Guild Wars 2

Kodiak.3281:

Gaudrath.6725:

Kodiak, the reason you’re the last one to die is because those guys take the brunt of enemy fire and us elementalists usually stick to the back or sides and often get neglected in the commotion.

Try rolling as a frontliner in ’zerker gear, let me know how it handles.

As for rifle warriors, they can oneshot a glass cannon ele, the only problem is that they have to stand still and their target has to remain unobstructed and in range while the shot is priming, which often doesn’t happen.

Anyway, try small group action or 1vs1. I bet you can’t even solo a supply camp if you don’t use all the elements. There’s your empirical data.

I’m glad you’re finally starting to see my point that playing a particular way isn’t wrong and like most things it’s all based on not only how you play but the situations you put yourself in.

InFluEnZa.6908:

Even if you are in full zerk gear, throwing a meteor shower followed by water 4,2, then air,5, earth 2 then fire 2 (for might stacks) is better than just doing a fire 5 and then spamming 2,3,1,1,1,3,1,1,2 (something like that).

Prove it.

There is nothing to prove; using meteor shower in conjunction with cc abilities will keep your opponents stuck in the aoe longer so they take more damage.

Kodiak.3281:

Gaudrath.6725:

Kodiak, the reason you’re the last one to die is because those guys take the brunt of enemy fire and us elementalists usually stick to the back or sides and often get neglected in the commotion.

Try rolling as a frontliner in ’zerker gear, let me know how it handles.

As for rifle warriors, they can oneshot a glass cannon ele, the only problem is that they have to stand still and their target has to remain unobstructed and in range while the shot is priming, which often doesn’t happen.

Anyway, try small group action or 1vs1. I bet you can’t even solo a supply camp if you don’t use all the elements. There’s your empirical data.

I’m glad you’re finally starting to see my point that playing a particular way isn’t wrong and like most things it’s all based on not only how you play but the situations you put yourself in.

Wrong? This is a game. There is no wrong way to play a game. Inefficient? Yes. Sometimes I strip all my armor when going underwater because I can’t roleplay I can swim wrapped in a ton of soaked fur. And hey, you know what, I don’t die and can kill stuff.

Doesn’t mean that I do it better than the guy who kept his armor on, and I wouldn’t go on the forums claiming as such, which is what you do.

Adastra.9821:

InFluEnZa.6908:

Staff eles bring a lot of team support; staying solely on fire is a waste in my opinion. Even if you are in full zerk gear, throwing a meteor shower followed by water 4,2, then air,5, earth 2 then fire 2 (for might stacks) is better than just doing a fire 5 and then spamming 2,3,1,1,1,3,1,1,2 (something like that). You can also throw in water 3,5 for team healing, then earth 2 + arcane blast for more 2 area heals. Or, water 5, earth 2, roll inside in earth + arcane blast for 3 area heals. Full zerk build probably won’t have 30 in arcane, but water 5, earth 2 + arcane blast are still 2 area heals. Or if you team has high hp already, you can simply do earth 2 into fire 2 and arcane blast on it for 6 might stacks. On top of what you can do with your own skill set, your team can also use your combo fields. Projectile finishers through air 5 can add a lot of vulnerability stacks; 10+ seconds of chill in ice field. Bunch of blast finishers in your fire 2 can add lots of might stacks fast.

tl;dr. In my opinion, staff elementalists need to attunement swap for maximum potential. When I run into staff eles only using fire, I turn into a very sad panda :c

That’s all very situational. For example, you can’t guarantee that your entire team is close enough to get the might stacks. In fact for some more difficult encounters, your party is probably doing something wrong unless you’re coordinating grouping together. There’s no point in going up to someone to give might or heal them when two or more you are going to get downed in one shot.

In a lot of situations, the damage you lose by switching to earth and waiting the 12 or so seconds to switch back to fire results in lost total dps (just going by my own anecdotal observations) since the other attunements offer less dps, at least for crit/power builds because you wouldn’t be hanging around in fire if you have some staff bleed condition build. I’ve found no reason to swap attunements unless I needed some utility from another one while using staff.

If someone’s going to swap attunements for the sake of attunement swapping just because someone on the forums told them eles revolve around constantly doing so, I’d rather have this person contribute to more dps by staying in fire. Most likely I’m in a pug for some easy encounter to meet bad players in the first place so it wouldn’t really matter much. They probably can’t recognize when it’s appropriate to swap and likely tunnel vision their own health. Just focus and keep yourself alive so I don’t have to.

I agree that it’s better for someone swapping attunement just to look good to just stay on fire and dps. While it’s situational for might stacking and using blast finishers to do area heals, earth 4, water, 4, and air 5 gives you useful cc’s to use against mobs. If I had teammates to cc and tank for me, I will happily stay in fire and dps :p

InFluEnZa.6908:

There is nothing to prove; using meteor shower in conjunction with cc abilities will keep your opponents stuck in the aoe longer so they take more damage.

But is it more damage than had you just stayed in Fire and continued to do more Fire based skills? That’s the part you need to prove. You made a claim, now back it up with numbers.

If you don’t have numbers, then it’s just you think it does more damage but you can’t say for sure.

Gaudrath.6725:

Wrong? This is a game. There is no wrong way to play a game. Inefficient? Yes. Sometimes I strip all my armor when going underwater because I can’t roleplay I can swim wrapped in a ton of soaked fur. And hey, you know what, I don’t die and can kill stuff.

Doesn’t mean that I do it better than the guy who kept his armor on, and I wouldn’t go on the forums claiming as such, which is what you do.

And yet…

Gaudrath.6725:

Staying in one attunement 99% of the time is pretty much the only wrong way to play an ele, regardless of your build and trait lines. Players who do that ignore our main class mechanic and do not take advantage of it in any way. End of discussion.

What I am doing is asking you to prove that one is more efficient than the other. You’re making a claim that one is more efficient, better, right, or what other semantic variation you prefer and asking you to prove that it is inefficient, worse, wrong, etc.

Kodiak.3281:

InFluEnZa.6908:

There is nothing to prove; using meteor shower in conjunction with cc abilities will keep your opponents stuck in the aoe longer so they take more damage.

But is it more damage than had you just stayed in Fire and continued to do more Fire based skills? That’s the part you need to prove. You made a claim, now back it up with numbers.

If you don’t have numbers, then it’s just you think it does more damage but you can’t say for sure.

You can’t really quantify the effects of CC skills with numbers. And numbers really don’t prove anything, even with damage skills, as they never tell the whole story – there are far too many variables in actual PvP combat to account for, and something that may do more damage on paper might never do such damage in actual combat. Lava Font hits extremely hard, for instance, but only if the opponent stays in the circle – numbers don’t represent that because you can’t account for how long the enemy may stay in the circle – there’s too many variables – do they have Vigor, are they chilled or crippled, do they have movement skills or condition cleanses to get out, etc., etc.

Numbers really don’t prove anything in a PvP environment. So the definitive proof you’re asking for doesn’t actually exist – or at the very least, accounting for every variable is far too complex to be feasible and so your request is unreasonable.

Kodiak.3281:

InFluEnZa.6908:

There is nothing to prove; using meteor shower in conjunction with cc abilities will keep your opponents stuck in the aoe longer so they take more damage.

But is it more damage than had you just stayed in Fire and continued to do more Fire based skills? That’s the part you need to prove. You made a claim, now back it up with numbers.

If you don’t have numbers, then it’s just you think it does more damage but you can’t say for sure.

Gaudrath.6725:

Wrong? This is a game. There is no wrong way to play a game. Inefficient? Yes. Sometimes I strip all my armor when going underwater because I can’t roleplay I can swim wrapped in a ton of soaked fur. And hey, you know what, I don’t die and can kill stuff.

Doesn’t mean that I do it better than the guy who kept his armor on, and I wouldn’t go on the forums claiming as such, which is what you do.

And yet…

Gaudrath.6725:

Staying in one attunement 99% of the time is pretty much the only wrong way to play an ele, regardless of your build and trait lines. Players who do that ignore our main class mechanic and do not take advantage of it in any way. End of discussion.

What I am doing is asking you to prove that one is more efficient than the other. You’re making a claim that one is more efficient, better, right, or what other semantic variation you prefer and asking you to prove that it is inefficient, worse, wrong, etc.

I don’t have to prove it. Do you ask people to prove six is greater than two?

Gaudrath.6725:

I don’t have to prove it. Do you ask people to prove six is greater than two?

Neither of you has to prove anything, yet at the same time, you’re not gonna convince the other until you do.

Caledore.6271:

You can’t really quantify the effects of CC skills with numbers. And numbers really don’t prove anything, even with damage skills, as they never tell the whole story – there are far too many variables in actual PvP combat to account for, and something that may do more damage on paper might never do such damage in actual combat. Lava Font hits extremely hard, for instance, but only if the opponent stays in the circle – numbers don’t represent that because you can’t account for how long the enemy may stay in the circle – there’s too many variables – do they have Vigor, are they chilled or crippled, do they have movement skills or condition cleanses to get out, etc., etc.

Numbers really don’t prove anything in a PvP environment. So the definitive proof you’re asking for doesn’t actually exist – or at the very least, accounting for every variable is far too complex to be feasible and so your request is unreasonable.

Everything can be quantified even CC.

Meteor Swarm hits random points within a targeted area. Presuming a mobile target, they will only get hit with X ticks of Meteor Swarm. You then swap to Water and use our Chill field to keep them in the Meteor Swarm area. The theory then holds that because you did the Chill, they now will get hit with X+Y ticks of Meteor Swarm (Y being the extra ticks that will hit because you Chilled them).

However fundamentally I am 100% with you and I totally agree and what you’re saying has been my point all along. People who are stating scenarios as empirical proof aren’t fully stating the scenarios which are vastly complex in nature and have so many working parts that can contribute to a particular outcome.

Gaudrath.6725:

I don’t have to prove it. Do you ask people to prove six is greater than two?

You can prove six is greater than two. See that’s a mathematical fact that can be proven. In fact I’ve been asking for you to provide the numbers to prove your point.

What you’re asserting is that apples are greater than oranges. Can you prove apples are greater than oranges? I’m saying you can’t. You seem to keep insisting you can.

No, you seem to insist that a six is an orange and a two is an apple. Look, I think I’m done running in circles with this discussion.

I could go to gw2buildcraft.com and spend an hour cranking out numbers to bury your little theory, but you would probably just say that it’s a thrid party website or something, and I don’t have time to do that anyway. If you want to have fun, knock yourself out, have two identically geared builds, one 30/0/0/20/30 and the other 0/0/30/20/30, whip out a calculator, set a time window of 100 seconds and go to town.

Your playstyle, which ignores our main class mechanic and limits you to only 25% of our abilities is not optimal nor even close to being equal in both utility and DPS. End of story and end of discussion as far as I am concerned.

Red Falcon.8257:

I don’t think focusing on 1 element is “the wrong way”.
I know many many and again many Eles who don’t want to swap a lot and spam everything on CD or rotations, they like specialized play.
It’s just the Ele class lacking a proper specialization system with T3 traits.

I.E.
Pyromaster: Fire spells have their critical chance doubled.
Attunement recharge rate increased to 60s and spells of other attunements have -50% dmg/healing.
Stormcaller: Air spells have their damage increased by 25% and recharge 20% faster.
Attunement recharge rate increased to 60s and spells of other attunements have -50% dmg/healing.
Stoneguard: +250 toughness and condition damage. Armor of earth cooldown halved. Attunement recharge rate increased to 60s and spells of other attunements have -50% dmg/healing.
Frost Mage: +250 vitality and healing power. Water spells cause vulnerability.
Attunement recharge rate increased to 60s and spells of other attunements have -50% dmg/healing.

You do realize, this totally KILLS attunement swap?
So basically, if all you want to do is laying down a combo field, blast finisher or cc, you’d have to wait 60 sec to be able to swap back to your heavily traited attunement.
What’s the point of it? Shouldn’t the point be to promote the attunement while making others less effective, not outright killing all other attunement?
How about “attunement cooldowns of other attunements are doubled, attunement cooldown on fire is halved”?#

would promote swapping to another attunement to drop your bs and then get back to roasting stuff.

Gaudrath.6725:

And if you try ignoring your class mechanics in WvW, well, prepare to be farmed for badges. If WvW’ers give you lip about you staying only in fire and not dropping Static Fields (if you run staff) and Frozen Ground in front of enemy zergs, you deserve it.

If you happen to be solo roaming with D/D, nobody will give you lip about staying in one element only, you’ll just die a lot.

so … when did the discussion-topic change from staff PvE to D/D and WvW?
Also I always mentioned that a build fokussed on staying in fire (with staff!) is needed to overcome the benefits from attunement-swapping. 30-30-0-10-0 for example. (http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fEAQFAWhImSbqR5gjDAkCoEeQADJIeYRFUA;TkAg0U5YCSEkVHXOSdGkittenA) No boons on attunenment switch, no fury on attunenment switch, no explo-finisher from evasive arcana, little condition-remove from water, no Sigills that procc on weapon-swap, ect. – but 15% (5% throught constant burn) more dmg in fire (would be 15% more overall-dmg when not switching), reduced CD on fire-spells and might on fire-spells – maybe in combination with might-duration-runes and all the glyphs beeing cast in fire for additional might-stacks.
Attunenment-switching could never help you outdamaging this build.

I just came up with that build, never tested it or completely thought it through.

When people think they’re a bender.
as in Fire earth water air bender.

Im like… kitten use your other elements and pretend you’re the avatar. -.-

Andovar Edoras.2143:

What makes me cringe though is the fact that he uses fire 99,99% of the time…. Just spamming fire 1 and sometimes fire 2 and 3. He only switches to air only while travelling for the speed buff..

Actually in some groups and some situation it is the best way to play.
1- Its the best dmg as staff
2- Its the best indirect dps with almost perma fire combo field
3- Its the best sustain AoE
4- With heavy glyph spec and Might on fire attacks it is close to the hightest thoerical dps (which is spam 1 in earth with high cond and prec + Burn on crit and a perma poison field, not very sexy gameplay neither) an Elementalist can do.

Gaudrath.6725:

No, you seem to insist that a six is an orange and a two is an apple. Look, I think I’m done running in circles with this discussion.

I could go to gw2buildcraft.com and spend an hour cranking out numbers to bury your little theory, but you would probably just say that it’s a thrid party website or something, and I don’t have time to do that anyway. If you want to have fun, knock yourself out, have two identically geared builds, one 30/0/0/20/30 and the other 0/0/30/20/30, whip out a calculator, set a time window of 100 seconds and go to town.

Your playstyle, which ignores our main class mechanic and limits you to only 25% of our abilities is not optimal nor even close to being equal in both utility and DPS. End of story and end of discussion as far as I am concerned.

You’ve never provided numbers once. Not once. You’ve just blatantly held that one is better than the other but have never proved it outside of casual observation which aren’t facts. I’m talking about “fruit” because that’s all you’re giving me.

If you give me any numbers I’m going to ask how you got them and then I would attempt to replicate them to verify your information. We could, then, have a discussion on numbers. If it indeed worked out that X spec with Y gear is better than another I would repeat that same information and use said facts to back it up alongside you.

I have not stated once what my play style or spec is outside of saying I’ve spec’d Berserker before and that I use Berserker gear. My spec or play style has never really mattered to this discussion because I don’t claim the way I play is superior to any other way. I don’t have to prove why mine is better because I don’t claim it is better.

The original question if this thread is what do we consider to be a “wrong” way to play an ele, which I interpret in what do we consider to be an inefficient and subpar way to play the class.

My answer is anything that doesn’t use 100% of our potential. Which means anything that doesn’t use all of our elements and abilities. Your DPS is lower, your burst potential is lower, your survivability is lower and your utility is lower.

Why? Because you’re not using the kitten skills.

But hey – let’s just assume that your DPS is actually better by staying in fire only. Your playstyle is still subpar, because everything else suffers.

As I said – I can solo champions, supply camps in WvW and actually win a duel. You can’t do any of those, not even close, by staying in fire only. The only way you are even able to stay in fire only in dungeons is because other players take on the attention of mobs and leave you free to just spam autoattack and an occasional meteor shower/lava font.

Of course, they get squat back from you… you just do DPS. Never mind AoE Might or AoE Heals you could be throwing at them, both of which are more useful than the kind of DPS we can put out even when specced for damage.

Personally, I’d take a ‘zerker warrior over a “fire mage” any day. They’ll die harder and do way more damage.

Waraxx.4286:

when i play elementalsits i usually am 50-90% of the encounter in the fire mode because its AA is the only one that is good enough, sure earth weekness is ok but it isnt aoe. also fire 2 is realy nice dps wise and fire field. in some boss fights i never exit fire because they are so simple. i.e frostbite last boss fractal or AC bosses pre patch.

I love the Fire 1 too, but sometimes it’s better to stick with Water 1 because others are doing better damage up close and you’re more helpful if you’re helping heal them while they’re in melee range of the target. I wish more staff eles would do that when zerging in WvW as you’re really helping the frontline.

Dolan.3071:

If I could give you my like I would. A signet build on ANY profession is a recipe for disaster cough warrior cough

I don’t run that build, but I can see someone having lots of fun with it

Lillian Wandom Hale.7102:

And concerning your friend …I play his build and had touched Daggers for 3 hours tops in my whole gameplay.
Staff since beta, Staff today ….trust me, staying in fire is Optimal because nobody cares about broken skills and 2 second conditions ^^

This isn’t just an Ele thing, but something for all professions: There’s no reason not to carry multiple weapon sets and use them as & when they’re needed. For instance, I’m mainly staff but yesterday I spent ages hiding in the tunnels near an enemy keep in WvW and using my d/d to sneak up to a door, hit it so that their waypoint stayed contested, and get away as quickly as possible before getting smacked to death by a dozen guards. You don’t have that manoeuvrability with staff.

Gaudrath.6725:

The original question if this thread is what do we consider to be a “wrong” way to play an ele, which I interpret in what do we consider to be an inefficient and subpar way to play the class.

My answer is anything that doesn’t use 100% of our potential. Which means anything that doesn’t use all of our elements and abilities. Your DPS is lower, your burst potential is lower, your survivability is lower and your utility is lower.

Why? Because you’re not using the kitten skills.

But hey – let’s just assume that your DPS is actually better by staying in fire only. Your playstyle is still subpar, because everything else suffers.

As I said – I can solo champions, supply camps in WvW and actually win a duel. You can’t do any of those, not even close, by staying in fire only. The only way you are even able to stay in fire only in dungeons is because other players take on the attention of mobs and leave you free to just spam autoattack and an occasional meteor shower/lava font.

Of course, they get squat back from you… you just do DPS. Never mind AoE Might or AoE Heals you could be throwing at them, both of which are more useful than the kind of DPS we can put out even when specced for damage.

Personally, I’d take a ‘zerker warrior over a “fire mage” any day. They’ll die harder and do way more damage.

Effective solo and effective group play are completely different things. But in both situations, there is no point in swapping attunements for the sake of doing it if it doesn’t offer any utility for the moment you need it. If your party can take on all the damage, then so be it. You’ve got a great party and you might as well stay back and do dps unless you enjoy being in the fray. Your dps is arguably higher if you stay in fire depending on your build and for other reasons I’ve already stated. Sure a zerker warrior will do more dps, pretty much more than any other class in fact, but that’s not the topic here.

“But hey – let’s just assume that your DPS is actually better by staying in fire only. Your playstyle is still subpar, because everything else suffers.”

Why is the playstyle subpar? You’ve made the assumption that dps is better in fire. By that assumption, you can reason that the ele in your theoretical situation is actually staying alive to do the DPS, or else it wouldn’t be higher. #QED.

You are incredibly close-minded and make shoddy arguments. You can argue effectiveness but if someone wants to play a certain way, they can play however the heck they want within the terms and conditions agreed to. There is no “wrong” way to play an ele. They just likely won’t be able to take on more difficult content and brag about soloing champions and supply camps and winning duels, and some people are fine with that.

edit: it seems you already do realize there’s no “wrong” way to play

Gaudrath.6725:

Wrong? This is a game. There is no wrong way to play a game. Inefficient? Yes. Sometimes I strip all my armor when going underwater because I can’t roleplay I can swim wrapped in a ton of soaked fur. And hey, you know what, I don’t die and can kill stuff.

Doesn’t mean that I do it better than the guy who kept his armor on, and I wouldn’t go on the forums claiming as such, which is what you do.

You just completely contradicted yourself here.

Adastra.9821:

Gaudrath.6725:

Wrong? This is a game. There is no wrong way to play a game. Inefficient? Yes. Sometimes I strip all my armor when going underwater because I can’t roleplay I can swim wrapped in a ton of soaked fur. And hey, you know what, I don’t die and can kill stuff.

Doesn’t mean that I do it better than the guy who kept his armor on, and I wouldn’t go on the forums claiming as such, which is what you do.

You just completely contradicted yourself here.

Learn the difference between “wrong” and “inefficient”. There is no contradiction. I will not tell people how to play the game because it’s a game and I have better uses for my time.

But if we’re discussing efficiency, then there are more and less efficient ways to play the class. You can drive your car in second gear all the way to work and get there just fine… you won’t be wrong, just inefficient.

Btw, no, there is never a good reason to stay just in fire with staff. Even if you want to do DPS, you can achieve better results with combos and using high damage spells on cooldown form all 4 elements than just spamming fire skills.

I again invite everyone who thinks they are playing World of Warcraft instead of Guild Wars 2 to visit gw2buildcraft.com and spend some time alone with the calculator. Come back here with a definitive proof that you can outDPS an equally geared build by just using fire and then we can talk.

Once again. I am not arguing your personal preferences. For all I care you can spend your playtime spamming water autoattack at stuff because you’re roleplaying a river nymph or something. As I said, I do silly stuff too. But let’s not come here and pretend that what we do out of personal preference or for fun has anything to do with optimal gameplay, because it doesn’t.

Gaudrath.6725:

The original question if this thread is what do we consider to be a “wrong” way to play an ele, which I interpret in what do we consider to be an inefficient and subpar way to play the class.

My answer is anything that doesn’t use 100% of our potential. Which means anything that doesn’t use all of our elements and abilities. Your DPS is lower, your burst potential is lower, your survivability is lower and your utility is lower.

Why? Because you’re not using the kitten skills.

But hey – let’s just assume that your DPS is actually better by staying in fire only. Your playstyle is still subpar, because everything else suffers.

As I said – I can solo champions, supply camps in WvW and actually win a duel. You can’t do any of those, not even close, by staying in fire only. The only way you are even able to stay in fire only in dungeons is because other players take on the attention of mobs and leave you free to just spam autoattack and an occasional meteor shower/lava font.

Of course, they get squat back from you… you just do DPS. Never mind AoE Might or AoE Heals you could be throwing at them, both of which are more useful than the kind of DPS we can put out even when specced for damage.

Personally, I’d take a ‘zerker warrior over a “fire mage” any day. They’ll die harder and do way more damage.

Meanwhile I contend there is no wrong way to play an Ele because no one can prove that there is a wrong way to play an Ele. The game simply doesn’t allow us to prove it. I think this is your biggest source of confusion, I’m not saying Y is better than X and you’re saying X is better than Y. I’m simply saying you can’t prove either scenario. I have taken no sides other than the side of facts, reason and truth.

Running with your assumption that sticking to Fire is better (again no one has really proven it is or is not) the extra DPS you deal has to be also weighted against the utility you add. For example measuring the functional amount of DPS that stacking AOE Might actually does add for the group. By functional I mean you can’t simply add 5 targets if all 5 party members don’t stand in the might. Same with Static Field’s Vulnerability if you only got 1 guy with projectile finishers to proc Vulnerability you likely won’t reach 25 stacks (and notably most projectile finisher classes won’t really be stacked up for AOE Might!). The same holds true of measuring whether or not dropping a Chill or Heal would allow people to deal additional DPS that they wouldn’t have been able to deal otherwise (due to having to stop DPS to survive or stopping DPS due to death). All these utilities can be represented through DPS numbers and compared to the (relatively) simple DPS calculations of just doing DPS.

There’s a lot of assumption that doing group based activities (IE: AOE Might) will lead to over all higher DPS than had you just continued to stay in Fire and did DPS. No one has proven that it actually does.

Most groups will take Warriors over Eles any day of the week regardless. In fact many high end min-max circles will only take Mesmers and Warriors in most cases because their DPS is supreme compared to any other class and offer them good survivability. That’s really not the point of the discussion and in fact is just trying to side track the discussion because you still lack the actual proof to back up your claims that are really just your opinions based on your experiences.

Gaudrath.6725:

But if we’re discussing efficiency, then there are more and less efficient ways to play the class. You can drive your car in second gear all the way to work and get there just fine… you won’t be wrong, just inefficient.

Btw, no, there is never a good reason to stay just in fire with staff. Even if you want to do DPS, you can achieve better results with combos and using high damage spells on cooldown form all 4 elements than just spamming fire skills.

I again invite everyone who thinks they are playing World of Warcraft instead of Guild Wars 2 to visit gw2buildcraft.com and spend some time alone with the calculator. Come back here with a definitive proof that you can outDPS an equally geared build by just using fire and then we can talk.

What we’re asking you to do is prove that inefficiency. You can prove that driving to work in second gear is inefficient because you can measure the time it takes to get there.

Now prove to us that swapping attunements is higher DPS than sticking to Fire in a way we can measure. Back up your claim that it is better. You’re making a claim. Where is your proof?

We don’t have to prove anything. We’re asking YOU to backup and prove YOUR claims. The minute I claim Fire is higher DPS than swapping attunements (in a non mocking manner) with all seriousness I will present to you proof that it is.

Also been toying with the calculator. Horridly bugged and not working only on the most basic levels.

Thunder hammer water ele > warrior. A fire-traited ele staying in fire on an immobile target in PVE (such as large boss) > all other atunements or combination of attunements for PERSONAL DPS. The two claims can and have been proven by analyzing the dmage done by abilities (as listed in tooltips) and cool downs in multiple threads on these forums.

An argument can be made for warrior surviveablility… but say a 20 fire 20 water 30 arcane TH ele will have more than enough tools to live for a very long time and thirve in situations which wreck warriors (such as large numbers of conditions in arah trash).

A secondary argument in this thread about PVE and the viability/efficiency/what have you of staying in just one attunement has boiled down to considerations regarding the utility to the group of various skills such as weakness on boss, healing to allies, combo fields and so on. I do not think that even the most staunch “I like to stay in fire” staff ele will say “I never ever change.” That isn’t really the origional issue. The question was, is a ele staying in fire for most of the time inherently weak or limited. It seems that this has been somewhat exagerated in the responses, with commenters treating the question as assuming the ele stays in fire 100% of the time.

Advantages to staying in fire for MOST of your time on a PVE (NOT WVW, original post was NEVER about WVW):
1) High(est) sustained DPS. A poster noted that dropping several skills such as earth 2 and water 2 in rotation after maybe fire 2 and 5 would result in better dps. This is possibly (though dubious) true for that small frame of time starting at the moment the first fire 2 is cast to the end of the earth 2 cast, but then you are waiting to get back into fire using underpowered abilities when a traited fire ele is going to have F2 and 5 on reduced cool down to the point that F2 is almost always on the boss. Meanwhile, moves like earth 2 have long cool downs that result in you just twiddling your thumbs. This is a counter argument to the “go try to kill a mob before it reaches you by staying just in fire” post above. A single mob does not live long enough for sustained impact of longer cool downs to come into play, also you kind of loaded the deck since swapping makes the mob take longer to get to you due to control on earth and water. And who cares what the fastest way to kill a single mob with staff skills is? Regardless, its drop a thunder hammer and auto attack.
2) In a sense, defaulting into fire actually increases utility. Because the fire ele is mostly in fire, at any moment earth water and air are likely to be available, meaning that if a clutch heal is suddenly needed, the fire ele is extremely likely to not only be able to swap into fire, but to have water 3 and 5 up. This is true of air 5 and earth’s controls as well.
3) Increased Might Potential: A traited fire mage can keep fire2 on a boss almost continuously (I am not able to get in game, but I know the traited time reduction from end of cast to next is only a few seconds). This means that burning projectiles and a field for leap and blast is always on the boss. While the ele is not personally finishing the combo, that’s what the other four people in your group are for. If you’re really worried about finishing you’re own combos, hand thunder hammers to mele and poof they are giving a blast every third hit that the ele “made” and doing more SUSTAINED dps than they would with their native weapon set in most cases—again TH autoattck out damages even warrior axe. (Honestly I wish I could elect to set TH inplace of FGS as my elite while runnign staff).

TL;DR: There is nothing INHERENT to the fire ele playstyle which renders that play inefficient or ineffective in GROUP PVE play. It is dependent on player skill and wherewithall. Traited into and played sensibly, a staff fire ele has the highest personal dps potential of any staff ele (I’m also pretty sure it beats D/D, but i’m not positive. This would be on a non-threatening stationary target for optimal comparrison so as to negate the mele/range safety trade off) while retaining access to all normal group utility.

sadly D/D in fire does much higher sustained dps. their auto atk is rated at .5 sec per hit instead of 1sec per fireball. if u hit all 3 of ur auto, ur dmg output is approximately 30% higher per atk compared to fireball. ring of fire also has a short cast with a nice fire field and dmg. of course doing it in d/d requires u to be meleeing the boss for all 3 hits on fire1 to hit consistently. which leads to the issue of u having a high chance of getting murder by being up close.

^ percentage is estimated from full glass build switching from zerker staff to zerker d/d. require all trait/gear to remain the same in staff and d/d besides wpn.

Gaudrath.6725:

Adastra.9821:

Gaudrath.6725:

Wrong? This is a game. There is no wrong way to play a game. Inefficient? Yes. Sometimes I strip all my armor when going underwater because I can’t roleplay I can swim wrapped in a ton of soaked fur. And hey, you know what, I don’t die and can kill stuff.

Doesn’t mean that I do it better than the guy who kept his armor on, and I wouldn’t go on the forums claiming as such, which is what you do.

You just completely contradicted yourself here.

Learn the difference between “wrong” and “inefficient”. There is no contradiction. I will not tell people how to play the game because it’s a game and I have better uses for my time.

But if we’re discussing efficiency, then there are more and less efficient ways to play the class. You can drive your car in second gear all the way to work and get there just fine… you won’t be wrong, just inefficient.

Btw, no, there is never a good reason to stay just in fire with staff. Even if you want to do DPS, you can achieve better results with combos and using high damage spells on cooldown form all 4 elements than just spamming fire skills.

I again invite everyone who thinks they are playing World of Warcraft instead of Guild Wars 2 to visit gw2buildcraft.com and spend some time alone with the calculator. Come back here with a definitive proof that you can outDPS an equally geared build by just using fire and then we can talk.

Once again. I am not arguing your personal preferences. For all I care you can spend your playtime spamming water autoattack at stuff because you’re roleplaying a river nymph or something. As I said, I do silly stuff too. But let’s not come here and pretend that what we do out of personal preference or for fun has anything to do with optimal gameplay, because it doesn’t.

Cherry picked something that wasn’t even the point

And no that wasn’t the contradiction. Let me make it even more obvious.

Gaudrath.6725:

Doesn’t mean that I do it better than the guy who kept his armor on, and I wouldn’t go on the forums claiming as such

Why don’t you actually read the discussion then? I was referring to Kodiak who flat out claims that you can stay in fire 99% of time and do better than the guy who uses all four elements.

But hey, I can see you guys are absolutely in love with fire, and that there is no real reasoning to be had with you in this thread. Play as you like. If we happen to meet in WvW on opposing sides, I’ll roflstomp you into the ground, take your badge, and move on. You won’t be the first noob “fire mage” I saw out there, nor the last.

For any wondering eles reading this thread, keep that in mind. You can afford to do whatever you want in PvE because it’s dead easy, but if you want to survive in sPvP and WvW, nevermind actually consistently be any good with the class, you won’t be listening to these guys.
Use all four elements, use combos and squeeze every advantage you can. A brain dead NPC boss will stand like a log in the middle of your Lava Font or Meteor Shower, but players, you will want to cripple them, chill them, bleed them and burn them, knock them down, weaken them and heal yourself a lot and whenever you can. You do 0 DPS when you’re dead.

Mighty Assasin.3816:

Running signets.

This. Except signet of restoration. That’s the only good signet.

Also if you dont’t swap attunements you’re not getting as much out of your character as you could. Even if you’re not taking damage, water applies vulnerability. Earth has tonnes of combo finishers, and considering ele is one of the best classes for laying down combo fields, you’re losing out on a lot of might stacks. Air has spikes. Sure you can sit in fire for the better damage, but someone switching all attunes will be doing more damage due to might+vulnerability+air spike.

Gaudrath.6725:

Why don’t you actually read the discussion then? I was referring to Kodiak who flat out claims that you can stay in fire 99% of time and do better than the guy who uses all four elements.

But hey, I can see you guys are absolutely in love with fire, and that there is no real reasoning to be had with you in this thread. Play as you like. If we happen to meet in WvW on opposing sides, I’ll roflstomp you into the ground, take your badge, and move on. You won’t be the first noob “fire mage” I saw out there, nor the last.

For any wondering eles reading this thread, keep that in mind. You can afford to do whatever you want in PvE because it’s dead easy, but if you want to survive in sPvP and WvW, nevermind actually consistently be any good with the class, you won’t be listening to these guys.
Use all four elements, use combos and squeeze every advantage you can. A brain dead NPC boss will stand like a log in the middle of your Lava Font or Meteor Shower, but players, you will want to cripple them, chill them, bleed them and burn them, knock them down, weaken them and heal yourself a lot and whenever you can. You do 0 DPS when you’re dead.

I claim you can’t prove that using all 4 elements will yield higher DPS than the guy who stays in Fire 99% of the time. Show me once where I said sticking in Fire will yield more DPS in a non-mocking manner. Oh wait, I’m asking for you for more proof. I forgot who I was talking to!

For any wondering Eles I advocate you use your brain and think for yourself rather than simply lap up the same information that’s been vomited around and past down as holy scripture since beta. Is swapping around to do DPS better than staying in Fire? I suggest you try both and make that own determination.

When playing in a group (organized or pug doesn’t matter) only thinking of yourself and maximizing your own dps is selfish and doesn’t contribute to anything in the long run. We as Ele’s have some of the most combo fields in the game, regardless of how you’re spec’d/geared you should use them as much as possible for the benefit of the group. Being selfish in group situations is the only wrong way to play any job IMO.

SuiRyuJin.4615:

sadly D/D in fire does much higher sustained dps. their auto atk is rated at .5 sec per hit instead of 1sec per fireball. if u hit all 3 of ur auto, ur dmg output is approximately 30% higher per atk compared to fireball. ring of fire also has a short cast with a nice fire field and dmg. of course doing it in d/d requires u to be meleeing the boss for all 3 hits on fire1 to hit consistently. which leads to the issue of u having a high chance of getting murder by being up close.

^ percentage is estimated from full glass build switching from zerker staff to zerker d/d. require all trait/gear to remain the same in staff and d/d besides wpn.

that ignores lava font (which is basically a second auto attack) as well as splash/aoe damage
(lightning whip>drakes claw)

blackgoat.5172:

When playing in a group (organized or pug doesn’t matter) only thinking of yourself and maximizing your own dps is selfish and doesn’t contribute to anything in the long run. We as Ele’s have some of the most combo fields in the game, regardless of how you’re spec’d/geared you should use them as much as possible for the benefit of the group. Being selfish in group situations is the only wrong way to play any job IMO.

In any weapon other than staff, you only have a single fire field. Staff offers an additional water fields, an ice field, and the only weapon based lightning field. This is again, all situational; you can’t just state the playstyle is the be-all and end-all of playing the ele and then not offer anything to back it up.

Example situation: I switch to lightning so my party can stack some vulnerability. Unless you coordinate this, you’re going to get nothing out of it. Most auto attacks and skills such as unload are only mini projectile finishers at a 20% rate. The vulnerability also only lasts 5 seconds so unless you can stack up the vulnerability with enough successful finishers and get all the big hits within the few seconds you can actually make use of it, you’ve made no contributions and are locked out of fire.

I’m not arguing that staying in fire is the best (the rapid attunement swap playstyle already clicked for me on day 2 of early access) but it’s all situational. For you and I and many others, it just comes naturally. Some people really struggle with the class as you can see in topics where they just can’t make the class work. Making a blanket statement without backing it up with at least anecdotal evidence isn’t doing anyone looking for help a favor, and that’s what we’re getting at here. Swapping for the sake of swapping greatly diminishes the benefits if you can’t actually see the utility behind it.

Why else is daphoenix’s guide considered the holy bunker D/D ele bible? He doesn’t offer hard crunched numbers, but he does offer plenty of anecdotal evidence that doesn’t just amount to “I can solo a supply camp” and win duels.

Gaudrath.6725:

But hey, I can see you guys are absolutely in love with fire, and that there is no real reasoning to be had with you in this thread. Play as you like. If we happen to meet in WvW on opposing sides, I’ll roflstomp you into the ground, take your badge, and move on. You won’t be the first noob “fire mage” I saw out there, nor the last.

For any wondering eles reading this thread, keep that in mind. You can afford to do whatever you want in PvE because it’s dead easy, but if you want to survive in sPvP and WvW, nevermind actually consistently be any good with the class, you won’t be listening to these guys.

This attitude easily invalidates any credibility you do have. We’re not saying staying in fire is better than constant swapping. Read what kodiak is actually saying? “roflstomping” staff eles with a certain overpowered D/D build is hardly anything to brag about.

blackgoat.5172:

When playing in a group (organized or pug doesn’t matter) only thinking of yourself and maximizing your own dps is selfish and doesn’t contribute to anything in the long run. We as Ele’s have some of the most combo fields in the game, regardless of how you’re spec’d/geared you should use them as much as possible for the benefit of the group. Being selfish in group situations is the only wrong way to play any job IMO.

Combo Fields run on a few principals.

For one they require organization and group communication to be counted on reliably. This is because the first combo field placed will be the one that triggers any combo finishers. So for example a Guardian spamming Combo Light fields will often times ruin the best laid combination plans you might have. I can personally say I’ve blown up AOE Retaliation more times than I care to admit because some Guardian dropped a Symbol of Wrath right before I did my Might stacking combos. Another common culprit is Mesmers and their Ethereal fields. In larger scale WvW, Necros and wells.

For two they require sufficient finishers to be taken advantage of. For example the classic Static Field with projectile finishers. Without enough ranged people to take advantage of this, you won’t stack very high Vulnerability therefore lowering the net bonus. This creates problems with other combos like AOE Might because it requires the people to benefit to be close but they could be at range doing projectile finishers and not benefit. Support is all well and good, but simply doing support for support’s sake with no tangible benefit is completely and utterly useless.

More over, I’d argue that you’re doing your group an injustice by wasting everyone’s time trying to do group support when there’s no need for it. Granting AOE Might for one or two people could (no one knows) be worse benefit to your group than just continuing to DPS because the DPS you lost performing that AOE Might could be less than the DPS gained by the Might stacks you granted. No one can say for sure whether or not it does, but that should get you to at least think about the principal.

Emperor.1360:

Gaudrath apparently could use some reading comprehension skills.

Over this entire dumb debate, Kodiak’s point has simply been that Gaudrath CANNOT PROVE ANY OF HIS CLAIMS with EVIDENCE.

Kodiak is NOT claiming that “all fire” is better than anything else. He’s simply stating that Gaudrath cannot prove his point, which, frankly, he cannot. There are no real, scientific tools in the game to measure and evaluate any of these claims; there are simply “supposed appearances” which are in no way scientific or accurate.

So basically I am supposed to do an in-depth statistical and mathematical analysis, waste I don’t know how many hours just so that I can prove an obvious point to a couple of forum goers who like to ignore obvious things for the sake of being obtuse? No thanks.

This discussion is about opinions on what is an efficient and what is an inefficient use of the class. The simple fact that not using all your skills results in lower efficiency doesn’t need to be proved. Facts, in case you have forgotten how the scientific process goes, never need to be proven. They’re facts.

What Kodiak is doing is making as much sense as asking for proof that a horse can outrun a one legged man.

Adastra.9821:

This attitude easily invalidates any credibility you do have. We’re not saying staying in fire is better than constant swapping. Read what kodiak is actually saying? “roflstomping” staff eles with a certain overpowered D/D build is hardly anything to brag about.

Oh no, I’ll roflstomp any of you fire mages with staff if you like. You use fire only? Well, I’ll chill you, stun you, blind you, burn you, knock you down, immobilize you and bleed you to death while you play with your fireballs.

Adastra.9821:

Why else is daphoenix’s guide considered the holy bunker D/D ele bible? He doesn’t offer hard crunched numbers, but he does offer plenty of anecdotal evidence that doesn’t just amount to “I can solo a supply camp” and win duels.

I guess you haven’t read through the entire discussion. I already mentioned, anecdotally to boot, how using all 4 elements in staff can result in wiping out groups on walls during siege, something impossible to achieve with fire only.

The question arises, if you accept Daphoenix’s guide and experience, why are you arguing with me? I’m saying literally the same things he is. If you want to be efficient, you will be using all skills at your disposal. Simple as that.

Kodiak.3281:

Combo Fields run on a few principals.

For one they require organization and group communication to be counted on reliably. This is because the first combo field placed will be the one that triggers any combo finishers. So for example a Guardian spamming Combo Light fields will often times ruin the best laid combination plans you might have. I can personally say I’ve blown up AOE Retaliation more times than I care to admit because some Guardian dropped a Symbol of Wrath right before I did my Might stacking combos. Another common culprit is Mesmers and their Ethereal fields. In larger scale WvW, Necros and wells.

For two they require sufficient finishers to be taken advantage of. For example the classic Static Field with projectile finishers. Without enough ranged people to take advantage of this, you won’t stack very high Vulnerability therefore lowering the net bonus. This creates problems with other combos like AOE Might because it requires the people to benefit to be close but they could be at range doing projectile finishers and not benefit. Support is all well and good, but simply doing support for support’s sake with no tangible benefit is completely and utterly useless.

More over, I’d argue that you’re doing your group an injustice by wasting everyone’s time trying to do group support when there’s no need for it. Granting AOE Might for one or two people could (no one knows) be worse benefit to your group than just continuing to DPS because the DPS you lost performing that AOE Might could be less than the DPS gained by the Might stacks you granted. No one can say for sure whether or not it does, but that should get you to at least think about the principal.

Point taken regarding combo fields, Myself I still feel they are worth using even in un organized groups but that’s just my opinion. As to your last paragraph, I think that so many people have that opinion and that it’s part of the problem in area’s like WvW currently. Until people change their attitudes and seek to actively work together (even pug groups COULD coordinate) WvW will continue to be controlled by the Zerg. It’s not game breaking IMO but it could be a lot more fun than it is.

Gaudrath.6725:

Adastra.9821:

Why else is daphoenix’s guide considered the holy bunker D/D ele bible? He doesn’t offer hard crunched numbers, but he does offer plenty of anecdotal evidence that doesn’t just amount to “I can solo a supply camp” and win duels.

I guess you haven’t read through the entire discussion. I already mentioned, anecdotally to boot, how using all 4 elements in staff can result in wiping out groups on walls during siege, something impossible to achieve with fire only.

The question arises, if you accept Daphoenix’s guide and experience, why are you arguing with me? I’m saying literally the same things he is. If you want to be efficient, you will be using all skills at your disposal. Simple as that.

I’ll admit I only skimmed over most of your posts on the first page because none of it had any content that offers any good explanations or evidence, or provided something I didn’t already know. You have anecdotes, but not much evidence. Some of it was wrong and/or grossly exaggerated. It was mostly “I casted skill A and this also generated effect B”, and then a weak attempt at how A and B is better than C while the effectiveness of A and B is exaggerated. There is so much more to it but you don’t consider any of the “howevers”, and you’re already preaching one playstyle which is misleading.

I acknowledge that is one way to play, and it is efficient in may aspects. This is one of the ways I’ve played since launch, with every weapon except focus, and in all game modes. I played like that before the bible was written (1 month B.C.?? B.D??). But what I’m not saying is that it is always the way to play (how many times do we have to repeat this?), which is what you’re saying. I’m also saying there are ways to play that are perfectly acceptable in different situations, some that are more effective than the rapid attunement swapping.

Gaudrath.6725:

So basically I am supposed to do an in-depth statistical and mathematical analysis, waste I don’t know how many hours just so that I can prove an obvious point to a couple of forum goers who like to ignore obvious things for the sake of being obtuse? No thanks.

This discussion is about opinions on what is an efficient and what is an inefficient use of the class. The simple fact that not using all your skills results in lower efficiency doesn’t need to be proved. Facts, in case you have forgotten how the scientific process goes, never need to be proven. They’re facts.

What Kodiak is doing is making as much sense as asking for proof that a horse can outrun a one legged man.

You’re supposed to be able to back up your claims. I think you actually said it best:

Gaudrath.6725:

…I will remind you of a simple rule in a logical debate that the burden of proof is on the one who makes the claim.

By your own words, the burden of proof is on you. Prove it.

You seem to be the one confused here at what a fact actually means. Even when taken from your Scientific viewpoint stating that “not using all our skills results in lower efficiency” is a theory and needs to be supported by facts. Maybe you’re the one who needs to freshen up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact

I realize I haven’t given you anything to attack and you can’t actually prove any of your statements, theories or claims but you really should stop coming up with random nonsense as a response. It does nothing for one’s credibility especially when others seemingly have no problems understanding what I’m asking for.

Adastra.9821:

I’ll admit I only skimmed over most of your posts on the first page because none of it had any content that offers any good explanations or evidence, or provided something I didn’t already know. You have anecdotes, but not much evidence. Some of it was wrong and/or grossly exaggerated. It was mostly “I casted skill A and this also generated effect B”, and then a weak attempt at how A and B is better than C while the effectiveness of A and B is exaggerated. There is so much more to it but you don’t consider any of the “howevers”, and you’re already preaching one playstyle which is misleading.

I acknowledge that is one way to play, and it is efficient in may aspects. This is one of the ways I’ve played since launch, with every weapon except focus, and in all game modes. I played like that before the bible was written (1 month B.C.?? B.D??). But what I’m not saying is that it is always the way to play (how many times do we have to repeat this?), which is what you’re saying. I’m also saying there are ways to play that are perfectly acceptable in different situations, some that are more effective than the rapid attunement swapping.

This is why I don’t bring up my spec or how I play. Gauddy has no proof so instead he turns it around and attacks your spec, play style and other points. It’s the classic, “If you don’t like the conversation then change the topic” tactic. He can argue against a spec or play style, what he can’t do is back up his claims.

I figure it’s only a matter of time before he stops replying all together in frustration of not being able to back up his claims or he’ll continue to try to change the conversation. However in no scenario will he actually be able to prove anything he says which is why we just keep asking for it. You can’t prove peanut butter is better than peanuts.

Kodiak.3281:

Adastra.9821:

I’ll admit I only skimmed over most of your posts on the first page because none of it had any content that offers any good explanations or evidence, or provided something I didn’t already know. You have anecdotes, but not much evidence. Some of it was wrong and/or grossly exaggerated. It was mostly “I casted skill A and this also generated effect B”, and then a weak attempt at how A and B is better than C while the effectiveness of A and B is exaggerated. There is so much more to it but you don’t consider any of the “howevers”, and you’re already preaching one playstyle which is misleading.

I acknowledge that is one way to play, and it is efficient in may aspects. This is one of the ways I’ve played since launch, with every weapon except focus, and in all game modes. I played like that before the bible was written (1 month B.C.?? B.D??). But what I’m not saying is that it is always the way to play (how many times do we have to repeat this?), which is what you’re saying. I’m also saying there are ways to play that are perfectly acceptable in different situations, some that are more effective than the rapid attunement swapping.

This is why I don’t bring up my spec or how I play. Gauddy has no proof so instead he turns it around and attacks your spec, play style and other points. It’s the classic, “If you don’t like the conversation then change the topic” tactic. He can argue against a spec or play style, what he can’t do is back up his claims.

I figure it’s only a matter of time before he stops replying all together in frustration of not being able to back up his claims or he’ll continue to try to change the conversation. However in no scenario will he actually be able to prove anything he says which is why we just keep asking for it. You can’t prove peanut butter is better than peanuts.

So basically, you’re trolling. You refuse to specify what you think is an inefficient way to play an elementalist, instead focusing on repeating your mantra that nothing can be proven.

Furthermore, I offered proof more than once. Not the mathematical kind you seem to insist on (probably because you know I won’t dedicate the kind of time necessary to come up with one), but empirical proof. I have experiences I already mentioned, soloing champions, supply camps, winning duels with staff, bursting down PvE and WvW enemies with staff etc. and doing those things only because I used every single possible advantage I had. I invite you to replicate any of those using only fire. I for sure cannot even come close to that, but hey, maybe I’m just a terrible player, who knows.

But, I don’t know of any one player who can, actually. So based on the empirical data we have, which is that if you don’t use all four elements you are incapable of achieving things those who do use them can, we can safely assume that not using your class mechanic is a good way to tear a big chunk out of your overall effectiveness.

Now you have two choices:

1. You can behave like creationists in an evolution debate and insist it is only a theory while refusing to even approach anything resembling a discussion, in which case I have really nothing more to say to you.

2. You can discuss this empirical data, and possibly counter it by adding your own. Do you know of any single elementalist who can achieve any of the above mentioned things by staying in fire only? Can you? Do share.

No, I claim that those are facts based on empirical evidence. Again, we have access to empirical data from simply playing the game. Furthermore, if what we were arguing were minor discrepancies, then I’d see the need to employ math because we would be arguing over something that requires precision to confirm or deny.

But we’re not. The difference in efficiency and even base playability between a player who uses all four elements and one who does not is so great, wasting time on crunching numbers would be like crunching numbers to show which one is faster at top speed, a motorcyle or a bycicle. It’s pointless. Some things are self-evident.

Again I invite you or anyone else to demonstrate or find an example that they can perform just as well using only fire as a player who uses the full potential of the class. It’s easy. Fire up the game and play it. Solo a champ using only fire, or try to solo players in sPvP and WvW using only fire. These things are definitely possible for elementalists, regardless of weapon sets. Let us see if they are possible for “fire mages”.

Gaudrath.6725:

So basically, you’re trolling. You refuse to specify what you think is an inefficient way to play an elementalist, instead focusing on repeating your mantra that nothing can be proven.

Furthermore, I offered proof more than once. Not the mathematical kind you seem to insist on (probably because you know I won’t dedicate the kind of time necessary to come up with one), but empirical proof. I have experiences I already mentioned, soloing champions, supply camps, winning duels with staff, bursting down PvE and WvW enemies with staff etc. and doing those things only because I used every single possible advantage I had. I invite you to replicate any of those using only fire. I for sure cannot even come close to that, but hey, maybe I’m just a terrible player, who knows.

But, I don’t know of any one player who can, actually. So based on the empirical data we have, which is that if you don’t use all four elements you are incapable of achieving things those who do use them can, we can safely assume that not using your class mechanic is a good way to tear a big chunk out of your overall effectiveness.

Now you have two choices:

1. You can behave like creationists in an evolution debate and insist it is only a theory while refusing to even approach anything resembling a discussion, in which case I have really nothing more to say to you.

2. You can discuss this empirical data, and possibly counter it by adding your own. Do you know of any single elementalist who can achieve any of the above mentioned things by staying in fire only? Can you? Do share.

I am not trolling, I’m calling your claims out for the opinions that they are with no proof to back them up. You know you have no proof to back it up so you continue to try to attack me in other ways rather than address the points at hand (such as calling me a troll).

Empirical proof is not based in fact but based on observation. The inherent problem with empirical proof is it’s entirely interpretive. You see the result, and propose a theory of why the result came about with no facts to back it up other than the results. I’m saying you can’t prove your theory and it’s little different than you saying the moon rises because a Roman God pulls it around the world each day (I liked that analogy). When asked for proof, you state, “The sun rises!”

Personally I don’t think you can do anything you claim and therefore I think your results and theory is invalid. Empirical data shows that you’re a lot of talk but show no results. Therefore I can only theorize, based on the empirical data provided, you can’t do anything you claim to do.

Gaudrath.6725:

But we’re not. The difference in efficiency and even base playability between a player who uses all four elements and one who does not is so great, wasting time on crunching numbers would be like crunching numbers to show which one is faster at top speed, a motorcyle or a bycicle. It’s pointless. Some things are self-evident.

You have it backwards. If it was so great a difference it’d be trivial and easy to prove because it is so self-evident. How easy is it to show that a thousand is greater than 10? This is just a cop-out because you know you can’t actually prove your point so you say you shouldn’t have to.

Kodiak.3281:

You have it backwards. If it was so great a difference it’d be trivial and easy to prove because it is so self-evident. How easy is it to show that a thousand is greater than 10? This is just a cop-out because you know you can’t actually prove your point so you say you shouldn’t have to.

That’s the entire reason I said you were trolling. Despite what you’re claiming, the difference IS that huge and it is that obvious to anyone who bothers to play the game.

The proof is right there. Play the game, see for yourself. I noticed, by the way, that you conveniently keep sidestepping my invitations to prove me wrong by simply playing the game for ten minutes as a fire mage and showing us all how awesome and equally powerful that is compared with using all four elements.

Also, it doesn’t matter if you believe if I can do the stuff I mentioned. There are plenty of gameplay videos from other players showing how to solo supply camps, PvE champs and win duels or even 1vsX fights, and all of them use every skill at their disposal. I do hope video evidence is enough for you and you won’t ask for written and signed testimonials valid in court as well!

I mean, I could play the game as a fire mage and fraps it, but it would only show me failing miserably because I would have no access to any kind of CC and healing, which is what I’m saying in the first place. In order to avoid any doubts that I’m “rigging up data”, you have to find or produce yourself evidence that my claims are incorrect. So far all available data shows they are not.

This is all a bit ridiculous, but there you have it, if you want to be all proper about it.

I don’t think there’s anything explicitly ‘wrong’, maybe inefficient?

I would say that for a staff ele in general pve, staying in fire is pretty effective. However this will often depend on how you are traited and the situation at hand.

Definitely no need to go all crazy attunement swap on a Moa. Most mobs are just fodder for lava font. They melt pretty easily and it saves my attunements. I only tend to swap against more challenging things. Risen will probably see an attunement cycle, although depending on how lazy I am I may just lava font them to death since most monsters have pretty poor pathing and it’s easy to keep them in there.

In group play however, I’ll break out the combo fields perhaps to give the illusion that I’m contributing to the group- and to not seem selfish. Unfortunately, most people really don’t know how to use combo fields effectively though, so often I’m just finishing my own with arcane wave or eruption. Situations like that can definitely benefit from attunement swapping. Same applies for tougher monsters, where cc and weakness may last long enough to actually be noticeable.

In other modes of play, I’m sure you’ll need to take full advantage of the skills at hand. In PvE though, you (well, myself at least) just want to kill things fast. I think trying to break out cc, weakness etc can be useful against tougher monsters, but if weaker monsters die in 3 hits anyway, I’d rather just kill quickly and move on.

Upon reading this whole conversation, I figured I would chime it.

I currently am a staff ele (never played D/S/F at all besides learning the skills). I am spec’ed 30/10/0/10/20. I have Superior Runes of Balthazar and Superior Sigil of Accuracy. So that is me.

When I solo (pve), I hardly ever switch out of fire, unless I am getting in trouble and need to root the mob or need to toss some healing out. This works really well FOR ME, may not for others.

Group Play – Dungeons
I have found (In my experiences) That during group play I need to switch attunements to help the group. I have tested playing and staying in just fire and then doing the same run and switching attunements. I have found that the mobs go down faster when I switch attunements while in a group then when I stay just in fire. I think my overall DPS does drop, but that is made up for by the fields I setup for my teammates to use and helps their DPS go up or lowers the mobs DPS. I still spend 65% to 75% of my time in fire, but by utilizing the fields at the proper times it willing helps the overall DPS of the group, but not me.

So by the argument on this thread, I would have to say both of them are correct. Staying in fire YOUR personal DPS does stay higher. But the overall DPS of the group COULD be lower. By switching attunements and utilizing the different fields we are giving and at the proper times, switching attunements can help raise the OVERALL DPS of the group.

Just my opinion based on my personal observation. It could be wrong and I am not seeing something right but that is the way it looks to me.

Personally, if I’m fighting single PvE mobs, I do use fire most of the time since they go relatively fast. If I want to be flashy, I burst them down using rapid rotation and hard hitting spells from all four elements, usually killing them faster than just with fire. However, it requires more work and for easy stuff it usually is enough to just use fire #3, #2, #1 #1 #1 – until dead.

For PvE groups of mobs, I use all elements, usually chilling them and stunning them to get more time (when with staff), though when I solo groups of mobs I usually go with a D/D setup which has much higher DPS and burst with my build.

Gaudrath.6725:

Despite what you’re claiming, the difference IS that huge and it is that obvious to anyone who bothers to play the game.

The proof is right there. Play the game, see for yourself. I noticed, by the way, that you conveniently keep sidestepping my invitations to prove me wrong by simply playing the game for ten minutes as a fire mage and showing us all how awesome and equally powerful that is compared with using all four elements.

If it’s such a large difference, it would be easy to prove. You seem to be unable to provide proof however.

I play the game. What you say is not self evident. I don’t have to prove anything other than backing up my claim: You can’t prove one is better than another. I don’t have to disprove your claim in order to state you can’t prove yours is better. That is, again, like telling me to disprove the Roman god pulling the sun up each morning. If I can’t disprove it, then it must be true? You’re being absurd again.

The rest…being paranoid about what “tricks” I might pull would be moot if you had actual facts to back up what you say. But you know as well as I know that most videos are edited to show off an ideal (if not extreme) scenario because who ever creates a video of failure?

Situationally being awesome at a particular task doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the right way to play and another way is wrong. As others have echo’d there are many cases where sticking to Fire is superior to swapping attunements. Am I to believe them because they say it in the same light as I’m to believe you because you say it? I believe none of it because no one has proven any of it.

Conjure Earth Shield. Worst idea ever

Hjorje.9453:

So by the argument on this thread, I would have to say both of them are correct. Staying in fire YOUR personal DPS does stay higher. But the overall DPS of the group COULD be lower. By switching attunements and utilizing the different fields we are giving and at the proper times, switching attunements can help raise the OVERALL DPS of the group.

Just my opinion based on my personal observation. It could be wrong and I am not seeing something right but that is the way it looks to me.

Probably the most reasonable post in this entire thread

Kodiak.3281:

You have no way to prove swapping attunements will yield higher DPS. In the same light, I have no way of ever proving that staying in Fire full time to DPS will out perform swapping attunements.

Well, since the damage formula, skill damage numbers, skill and attunement swap cooldowns, etc. are known, you could calculate DPS for various sequences of actions…

Kodiak.3281:

As others have echo’d there are many cases where sticking to Fire is superior to swapping attunements. Am I to believe them because they say it in the same light as I’m to believe you because you say it? I believe none of it because no one has proven any of it.

So what’s your purpose in this thread? You might as well have said that this entire thread is nonsense to you and moved on already.