Guild Wars 2

5. Elementalists do better speccing for survivability than damage. Who’da thunk it, eh? Elementalists make great bunker builds because of the many ways in which we can heal ourselves. At the same time, our damage specs are sorely lacking in cannon to make up for the huge amounts of glass they are.

6. Dagger/Dagger is currently our best weapon loadout. Before the EA nerf, Staff and D/D were at least on equal footing, but that’s no longer the case. Scepter isn’t terrible, but it could use sprucing up in a few places, and Focus is used least of all.

7. Many of our major traits, especially the ones that enhance a specific attunement, aren’t very good. You’ll find that the traits that show up most often in builds are the ones that work across attunements. The ones that enhance a specific attunement rarely ever show up at all. The reasoning behind this is because, if we’re supposed to be switching attunements often, then what good is a trait that only works with one attunement? Certainly not as good as a trait that works with all attunements, that’s for sure.

8. Shatterstone (Water Scepter #2) sucks and we’re not sure why it was nerfed for release. Seriously, what? It was bad during beta back when its cooldown and cast time were one second. Then you doubled both of those? Screw that. The thing takes so long to explode that it really only hits stationary targets. The thing takes so long to cast that our time is better spent doing anything else. If the skill suddenly vanished, replaced by nothing, then nobody would care because nobody uses it. Having it is already a lot like not having a skill at all.

9. Conjures are sub-par. The main problem with conjures is this: We give up 21 skills (including the utility slot) in order to gain access to 5. Those 5 had better be pretty amazing in order to make up for the loss of all our other skills, offering to do things our profession could never do otherwise. That’s not the case, though. Conjures need to go in one of two directions: 1. Something you can whip out, fire off a few skills and then drop and be satisfied. Frost Bow is currently at this point (with its #4 and 5), though we wouldn’t argue with a bit more zazz. 2. Something worthy of replacing all our other skills, something that completely transforms us and what role we take in battle.

10. We’d appreciate better Elite skills. Glyph of Elementals is nice, but that’s the only one I can say that about. Tornado is very much like Shatterstone in that using it in any situation is sub-optimal because our time is better spent doing other things. It is a hindrance, a burden that we would not willingly place upon ourselves. Fiery Greatsword is better than Tornado, but it suffers the same problem as all the conjures.

So anyways, those are the ones I could think of at the time. Feel free to add more or voice any disagreements with what I wrote. I’ve done quite a bit of reading on these forums, though, so I think that these 10 statements pretty accurately reflect our collective opinion on various elementalist issues.

This is something I enjoyed reading and I can only disagree with the arcana trait line bit.
Other than that. good read sir

Outstanding. You’re 10-for-10 in my opinion. I’d add:

*11. Bugs and lack of communication about bugs are demoralizing. *

Personally, they’re why I stopped playing the game altogether. Will the Dragon’s Tooth bug be fixed in a near-term patch? In that case, I should have kept my rotation and just made do with 6 fewer stacks of Might for a while. Or would it persist indefinitely? In that case, I needed to learn D/D. For me, that was the final straw in deciding I didn’t care enough to keep building my skill at the game.

For most people posting here, that extreme reaction would not be shared; still, I think broad consensus holds that bugs — together with the appalling lack of communication about bugs — are pretty bad.

2. Great idea on making elemental attunement baseline. Perhaps it could only work for self boons though and the actual elemental attunement trait would make them aoe boons. That way they could just rework the current trait instead of replacing it. If necessary we could take a small nerf on the 5 second protection duration to 3 seconds to compensate for how much of a buff this is.

I also feel as though at least 15 points in arcana is mandatory for the attunement recharge rate. This could be fixed by making base attunement recharge rate 12 seconds and each 10 points into arcana reduces that by 1 second.

5. The glass without the cannon mentality is a misconception. We may be too glassy to justify the amount of damage we have, but when specced for it we pump out massive aoe damage.

7. The most obvious solution is to make all + % damage traits work with lingering elementals. This would give us a much needed damage boost to justify how glassy we are. Pyromancer’s puissance should also work with this.

Cooldown reduction traits reduce cooldowns casted WHILE in X attunement(as an attunement bonus). This would mean that if you trait for reduce cooldowns by 20% while in air attunement, you could switch to fire attunement and have 5 seconds from lingering elements to still benefit from the cooldown reduction on all spells cast in that 5 second window.

Also fire grab should just be a base 35 second cooldown.

Possibly change lingering elements so that your past element is always lingering but only allow one lingering element at a time.

Then make lingering elements a 5 point trait by swapping it with arcane fury so this doesn’t further force people into the arcana traitline.

Pretty much agree with all of the OP’s points. If D/D ever gets severely nerfed that’s probably game over for me. I just can’t get into other classes because of how boring they seem compared to ele.

/quote:
11. Bugs and lack of communication about bugs are demoralizing. /end quote.

10: Conjure Fire Greatsword does some wicked damage, but we take a severe hit to survivability when/if we use it.
12: We would like an out of combat weapon swap ability
13: Return Attunement cooldowns to 9 seconds, and add a different bonus to Arcane
13 Continued: Maybe make a Lingering Duration % Bonus to increase linger attunements effect?

/agree

yeah i pretty much agree with everything said here.

—11. Bugs and lack of communication about bugs are demoralizing. —

I also agree with this. I understand bug fixes can take a lot of time to get done, especially if you want it done properly. But Anets ability to communicate clearly about what is happening is very poor. In comparison to other MMOs like WoW, anyway.

Honestly, a “we are aware of the problem, and we are trying to fix it” is probably all that needs to be said half the time. But we really get minimal understanding of what the Dev’s are thinking or doing. Are they happy with elementalists the way they are? Maybe, who would know?

Anet should consider hiring someone “who can cast the vision” and lets us come along for the ride. As well as let us have our say along the way. I find the lack of clear and concise communication frustrating.

Just my opinion.

I know that your list is meant to compile a general consensus… which is the only reason I’m replying here. You have good points but some I just disagree with and if we truly want to see a general consensus all interested parties should reply in order to clearly reflect whether you’ve done a good job or missed the mark on any. That said…

1. I agree.
2. Disagree – It’s got the weakest traits of the lot imo though I understand the ‘mandatory’ feeling behind it.
3. Couldn’t agree more.
4. I’ve not even unlocked the weapon skills for D/D or S/F and I’m 80 and loving it, so unless this is sPvP specific I disagree again.
5. Yeah no… if someone wants to see my build I can link the thread where I asked for feedback. No one said it sucked then – just that it was glassy as hell. I kill stuff plenty fast.
6. See my reply to #4.
7. Room for improvement as there always will be – but can’t say I stand in agreance with this either.
8. Never noticed the Nerf since I don’t use the skill so I’m N/A on this one.
9. Understand the point but never used conjures in my build as they’re too weak imo.
10. Can understand the desire for more options, but love the glyph so unless something better is introduced I’ll prolly stick with it.

and as for the 11. Worst problem facing the Ele profession at the moment. Really wish Anet was doing a better job on this.

Good post, TC. I sincerely hope that a dev reads this.

7. Many of our major traits, especially the ones that enhance a specific attunement, aren’t very good. You’ll find that the traits that show up most often in builds are the ones that work across attunements. The ones that enhance a specific attunement rarely ever show up at all. The reasoning behind this is because, if we’re supposed to be switching attunements often, then what good is a trait that only works with one attunement? Certainly not as good as a trait that works with all attunements, that’s for sure.

To make these traits worth it you need to spec 15 into Arcana for lingering elements. Traits like Piercing Shards are actually good now that ANet has made them work. In fact, I’d say the most practical spike build for Eles involves something along the lines of 25 Air, 25 Water and 20 arcana D/D with Piercing Shards and this is already very similar to what people are already using. The pigeon hole gets deeper and deeper.

TwoBit.5903:

To make these traits worth it you need to spec 15 into Arcana for lingering elements. Traits like Piercing Shards are actually good now that ANet has made them work. In fact, I’d say the most practical spike build for Eles involves something along the lines of 25 Air, 25 Water and 20 arcana D/D with Piercing Shards and this is already very similar to what people are already using. The pigeon hole gets deeper and deeper.

Lingering elements currently only works with adept minor traits (except earth which is bugged).

Cosmic Teapot.9162:

TwoBit.5903:

To make these traits worth it you need to spec 15 into Arcana for lingering elements. Traits like Piercing Shards are actually good now that ANet has made them work. In fact, I’d say the most practical spike build for Eles involves something along the lines of 25 Air, 25 Water and 20 arcana D/D with Piercing Shards and this is already very similar to what people are already using. The pigeon hole gets deeper and deeper.

Lingering elements currently only works with adept minor traits (except earth which is bugged).

That’s strange. I believe I’ve gotten it to work with Piercing Shards. My Burning Speed + Ring of Fire were certainly hitting harder in hotjoin. Back to the test dummies!

Edit: You were right about lingering elements not affecting piercing shards, but if you swap into water while channeling skills, you’ll get the 20% bonus assuming the target has at least 1 stack of vulnerable.

With 0/25/0/25/20 and no jewels I was hitting the light golem for roughly 1300 and the medium golem for 1100 with Churning Earth without attuning to water. With 1 stack of vulnerable and attuneing to water I was hitting the light for 1600 and the medium for 1300. Not bad at all.

Agree with most of the list, except for #10. I love Tornado for WvWvW, it’s an absolute game changer in a large zerg battle. It doubles your vitality, gives you a ton of spammable bolt finishers and you’re by default a whirl finisher, and you severely disrupt large groups with the massive amounts of Point Blank knockback, as well as with casting of skill 3.

When pushing out from a sieged keep or tower, a Tornado Elementalist or two can soak up a ton of damage, prevent enemies from retreating due to Point Blank launches, and lower incoming DPS through mass interrupts/blinds.

In any other situation, I do agree that Tornado is severely lacking. If I was running in a small skirmish group taking supply camps, I’d probably stick with the Glyph. However, in WvWvW zergfests, it’s an extremely useful and satisfying skill to push back a large zerg.

Main – ele. Weapon of choice – staff. I unlocked all of the weapon abilities but still prefer Staff over all others. I agree arcane is pretty good and with staff it can make real havoc to large amount of enemies. I have my video here but DO KNOW I DON’T HAVE BEST ARMOR YET.

(sorry for poor quality)

I made mistake and put 20 points into air. For this much better is to have those 20 into Earth. A side from that, 30 in fire and 20 in Arcane are great but until I acquire entire rampager set (especially the bling) I will keep those 20 in air.

Also, do know that some people are raging how ele is too easy and should have mana resource (I disagree).

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Why-no-mana/page/2#post888186

As for scepter look the video of this guy (he is awesome)

1. If you’re not attunement swapping, you’re doing it wrong. You should be attunement swapping during a fight so as to get the most out of your elementalist. Elementalists were balanced around attunement-swapping, so anyone who’s not doing it is hobbling themselves. This leads us to a few of the next ones, including…

FALSE. Elementalists are NOT balanced around attunement-swapping. The community in majority wants it to be this way but it is NOT. How to tell?
- The arcane trait line reduces our attune swap cd. If it were true that we are supposed to swap as much as possible, then the cd reduction should be baseline.
- Trait lines cater to specific elements (more damage in fire/wind etc)
- Only 1 trait line builds around the idea of constant attune swap

For the statement “elementalists are balanced around attunement-swap” to be true, all traits must cater to this idea.

Again, it’s something we want. It’s something we’ve fooled ourselves into believing is true. Right now, it just isn’t.

Agree with most sentiments of the OP.

I have a few disagreements but it is basically what I would change about the elementalist if I could.

Two things to add:

1. Traits need a fall damage reduction trait.
2. We need a 10 point underwater elite skill.

Agreed on everything OP.

on the scepter issue: once all those scepter moves actually WORK as blast finishers we should be in good shape on making scepter viable.

on the staff issue: evasive arcana really should not have been nerfed.

on the dagger issue: STOP SAYING IT SO LOUD, THEYLL NERF THE LAST GOOD BUILDS WE HAVE

Seetoo.9316:

1. If you’re not attunement swapping, you’re doing it wrong. You should be attunement swapping during a fight so as to get the most out of your elementalist. Elementalists were balanced around attunement-swapping, so anyone who’s not doing it is hobbling themselves. This leads us to a few of the next ones, including…

FALSE. Elementalists are NOT balanced around attunement-swapping. The community in majority wants it to be this way but it is NOT. How to tell?
- The arcane trait line reduces our attune swap cd. If it were true that we are supposed to swap as much as possible, then the cd reduction should be baseline.
- Trait lines cater to specific elements (more damage in fire/wind etc)
- Only 1 trait line builds around the idea of constant attune swap

For the statement “elementalists are balanced around attunement-swap” to be true, all traits must cater to this idea.

Again, it’s something we want. It’s something we’ve fooled ourselves into believing is true. Right now, it just isn’t.

Yup because to be an amazing Ele you need to stay in one attunement. Thats why all the other attunements are locked when you spec into one.
/sarcasm

It’s one thing to think it is. It’s another for it to actually be designed that way. We HAVE to swap, that’s a given. That’s the norm majority accept. We’re just not designed to do it.

Curring.9752:

Seetoo.9316:

1. If you’re not attunement swapping, you’re doing it wrong. You should be attunement swapping during a fight so as to get the most out of your elementalist. Elementalists were balanced around attunement-swapping, so anyone who’s not doing it is hobbling themselves. This leads us to a few of the next ones, including…

FALSE. Elementalists are NOT balanced around attunement-swapping. The community in majority wants it to be this way but it is NOT. How to tell?
- The arcane trait line reduces our attune swap cd. If it were true that we are supposed to swap as much as possible, then the cd reduction should be baseline.
- Trait lines cater to specific elements (more damage in fire/wind etc)
- Only 1 trait line builds around the idea of constant attune swap

For the statement “elementalists are balanced around attunement-swap” to be true, all traits must cater to this idea.

Again, it’s something we want. It’s something we’ve fooled ourselves into believing is true. Right now, it just isn’t.

Yup because to be an amazing Ele you need to stay in one attunement. Thats why all the other attunements are locked when you spec into one.
/sarcasm

As I read it… he is not saing that if u stay in asingle attunement u will work the right way… but simply that if we really were tought to work around attunement swapping all the time than there are great flaw in the trait design… he simply is stating that the elementalist trait line is not how it should be if we were balanced around the swapping (there should not be that much need to reduce the swap cd nor there should be that much trait that only work in asingle element…)

so… wile it’ s true that we NEED to switch element in order to be a decent class… our trait line does’nt seem to be INTEDNED for that…

It’s the kind sticky situation they’ve put us in by giving us access to twenty weapon skills at a time, with the ability to cycle through them. If they make our individual skills as powerful as other classes, we would have insane burst capabilities with stance dancing. On the other hand, we’ve been balanced such that a bunch of our skills are so situational or weak that they’re often used to little or no effect.

Comaetilico.3645:

Curring.9752:

Seetoo.9316:

1. If you’re not attunement swapping, you’re doing it wrong. You should be attunement swapping during a fight so as to get the most out of your elementalist. Elementalists were balanced around attunement-swapping, so anyone who’s not doing it is hobbling themselves. This leads us to a few of the next ones, including…

FALSE. Elementalists are NOT balanced around attunement-swapping. The community in majority wants it to be this way but it is NOT. How to tell?
- The arcane trait line reduces our attune swap cd. If it were true that we are supposed to swap as much as possible, then the cd reduction should be baseline.
- Trait lines cater to specific elements (more damage in fire/wind etc)
- Only 1 trait line builds around the idea of constant attune swap

For the statement “elementalists are balanced around attunement-swap” to be true, all traits must cater to this idea.

Again, it’s something we want. It’s something we’ve fooled ourselves into believing is true. Right now, it just isn’t.

Yup because to be an amazing Ele you need to stay in one attunement. Thats why all the other attunements are locked when you spec into one.
/sarcasm

As I read it… he is not saing that if u stay in asingle attunement u will work the right way… but simply that if we really were tought to work around attunement swapping all the time than there are great flaw in the trait design… he simply is stating that the elementalist trait line is not how it should be if we were balanced around the swapping (there should not be that much need to reduce the swap cd nor there should be that much trait that only work in asingle element…)

so… wile it’ s true that we NEED to switch element in order to be a decent class… our trait line does’nt seem to be INTEDNED for that…

It was a joke, reinforcing what he said, he is right – if I read him correctly.
Our traits cater to one element while being in that element (Unless we get lingering elements) so while our core mechanic is attune swapping our traits do not reflect this instead they favor traits that in reality you will only get 1/4 use out of them. It is very counter productive and I’ve been saying this for a long time.

I disagree with most of these points.

1. For the most part, yes, that’s true. However, I’ve seen some Ele’s that stay in Fire and just burn things and that’s all they do and it works. If they get into a dangerous situation, they either run or die, but isn’t that always the case?

2.Disagree completely. I feel no need to spec into Arcana at all; not for cooldown reduction, not for shiny boons, not for dodge finishers.

3.Pretty much agree.

4. Disagree; We have plenty of builds, and they all work; some just can’t handle being “different”.

5.Again, Disagree. Specced in any direction an Ele will work; they’re fluid and versatile, one of (if not the most) the most versatile classes in the game.

6.Disagree. Best in what way? Provide some proof or reasoning, otherwise, all you could be meaning is that D/D is the best build for close-combat and movement, which is true.

7.Agree… Until you meet those Attunement-specific Ele’s (and believe me, they’re out there)

8.Um… Not sure. I don’t play Scepter often, so this don’t affect me very much.

9.I agree partially with this, except, you CAN drop the weapon, and it always spawns an extra for any friends that might need/want to use it. So it has its uses.

10.Agree.

Seetoo.9316:

1. If you’re not attunement swapping, you’re doing it wrong. You should be attunement swapping during a fight so as to get the most out of your elementalist. Elementalists were balanced around attunement-swapping, so anyone who’s not doing it is hobbling themselves. This leads us to a few of the next ones, including…

FALSE. Elementalists are NOT balanced around attunement-swapping. The community in majority wants it to be this way but it is NOT. How to tell?
- The arcane trait line reduces our attune swap cd. If it were true that we are supposed to swap as much as possible, then the cd reduction should be baseline.
- Trait lines cater to specific elements (more damage in fire/wind etc)
- Only 1 trait line builds around the idea of constant attune swap

For the statement “elementalists are balanced around attunement-swap” to be true, all traits must cater to this idea.

Again, it’s something we want. It’s something we’ve fooled ourselves into believing is true. Right now, it just isn’t.

Wrong. The CD reduction was suppose to be a “perk”. However it’s basically a necessity. There’s a difference.

If ele’s were not based around attunement swapping they would have created the class just like the others. You spec into an element, then choose between two weapons to swap between. This is not the case.

MethodicMockingbird.6520:

I disagree with most of these points.

1. For the most part, yes, that’s true. However, I’ve seen some Ele’s that stay in Fire and just burn things and that’s all they do and it works. If they get into a dangerous situation, they either run or die, but isn’t that always the case?

2.Disagree completely. I feel no need to spec into Arcana at all; not for cooldown reduction, not for shiny boons, not for dodge finishers.

3.Pretty much agree.

4. Disagree; We have plenty of builds, and they all work; some just can’t handle being “different”.

5.Again, Disagree. Specced in any direction an Ele will work; they’re fluid and versatile, one of (if not the most) the most versatile classes in the game.

6.Disagree. Best in what way? Provide some proof or reasoning, otherwise, all you could be meaning is that D/D is the best build for close-combat and movement, which is true.

7.Agree… Until you meet those Attunement-specific Ele’s (and believe me, they’re out there)

8.Um… Not sure. I don’t play Scepter often, so this don’t affect me very much.

9.I agree partially with this, except, you CAN drop the weapon, and it always spawns an extra for any friends that might need/want to use it. So it has its uses.

10.Agree.

1. You can kill things on other classes just by autoattacking too. Does that mean it was effective?

2. You can pretty much get away with anything in pve. In pvp you’re facing some pretty bad opponents if you don’t need the lower cooldowns on swapping.

4. Very few builds that work. Needs more variety

5. Pve? You can do 0 / 0 / 0 / 0 / 0 and still get by. That doesn’t mean it’s good.

6. Staff got nerfed hard. D/D remains the best spec. focus and scepter are “okay” but still need a lot of improvement.

7. Haha, again. I’ll bet there’s “auto-attack only guardians” too.

9. Conjure weapons are worthless because you give up too much utility in order to use them for really sub-par results. Now if say they had really awesome dps, or really awesome defense in the case of the shield, for a short amount of time. Then they might be worth it. As of now though, they’re just fluff to goof around with.

Kuthos.9623:

MethodicMockingbird.6520:

I disagree with most of these points.

1. For the most part, yes, that’s true. However, I’ve seen some Ele’s that stay in Fire and just burn things and that’s all they do and it works. If they get into a dangerous situation, they either run or die, but isn’t that always the case?

2.Disagree completely. I feel no need to spec into Arcana at all; not for cooldown reduction, not for shiny boons, not for dodge finishers.

3.Pretty much agree.

4. Disagree; We have plenty of builds, and they all work; some just can’t handle being “different”.

5.Again, Disagree. Specced in any direction an Ele will work; they’re fluid and versatile, one of (if not the most) the most versatile classes in the game.

6.Disagree. Best in what way? Provide some proof or reasoning, otherwise, all you could be meaning is that D/D is the best build for close-combat and movement, which is true.

7.Agree… Until you meet those Attunement-specific Ele’s (and believe me, they’re out there)

8.Um… Not sure. I don’t play Scepter often, so this don’t affect me very much.

9.I agree partially with this, except, you CAN drop the weapon, and it always spawns an extra for any friends that might need/want to use it. So it has its uses.

10.Agree.

1. You can kill things on other classes just by autoattacking too. Does that mean it was effective?

2. You can pretty much get away with anything in pve. In pvp you’re facing some pretty bad opponents if you don’t need the lower cooldowns on swapping.

4. Very few builds that work. Needs more variety

5. Pve? You can do 0 / 0 / 0 / 0 / 0 and still get by. That doesn’t mean it’s good.

6. Staff got nerfed hard. D/D remains the best spec. focus and scepter are “okay” but still need a lot of improvement.

7. Haha, again. I’ll bet there’s “auto-attack only guardians” too.

9. Conjure weapons are worthless because you give up too much utility in order to use them for really sub-par results. Now if say they had really awesome dps, or really awesome defense in the case of the shield, for a short amount of time. Then they might be worth it. As of now though, they’re just fluff to goof around with.

Love how people act as though sPvP is the only portion of this game that the devs should focus on. Remember when Whirlpool got nerfed – it was to balance PvP and it unbalanced PvE as a result.

Would really love for some people to open their eyes to the fact that PvP isn’t the only way to play this game and balancing a game only around PvP isn’t balancing the game at all.

The builds that work well in PvE can work in PvP – maybe not against people who have played PvP for months on end, but if someone’s better than you they just are. Builds are only a small factor and perhaps the only reason you can’t get staff or s/f to work in PvP is because you need to get better at specs built for them?

Anyways if this is going to become just another PvP rant topic I’m out – wish people weren’t so narrow-minded on the aspects of this game.

This all sounds pretty standard. I largely agree.

1. Yup. Attunement-dancing is really strong, but it would be nice to have the option to specialize. Maybe a major trait in each elemental line that actually weakens the other attunements could help facilitate this kind of option. Could be really tricky to design, though.

2. Very much this.

3. Activity is good! [axegrind] This is why we took the Evasive Arcana nerf so hard: it took out an opportunity for even more activity. [/axegrind]

4. Truth. Focus builds in particular needs some love. It’s not that it’s a bad weapon, it’s that it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to team it up with either the Scepter or the Dagger, especially when off-hand Dagger is so great.

5. This is sorta the same as #4, but glass cannon’s a bit too dangerous most of the time (in PvE, at least).

6. I still like S/D and Staff the most for PvE, but the EA nerf hit the Staff’s potential pretty hard.

7. Yeah. This isn’t specific to the Ele, as most of the professions have bum traits, but getting our problems fixed too would be good.

8. For PvE at least, I think Shatterstone could be awesome in group situations if it were just a bit easier to use it to stack up Vulnerability. You have to devote yourself to recasting it indefinitely to get just 10 or 15 stacks, though. Get stunned for even a moment and it’ll slip down to 5 or 0.

9. The biggest problem with Conjures is they don’t do a good enough job of allowing you to use them. They could be just the trick for covering the melee/ranged gap (you could go D/D and take Frost Bow when you need to attack from a distance, or go Staff and take Lighting Hammer for when you get rushed), but the melee-range Conjures don’t have defensive skills, other than Shield which, even then, is just 3 seconds. They had the right idea with the Attributes, but the skills themselves need to give survivability for melee.

10. Tornado and Flaming Greatsword are both kinda suicidal to use. It would be great if they were better, but I’d really like a few more Elites that actually synergy with the Ele’s playstyle a bit better. Some sort of mega-epic AoE apocalypse spell for Staff Eles, or a massive single-target short-range disabler for D/Ds. I dunno about specifics, just something you can use that actually adds to what you’re already doing, not just something that totally disregards your existing build at best (Greatsword and Tornado) or is just kinda glued to the side (Elemental).

Bvhjdbvkjf.1987:

Kuthos.9623:

MethodicMockingbird.6520:

I disagree with most of these points.

1. For the most part, yes, that’s true. However, I’ve seen some Ele’s that stay in Fire and just burn things and that’s all they do and it works. If they get into a dangerous situation, they either run or die, but isn’t that always the case?

2.Disagree completely. I feel no need to spec into Arcana at all; not for cooldown reduction, not for shiny boons, not for dodge finishers.

3.Pretty much agree.

4. Disagree; We have plenty of builds, and they all work; some just can’t handle being “different”.

5.Again, Disagree. Specced in any direction an Ele will work; they’re fluid and versatile, one of (if not the most) the most versatile classes in the game.

6.Disagree. Best in what way? Provide some proof or reasoning, otherwise, all you could be meaning is that D/D is the best build for close-combat and movement, which is true.

7.Agree… Until you meet those Attunement-specific Ele’s (and believe me, they’re out there)

8.Um… Not sure. I don’t play Scepter often, so this don’t affect me very much.

9.I agree partially with this, except, you CAN drop the weapon, and it always spawns an extra for any friends that might need/want to use it. So it has its uses.

10.Agree.

1. You can kill things on other classes just by autoattacking too. Does that mean it was effective?

2. You can pretty much get away with anything in pve. In pvp you’re facing some pretty bad opponents if you don’t need the lower cooldowns on swapping.

4. Very few builds that work. Needs more variety

5. Pve? You can do 0 / 0 / 0 / 0 / 0 and still get by. That doesn’t mean it’s good.

6. Staff got nerfed hard. D/D remains the best spec. focus and scepter are “okay” but still need a lot of improvement.

7. Haha, again. I’ll bet there’s “auto-attack only guardians” too.

9. Conjure weapons are worthless because you give up too much utility in order to use them for really sub-par results. Now if say they had really awesome dps, or really awesome defense in the case of the shield, for a short amount of time. Then they might be worth it. As of now though, they’re just fluff to goof around with.

Love how people act as though sPvP is the only portion of this game that the devs should focus on. Remember when Whirlpool got nerfed – it was to balance PvP and it unbalanced PvE as a result.

Would really love for some people to open their eyes to the fact that PvP isn’t the only way to play this game and balancing a game only around PvP isn’t balancing the game at all.

The builds that work well in PvE can work in PvP – maybe not against people who have played PvP for months on end, but if someone’s better than you they just are. Builds are only a small factor and perhaps the only reason you can’t get staff or s/f to work in PvP is because you need to get better at specs built for them?

Anyways if this is going to become just another PvP rant topic I’m out – wish people weren’t so narrow-minded on the aspects of this game.

You completely missed my entire point. My point was that you cannot base your opinions of “effective” builds based off of mindless open world pve. If you’re talking dungeon explorable mode then maybe you have an argument. Explorables are pretty much a joke anymore though as long as you’re not running with idiots.

And no, you can’t get away with builds in pvp that you can get away with in pvp. You know why there’s better players? One of the reasons is they find the builds that actually work. That’s half the reason of why some people are better than others right there.

Staff used to do pretty good as bunker until they nerfed it. Now it’s pretty much trash except for sieges in WvW.

Scepter / Focus are “okay” but still need some work. If they were as good as it should be “with the right build” you would see more of them. You don’t.

I tried speccing to optimize everything I got form conjure weapons. Greatsword is decent, but you’re just a warrior with lower damage. The others aren’t even worth mentioning. The damage on flaming axe is embarrassing. Why would I use a skill to be able to conjure up a weapon that prevents me from using any of my normal skills, when the skills and damage is worse than my actual skills?

6. Dagger/Dagger is currently our best weapon loadout.

Very subjective. It may be so for 1vs1 situations, but by no means does it hold true for the entire game.

Kuthos.9623:

Bvhjdbvkjf.1987:

Kuthos.9623:

MethodicMockingbird.6520:

I disagree with most of these points.

1. For the most part, yes, that’s true. However, I’ve seen some Ele’s that stay in Fire and just burn things and that’s all they do and it works. If they get into a dangerous situation, they either run or die, but isn’t that always the case?

2.Disagree completely. I feel no need to spec into Arcana at all; not for cooldown reduction, not for shiny boons, not for dodge finishers.

3.Pretty much agree.

4. Disagree; We have plenty of builds, and they all work; some just can’t handle being “different”.

5.Again, Disagree. Specced in any direction an Ele will work; they’re fluid and versatile, one of (if not the most) the most versatile classes in the game.

6.Disagree. Best in what way? Provide some proof or reasoning, otherwise, all you could be meaning is that D/D is the best build for close-combat and movement, which is true.

7.Agree… Until you meet those Attunement-specific Ele’s (and believe me, they’re out there)

8.Um… Not sure. I don’t play Scepter often, so this don’t affect me very much.

9.I agree partially with this, except, you CAN drop the weapon, and it always spawns an extra for any friends that might need/want to use it. So it has its uses.

10.Agree.

1. You can kill things on other classes just by autoattacking too. Does that mean it was effective?

2. You can pretty much get away with anything in pve. In pvp you’re facing some pretty bad opponents if you don’t need the lower cooldowns on swapping.

4. Very few builds that work. Needs more variety

5. Pve? You can do 0 / 0 / 0 / 0 / 0 and still get by. That doesn’t mean it’s good.

6. Staff got nerfed hard. D/D remains the best spec. focus and scepter are “okay” but still need a lot of improvement.

7. Haha, again. I’ll bet there’s “auto-attack only guardians” too.

9. Conjure weapons are worthless because you give up too much utility in order to use them for really sub-par results. Now if say they had really awesome dps, or really awesome defense in the case of the shield, for a short amount of time. Then they might be worth it. As of now though, they’re just fluff to goof around with.

Love how people act as though sPvP is the only portion of this game that the devs should focus on. Remember when Whirlpool got nerfed – it was to balance PvP and it unbalanced PvE as a result.

Would really love for some people to open their eyes to the fact that PvP isn’t the only way to play this game and balancing a game only around PvP isn’t balancing the game at all.

The builds that work well in PvE can work in PvP – maybe not against people who have played PvP for months on end, but if someone’s better than you they just are. Builds are only a small factor and perhaps the only reason you can’t get staff or s/f to work in PvP is because you need to get better at specs built for them?

Anyways if this is going to become just another PvP rant topic I’m out – wish people weren’t so narrow-minded on the aspects of this game.

You completely missed my entire point. My point was that you cannot base your opinions of “effective” builds based off of mindless open world pve. If you’re talking dungeon explorable mode then maybe you have an argument. Explorables are pretty much a joke anymore though as long as you’re not running with idiots.

And no, you can’t get away with builds in pvp that you can get away with in pvp. You know why there’s better players? One of the reasons is they find the builds that actually work. That’s half the reason of why some people are better than others right there.

Staff used to do pretty good as bunker until they nerfed it. Now it’s pretty much trash except for sieges in WvW.

Scepter / Focus are “okay” but still need some work. If they were as good as it should be “with the right build” you would see more of them. You don’t.

All I hear in this post is “bunker”, “pvp”, and “build=skill”. I think you completely ignored the point that he made (and that I hinted at), which is that this game is not just about pvp, or just about anything for that matter. Builds that are effective in pve may not be as effective in pvp, true, but that’s why there are other builds and such choice in how we can trait and specc our characters. I don’t think anyone is demanding that Staff be as great at killing moving targets in pvp as it is with nuking fairly stationary ones in pve, nor that D/D gain outrageous healing ability. Each one has its strengths and weaknesses.

nice thread
I would underline that the worst thing so far is the lack of direct feedback from developers. Any problem can be fixed if we talk: problems will just grow either in numbers or size if we don’t talk.

I think you’ve pretty much hit the nail on the head here, It’s not than D/D needs any sort of buff, because it doesn’t. I believe it’s in a fairly good place at the moment, However, everything else could use some attention. Our traits, weapon skills Etc.

@ mainly MethodicMockingbird (and partially Bvhjdbvkjf)
(Sorry lost my ability to quote )

No, I actually think Kuthos hit the nail on the head and that you’ve both missed his point entirely. He’s not advocating spvp as the method to balance skills! Both of you seemed to have thought that, but it’s not what he is saying. It’s a shame you didn’t read the follow-up post properly either

I think you’re absolutely fine to give your opinions. I’m mainly a PvE player
So I do partially agree with your post! Just to point out that I would really love there to be a PvE/PvP split in terms of skill balancing. However, I would have to agree with Kuthos, in the sense that some weapon sets aren’t popular, because they’re just not as effective as others even with the right spec.

We do need to keep in mind that everyone will have a slightly skewed view on how things should function. I think he made a good point in that people are much more likely to experiment with skills/traits/builds in spvp and have them actively tested against competent players. Not AI. I would think in this case, it is easier to see where professions have shortcomings.

However! He did not say that spvp should be used to balance the game. He made the point that in PvE, pretty much anything works. Which is true. You mentioned in your previous post that specced in any direction, elementalists are ‘fluid and versatile’. If that’s based on purely PvE experiences then… do you not think it could also be that the gameplay is just artificially easy? You could spec into nothing and probably get the same results. If you try experimenting in a different format of play, then you may see things aren’t as diverse as you think they are.

11. Bugs and lack of communication about bugs are demoralizing.

That should be rated first. The others are ok.

MethodicMockingbird.6520:

I disagree with most of these points.

1. For the most part, yes, that’s true. However, I’ve seen some Ele’s that stay in Fire and just burn things and that’s all they do and it works. If they get into a dangerous situation, they either run or die, but isn’t that always the case?

2.Disagree completely. I feel no need to spec into Arcana at all; not for cooldown reduction, not for shiny boons, not for dodge finishers.

3.Pretty much agree.

4. Disagree; We have plenty of builds, and they all work; some just can’t handle being “different”.

5.Again, Disagree. Specced in any direction an Ele will work; they’re fluid and versatile, one of (if not the most) the most versatile classes in the game.

6.Disagree. Best in what way? Provide some proof or reasoning, otherwise, all you could be meaning is that D/D is the best build for close-combat and movement, which is true.

7.Agree… Until you meet those Attunement-specific Ele’s (and believe me, they’re out there)

8.Um… Not sure. I don’t play Scepter often, so this don’t affect me very much.

9.I agree partially with this, except, you CAN drop the weapon, and it always spawns an extra for any friends that might need/want to use it. So it has its uses.

10.Agree.

Here’s the thing, you can go against the conventional wisdom and not swap attunements, you can use those traits that help a specific attunement, you can use weapons other than D/D, you can stay away from the Arcana trait line, you can refuse to make an auramancer build, you can gear for something other than survivability, it’s all possible. What I’m largely saying, though, is that if you do any of these things, you won’t be as good as you would had you done them. By making any of those choices, you’re essentially hobbling yourself. That shouldn’t be true, which is what all those statements are saying, but it sadly is.

From what I see, you actually agree with the sentiment of all those statements, you just don’t accept the reality they spell out.

And if you say “I’m not in some auramancer spec and I do fine” without having actually tried said auramancer spec, then you can’t really comment, can you? I thought I was doing fine. I went 0/30/10/0/30 D/D, focusing on crits. I could dish out a lot of damage, but not as much as some other professions like Warrior or Thief. At the same time, I couldn’t survive as well as either a warrior or thief. It was most noticeable once I got into Orr or did dungeons. Melee wasn’t a thing I could survive doing in WvW.

Then I bit the bullet and tried a 0/10/10/20/30 auramancer build (before the EA nerf), and I never looked back. I was flat out better than before, and not just by a little bit. All those things I couldn’t do before suddenly became within reach. I wasn’t faceplanting constantly, enemies weren’t singling me out as the easiest to kill (aggro in this game isn’t determined purely by damage). I could contribute more in every situation.

So yes, you can do other things, but the problem is why would you? Some twisted sense of wanting to be unique? If you believe that’s worth torturing yourself over, then go for it. For the rest of us, we’d like more options for our characters that allow us to be just as viable. We would LOVE for what you’re saying to be true, but it’s just not.

I agree with almost everything OP stated… with a few minor cents to add.

Most of us can stand to play other classes, we just love the ele. I find other classes fun as well, I simly prefer ele because its so unique, with engineer right along next to it.

As for the conjure weapons, thats a serious problem that there is no answer for. Theres really no way to change them and not make them either worthless , or OP. I used to think that the conjure weapons should work on the fly similar to the engineer weapon kits, but with how the ele works he’d just be too powerful. If you could make a proper build out of the conjured hammer, ele would steal all of the guardians spotlight… seriously.

Other than that, I agree. Staff is great for everything except for small fights and 1 on 1… and scepter has so much potential but in the end its just awkward. Focus sucks.

We need to be able to use more weapons… swords, axe, something.

Agreed, plus lack of communication!

Kuthos.9623:

Seetoo.9316:

1. If you’re not attunement swapping, you’re doing it wrong. You should be attunement swapping during a fight so as to get the most out of your elementalist. Elementalists were balanced around attunement-swapping, so anyone who’s not doing it is hobbling themselves. This leads us to a few of the next ones, including…

FALSE. Elementalists are NOT balanced around attunement-swapping. The community in majority wants it to be this way but it is NOT. How to tell?
- The arcane trait line reduces our attune swap cd. If it were true that we are supposed to swap as much as possible, then the cd reduction should be baseline.
- Trait lines cater to specific elements (more damage in fire/wind etc)
- Only 1 trait line builds around the idea of constant attune swap

For the statement “elementalists are balanced around attunement-swap” to be true, all traits must cater to this idea.

Again, it’s something we want. It’s something we’ve fooled ourselves into believing is true. Right now, it just isn’t.

Wrong. The CD reduction was suppose to be a “perk”. However it’s basically a necessity. There’s a difference.

But the CD reduction isn’t just a perk, rather a necessity (as you call it). It therefore supports the arguement that the elementalist is NOT balanced around attunement-swap.

Kuthos.9623:

If ele’s were not based around attunement swapping they would have created the class just like the others. You spec into an element, then choose between two weapons to swap between. This is not the case.

Look at your words. Ele’s ARE “based” on attunement swap, but they are NOT BALANCED on it. 4/5 trait lines support staying in 1 elem while only 1/5 traits supports swapping.

Being “based” on something is not the same as being “balanced” with it in mind. “based” is not the same as “balanced”.

Your post makes no sense. If ele’s are not balanced around attument swapping, then it would be perfectly viable to sit around in fire and dps and not get owned in pvp / carried by your group in a dungeon. It HAS to be balanced around attument swapping because they allow you to do it. And very frequently. Therefore they expect you to swap a lot. If they didn’t, they would make us spec into one element and stay in that element the majority of the time.

Kuthos.9623:

Your post makes no sense. If ele’s are not balanced around attument swapping, then it would be perfectly viable to sit around in fire and dps and not get owned in pvp / carried by your group in a dungeon. It HAS to be balanced around attument swapping because they allow you to do it. And very frequently. Therefore they expect you to swap a lot. If they didn’t, they would make us spec into one element and stay in that element the majority of the time.

The fact that there are traits that specifically cater to staying in 1 element proves that ele’s are NOT balanced around swapping. Plain and simple.

Could you please remind me what the optimal staff dps does in dungeons? I’m pretty sure they stay in fire spamming 1 and 2. Any time they swap out of fire, they lose dps. Isn’t that correct?

These examples destroy the claim that “ele’s are balanced around swapping”. You see that statement means “swapping is ALWAYS better than not swapping”. Any example showing otherwise means it is not true.

Elementalist is far from straight dps like most classes. You can stay in fire all you want, but I’ll be supporting my team with crowd control, heals, and everything else that make dungeon runs much smoother than just fire dps.

Traits that specifically cater to 1 element prove nothing. It’s an additional bonus for when you’re in that element. That’s it.

If staying in one attunement predominantly was actually viable then I’m sure many of us would do that but this stupid “versatility” that we’re counter balanced against completely negates the viability of one attunement. Perhaps if our single attunement buffing traits were so ridiculously OP to put us above thief/warrior burst or tanky like a guardian then the argument would hold water.

The bottom line is that the class as it is currently DOES NOT live up to the description and characteristics of what they originally stated. We are a swiss army knife but one without a sharp edge and if we by some small miracle are actually able to cut something be sure that it will be changed very fast.

I think people overlook the way an elementalist produces damage.

A warrior does direct damge (melee) whereas an elementalist deals it via also creating conditions on the enemy and boons on one self. Therefore, it is logical to have an elementalist’s direct damage smaller than when compared to a warior since it will level its self out, especially BY ATTUNEMENT SWAPPING.

This is the core mechanic of using an elementalist, and sure its fine to use one element for the most part, however, to deal maximum damage all 4 elements need to be used.

As for the trait line. This is used to further add to each players prefered playing style. Each element focuses more on certain game mechanics (i.e. support, tank, damage etc.). In the end, in general, majority of players will find benefits to use certain aspects of the traitline and will focus on them more than others.

Agree with most of what the OP said, but honestly it would be as simple as increasing our baseline health as well.

Did you guys know we have 5k base HP then other light armor classes? My mesmer without armor at 80 has 5000 more hp then my elementalist also without armor.

That’s a huge advantage right there for any other classes. That never made much sense to me.

I don’t even main an Elementalist and i would still have to agree on ALL points of the OP.

Cheers

MrQuizzles.6823:

Okay, let’s all create a list of the things the Elementalist community generally agrees upon about our profession. What I mean is that we need to create some cribnotes for any dev that enters this forum. By posting these generally-agree-upon opinions about the elementalist profession, you can get a good sense of where the Elementalist is as a profession and perhaps where it needs to go in the future.

From what I gather, here’s a few of them:

1. If you’re not attunement swapping, you’re doing it wrong. You should be attunement swapping during a fight so as to get the most out of your elementalist. Elementalists were balanced around attunement-swapping, so anyone who’s not doing it is hobbling themselves. This leads us to a few of the next ones, including…

2. The Arcana trait line is the best trait line, and it feels mandatory. Even after the nerf to EA, most people would call you insane to not include at least 10 points in the Arcana line in order to get the Elemental Attunement trait. That trait is so ubiquitous amongst elementalists that the devs should really consider just making it a class feature. The attunement cooldown reduction is also extremely nice. Again, some of that attunement cooldown should probably be incorporated into the base class so as to make the Arcana trait line feel less mandatory.

3. For those whose main is an Ele, we enjoy the active playstyle of the elementalist. People just starting out with the elementalist might find it off-putting because it’s not what they expected. For the people who have experienced it and chose to stick with it, we enjoy it immensely. For us, it’s what defines the elementalist profession, what sets it apart from all the other professions.It’s really fun, and we don’t understand how people can stand to play the other professions.

4. We wish we had more builds. Currently, every build circulating around this forum is a D/D Auramancer spec or some variant of it. It’s pretty clear that it’s our best build; nothing else comes close. What builds have you seen that have 30 points in either fire or air? None.

I agree with almost EVERYTHING you saying.
I enjoy playing Other proffessions because of different playstyle prefferences.
And Best build is really a none-existance. But I can see what u mean with Arcana Traits. It is useful.

As for Weapons:
I prefer Staff and Scepter+Dagger style.
But I do play Dagger+Dagger from time to time. Depending on the situation of course.

But Having more builds for all classes is always nice! I welcome it. =) Nice Thread!

Elementalist ftw!!!

MrQuizzles.6823:

7. Many of our major traits, especially the ones that enhance a specific attunement, aren’t very good.

9. Conjures are sub-par.

I just started playing a baby elementalist, so I don’t really know the class…. but I was annoyed when I found out the Conjurer trait needed 20 pts in Fire. Conjurers are all four elements, but the trait to buff them goes in fire? Weird.

My suggestions to fix OP’s issues:

1 – bake-in the swap-cooldowns in 30pt arcana, and replace that major bonus with an increase in conjured weapon charges.

2 – bake-in any arcana traits which are considered mandatory, and create new traits which focus arcana on the enhancement and use of conjured weapons (arcana becomes the “conjured weapons” trait-line)

3 – fix scepter’s skills so they fire missiles at the target which cause splash damage rather than center the over their head or at their feet. you’d think the insane cast and charge time would be enough.