(edited by Rieselle.5079)
We need a bar!
i really like this. i would still like some kind of activation ability to give us something else then just “weapon swap”, but the ability to decide do i want to go from earth, fire, earth, fire (then fully out of “energy”) or do i want earth,fire,water,lightning, then wait.. this would add alot more tactics and more importently more freedom to the class and remove some of the major handicap that attunement is forcing on the ele right now
(edited by Erebus.7568)
This is a REALLY GOOD IDEA! Unfortunately, it would require a lot of work and won’t happen. I would love if it did though!
But what would happen to Fresh Air?
Or just take away all the nerfs that were put in place for no good reason.
Yeah, and put it right next to the WvW portals so we can get loaded before heading out to battle!
… Oh, not that kind of bar.
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^ That’s exactly what I thought when I saw this
That is…actually a really cool idea and would be more interesting than what we have right now, I think.
Even if attunements had 0 cooldowns (and their proc effects had a 10 second cooldown) it wouldn’t be OP.
It would just give us the access to our high cooldown abilities when we ACTUALLY need them, and wouldn’t lock ourselves out of any dmg for 10-16 seconds if we decide to use something other than fire (like for staves).
You don’t see Engineers dealing with cooldowns for swapping kits and locking themselves out of dmg or important cooldowns like toolkit block/pull etc.
That said, atleast this is a good compromise since Anet would never make attunements 0 cooldown.
But what would happen to Fresh Air?
I’d imagine crits would fill a bar (10s cooldown?) It wouldn’t really be that overpowered, the spell cooldowns would still be there, the burning / healing / cleanse / might / protection / stability would go up a bit (but only one from each set in any given x/30/x/x/x build), but is that really devastating in the current meta?
(edited by emikochan.8504)
if they reworked the trait lines and got rid of the 20% CD , and 10% damage lines we could have something like : Fire – when bar is full +20% damage with that element , AIR- when bar is full -20% CD for that element ,Water – when bar is full you are immune to that elements conditions ie , if your attuned to fire immune to burning , water immune to chill , earth immune to cripple , and air immune to blind. Earth- when bar is full your conditions of that element last 20% longer. It would make sitting in 1 attunement and only having access to 5 skills give you a nice bonus. maybe make these all the 25 point trait so you cant take too many of them.
We don’t need another layer of mechanics. It will just act as another weight to balance against—you need to make sure that a “full bar” Ele isn’t OP, which is likely to result in an empty bar Ele being dramatically underpowered.
(if a full bar doesn’t bestow a noticeable difference over an empty one, why have it?)
We don’t need another layer of mechanics. It will just act as another weight to balance against—you need to make sure that a “full bar” Ele isn’t OP, which is likely to result in an empty bar Ele being dramatically underpowered.
(if a full bar doesn’t bestow a noticeable difference over an empty one, why have it?)
If you always view things through a linear lense (strong vs. weak) then we will never get any build variety.
There needs to be more than one dimension of benefit if you want to have build variety, otherwise you will always just end up with the highest DPS being king.
Not only do we have different roles and game modes to cater for, we also have different player styles. Some players might enjoy attunement dancing, some players prefer to stick to single attunements, and some might like to switch strategically at the right times. Skeptics will say that there is only ever “one strongest build”, but at the very least, we can design the class so that different builds excel in different situations.
Anyways, as an example, here’s some ideas:
- If we take an untraited Ele doing a rotation of fire attacks, let’s say his DPS, Defense, healing, etc. is “100%” – just an arbitrary figure as a baseline.
- Let’s say an attune-dancing Ele played to full potential has 200% in all of those areas, via boons and effects generated through attunement switching and combo fields. However, this performance is somewhat fragile, since it requires a lot of button presses and can be impeded by stuns/knockdowns/etc. And also the boons can be stripped or punished.
- Let’s say a fire-attune traited Ele can stay in Fire attunement with full bar and do 200% DPS. With Might and Fury from other players, even more. However, defense, healing, support are all still at 100%. Even so, the DPS boost from traits is more reliable and is less brittle than the overall boost that the attune-dancing Ele gets.
- Similarly, an earth-attune traited Ele might have 200% in defense and condition damage, water in healing and support, etc.
A way we can introduce these kinds of tradeoffs is to split the Grandmaster trait in each line into: One trait that benefits attunement switching, and one trait that benefits full bar.
eg. (XI) New Fresh Air: When in Air attune, gain one bar segment on critical hit. ICD 4s.
(XII) Lightning Strikes Twice: When in Air attune, if your bar is full, then each attack that hits has a 33% chance of generating a lightning strike.
So yeah, with 30 Arcana, you still have the chance to take 30 in another trait line if you want. 30 Arcana can have many traits and minors that create boons and effects on attune switch, and then New Fresh Air will generate lots of bar that lets you switch more often.
Whereas the full-bar trait is some sort of damage increase, but slightly more interesting than just a % increase. (the lightning strike has its own chance to proc critical hits and sigil effects.)
Elementalists are by design supposed to use all four attunements. The proposal here, would make elementalists play more like other classes, which we have enough of.
Having to wait before you can switch back, is a mechanic that makes the elementalists interesting, and it requires some tactics.
Elementalists should be balanced around this though. A problem with trait lines, is that they only buff one attunement (except arcana), and you will stay within one attunement a shorter amount of time, compare to having two weapons.
A comparison:
Warrior’s have a 10% damage bonus master trait for spears and greatswords.
Elementalists have a 10% damage bonus master trait while attuned to earth.
An warrior may be specced to use greatsword as primary damage dealer, but regardless this trait will count for half his weapon abilities. A warrior may also have most damage tied up in one weapon, with the other weapon being used more for survivability.
For the elementalist however the damage will only count for one attunement, and the elementalist can’t rely on one attunement alone for damage to the degree that a warrior can.
The conclusion that can be drawn, is that a warrior will be able to benefit more from this trait, than an elementalist can.
Honestly, I never saw the point of a CD on attunement swapping.
Regardless of how fast you can switch attunements, the individual skills are going to be on CD. So if you used all your water skills, they’re going to be on the same CD whether attunement swapping has a 15 second timer, a 0 second timer or a bazillion minutes timer.
The only need for a CD in terms of balance is to limit “on weapon swap” mechanics, like Electric Discharge or Elemental Attunement. The thing is, there’s already a massive precedent for internal CDs on individual issues like this, such as weapon sigils or traits like Evasive Arcana.
It seems that the Attunement Swap mechanic really just adds artificial complexity in the form of more mental gymnastics by forcing Ele players to memorize rotations and multiple hidden and layered cooldowns (i.e. you’re waiting on Churning Earth, and have to contend with both the attunement CD and the cooldown of the skill itself that you can’t see because you’re fighting in Fire or Air attunement).
And when you consider that the mechanics to have zero cooldown on Attunement swapping are already in place (ICDs of various skills and traits) it really makes no sense to keep this an issue. Hell, look at Speedy Kits as a perfect example. Elemental Attunement could work exactly the same way, just with Attunements in place of kits, and an attunement specific boon instead of just Swiftness.
Having zero cooldown attunements would also add build options by being able to utilize certain traits like Piercing Shards much more often.
Personally I would prefer to have to think about the ICD of certain boons and traits rather than having to juggle both Attunement and skill cooldowns.
Elementalists are by design supposed to use all four attunements. The proposal here, would make elementalists play more like other classes, which we have enough of.
Having to wait before you can switch back, is a mechanic that makes the elementalists interesting, and it requires some tactics.
No it doesn’t, it does literally nothing but reduce your options and kill what flexibility you’re supposed to have.
It encourages spamming cooldowns instead of saving them intelligently, it also means if you want to continue actually doing damage, then you can’t leave Fire attunement.
Let’s put a 10 second cooldown on kits for Engineer’s and see how they like it.
Instead of being able to swap into toolkit to pull someone then drop into Rifle to immobilize and burst combo them, then immediately back into toolkit because they need to shield block, let’s put that 10 second kit cooldown to c***block them so they can no longer play intelligently like that.
Having 0 second attunement wouldn’t be overpowered except for 2 small things.
1. Procs that happen when you swap attunement. (can be fixed by giving them 10 second cooldowns)
2. Attack cooldowns that each attunements have, you would probably be able to do more dmg by being able to swap constantly and rotate them, is that actually a bad thing to reward attunement swapping with more dmg? Not really.
Other than that though, it would mean we could actually swap attunements to use a cooldown when we actually need it, instead of “well I just swapped in to Air, might as well pop this 30/40 second cooldown because I won’t be able to for another 10-16 seconds anyway”.
Honestly, I never saw the point of a CD on attunement swapping.
Regardless of how fast you can switch attunements, the individual skills are going to be on CD. So if you used all your water skills, they’re going to be on the same CD whether attunement swapping has a 15 second timer, a 0 second timer or a bazillion minutes timer.
The only need for a CD in terms of balance is to limit “on weapon swap” mechanics, like Electric Discharge or Elemental Attunement. The thing is, there’s already a massive precedent for internal CDs on individual issues like this, such as weapon sigils or traits like Evasive Arcana.
It seems that the Attunement Swap mechanic really just adds artificial complexity in the form of more mental gymnastics by forcing Ele players to memorize rotations and multiple hidden and layered cooldowns (i.e. you’re waiting on Churning Earth, and have to contend with both the attunement CD and the cooldown of the skill itself that you can’t see because you’re fighting in Fire or Air attunement).
And when you consider that the mechanics to have zero cooldown on Attunement swapping are already in place (ICDs of various skills and traits) it really makes no sense to keep this an issue. Hell, look at Speedy Kits as a perfect example. Elemental Attunement could work exactly the same way, just with Attunements in place of kits, and an attunement specific boon instead of just Swiftness.
Having zero cooldown attunements would also add build options by being able to utilize certain traits like Piercing Shards much more often.
Personally I would prefer to have to think about the ICD of certain boons and traits rather than having to juggle both Attunement and skill cooldowns.
This exactly, I’m glad someone gets it.
It creates rotations, we shouldn’t HAVE rotations.
Elementalists are by design supposed to use all four attunements. The proposal here, would make elementalists play more like other classes, which we have enough of.
Having to wait before you can switch back, is a mechanic that makes the elementalists interesting, and it requires some tactics.
Elementalists should be balanced around this though. A problem with trait lines, is that they only buff one attunement (except arcana), and you will stay within one attunement a shorter amount of time, compare to having two weapons.
I don’t think Ele’s are designed to dance through all attunements as rapidly as possible. If this were true, the “bad traits” that apply only to one attunement wouldn’t exist.
It’s obvious that ANet intended both attunement keepers and attunement dancers to be possible. However, the very poor performance of single-attune traits when compared to attune-switching traits, plus the mechanics of attunement cooldowns, skews the balance completely towards attunement dancers.
Elementalists are by design supposed to use all four attunements. The proposal here, would make elementalists play more like other classes, which we have enough of.
Having to wait before you can switch back, is a mechanic that makes the elementalists interesting, and it requires some tactics.
Elementalists should be balanced around this though. A problem with trait lines, is that they only buff one attunement (except arcana), and you will stay within one attunement a shorter amount of time, compare to having two weapons.
I don’t think Ele’s are designed to dance through all attunements as rapidly as possible. If this were true, the “bad traits” that apply only to one attunement wouldn’t exist.
It’s obvious that ANet intended both attunement keepers and attunement dancers to be possible. However, the very poor performance of single-attune traits when compared to attune-switching traits, plus the mechanics of attunement cooldowns, skews the balance completely towards attunement dancers.
Oh wow, now that I think about it, maybe it was just poor implementation instead of bad design.
I think it’s possible they intended for people to be able to focus on 2 Elements or 1 Element + Arcana.
Then each Element would be a solid standalone weapon set like the other classes have provided you specced in it’s trait tree, that would actually warrant the long attunement cooldowns.
Then Arcana would be the trait tree for people that want to utilize all of the elements, it kinda makes sense now, and would be cool to be able to specialize in an element or two.
However the attunements as they as are definately not standalone, how do you expect to get anything done with staff Air/Water by themselves for example? They do no dmg.
I actually wouldn’t mind them fixing this and going for the implementation either, it could be interesting, though they would probably need to be something like Fresh Air for every single trait tree, maybe as the 25 minor point traits so it’s not optional or take up a major trait?
Specializing in 2 elements would essentially be the equivalent of having 2 solid weapon sets just like other classes, I’m really liking that idea now.
Elementalists are by design supposed to use all four attunements. The proposal here, would make elementalists play more like other classes, which we have enough of.
Having to wait before you can switch back, is a mechanic that makes the elementalists interesting, and it requires some tactics.
Elementalists should be balanced around this though. A problem with trait lines, is that they only buff one attunement (except arcana), and you will stay within one attunement a shorter amount of time, compare to having two weapons.
snip.
Specializing in 2 elements would essentially be the equivalent of having 2 solid weapon sets just like other classes, I’m really liking that idea now.
That would only be useful imo IF the different attunements actually behaved in their intented manner.
Fire AoE damage, water support, air high single target damage and earth defensive.
right now, except for water, each attunement is just a kittenty copy of each other. The attunements skills have to evolve past those basic skills but I doubt Arenanet will put in the effort to do that OR maybe (optimistic) they reason we dont get buffs is because they are working on fixing the elementalist (I only laughed 2 times as I typed that sentence).
This is an mmo forum, if someone isn’t whining chances are the game is dead.
I have a nice Norn Ele that tends to use just Fire Staff.
The cooldowns are okay, my main damage tends to come from #2 skill, which is fine.
But you wouldn’t believe how often everybody goes “But you can’t stay in 1 attunement, you’re killing your DPS/utility!”.
..If I want to play as pure Fire mage, shouldn’t I have that option and not be penalized for it?
I agree that they should make the individual trait lines a bit better for their specific element, with Arcana covering all the elements and focusing on attune dancing.
Giving Ele’s the choice of specializing in 2 elements and being more effective at those, and less in the others, or spread it out a bit, with Arcana making it easier to ‘dance’ your attunements and boosting the effectiveness of all 4 so you won’t fall off in a group.
Speaking of which, I don’t understand why they put that CD on the attunes.
As said, Engi’s don’t have it on their kits, and as far as I know, they’re not amazingly overpowered. I could work with a minor CD, like 1~2 seconds. Not the 10s we got now, which forces dancers into a rotation. And makes me go “Pff, I’m sticking with Fire, that’s where the damage is.”
..If I want to play as pure Fire mage, shouldn’t I have that option and not be penalized for it?
It’s called elementalist, and the class is designed as a master of all elements. If you had that option, then you could specc for a very simple playstyle. Elementalists are designed to have a complex playstyle, and they should rather look at how they can make the other classes more complex, rather than making elementalists more simple.
I played it similar to you in the beginning, and I didn’t like it at first. You’ll get the hang of it eventually, and you may also notice how this playstyle is more fun than the others.
You don’t see Engineers dealing with cooldowns for swapping kits and locking themselves out of dmg or important cooldowns like toolkit block/pull etc.
Engineer toolkits uses a utility skill, and they only have 5 weapon skills. I also find that toolkits typically contain some special case skills, that are mostly useless. I’ve got a lvl 80 engineer. Engineer is among the more fun characters, but the elementalist is more fun.
It seems that the Attunement Swap mechanic really just adds artificial complexity in the form of more mental gymnastics by forcing Ele players to memorize rotations and multiple hidden and layered cooldowns
Every build has some degree of rotation. Most other classes have 2 weapons, and has rotations based on switching between those. Elementalists tends to have 1-2 very potent skills in an attunement, and with free weapon swapping, they would have rotations that consisted of starting with these. Currently that doesn’t happen because then you’d end up with all attunements on cooldown, and that can be dangerous for a squishy mage.
With free attunement swapping they would have to nerf elementalists (particulary their powerful skills), and the ideal rotations would very likely mean switching attunement for every skill, doubling the number of button you’d have to press. Elementalists would loose their “punch”.
Elementalists have many skills, but they don’t require you to know lots of keybindings to play them effectively. It relies more on correctly swapping attunements, which is made harder because an elementalist must handle four weapon skill sets, instead of just two.
I like it and the bars could be called mana.
I like it and the bars could be called mana.
And Arcane function like energy storage kinda like a certain game called gw1 had, but it would be the reverse. Instead of adding more energy for each point, it would increase rate of recharge w/o making it mandatory.
But honestly, I don’t see that happening.
This is an mmo forum, if someone isn’t whining chances are the game is dead.
With free attunement swapping they would have to nerf elementalists (particulary their powerful skills), and the ideal rotations would very likely mean switching attunement for every skill, doubling the number of button you’d have to press. Elementalists would loose their “punch”.
This doesn’t really make sense. Take an S/D build. There is a specific sequence of skills to build up max might stacks, then shooting off your big nukes, typically Fire grab and/or CE. The rotation involves progressing through Fire, Air and Earth attunement. Once you go through it, all your skills are on cooldown, and many people run LH to switch to when the burst is blown.
The rotation of specific skills would not change if there was a zero cooldown on Attunement switching. It would take the same amount of time to cast, and the same amount of time to recharge. And it would do the same amount of damage, over the same timeframe.
The only advantage of having zero cooldown would be to be able to switch to an attunement to make use of a certain skill, such as a condi cleanse from Water or a move skill like RtL, without locking you out of your damage attunements. Which means making the Ele more naturally survivable without having to build full bunker, which in turn would allow Ele players to adopt a more aggressive playstyle without having to spec heavily into Vitality and Toughness, just like every other profession in the game. We see this in professions like Mesmers for example, who are designed with active defenses allowing them to build glassy and still be viable.
The hefty CD on attunements really is a detriment to the profession as a whole, and is completely arbitrary and IMHO useless. It simply does nothing for the class or the game in general.
I’d agree with some kind of mechanic that allowed for more intelligent usage of skills.
Right now what happens is just spamming all your skills before moving on to the next attunement, since “intelligently” using your skills requires prediction of your opponent far into the future, weighing the fact that you can have shocking aura on a 25s CD before swapping, or swapping, then not being be able to access that skill for a 6-15 second period anyways.
An engineer, in comparison, always has his toolbelt skills available and his kits are on an extremely short cooldown. The class feels very intuitive, since he simply switches to whatever set he needs at the moment without worry of being locked out of a set. On an off note, he also benefits from the fact that his cooldowns are fairly short. It’s rare for him to see a cooldown that’s over 30 seconds, while the elementalist is littered with 40+.
It would also be a very interesting mechanic if elementalists were allowed to specialize in certain attunements. Speccing into one attunement right now isn’t strong enough to offset the costs of doing so. I would say maybe Elementalists could receive a +33% damage increase for any specific attunement trait. It would be an extremely powerful trait, but you would be suitably punished if your opponent managed to force you out of that attunement. If you grabbed all of the +33% damage traits, you would have limited utility in exchange for consistent damage. I do think improving each individual attunement and perhaps tweaking cooldowns to be lower would help the class a lot.
Right now the class suffers from forced hybridization. Straight condition damage and straight direct damage are hindered by the fact switching attunements, which is crucial to the class, locks you out of your designated condition damage / direct damage set. It’s why long-cooldown attacks with powerful effects are preferred, since you’ll be locked out of the attunement anyways. As an example, builds which revolve around powerful short cooldown attacks such as in the Glass S/D build usually aren’t viable. That was only recently made viable by the Fresh Air change.
Also, on a personal note, I’d like it if I didn’t see people claiming things like “X isn’t the way the class was intended to be played.” Until you hear word from the developers themselves (and not just cherry-picked quotes from a year ago) it’s extremely annoying to hear this kind of thing. This is all speculation and suggestion anyways.
tl;dr would like to see any kind of buffs, QoL or otherwise to the class. Right now it’s too squishy, with too many situational skills, with cooldowns that feel slightly too long, along with being a very skill-spammy class. Attunement recharge in its current incarnation encourages either spamming your skills then moving onto another attunement, or a hefty investment into the arcana traitline. In fact, to be safe, most elementalists do both.
(edited by Aegael.6938)
Engineer toolkits uses a utility skill, and they only have 5 weapon skills. I also find that toolkits typically contain some special case skills, that are mostly useless. I’ve got a lvl 80 engineer. Engineer is among the more fun characters, but the elementalist is more fun.
It seems that the Attunement Swap mechanic really just adds artificial complexity in the form of more mental gymnastics by forcing Ele players to memorize rotations and multiple hidden and layered cooldowns
Every build has some degree of rotation. Most other classes have 2 weapons, and has rotations based on switching between those. Elementalists tends to have 1-2 very potent skills in an attunement, and with free weapon swapping, they would have rotations that consisted of starting with these. Currently that doesn’t happen because then you’d end up with all attunements on cooldown, and that can be dangerous for a squishy mage.
With free attunement swapping they would have to nerf elementalists (particulary their powerful skills), and the ideal rotations would very likely mean switching attunement for every skill, doubling the number of button you’d have to press. Elementalists would loose their “punch”.
Elementalists have many skills, but they don’t require you to know lots of keybindings to play them effectively. It relies more on correctly swapping attunements, which is made harder because an elementalist must handle four weapon skill sets, instead of just two.
Well first, kits in utility slots are made up for by tool bar skills which are essentially your utility skills.
Second, those “very potent” skills in attunements are balanced by having larger than normal cooldowns.
And yes other classes have rotations too, for normal DMG abilities, Elementalists essentially have to create a rotation out of their long cooldown situational abilities because they’ll be locked out of them when they actually need to use them, rotations for lower cooldown dmg abilities is fine…
Third, you’re down playing Engy toolkits so hard lol, they’ve been buffed so much, especially toolkit, every ability is strong and has a use.
Let me redirect you to Elementalist’s Focus fire skills, or Focus #4 water skill, or perhaps the 2 second single target knockdown in air that’s balanced with a 50 second cooldown on a weapon skill (attunement cooldowns don’t balance this at all).
Or how about the fact that Staff Ele basically loses more than 50% of their dmg when they lock themselves out of Fire attunement, because Water does NO dmg, the auto is currently useless because the heal radius is practically microscopic, and staff Air attacks are pathetic.
The best way to describe the current Elementalist with Attunements : “Using situational skills when you don’t need them because you’ll rarely have access to them when you do.”
There’s 2 ways they could go with this :
1.) Reinforce the 4 Attunement swap playstyle, reduce or even remove attunement cooldowns and balance the procs accordingly. The best way to play Ele is now to swap constantly and rotate dmg abilities for the most dmg output and actually have access to important utilities when you actually need them, playstyle is no longer terribly clunky and Ele might have better survivability.
This would also require a change to the current bonus Arcana Trait line gives to attunement cooldowns, I made a suggestion for it and reworking Attunement Lingering Bonuses here : https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/What-I-d-Change-Staff-and-Arcana/first#post2830288
2.) Go with the design of focusing on Trait Trees to determine playstyle. Arcana trait line reducing attunement cooldowns drastically (to like 5 seconds or so), and giving benefits for using all 4 elements. While the other trait lines help you specialize in each Element and make those Attunements solid standalone weapon sets.
With option #2 this would mean you could even go Water focused and your water attunement is actually a good standalone weapon set, it has dmg, utility etc, but with more emphasis on Support, think Mesmer or Guardian Staff.
Then you could either spec into making 2 Element Attunements solid, with the other 2 adding a little extra (which would serve as our extra abilities as a class mechanic) but would keep the ludicrous attunement cooldowns (16-20 seconds), with 25 minor point trait in each trait tree giving you a Fresh Air equivalent.
Or you could specialize in 1 element as well as Arcana and have 3 ok attunements and 1 solid one and swap constantly.
I’m up for either one, although option 1 sounds like a ton less work, aside from redoing traits to be more versatile for every attunement.
(edited by Knote.2904)
Putting everything aside, I also think any change in this game that lowers cooldowns is a good one.
Personally I would much prefer if autoattacks did far less, and cooldowns reduced across the board so that people need to be more active.