Guild Wars 2

Looking at the other professions I play the most (thief guard war) I see many more options.

Thief builds are mainly defined by weapon set and then somewhat by whether they take shadow arts or not (deadly/trickery/acro don’t change a whole lot in how a build plays). Even being locked into a few utilities they still have a variety of play.

Guard builds are overwhelmingly characterized by what grandmaster trait they use (AH, meditations, RHS) and to a lesser extent their amulet—weapons are chosen entirely based on utility.

Warrior builds are sort of a mix(traits mainly just for increasing offense or defense passively) but their weapons have definite identity as to what they accomplish

What is ele lacking here? Are their weapons too samey(do they need another?), are their traits not able to be built around like guard(cept fresh air)? Is their damage so poor that they are forced to one end of the spectrum or they other (either zerk to out DPS healing or bunker and 0 DPS)?

In PvE, there is a meta build for every class. War is axe + GS. Mes is sw/f + OH sw. Guard is sw/f. Thief is d/d. Ranger is sw/horn. Engi is grenades. And Ele is scepter LH. It’s just how PvE works. The goal is to maximize group dmg, so there will always be one single optimal build that does that. Based on the dungeon, that optimal build may change (eg. redoing mes traits for maximum reflect dmg in Arah), but there will still always be one single optimal build.

In PvP/WvW, each class has more than one option. Ele is the same. There is some extent of build diversity in PvP and WvW for every class. I don’t see your point.

Anierna.6918:

In PvE, there is a meta build for every class. War is axe + GS. Mes is sw/f + OH sw. Guard is sw/f. Thief is d/d. Ranger is sw/horn. Engi is grenades. And Ele is scepter LH. It’s just how PvE works. The goal is to maximize group dmg, so there will always be one single optimal build that does that. Based on the dungeon, that optimal build may change (eg. redoing mes traits for maximum reflect dmg in Arah), but there will still always be one single optimal build.

In PvP/WvW, each class has more than one option. Ele is the same. There is some extent of build diversity in PvP and WvW for every class. I don’t see your point.

Thief PvE meta is S/P, and has been for over a year (since fractals came out). Just thought I’d correct you there.

Viking Jorun.5413:

Thief PvE meta is S/P, and has been for over a year (since fractals came out). Just thought I’d correct you there.

Even for single-target? -.^ Thought it was dagger 5 > backstab > 1x AA chain > repeat; that’s maximum backstabs since you restealth almost exactly as soon as Revealed disapears. It’s not sustainable for more than about 10 secs if you’re in 25/30/0/0/15, but with a proper group, that’s all you need. If the fight’s gonna last longer than that, you go 30/30/10/0/0 for Infusion of Shadow, which makes that rotation nearly infinitely sustainable.

Of course, you still have sw/p for trash, but on single-target, I’m pretty sure pistol whip is lower DPS than that backstab rotation. Not 100% sure (maybe 95%), but I can test if you like (although someone probably already has). The other thing about pistol whip is that spamming it is even less sustainable than backstabs in 25/30/0/0/15.

EDIT: Took me a moment to realize that you must be trolling. It’s absurd that you’d think s/p was higher DPS than d/d on single-target. I really am tired >.<

Anierna.6918:

Viking Jorun.5413:

Thief PvE meta is S/P, and has been for over a year (since fractals came out). Just thought I’d correct you there.

Even for single-target? -.^ Thought it was dagger 5 > backstab > 1x AA chain > repeat; that’s maximum backstabs since you restealth almost exactly as soon as Revealed disapears. It’s not sustainable for more than about 10 secs if you’re in 25/30/0/0/15, but with a proper group, that’s all you need. If the fight’s gonna last longer than that, you go 30/30/10/0/0 for Infusion of Shadow, which makes that rotation nearly infinitely sustainable.

Of course, you still have sw/p for trash, but on single-target, I’m pretty sure pistol whip is lower DPS than that backstab rotation. Not 100% sure (maybe 95%), but I can test if you like (although someone probably already has). The other thing about pistol whip is that spamming it is even less sustainable than backstabs in 25/30/0/0/15.

EDIT: Took me a moment to realize that you must be trolling. It’s absurd that you’d think s/p was higher DPS than d/d on single-target. I really am tired >.<

I’m not talking about single-targets. Most of PvE is designed around multiple enemies, and taking dagger mainhand for PvE is not only selfish, but severely gimps your team’s overall DPS in dungeons. That being said, most PvE thieves run S/P + D/D for the utility of both. I failed to mention that in my OP.

Viking Jorun.5413:

I’m not talking about single-targets. Most of PvE is designed around multiple enemies, and taking dagger mainhand for PvE is not only selfish, but severely gimps your team’s overall DPS in dungeons. That being said, most PvE thieves run S/P + D/D for the utility of both. I failed to mention that in my OP.

She spoke of D/D obviously referring to bosses or other single target situations. It is therefore implied that trash would be S/P or short bow depending on the situation; this is obvious since they are the two multi-target candidates.

You declared D/D is wrong, and that S/P is better. Given the context, you implied that S/D is superior for single target. You also didn’t clarify that it would be for trash, and D/D is popular for single.

Basically in the desire to prove someone wrong, you’ve both managed to disagree while having the same opinion. It’s quite funny reading from the outside perspective lol. Anyway, the thread is regarding ele…

@OP Ele has just as much diversity as the other classes you mentioned. You can go glass, support, tanky, or mid-way getting a good balance for damage and survival while providing some group might and a little healing. This is why ele was often referred to as the best class to pug with.

ens.9854:

Looking at the other professions I play the most (thief guard war) I see many more options.

Thief builds are mainly defined by weapon set and then somewhat by whether they take shadow arts or not (deadly/trickery/acro don’t change a whole lot in how a build plays). Even being locked into a few utilities they still have a variety of play.

Guard builds are overwhelmingly characterized by what grandmaster trait they use (AH, meditations, RHS) and to a lesser extent their amulet—weapons are chosen entirely based on utility.

Warrior builds are sort of a mix(traits mainly just for increasing offense or defense passively) but their weapons have definite identity as to what they accomplish

What is ele lacking here? Are their weapons too samey(do they need another?), are their traits not able to be built around like guard(cept fresh air)? Is their damage so poor that they are forced to one end of the spectrum or they other (either zerk to out DPS healing or bunker and 0 DPS)?

You didn’t specify what area of the game. It kind of feels like you have taken some opinions from others and just came to ask the questions.

If you are referring to s/tPvP there are 5 roles you take the best choice to fill that role if you can’t have the best in that role you take the next best. So any role that the ele can fill currently in s/tPvP another class does better. This isn’t specifically pointed at ele because it can happen to every class and has at some point in the games cycle. Right now for serious s/tPvP play you are either S/x burst or staff glass or bunker.

This is how it is in PvE for all classes meta builds for PvE content for optimal efficient runs alongside like minded individuals. So you run those builds or you can group with people that don’t care and run what you like.

WvW you run whatever you want BUT if you want something effective for that specific role then you play that build. Roamers is D/D, S/D, S/F with different trait setups. Small groups any of those work and zerging I would say S/x and Staff would be my picks.

The only thing that is lacking for build diversity is really a need to spec heavy fire outside of PvE builds and glass staff in PvP environments. In PvP unless you are building a gimmick as a S/D, S/F, or D/D you really have to reason to go into fire or to a greater extent I would say you can’t afford to go into fire with those sets.

There is diversity on the elementalist it just depends on what you are doing and how you want to do it.

I actually find the meta PvE builds for ele to be surprisingly diverse. Staff, scepter+focus/dagger, and dagger + focus all have very effective DPS and support roles in teams. There are basically three choices, all with different playstyles, compared to most classes which have a single meta build, or very small variations of a single build (see: warrior with axe, mesmer with phantasms, guardian with sword/focus, etc.).

maxinion.8396:

I actually find the meta PvE builds for ele to be surprisingly diverse. Staff, scepter+focus/dagger, and dagger + focus all have very effective DPS and support roles in teams.

Agreed.

Build diversity in both PvP and PvE is pretty good actually.

It’s just that the class as a whole suffers a list of foundational weaknesses (e.g. core mechanics).

Build diversity is good. The problem is that our builds aren’t “pick up and play.” Due to the complexity of our core mechanics (attunement swaps, long cooldowns, 4 skill sets) and low hp/armor, you need at least a week to learn your build before you can become effective with it. Many players, especially newbies to the Ele class, will need a month or more to learn a build, and long before then they would have died so many times as to write off the build (or class as a whole) as broken.

Take me, I’ve been playing Ele for 4 months and I can go Glass Staff anywhere in game (pvp, wvw, living world, dungeons, fractals) and I take names wherever I go, but give me D/D and I die every other encounter.

I’d have to say Mochann’s assessment is very accurate. Though, I disagree that it takes more than a month+ to learn a build. All it really takes is a few days spending some time in the Mists just practicing your rotation.

That’s what I think the strength of the Ele profession is. It isn’t something that you can pick up and learn how to easily play for the most part. ((Fire Staff is…and is a very viable spec.)) It also means buffs are much slower to occur because they have to be tested on a much more complex playing field…so Ele’s generally have a smaller drawing to them.

Despite having the four attunements, we really do have the least amount of weapon variety…and the lack of weapon swap during combat outside of conjures add to that. Engies get kits…which is much more similar to a weapon swap + a utility with the toolbelt.

I think just by design Eles will lack the build variety of other professions…but make up for that by having more variety in combat.

I’ve also noticed there has been a lot more…push…from Ele subforum members to only play ze optimal builds und you should only play…ze optimal builds! So, we’re in sort of a build drought right now. Hopefully people will remember that playing fun viable builds is just as helpful to a group as playing ze optimal build!

I hate that we have so few weapon choices with no weapon swap, that’s another limiting factor. Every other class has like eight weapons to choose from, we have four.

I still think that Anet made a mistake with the overall design philosophy of GW2. Tying all skills so a weapon is what makes the builds more limited, and having traits doesn’t really offset it. I much prefer being able to mix and match skills to my toolbar as I see fit, so I can really build a specialized build to do something specific that I want to do.

I know why Anet did it, to make the game easier to pick up and play especially for the non hardcore gaming crowd, but very often I find myself wishing Anet had gone back to even just the GW1 system. It would really open up builds.

I actually prefer skills being tied to weapons. It makes skills easier to balance and gives the weapons some identity. And animations easier to program…which saves an absolute TON of resources.

Honestly, I prefer the GW2 style of fewer but better balanced builds over the GW1 style of nearly infinite builds…but only a select few work, and even fewer are viable. Yes, there are some builds that flat out don’t work in GW2…but they are significantly fewer. And most of the time, you can get those builds to work if you tweak a few traits and pieces of gear.

That said…I think the main point of Diversity from Ele should come from traits…and Anet knows that. However, balancing isn’t as easy as people think when they want to add new traits. Yes there are obvious improvements that could be made, but we’re only basing that on past knowledge and have no clue what Anet is planning.

Fresh Air is a very good example of a trait that completely changes your playstyle. It allows you to in a way focus on being an Air Magic based Elementalist…but you have to swap to other attunements to get the full benefit. I think we’ll be starting to see more traits that begin to bridge the gaps of the attunements. They won’t be all at once and probably spread out over the year.

Just my two copper anyway…

When I read the headline my first thought was our heavy dependence on Cantrips to use on competitive builds (WvW/PvP). That’s where stun breakers & survival tools are – not really in Signets & Glyphs.
My second thought goes to emphasis on builds that go heavy into Water & Arcana.

PVP:

- Only S/D and D/D are viable options
- All utilities besides cantrips suck and don’t have any good traits either
- Always need 20 arcane for elemental attunement
- only 10k health with most amulets if not using water
- besides air and arcane (and to a lesser extend water after all the nerfs) all grandmaster traits aren’t worth spending 30 points in their trees for
- no viable untraited active defense from weapon skills, therefore always have to spend utility slots and trait points for defensive purposes → always use water and arcane because they give the best defenses.

The class mechanic is the issue. For most classes, the mechanic is an additional ability. For elementalists, the mechanic is primarily a limit on their other abilities in the form of an additional cooldown to manage. Even after the 12/10 patch, speccing to reduce that cooldown remains critical to most builds.

Maybe it’s just me but the difference between dagger and scepter feels nothing like the difference between guardians scepter/sword/mace or warriors sword/axe/mace which have real identity. If anything the scepter and dagger should have an even more extreme difference because they are the only two options for 1 handers.

They are both just damage based with the exception of shocking aura. Dagger used to feel a bit different when you could heal and attack simultaneously but that’s been nerfed now too