Guild Wars 2

It has become a widespread opinion in this forum that elementalists require too much effort to play, and this becomes clear when we experiment with other professions. May we be newbies or pros, it is clear that we must master this profession to do anything meaningful. And the pro players will tell you right after, of course, if you don’t master the profession, you shouldn’t get any results. But because some of us have experimented with other professions, we’ll quickly notice that even other hard-to-master classes have an easier time in general PvE. Why is that? Oh, in a hard battle, both that Mesmer player and that Elementalist player must “l2p” (learn to play) and make the best use of everything they have to win, surely! But, against normal PvE foes, like that generic wolf outside of your city, why must a Mesmer, which is equally hard to play with, can finish it off with little effort, while an Elementalist player must still fight it as if it was the final boss of the game?

For a moment, I was under the idea that it was all because of the attunement system, and the fact that we have to press more buttons to do anything, coupled with our lack of passive defense. But after analyzing myself playing with a Mesmer and a Guardian, I actually believe we Elementalists are in this stressful situation because of our auto-attacks are not meaningful enough. Think about it:

The general playstyle of a profession in this game has a healthy balance between auto-attacks and other skills. Generally, you try to use other skills at the best moment you could use them, while auto-attacking in between.

A greatsword Mesmer will set up their illusions somewhere around the fight, and then try to keep distance and auto-attack while waiting for the best moment to use their push-back skill, before changing to another weapon. A Staff Mesmer will rely on condition stacking through auto-attacks after they set their combo, a Scepter Mesmer will generate clones with skill #1, and a Sword Mesmer will apply vulnerability with normal attacks and clones before setting up a big burst with blurred frenzy + shatter. Likewise, a Staff Guardian will auto-attack (and use skill #2) while waiting for the best moments to support the party, or a Hammer Guardian will set their symbol of protection by auto-attacking to make better use of it right after. I could go on.

The reason why Elementalists require so much effort, even for easy fights, is because their auto-attacks are not meaningful, exceptions aside. Elementalists die so easily, require attunement swapping so much, must use a lot of skills to burst and a lot of skills to survive, that you are left with little to no time to auto-attack, and when you do, they are just filler, and have little to offer. Maybe a Staff elementalist can throw fireballs while skill #2 is recharging, or even better, keep the foe weakened while waiting for the best moments to set up their earth CC skills. But those are more the exceptions than the rules. To kill your average enemy, you must dance through attunements to survive, and then to set up a spike, and then to spike, and then to survive again, and blow all your cooldowns, even when the enemy is… easy.

It’s perfectly logical that against a hard enemy, an Elementalist player must use everything they have to use, just like a Mesmer or any other must also do their best. But when you go against that generic wolf, and then against the generic wolf right after, and then battle yet another generic wolf 15 seconds later, it’s stressful when every single of those unimportant moments requires a lot of effort for the sake of a normal mob, for the elementalist. While a mesmer, or any other profession, can just slack off a bit and rely a little bit more on auto-attacking, even if they must play well and time other skills right, and this healthier balance between strategic skills and auto-attacking make all non-elementalist professions more fluid to play with in general PvE, give you more time to breath, help break the pace, and simply keep you more relaxed.

Well thought out. I hope something is done soon.

I agree, but let me add a thought.
Arenanet has compensated for elementalists having 20 weapon skills by making the skills weaker, as well as adding longer cooldowns. So what you get in the end is 16 auto attack strength skills, and 4 skills that are even weaker than another classes autoattack. This is why people get the feeling like no matter what they do they cant seem to do more damage, and that it requires so much effort for the same result.

In theory, anet thinks that it is balanced out by the fact that you have skills to use for every situation. Well, no. Attunements are the elementalists class mechanic. Its supposed to make us more powerful, not keep us at the same level. With a ranger, their class mechanic of having a pet, effectively making every 1v1 the ranger is in into a 1v(1+1/2) with no drawbacks at all. Seems fair? nah.

Solution : Buff our skills. That’s all they have to do. Simple, right?

DiogoSilva.7089:

But, against normal PvE foes, like that generic wolf outside of your city, why must a Mesmer, which is equally hard to play with, can finish it off with little effort, while an Elementalist player must still fight it as if it was the final boss of the game?

Um. I hope that is highly exaggerated, because that is not how I feel in the least.

Although you’re right buffing auto attacks would help take a lot of the burdern off of us, I’m just afraid it might demote attunement swapping since utilising other skills would interrupt our auto-attack fillers (in boss fights mostly). You would need to buff our other skills a tiny bit as well as the auto-attacks to make this work out. I agree this is one of the best ways to address the elementalist’s problems.

DiogoSilva.7089:

The reason why Elementalists require so much effort, even for easy fights, is because their auto-attacks are not meaningful, exceptions aside.

Could you be more specific than that? We have a total of 12 different auto attacks across our three main-hand land weapons. Some just do damage, some have additional effects, some are projectiles, some explode, some are short range, some are long range, some cause conditions… they’re all different.

What could you see changed, specifically, to make our auto attacks more “meaningful” compared to what other professions have?

I have noticed that not a single one causes self-buffs, like some other profession auto attacks do.

I really think more meaningul auto-attacks could come a long way. I forgot to mention, but for longer fights, when all our skills are recharging, auto-attacks become even more important.

There are a lot of details to keep our power in check. It’s not only that we have weaker skills, simpler skills and longer recharges than other professions. We also have longer casting times, the worst passive defense of the entire game with no main mechanics to support it (no stealth, no clones, no virtues, no main pet), and we also have to sacrifice a lot when we change attunements (to deal any damage, you must sacrifice any defence from your weapon skills, and vice-versa, exceptions aside).

With all this considered, would better auto-attacks break the elementalist? To note that there’s already a few meaningful ones. Dagger’s water #1 or Staff’s earth #1 are worth by themselves. One sets up a spike before switching attunements, the other keeps your foe weakened while you find the best moment to use your other skills. But other than a few examples, they offer nothing. Will an elementalist ever need to use their Dagger’s fire #1? Drake’s Breath is so much stronger for a very small recharge, and chances are, when everything else is on recharge, you’ll want to switch your attunement, even if the attunement you’re switching to is not the best for the situation.

EDIT: Suggestions? Give more utility to auto-attacks, and make them more relevant to the strategy behind their skill set. No need for a damage increase.

If MH dagger’s air is a defensive line, why does lightning whip not contribute to it? You switch to air for the shocking aura and the weakness effect from #2 skill, and then switch out, because if you want to deal damage, you’re much better coming back to fire or earth, than using the pointless attack. Just an example.

Suggestion for that example: Have the whip inflict 1s weakness per hit, while skill #2 do something else equally defensive but more damaging. This way, spending a few seconds stacking weakness with an auto-attack is fairly nice, more relaxed, and comes at the cost that you’re doing nothing else in the meantime, so it wouldn’t overshadow other options nor other attunements, nor be too strong by itself.

This is ridiculous. If you’re having to use all four bars to kill regular mobs in PvE, perhaps you should stop gearing and traiting as a glass cannon? Against regular mobs, I never swap attunements unless I pull a bunch at once.

There’s reason we tell you to “learn to play”. It’s not just learning what skills you have. It’s learning to not be dumb and put all of your everything into power. A little toughness goes a long way.

I certainly don’t fight every mob like it’s a boss. I fight bosses like they’re bosses (like a boss). Are we squishier than all of the other professions? Of course! But, we certainly don’t do drastically less damage than anyone else.

Please stop complaining about how elementalists are underpowered or suck until you stop trying to be a glass cannon, use your dodge key once in a while, and actually do learn how to play this game.

I don’t know if you’ve tried mesmer in PVE but in my experience they’re bollocks. I have to try much harder in PVE with a mesmer than an ele, attributed mostly to the fact that a lot of the damage comes from phantasms which die very easily.

To be honest, I feel like they should just straight-up increase Elementalist skill damage. I see a lot of topics about elementalists being underpowered and a lot of people giving reasons why they feel this way. This is what I got from all of that.

1. Attunement swapping is a good concept but it makes playing elementalist involve more effort. The reward is not greater than that of other classes so why the extra effort?

2. Elementalists have low HP and low Armor (but that’s to be expected since mages generally have more AoE/do more damage) yet.. many other professions put out similar damage (if not more) without being as squishy.

3. Elementalist traits seem to be pretty limiting. Some people prefer certain elements but are forced to use (primarily) a different element due to how traits are set up for an ele. If you want to increase your damage, you have to put points into the fire trait.. Precision = Air, Toughness = Earth, Vit = Water. With this setup, it seems to limit your build choices. If you want to go full crit damage, you put points into fire and air. You’ll be super squishy with the combination of light armor and lack of points in earth/water… but you’ll put out more pure damage. Yet, like stated before, other classes have a similar (or greater) damage potential.

There is no primary support class and each class has a self-heal so healing from the water element isn’t that great. That and there are limited spells to heal (and you can’t swap weapons during combat on an elementalist) so you get stuck with 2 healing skills in a staff support build. So you invest 30 points into healing for little return and lose a great deal of damage in the process. If you’re going support you want to stay alive so you’ll probably have quite a few points into Earth as well… So then you do very little damage and your healing/utility doesn’t really make up for it (which makes you a waste of a party space in a dungeon to some people) It seems like water, is pretty pathetic (which is sad because it’s generally my favorite).

4. Weapon tradeoffs: If you want to go Dagger/Dagger, you gain a lot of damaging spells but you also have to be in direct contact with your enemy to do so. The more points you invest in damage, the squishier you are. The more points you invest in survival, the less damage you will do. Obviously there has to be a tradeoff for doing more damage.. but I feel like Ele’s have it a bit extreme. Scepters aren’t useless but they don’t really excel at anything. Staves have a long range aoe plus utility. Dual daggers have quicker, burst type attacks. Scepters are kinda just there.

Ayame Yoshimoto.1860:

This is ridiculous. If you’re having to use all four bars to kill regular mobs in PvE, perhaps you should stop gearing and traiting as a glass cannon? Against regular mobs, I never swap attunements unless I pull a bunch at once.

There’s reason we tell you to “learn to play”. It’s not just learning what skills you have. It’s learning to not be dumb and put all of your everything into power. A little toughness goes a long way.

I certainly don’t fight every mob like it’s a boss. I fight bosses like they’re bosses (like a boss). Are we squishier than all of the other professions? Of course! But, we certainly don’t do drastically less damage than anyone else.

Please stop complaining about how elementalists are underpowered or suck until you stop trying to be a glass cannon, use your dodge key once in a while, and actually do learn how to play this game.

You dont swap attunements while you are fighting and you are telling us to “learn to play”? lol.

And its not only about pve. Pve is easy with any profession. The main problem is with spvp, where the elementalist is subpar.

Ayame Yoshimoto.1860:

This is ridiculous. If you’re having to use all four bars to kill regular mobs in PvE, perhaps you should stop gearing and traiting as a glass cannon? Against regular mobs, I never swap attunements unless I pull a bunch at once.

There’s reason we tell you to “learn to play”. It’s not just learning what skills you have. It’s learning to not be dumb and put all of your everything into power. A little toughness goes a long way.

I certainly don’t fight every mob like it’s a boss. I fight bosses like they’re bosses (like a boss). Are we squishier than all of the other professions? Of course! But, we certainly don’t do drastically less damage than anyone else.

Please stop complaining about how elementalists are underpowered or suck until you stop trying to be a glass cannon, use your dodge key once in a while, and actually do learn how to play this game.

You’re judging my builds without knowing what they are, my ability to play without knowing how I play, and then, much like our other “pro” elementalist players in this board, come in to suggest extremely basic game advice like “dodge lol”, which, honestly, is pretty much common knowledge around here.

I have a fire/ earth trait build (hey, I have toughness, who would have guessed?), I constantly use my dodge keys (in fact, my build is around dodging, with evasive arcane and stronger endurance regeneration), I love dodging btw, and yes, before you give me more pro advice that no-one-has-heard-before, I also dance through my attunements and know how to hit the right skills for the right situations.

And if for an elementalist to do any good, they must be forced to use a very specific build, then that by itself is already problematic.

Finally, I’m not even saying that elementalists suck in this topic. I don’t think they suck. I’m giving my point-of-view about why they require more effort than normal, and an alternative suggestion to fix that instead of a straight-up buff to all skills.

DiogoSilva.7089:

because if you want to deal damage, you’re much better coming back to fire or earth

Here’s the problem you’re having. It’s not all about dealing damage. It’s really not.

DrakeWurrum.6049:

DiogoSilva.7089:

because if you want to deal damage, you’re much better coming back to fire or earth

Here’s the problem you’re having. It’s not all about dealing damage. It’s really not.

Here’s the problem you’re having: you didn’t read correctly what I’ve said.

When all your DD air skills are under recharge, what do you think it’s the best to do, spam the whip, or change to fire/ earth?

You say it’s not all about damage, but there’s literally nothing else to do but damage when your dagger air skills are under recharge, because Lightning Whip does nothing but deal damage.

What’s “best to do” is situational. It might be better to just sit and wait for a bit, as not all of your cooldowns are really that significantly long.

DrakeWurrum.6049:

What’s “best to do” is situational. It might be better to just sit and wait for a bit, as not all of your cooldowns are really that significantly long.

It’s nice when we’re about to kill an enemy and are too lazy to switch back, but generally, an elementalist that is stuck on air spamming Lightning Whip, with all other air skills under full recharge and all other attunements available to use, leads to very poor results.

The only exception I might see is if fire and earth were under recharge, but even then you could switch to water and stack vulnerability for a later big burst (and still have enough defensive skills to use in the meantime).

There’s a reason that certain traits reward you for remaining in air attunement longer, you know.

I think everyone needs to stop arguing about the profession as a whole and stick to the title of the thread. If you don’t agree that it’s too much effort to do the same damage as almost all other classes then you’re likely an idiot. The bottom line is i shouldn’t have to put in X amount of APM over everyone else.

It’s likely more noticeable because the “lifesaving” attunements don’t save our lives and we have to rely on our evasion just as much as a more nimble profession.

One thing I noticed (and discouraged me incredibly while leveling) is the scaling seems to fluctuate a lot. Around level 25-35 I felt ridiculously week and then it started going back up again beyond that.

The only thing i can say is, if we are going to have to play the profession like this then at least make it rewarding and not just ‘on-par’ with other classes.

DrakeWurrum.6049:

There’s a reason that certain traits reward you for remaining in air attunement longer, you know.

So spamming Lightning Whip is worth it because you can move 10% faster? You won’t even get that bonus if you’re not traited for it.

Let’s get back on topic, please.

Honestly, I wholeheartedly disagree that the Elementalists require TOO much effort to play. I actually do enjoy the challenge of taking on 3 foes at a time and having to switch between my attunements/conjured weapons. I like this class the best out of all the others BECAUSE of the effort that it takes. I am not experiencing the issue where the OT talks about a standard wolf equating to a boss monster at all. Perhaps it is because I am only level 30 with my Elementalist and I have been purchasing decent gear off the trading post.

If it came to where I only had to stay in 1 attunement for a majority of the fights, especially in a difficult fight, I would like to believe that I would pick a different profession to play. I really enjoy the notion that I have to keep track of the different spells and cooldowns of each spell… It really adds a new dimension of playing a mage archetype that I have never experienced anywhere else.

I would, however, like to see my damage increased, but who wouldn’t? I do feel like I have to purchase things off the trading post in order to stay on par with my Warrior friend who very rarely purchases gear off the trading post, but hey… We all know that Warriors are overpowered right? heheh

I think it’s more of an overall effectivity issue. Even if autoattacks were to be buffed considerably, switching attunements and firing the other damage / utility spells will simply be more useful in most situations.

The truth is indeed that the Elementalist currently requires a lot more work and quick thinking than most other classes, and is only up to par with them if played almost flawlessly. When comparing that to the ease of use of a thief or mesmer it’s not hard to see where all the nerf calls for said classes are coming from.
People getting better at the Ele and a few balance nudges will help to make the issue less severe – but as the class is designed right now, going the extra mile will always be mandatory in order to remain competitive.

Hats off to those few of you who still manage to excel in tPvP.

Ethrin.6287:

Honestly, I wholeheartedly disagree that the Elementalists require TOO much effort to play. I actually do enjoy the challenge of taking on 3 foes at a time and having to switch between my attunements/conjured weapons. I like this class the best out of all the others BECAUSE of the effort that it takes. I am not experiencing the issue where the OT talks about a standard wolf equating to a boss monster at all. Perhaps it is because I am only level 30 with my Elementalist and I have been purchasing decent gear off the trading post.

Past 70 it gets exponentially harder. Mobs are 50% of the times grouped, well packed so when you kite it’s very easy to pull 5-6 more. Plus they come with a number of cripples, DoTs, heal debuffs and nasty long knockdowns.

You’ll see Rangers and warriors still zipping thru mobs like butter, while you’ll take 2-3 minutes to clear the two risen blocking your way.

There are non elite mobs like risen gorillas that can kill your 15k health in 2-3 seconds if you are super tank geared and specced (not talking of people in full exotic).
At the same time your autoattack hits them for 150…

End result: enter the waypoint all to the SW of Cursed Shore (the one on the SW isle).

You will probably NOT be able to get out alive. The ultra-low Ele DPS won’t kill the 5-6 mobs per room before they begin to repop in your face and you die.

In the mean time, while laying dead on the floor, you’ll see rangers, warriors and necros kill everything and come ress you and then go ahead before the mobs respawned…

Vaerah.4907:

Ethrin.6287:

Honestly, I wholeheartedly disagree that the Elementalists require TOO much effort to play. I actually do enjoy the challenge of taking on 3 foes at a time and having to switch between my attunements/conjured weapons. I like this class the best out of all the others BECAUSE of the effort that it takes. I am not experiencing the issue where the OT talks about a standard wolf equating to a boss monster at all. Perhaps it is because I am only level 30 with my Elementalist and I have been purchasing decent gear off the trading post.

Past 70 it gets exponentially harder. Mobs are 50% of the times grouped, well packed so when you kite it’s very easy to pull 5-6 more. Plus they come with a number of cripples, DoTs, heal debuffs and nasty long knockdowns.

You’ll see Rangers and warriors still zipping thru mobs like butter, while you’ll take 2-3 minutes to clear the two risen blocking your way.

There are non elite mobs like risen gorillas that can kill your 15k health in 2-3 seconds if you are super tank geared and specced (not talking of people in full exotic).
At the same time your autoattack hits them for 150…

End result: enter the waypoint all to the SW of Cursed Shore (the one on the SW isle).

You will probably NOT be able to get out alive. The ultra-low Ele DPS won’t kill the 5-6 mobs per room before they begin to repop in your face and you die.

In the mean time, while laying dead on the floor, you’ll see rangers, warriors and necros kill everything and come ress you and then go ahead before the mobs respawned…

This ^

Elementalist pre-70 is fine. Some work. Lots of kiting and dodging still.

Post-70 esp in Cursed Shores are nightmare. With packed mobs, not much areas to move around, soloing in L80 is not my definition of fun.

Diogo can’t put it better. Our everyday mobs are like our greatest challenges each time. I play this game to have fun. GW2 combat itself is already challenging. Having to do too much work to kill some random enemy is getting very tiring.

I agree wholeheartedly with this theory.

Autoattacks really should be a major component to a character’s damage, if not the greatest contributor. It’s very obvious when playing…well, basically everyone except the Elementalist, that your skills are essentially tools that should be used judiciously, when the player deems it appropriate, and not as soon as the icon resaturates and the skill comes off cooldown. Even the damage skills, like Hundred Blades or Zealot’s Defense, have a time and place and shouldn’t just be cast immediately.

(Bear in mind my opinion primarily comes from use of daggers, but I believe to be true for other weapons as well)

However, when playing an Elementalist, the feeling is very different. Once you begin a fight or switch attunements, there’s a pressure to cast everything. Of course there’s some order to it, and one shouldn’t just cast haphazardly. You want fire fields down as soon as possible, you want to hold on Churning Earth until the enemy is disabled (and you’re ballsey enough to try casting it), whatever. But in order to feel effective, or to even be effective, you want to cast everything in your attunement, and then as soon as possible, switch to something else and work another attunement. There’s no reason not to cast everything on a bar before switching. While wielding daggers, the only skill I typically don’t bother casting is Magnetic Grasp because I feel it’s the only skill that if I cast would slow me down. And once your skills are on cooldown, there’s virtually no incentive to not swap attunements immediately.

It’s stressful and fatiguing, and while I do enjoy my Elementalist immensely, I don’t think it’s good design. If autoattack skills were more powerful, even if just by a blanket increase to damage, it would help lift this problem off our shoulders. By having effective autoattacks, our use of skills could be more meaningful, more thoughtful, and less mandatory.

And this would be in no way gamebreaking. Obviously, only one autoattack is available at any given time, regardless of attunement. Unlike other skills, it’s no some cooldown a player can cherrypick, and so doesn’t contribute to the inherent balance issue presented by the Elementalist.

Also, I think it’s extremely necessary that dagger autoattacks all have the ability to hit multiple opponents. Yes, their “melee range” is slightly further away than other professions’, but it’s still an extremely dangerous place to be. For Guardians and Warriors, all non-ranged autoattacks affect multiple opponents. Mesmers as well. Being only able to attack one enemy in melee feels extremely limiting, and I think Elementalist daggers, as well as all other melee weapons, need to be able to do the same.