a role, does not mean being perfect at all roles. Or top tier. Think about the actual roles in the game, will anyone reject an ele that tries to fill them? In my experience, and from watching the forums, this answer has always been no. Ele may not be optimal, but I have never seen it rejected to fill a role in which is it possible to fill.

Lets look at PvP – Ele has very little active mitigation, low armor, low hp, and high healing power scaling with low base heals.

Stab, constant protection, invulns, projectile reflect, and massive self healing when in water. You could argue that you can’t use some of these things when you are stunned. But when you are not, you have the toons to survive. Ele is a squishy class tho, no argument on that.

This essentially forces ele to need at the very least healing power, vit, and toughness.

I don’t agree with that sentiment. It doesn’t force you to need those things, it forces you to consider your weakness.

Celestial worked so well bc it also gave them damage however imo being forced to build healing power is holding many builds back. That said it is clear that no team picks up ele anymore and would rather go for a more self sustaining class. You can try ele but that doesn’t mean it’ll be any good.

Which teams are you refering to? As for celestial, you basically just said players dont like to play with weaknesses, which is why the celestial build worked well. I can not agree with that playstyle. It’s a crutch.

Chances are, and this is an assumption don’t get your panties in a bunch, you think ele is still good in PvE.

Because it is.

Well you would be wrong on that part. Dagger Warhorn is no longer viable as on a good day with a perfect rotation and permanent alacrity it gets sub 30k dps.

And that’s an issue because? You do realize that warhorn is a support weapon?

You need minimum 30k to be viable if you play a dps class which ele is in PvE.

Well this is just wrong. Firstly who made this rule? I’ve never heard of it. Seems like nit-picking. And dagger/Wh is a support/dps build. Are you comparing full dps builds to a half support build?

You can say “oh wait Ele is supposed to be absurdly strong on big immobile targets while thief should be good vs small mobile targets!”. Fair argument however the data shows us otherwise.

I’ve never made this argument, because I know why ele is used on large hit boxes. Also again, you are compaing a class who’s niche is single target/cleave dps, to ele. What about everything else ele can do, which theif can not?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4zoswe/qt_gorseval_speed_kill_420_left/

Enter qT’s speedruns with 10 people. This is gorseval, one of the top two fights ele SHOULD dominate in.

You used the word should, which means you feel that ele should have higher dps than theif, on a single target. I can’t agree with that.

Their dps should be easily over the top of what thief can do due to not only needing to clear orbs but also the fact that gorseval is a big immobile target with the only better target for ele being keep construct. Now that you’ve looked at the topic do you notice anything weird?

People asking for their class to not have a single weakness or shortcoming? Nah, that’s very common in MMO’s.

OH They only took 1 ele, and they didn’t do it for dps reasons. They did it because ele has the only weapon with enough range to stay on stack and kill orbs. And to be perfectly honest a dragonhunter could do that now with the new symbols.

Dragon hunter always had the ability to use symbols, it’s just people chose not to. You just admitted that the problem here was the players.

They replaced every single ele with a daredevil on a fight that is supposed to favor ele.

YOU said it’s supposed to favor ele. You are looking at a speed run, in which people choose particular classes for dps. You still seem to ignore everything else an ele can do outside of dps, that a theif can not, which is plenty.

What do you have to say to this? This is the ideal time for ele to shine and yet they are not in an extremely optimal setting.

Theif does more dps than ele, that’s all they cared about in this run. Ele does more than just dps. Comparing the dps of a class that can only fulfil the role of tank or dps, to a class that can fill any role is dishonest.

Is it still fine? No of course not, that was rhetorical. In PvE once you get to high level play doing many different things at average effectiveness is by far not as good as specializing in one thing.

So you agree that the problem isn’t ele’s damage, but the class in general? You can’t buff damage without removing support or healing capabilities. It’s a very delicate balance. And notice how ele (even with people saying how weak iit is) is still accepted in all of these roles. I have never seen a raid that will reject an ele, for healing, or for dps. Using a speed run, which less than 2% even of the community actually even does, to show case a class needing a buff isn’t a good argument.

Ele was one of the two classes I believe were built for pure power dps, the other being thief and unfortunately when you have classes designed to function like this in PvE consistency is important.

I disagree. Ele and thief can both have condi meta playstyles. Both which are accepted in most if not all game modes. Only kicker is ele has way more support/healing options for the party than thief. Many players would rather take an ele, than a thief in unorganized groups.

Not only is ele no longer consistent but its dps is in the pits compared to thief and it does not offer enough team utility to make up for the lacking of dps.

Which is arguable because everyone still accepts ele in support roles. Also you are comparing a class that ONLY bring dps, to a class that brings party support, dishonest. You can’t seriously expect ele to have thief level dps in it’s current state.

My perception is that people vastly underestimate what a thief can do.

Or vastly over estimate it, which led to months of nerfs, and the crippling of every weapon set that isn’t staff in pve, and dagger/pistol in pvp.

I’ve spent sparse amounts of time on thief and what I can tell you is that it is infinitely more survivable and easy to play than Ele as it takes 7% less damage base, has three dodges now, and isn’t limited by cooldowns(making it much more consistent at dps without alacrity).

But it is limited by initiative. But you forget the main meat of a thief rotation is auto attacks, which you can not compare to on an ele. Not to forget thief dps isn’t aoe, in which ele’s is. Thief may take 7% less damage, but ele can heal the group and pump out perma protection. I’d call that even.

Saying that “oh all they do is dps” is interesting bc that is almost all of what ele does too.

Well it isn’t, and you even admit that below. The boons that an ele can provide are invaluable compared to thief dps. Replacing a thief with an ele in a 5 man, can prove useful, however its different in a 10 man where you have more room to replace an ele. If you complain about ele being replacable, I’d like you to look at necro, and thief, and engi, which are no only replaceable, but can be outright rejected for the only roles they can fill.

I never agreed to having tempest be a support spec and honestly I don’t care about the supportive features getting nerfed,

But ignoring the fact it is there, and the fact most, if not ll of the meta builds include it is dishonest.

  • interestingly enough thief venom heal will heal the thief for an absurd 8k+ and the team for 5k on 5 targets which would almost be better than old wash the pain away if it was on even 10 sec less cooldown.*

The keyword is IF. And looking at the build date, it hasnt been meta for some time, there’s a reason for that. And even on the meta venom share build, the damage is mediocre.

However a damage class having to compete over damage and not suitability is absurd. There is a trend with ele and engi in that more effort = less reward and anet rarely if ever looks to improve that situation. Even more so when they buff up classes whose optimal rotation is 111111 and occasionally 2 and maybe 1 other skill.

I don’t think about can argue over this. But ele is not nearly as hard to play as engi when it comes to getting even decent damage. Not even close. And ele healing is extremely simple. Same with support ele. Engi is only able to fill the dps role most of the time in groups, and even doing that it has trouble due to the long convoluted rotation. I get the point you are trying to make, but I don’t think the two are equal in terms of difficulty.

As for WvW – some guilds still take ele, but I know T1 and a lot of them have been experimenting with lower cooldown water fields as ele’s is now on terribly long ones. There is so much AoE that meteor is less needed as well.

I can’t really speak on this. When i do wvw, I only roam or havoc, and have never been in a wvw guild.

Now answer me this. Why should a class not do anything well if they do a little bit of everything?

The problem is ele does do everything decently. Ele doesnt do as much dps as a theif, but ele still does good dps. And ele may not heal as well as a druid, but ele still pump out good heals.

You are comparing a jack of all trades to classes that excel in a particular niche, then asking for ele to do that, AND keep its other efficiencies. Until they rework ele and change the class (which at then its a different class than the only you play), then I feel its in a decent spot compared to the rest of the classes.

  • By your logic guardian does a little of everything. Team heals, team boons, damage, and yet it has solid damage builds.*

And then look at all the problems guardian has that you are ignoring. So many problem people are outright denying guardians in higher tier fractal, and can be denied in raids.

Revenant can do pretty much everything too, and they’ve been in a good spot for a while.

Rev also received several nerfs, and has very restrictive builds. Even one stance in which people refuse to play.

Due to the design nature of the game every class can do a little bit of everything. The difference with ele is that you have to use your traits to trait for what you want to specialize in instead of simply taking the damage traits and being self sufficient.

Which is an issue. I doo agree on that, but even with this ele is STILL pumping out competitive dps. How is that fair to other classes?

Also you seem to ignore that Ele is surprisingly difficult to play.

I don’t ignore that, I just disagree. I play an ele, and I have never had a moment where I had no idea what skill to use to prevent myself from getting wrecked. I have had them planty on engi, their, and mesmer. Ele is very simple to play,.

Compare the 8 dps steps on a meta ele build (http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Tempest_-_Fresh_Air_DPS_) to an engi’s 31-32, which changes depending on your alacrity uptime, and quickness, in which one wrong choice can drop your dps SIGNIFICANTLY.

People may not think so but playing ele is a lot about aftercast cancelling and that is what separates the great players from the bad ones.

I have never seen anyone on this forum ever say this. Ever.

As it stands Anet offers two classes that are sufficiently difficult to be considered high-skill. Engineer and Ele.

Engineer and Mesmer*. Fixed that for ya.

Both of which can do lots of things well and both of which are being phased out of various metas bc they don’t specialize in anything enough to be worth taking.

LOL, did you forget necro can be outright denied in open world content if they are not condi?

Making a character weak at everything bc they can do everything works for a competitive moba with very simple controls and balancing.

You think moba’s are simple? Have you ever played dota 2? Come back after a few normal games and show me how even the low levels pub stomped you from lv1 onwards, and how many times you got one shotted by even tank characters because you don’t know the mechanics. You are trying to make ele seem like a difficult class to play, to which I think is laughable.

It does not work in an MMO where min maxing is very very prevalent and classes often can fill the same roles.

Min maxing isn’t prevalent in this game at all. I can show you real min maxing games. Games that will eat you out of a car and home with how much even the smallest stats cost, and how much they make a difference. If you think this game has prevalent min maxing, then i can not take you seriously.

Edit: also you would be completely wrong about saying “Ele has been top tier forever” (paraphrasing). Ele was pretty bad early on, so bad people literally just told you to reroll thief bc you could do more and it was simpler to play. I don’t find it right to ask ele players to put in 2-3x the work of other classes and get 1/2 the reward. The same goes with Engi players.

Ele’s put in half the work and get the same reward. Ele was bad early on because no one understood how the class worked. This isn’t a problem with the class, this is a problem with the players being ignorant. As players learned how to play ele has been in the meta for the longest. And reroll a thief? Do I need to show you countless theads where people are telling each other to stop playing a thief after Anet gutted acrobatics (an almost mandatory line), and nerfed multiple weapon sets, and still do so till this day?

Meta battle builds-

Engi builds:
1 raid, 3 fractal, 6 pvp

Ele builds:
5 raid, 3 fractal, 4 pvp

Rev builds:
2 raid, 1 fractal, 3 pvp

Guard builds:
2 raid, 2 fractal, 6 pvp

Remember you said ele isn’t doing good in pve? Why is it that ele has a decent amount of builds for every game mode? Compared to all classes? Your claims just do not match what we are seeing in game.

(edited by FrostDraco.8306)

The wheel of (mis)fortune has landed on Ele

in Elementalist

Posted by: FrostDraco.8306

FrostDraco.8306

I play fresh air burst and dunk most people with it.

But it’s a very high skill-capacity build to master. The damage is unparalleled though. I get top damage or kills most games.

Imo it’s just as good as thief at being the roamed (and it kittens on thieves).

Ele is fine. Just learn to adapt and don’t suck.

To be honest it sounds like you’re playing against bad players lol.

If he is playing against the same players and dunking them, wouldn’t that make you the bad one?

The wheel of (mis)fortune has landed on Ele

in Elementalist

Posted by: FrostDraco.8306

FrostDraco.8306

The way I feel about Elementalist is like this…

The other classes are like the Teachers….
…while Elementalist is like pretty having the most amazing Substitute Teacher ever conceived… willing to help while accepting all the risk and responsibility of the Standing Teacher….

However, regardless the skill or ability of a Substitute Teacher… A Substitute Teacher is still in the very end of the day, a Substitute Teacher… One that will be remembered..

In short, I feel that Elementalist is a Secondary Class right now compared to others and the one thing everyone wants is for Elementalist to play like a Primary Class. Problem with that is that somethings gotta give. Either lose the flexibility that substitute teachers have (Subs have the ability to float around and adjust to situations, teachers do not have that right or luxury and have to maintain themselves in their own classrooms) and become teachers, or strengthen the level of flexibility that the Elementalist actually has…

…and that exists in the skill trees and that is what happens.. Non-Celestial Builds mean a focus in one area while giving up a lot. Celestial Builds means having an “Absolute Balance” that actually requires a lot of experience and a strong mind to play. I remember using weapons under celestial builds with specific intent to TIP the balance into one of the areas. Full Set Celestial Armor and Trinkets, but then Berserker, Knights, Cleric, or Rampaging Weapons…. and carrying around excess equipment to adjust to situations…

I still read about Fresh Air Builds and what I have to say is this…

I left this game around 1.5 – 2 years ago. I recently bought HoT, so I am behind…However, the fact that people still talk to me about the main damage build being a Fresh Air build. and that was the final build I used prior to leaving the game makes me believe that a lot has not changed for Elementalist. ;(

I look at this thread and I see almost the exact same pattern from two years ago and wonder why things are so similar… I feel as nothing hasn’t truly changed and the class retains its set of problems.

People told me
“The solution to your problems is just playing another class”
and my reply was
“I don’t want to play another class… I want to log in, and know that my Elementalist is worth something… "

Is it so wrong to be loyal to one class regardless what happens to it?

Just like I am loyal to my necro. I agree with you, something has got to give. But when players only complain about the fact ele isn’t a teacher, and just a sub, instead of figuring out what can be done to change that I have an issue.

If they nerfed necro might generation, or condi I would no flinch an inch. Not only because I don’t care for condi, but because I know just how strong it is. I love the class because of how it plays, and it’s niche, not just because it does XYZ good compared to other classes.

It’s like when they nerfed Deathly chill. I could care less, because I knew just how strong it was on all builds.

The wheel of (mis)fortune has landed on Ele

in Elementalist

Posted by: Senario.2038

Senario.2038

Ele’s put in half the work and get the same reward. Ele was bad early on because no one understood how the class worked. This isn’t a problem with the class, this is a problem with the players being ignorant. As players learned how to play ele has been in the meta for the longest. And reroll a thief? Do I need to show you countless theads where people are telling each other to stop playing a thief after Anet gutted acrobatics (an almost mandatory line), and nerfed multiple weapon sets, and still do so till this day?

Meta battle builds-

Engi builds:
1 raid, 3 fractal, 6 pvp

Ele builds:
5 raid, 3 fractal, 4 pvp

Rev builds:
2 raid, 1 fractal, 3 pvp

Guard builds:
2 raid, 2 fractal, 6 pvp

Remember you said ele isn’t doing good in pve? Why is it that ele has a decent amount of builds for every game mode? Compared to all classes? Your claims just do not match what we are seeing in game.

I’m not even going to address the rest of your response in detail because it would take HOURS and honestly it would be an exhaustive post about how I disagree and you don’t understand ele considering you thought that ele even had a meta condi build and that Thief was entirely single target despite many of their attacks also cleaving. You simply are not worth my valuable time as you would likely stick to your guns and not be swayed. I have my opinion and it differs from yours considerably. If Ele gets nerfs next patch (and no buffs) maybe you’re right but if it gets nothing or buffs then I’m most certainly right in that they simply are too weak now to even be considered.

The amount of builds people put on Metabattle is not an indicator of how good they are tbh. The Auramancer spec is terrible for PvE. All the amount of builds on Metabattle shows is that people have gotten creative and thought it was a good idea to build x y and z. But it tells you nothing of the nuance of where you use these builds and why you use them. Condi Druid is on there but as far as I can tell it is actually only useful in 4-4-2 setups in organized groups. Otherwise it helps more with pugs to run healing gear.

I completely disagree with you on every point you tried to make

tbh I’m not even sure why you’re here when all you do is say “Ele needs to be bad at everything” and “Ele is fine”. Which are completely contradictory.

(edited by Senario.2038)

The wheel of (mis)fortune has landed on Ele

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Posted by: Gokil.2543

Gokil.2543

It’s pretty amusing that the same thing happened when I made a thread to discuss how to nerf DD ele in its prime. A whole lot of arguing about whether or not it should be.

I don’t really want to get into the endless discussion of how good or bad ele is, but I think it’s at least safe to say that it’s overall the worst class in pvp now. Necro, warrior, guardian, revenant, mesmer, thief, ranger, engineer. Relatively speaking they’re all more viable.

Anet has a history, from seasons 1, 2 and 3, to overbuff the lowest hanging fruit severely. When warrior and guardian were at a time the worst class, they got catapulted past the competition in the following season.

Point of this thread was sort of to speculate on how anet was going to do it this time, thought it’d be funny to guess some absurd things and see them come true. Either that, or discuss what a sensible way would be to do it.

[Walk] Elemelentalist
Youtube

The wheel of (mis)fortune has landed on Ele

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Posted by: Wolfric.9380

Wolfric.9380

so we can expect double damage on phönix next season …..

The wheel of (mis)fortune has landed on Ele

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Posted by: Ganathar.4956

Ganathar.4956

Lets look at PvP – Ele has very little active mitigation, low armor, low hp, and high healing power scaling with low base heals.

Stab, constant protection, invulns, projectile reflect, and massive self healing when in water. You could argue that you can’t use some of these things when you are stunned. But when you are not, you have the toons to survive. Ele is a squishy class tho, no argument on that.

Your post is way too long for me to bother with replying to everything, but I just wanted to talk about this bit.

Ele stability is not anything amazing really. If you don’t use armor of earth, you only get stab from overloads if traited, which nobody uses just for stability. Stability is there because they have the longest casts in the game, and leave you vulnerable by giving your attunement a 20 sec cooldown.

Constant protection is not a thing unless you spec earth. As soon as you spec earth, you are no longer capable of being a damage-focused elementalist.

Also, ele barely has any blocks, invulns, and the ones that they do have are on massive cooldowns when compared to other professions. I think that only necromancers are worse than eles in this category.

You are spot on in terms of projectile reflect, this may be the only decent defense damage eles have.

Massive self healing is not a thing if you are a damage dealer. Ele heals scale a lot with healing power, which means that the base heals are pitifully low. The total healing of a damage ele is barely higher than that of a thief. Damage DH completely blows damage ele out of the water in this depatment. Pun intended. Also, eles need to attune to water, which makes them completely incapable of applying any pressure.

I do agree that protection, reflects and healing can be great. However, you have to bunker up both with traits and stats, if you want them to work properly. This was essentially Senario’s point as far as I can tell.

The wheel of (mis)fortune has landed on Ele

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Posted by: BlackBeard.2873

BlackBeard.2873

I play fresh air burst and dunk most people with it.

But it’s a very high skill-capacity build to master. The damage is unparalleled though. I get top damage or kills most games.

Imo it’s just as good as thief at being the roamed (and it kittens on thieves).

Ele is fine. Just learn to adapt and don’t suck.

Yea…all that map mobility…all that hard mitigation….those incredibly short CD’s on your burst skills…. TOTALLY on par with a thief/revenant for roaming dps.

The wheel of (mis)fortune has landed on Ele

in Elementalist

Posted by: FrostDraco.8306

FrostDraco.8306

tbh I’m not even sure why you’re here when all you do is say “Ele needs to be bad at everything” and “Ele is fine”. Which are completely contradictory.

This proves you don’t agree with, lest even read my whole post. This is a strawman, and I am seriously not going to waste my time on someone who only reads half of what my actually argument is.

And since when is “Ele is decent at everything”, or “Ele is a good substitute”, saying that ele needs to be bad at everything? It’s almost like you didn’t even bother to read what I wrote, and from what you say, you didn’t bother. If you can’t respond to my actual argument, then I’d ask you not to bother responding at all.

The wheel of (mis)fortune has landed on Ele

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Posted by: Senario.2038

Senario.2038

tbh I’m not even sure why you’re here when all you do is say “Ele needs to be bad at everything” and “Ele is fine”. Which are completely contradictory.

This proves you don’t agree with, lest even read my whole post. This is a strawman, and I am seriously not going to waste my time on someone who only reads half of what my actually argument is.

And since when is “Ele is decent at everything”, or “Ele is a good substitute”, saying that ele needs to be bad at everything? It’s almost like you didn’t even bother to read what I wrote, and from what you say, you didn’t bother. If you can’t respond to my actual argument, then I’d ask you not to bother responding at all.

And saying “I would disagree in general” isnt saying I disagree? Highly obnoxious and assumptive of you to think I didnt read it because I refused to waste time on a 5 hr reply that you would dismiss because your ego wouldnt allow a different opinion .

The fact is you act contrarian to all the evidence provided to you in this thread and your opinion on ele becomes ever more pointless because you put out blatantly wrong statements like ele has a condi build or that the amount of builds placed on metabattle determines viability. The fact that you have so much of an ego that you think that me disagreeing with you means I didnt read your post is astounding. I read it, and it is a waste of time reasoning with somebody who will stick to their guns not to mention I would disagree with upwards of 90% of your arguments.

The ele forms clearly have a different opinion than you and we can back it up with evidence. Again, if ele gets more straight up nerfs maybe you’re right and ele was fine. But if nothing happens or it gets buffs it is more likely that it is weak right now as shown by usage of classes in raids, pvp, and wvw.

You think you are clever but really youre just a contrarian who thinks he is a special snowflake despite several players disagreeing and you being unable to handle it. There is a reason somebody keeps saying they want to punch you in the face. You have an attitude that reflects that response.

I can respond to whoever I want. If you cant handle it I suggest you go somewhere else.

(edited by Senario.2038)

The wheel of (mis)fortune has landed on Ele

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Posted by: Supreme.3164

Supreme.3164

The elementalist is celestial by nature so they’ll probably bring the celestial amulet back instead of working on improvements, which is more demanding. One thing is certain: they can’t balance skills properly at all and the ele lead doesn’t know how the class functions.

So you are mad because they removed a cheesy jack of all trades bunker build? Then you make the claim ele is celestial by nature.

I can’t even.

Ele has been at the top of the food chain for the longest. The same reason you love the class, is the same reason they have been nerfing it. Food for thought.

Ele is indeed celestial by nature @Xil is correct on that:

The dev himself confirms the idea of ele being a celestial class by design and you don’t need even a dev to prove that…just look at ele weapon sets and look how every each one of them has a mix of direct, condi dmg with healing

The wheel of (mis)fortune has landed on Ele

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Posted by: Senario.2038

Senario.2038

The elementalist is celestial by nature so they’ll probably bring the celestial amulet back instead of working on improvements, which is more demanding. One thing is certain: they can’t balance skills properly at all and the ele lead doesn’t know how the class functions.

So you are mad because they removed a cheesy jack of all trades bunker build? Then you make the claim ele is celestial by nature.

I can’t even.

Ele has been at the top of the food chain for the longest. The same reason you love the class, is the same reason they have been nerfing it. Food for thought.

Ele is indeed celestial by nature @Xil is correct on that:

The dev himself confirms the idea of ele being a celestial class by design and you don’t need even a dev to prove that…just look at ele weapon sets and look how every each one of them has a mix of direct, condi dmg with healing

Who is this dev, does he still work at Anet? He seems like he understands ele at least somewhat better than Karl. And doesn’t seem to dislike the class (again like a certain sub group of the balance team currently).

Only thing I really disagree with him in is the jack of all trades type comment as it no longer applies. Either you are near the top or you aren’t worth anything as in the case of engi. Jack of all trades only really is a good spec in PvP situations and never in PvE situations. That and guard and rev do a little bit of everything too.

(edited by Senario.2038)

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Posted by: Supreme.3164

Supreme.3164

Here

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Isaiah_Cartwright

I’m afraid that he’s part of the balance team, his role as skill balancer…was well known by the GW1 community, he’s the one behind the famous smiter’s boon nerf (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Talk:Isaiah's_Balance)

I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s the one behind RTL nerf, he clearly states in the video that he never wanted eles to be more mobile than other professions (among other things)

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Posted by: Senario.2038

Senario.2038

Here

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Isaiah_Cartwright

I’m afraid that he’s part of the balance team, his role as skill balancer…was well known by the GW1 community, he’s the one behind the famous smiter’s boon nerf (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Talk:Isaiah's_Balance)

I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s the one behind RTL nerf, he clearly states in the video that he never wanted eles to be more mobile than other professions (among other things)

That is unfortunate. Somewhere along the line it seems something got lost and maybe we really don’t have somebody who does put a lot of thought into the nerfs.

Bc even if Rtl was on a 10 second cooldown it wouldn’t be more mobility currently than thief or druid o-o. And that is assuming it is 20 sec on miss and 10 sec on hit (traited).

Any respect I had for him for the short time I thought he may be half decent just evaporated lol.

Could you explain to me what happened with smiter’s boon? I never played Gw1 so I am unfamiliar with it.

(edited by Senario.2038)

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Posted by: FrostDraco.8306

FrostDraco.8306

tbh I’m not even sure why you’re here when all you do is say “Ele needs to be bad at everything” and “Ele is fine”. Which are completely contradictory.

This proves you don’t agree with, lest even read my whole post. This is a strawman, and I am seriously not going to waste my time on someone who only reads half of what my actually argument is.

And since when is “Ele is decent at everything”, or “Ele is a good substitute”, saying that ele needs to be bad at everything? It’s almost like you didn’t even bother to read what I wrote, and from what you say, you didn’t bother. If you can’t respond to my actual argument, then I’d ask you not to bother responding at all.

And saying “I would disagree in general” isnt saying I disagree? Highly obnoxious and assumptive of you to think I didnt read it because I refused to waste time on a 5 hr reply that you would dismiss because your ego wouldnt allow a different opinion .

Again, you attack a straw man instead of my actual argument. Saying you disagree in general, says nothing about what you disagree with, which means I can draw nothing from that. In addition, you state I said something that I never did, to also say you disagree with. Don’t get mad because I pointed out that I never said that. Also you are talking to someone that has the opposite of an ego. Having a stance and being willing to argue for it is not ego. You seem to think all opinions are valid. I’m not that kind of person. If you can’t at least give a decent argument for why you think the way you do, why should anyone be inclined to believe you? Or even consider it.

The fact is you act contrarian

Wrong. The fact is I act contrarian to YOU. I agreed with several of the statements of other people in this thread. Spare me your selective memory.

to all the evidence provided to you in this thread

Statements, anecdotes, and conjecture is not evidence. Having a dev say “Hey this is the design behind ele” however is.

and your opinion on ele becomes ever more pointless because you put out blatantly wrong statements like ele has a condi build

It does in fact have a condi build, but I never said anything about how viable that build is.

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Elementalist_-_D/F_Signet_Condi
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Elementalist_-_D/D_Conditions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OH-aB4mwAOk

Hey everyone, I guess those aren’t condi builds. What a joke.

or that the amount of builds placed on metabattle determines viability.

Which I never said, strawman again. This is getting old.

The fact that you have so much of an ego that you think that me disagreeing with you means I didnt read your post is astounding.

And this proves you either didn’t read, or understand that post either. What I said was that you disagreed with a point that I never made. You are intellectually bankrupt and its quite sad.

I read it, and it is a waste of time reasoning with somebody who will stick to their guns not to mention I would disagree with upwards of 90% of your arguments.

Then why are you still here? And if you actually did read it, why are you saying I said things I never said? Are you done lying?

The ele forms clearly have a different opinion than you

Again, you are talking to me like I care. If you can’t be bothered to argue for your position, then you are free to leave. I’m not holding a gun to your head. But instead you resort to name calling.

and we can back it up with evidence.

Conjecture, anecdotes, and opinions are not evidence. You have lied several times towards me in this thread. Why on earth should i believe your anecdotes?

Again, if ele gets more straight up nerfs maybe you’re right and ele was fine. But if nothing happens or it gets buffs it is more likely that it is weak right now as shown by usage of classes in raids, pvp, and wvw.

I never said ele needs nerfs. I said it needs changes. It’s fine in the way it is, as in it could be worse. It could be necro, forced into one build by other players. It could be guardian, have a ton of bugs. It could be engi, have an overly complicated rotation or okayish dps. But it’s not. If players want ele to fill a niche they are gonna need to give up something. Or leave it the way it is.

You think you are clever

I think you are confusing me with someone who cares enough to be clever. I stated my position. Nothing clever or sneaky about it.

but really youre just a contrarian who thinks he is a special snowflake despite several players disagreeing and you being unable to handle it.

I’m unable to handle it? Sorry but which of us is getting upset enough to want to enact violence? But I’M unable to handle it? I can’t even.

There is a reason somebody keeps saying they want to punch you in the face. You have an attitude that reflects that response.

Or they just really have a messed up temper. It’s not my issue. The fact they feel the need to go that far shows they are not mentally stable. But if they wanna go there, bring it on.

I can respond to whoever I want. If you cant handle it I suggest you go somewhere else.

And so can I. if you can’t handle me saying things about ele you disagree with, I suggest you go elsewhere. I’m here to stay buddy. You can keep your pitiful ad homs and justifications for violence to yourself. Never once have I said I wanted to harm anyone in this thread. But I’M the one who can’t handle it.

kitten please.

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Posted by: FrostDraco.8306

FrostDraco.8306

The elementalist is celestial by nature so they’ll probably bring the celestial amulet back instead of working on improvements, which is more demanding. One thing is certain: they can’t balance skills properly at all and the ele lead doesn’t know how the class functions.

So you are mad because they removed a cheesy jack of all trades bunker build? Then you make the claim ele is celestial by nature.

I can’t even.

Ele has been at the top of the food chain for the longest. The same reason you love the class, is the same reason they have been nerfing it. Food for thought.

Ele is indeed celestial by nature @Xil is correct on that:

The dev himself confirms the idea of ele being a celestial class by design and you don’t need even a dev to prove that…just look at ele weapon sets and look how every each one of them has a mix of direct, condi dmg with healing

Thank you for actual confirmation that a dev said that.

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Posted by: Senario.2038

Senario.2038

The ele forms clearly have a different opinion than you

Again, you are talking to me like I care. If you can’t be bothered to argue for your position, then you are free to leave. I’m not holding a gun to your head. But instead you resort to name calling.

kitten please.

Just paraphrasing here but you CLEARLY care, considering you spend so much time responding to me. If you didn’t you’d drop the subject and not waste your time on it.

You can cry about ad homenim and logical fallacies all you want but I tried reasoning with you at first. Pointing out fallacies and crying foul when I originally tried to be reasonable with you just shows you don’t have an argument.

How exactly do you propose ele give up a niche if they want to fufill a role? Any more than they already do having to take water or earth for tankiness, fire or air for dps? You’re arguing that they should give up more than taking two traitlines of three to fufill a role. Elites are obviously geared towards a certain role and while we only have one right now if more come out we can more properly spec for dps or for healing which would be tempest right now.

Honestly, you’re obnoxious and I will continue to bother you so long as you care enough to respond. As far as I’m concerned? Your opinion isn’t relevant to Ele because you offer nothing useful. You cry foul and say I put forth violence when I simply point out that others have a negative opinion of you because of your own attitude.

You literally linked a Metabattle build for condi that ANYBODY could’ve put up not to mention they were both over 150 days old (one of which is almost a year old now) and NEITHER Of which use the new trait system. The fact that you even THINK that this is valid for proving your point just makes your point ever more irrelevant. Neither of those builds are a reasonable pointer to ele actually having a condi build. And obviously ele condi is in the toilet right now.

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Posted by: Supreme.3164

Supreme.3164

Here

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Isaiah_Cartwright

I’m afraid that he’s part of the balance team, his role as skill balancer…was well known by the GW1 community, he’s the one behind the famous smiter’s boon nerf (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Talk:Isaiah's_Balance)

I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s the one behind RTL nerf, he clearly states in the video that he never wanted eles to be more mobile than other professions (among other things)

That is unfortunate. Somewhere along the line it seems something got lost and maybe we really don’t have somebody who does put a lot of thought into the nerfs.

Bc even if Rtl was on a 10 second cooldown it wouldn’t be more mobility currently than thief or druid o-o. And that is assuming it is 20 sec on miss and 10 sec on hit (traited).

Any respect I had for him for the short time I thought he may be half decent just evaporated lol.

Could you explain to me what happened with smiter’s boon? I never played Gw1 so I am unfamiliar with it.

Smiter’s Boon is a Monk skill in GW1 , it was used during the first years of Gw1 pvp by monk player traiting smiting line ( 1vs1 trait line for monks in gw1).
https://wiki.guildwars.com/index.php?title=Smiter%27s_Boon&oldid=239465

Basically you could increase the healing and energy gaining capabilities of your team by 100%, like imagine a war with healing signet healing for 1k each sec..yeah the same effect

You could have a team in permanent berseker mod while being immortal…

The skill got reduced by 3/4 in efficiency and CD tripled from 30s to 90s

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Posted by: kdaddy.5431

kdaddy.5431

I dont know what everyones long posts are about. Let me sum it up.

Ele was bad when the game first game out, ele was the power house when cele amulet came in. Ele was god like with the 30-30-30 traits and now ele is the worst class in the game.

Seriously some of these posts are getting silly, i wont say who but 2 people are actually starting to attack each other and children school gets out at 3:15 so pick up your lunch boxes and take in facts instead of dissecting what this post is suppose to be about.

Anet inability to balance the game in PvP

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Posted by: Mr Godlike.6098

Mr Godlike.6098

Who knows maybe devs have so much mess thanks to own chaos they made with last patch that they might to give up and w8 till next expansion and next elite spec’s…

I or they just don’t care to read this…eh after 17.09 will see if they start to care if no Pro-team will take ele.

Was depressed ele…now depressed druid
Kawaleria (KW)

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

it shouldnt be hard for Anet, all they have to decide is what should be the primary role for an elementalist in pvp:

Range- high dmg /or heal, very squishy or

Brawler- highest dangerously spiky close range dmg but very squishy or

Brawler- average close range dmg and average mitigation or

Bunker- low dmg, high sustained mitigation or

Crowd Control/Support- , average to low dmg/Very strong sustained kiting/CC/buffs


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

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Posted by: sorrychief.2563

sorrychief.2563

Will we get entire weapon sets revamped like our guardian friends?

not sure if serious or what but guardian weapon skills are garbage and just a imitation of other class weapons.

Attachments:

champion magus
previously rank 2 on old leaderboards
EG.secret.OG.NAVI.sorrychief

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Posted by: Waisenpai.6028

Waisenpai.6028

Elementalist were not cele by nature. Back in spvp there were more stats you have necklace and gems to split stat combination in spvp For example Soldier Neckalace is 66% PVT and Beserker Gem is 33% PPF and the time it was critical. Then they got rid of gems and had bas attributes only. People complained that power crit so they nerfed and re-work crit that’s why Divinity runes became obsolete. Ele was the first class that go it’s base states reduced and that made them equipment or stat driven. Anet won’t fix that mistake of lowing base damage, tough and healing traits for ele traits and skins. So instead they created the Cele stat. Many class benefit from that like Eles, Engis, warriors, mesmers and rangers. Everything was fine and suddenly an expansion came out that make ever single class a bunker burst that can out burst an ele. The funny thing is that eles are stat driven unlike the other profs with lower hp, low armor and low DPS. Anet was thinking lets make a simple ele aka a tempest so if people play that they won’t complain as much. Tempest became op since core ele was strip of vigor and burst dps. You can’t cancel an expansion so you cut celestial stats to balance game. with less hp but you can still have cleric…. strip that and lets leave menders. But every other class has higher dps, sustain and mobility in spvp stat driven environment.

If they don’t fix their old mistakes and rebalance the class to be less stats driven and more trait or have higher base heal or damage mechanics there is nothing to do. Tempest were used since core ele was gutted. Please correct core ele so tempest can be it’s mediocre self. Need some movement skills with shorter cool downs and some more condi or base power damage. Make people shift away from tempest tanking and leave a window open so a few other builds can be used. Please fix chill effects on attunement swap, anet originally stated it was a game flaw and was not intended to inhibit that class.

Updated play style required it’s like the rev became the old ele and we got short stick below a Scrapper or druid. Wars with regens on f1 burst that can’t be removed as a boon.. Well that’s a tad overwhelming and don’t make me poke fun at DH power creep and Chrono power shatters. Normalizing vigor for ele in arcane tree was wrong since no one normalized the 1 sec cd on evade for a daredevil.

Min Min core d/d ele Borlis Pass Bunny Thumper

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Posted by: K THEN.5162

K THEN.5162

I wouldn’t even consider the elementalist to be the jack of all trades anymore, it’s more like the peasant of all trades at this point…

Elementally Challenged Asuran Roamer

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Posted by: mike put.6892

mike put.6892

buff water auto attack ofc. and add 2 bleed per projectile on scepter earth auto attack.

Harambe was only a gorilla…

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Posted by: Wolfric.9380

Wolfric.9380

hmm 2 bleed on scepter auto would be overtuned but making it an attack chain with diffrent conditions, bleed, posion, torment would be great.

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Posted by: steve.2945

steve.2945

hmm 2 bleed on scepter auto would be overtuned but making it an attack chain with diffrent conditions, bleed, posion, torment would be great.

Are you some kind of wizard o.0 ?

Proud TTS member

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Posted by: mike put.6892

mike put.6892

we might aswell add an area torment skill on the 2 skill on earth scepter , and give earth traitline a new trait wich enables all passive signets to create a passive field around you based on the attunement you’re in. for example 1 signet on fire attunement will pulse 1 burn every second and 4 signets will pulse 4 burns every second. Water will pulse poison air will pulse torment and earth will pulse bleed.

Harambe was only a gorilla…

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Posted by: Somehow.4769

Somehow.4769

Elementalist were not cele by nature.

Actually they were, are and will be.


There are 5 types of spells : Power spells, condi spells, healing spells, defensive spells and disruptive spells.

Some of them can hit many targets, actually making some defensive spells also support spells, but they are basically team-oriented defensive spells.


Elems are the only one that have the 5 types of spells in any of their weapon combination. There are no pure power sets, no pure defensive sets, you get the all 5 no matter what. And this is why elementalists are celestial by essence. It doesn’t mean you are forced to build cele stats to be effective at what you do, but it means that being stats specialized force you to disregard a good load of your kit.

I’m guessing that the most popular version of the ele was the d/d celestial due to the really fast paced, agressive and polyvalent gamestyle. And no spell had to be disregarded.

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Posted by: Wolfric.9380

Wolfric.9380

Agree. I never played it but arcane ele and celestial is the most challenging and enjoyable jack of all playstyle. In WvW i still use cele trinkets mixed with viper armor/weapons and arcane traitline which fits ele well.

Basically i like if ele is the underdog. But i largely dislike if i can´t build like i want to be competative … I play ele because of its options not to be forced to play waterbased support …

(edited by Wolfric.9380)

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Posted by: MiguelM.3795

MiguelM.3795

Love playing staff ele, but it’s challenging and I never have enough dodges available. Trait wise I run Fire-Air-Arcane, but am thinking of trying Fire-Water-Arcane. Lots to experiment with. Four years on and I still love the game, warts and all.

Armaments chapter 2, verses 9-21

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Posted by: Skittledness.5106

Skittledness.5106

Ele will be present in nearly every WTS team at LAN it is fine atm

Jeffies Jeffie Jeff Jeff Jeff Jeff Jeff Jeffies Jeffie Jeff Jeff Jeff Jeff Jeff Jeffies Jeffie

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Posted by: Xillllix.3485

Xillllix.3485

Ele will be present in nearly every WTS team at LAN it is fine atm

Every elementalist that has been here since the launch of the game will agree that the elementalist is not fine. It has lost ALL it’s build variety.