Guild Wars 2

It seems warriors, thieves, ect can face roll on the keyboard and find a way to deal more than 3k damage in an attack, but my elementalist has to align the stars and planets to come close to that amount of damage.

Seriously … its like a check list … am I above 90% health, am I within 600 units, am I in the correct attunement, does that attunement even have a damage ability off cooldown, ect, ect.

Even after the hammer nerf my warrior has 500 more armor, nearly double the hitpoint, and can press just about any attack and deal more damage than my elementalist whenever he wants.

I found the damage!

Taldren.7523:

Even after the hammer nerf my warrior has 500 more armor, nearly double the hitpoint, and can press just about any attack and deal more damage than my elementalist whenever he wants.

Then why don’t you go play warrior if they’re so great? Because hitting for more than 3k with my staff ele certainly isn’t a problem for me…but if it’s not working for you, why play it?

Staff (fire) auto attack does more damage than warrior hammer. Also, dagger (lightning) auto attack does more damage than warrior hammer.

You don’t even need to press a button! But, if you feel like it, you can toss in some lava fonts/fire grabs/dragon’s tooth/phoenix depending on your weapon of choice.

Kharr.5746:

Staff (fire) auto attack does more damage than warrior hammer. Also, dagger (lightning) auto attack does more damage than warrior hammer.

You don’t even need to press a button! But, if you feel like it, you can toss in some lava fonts/fire grabs/dragon’s tooth/phoenix depending on your weapon of choice.

Fire Grab: horrible unless they are burning and the facing mechanic goes off in the direction your character was facing when you pressed the button. Really bad if you are strafing and/or mouselooking. Requires setup.

Lava Font: Good only vs a group of people, else it is a dps loser over autoattack unless you immobilize them for at least 2 ticks. Requires setup.

Dragon’s Tooth: Worse than lava font … unless you immobilize them it does no damage. Requires setup.

Phoenix is good, but its a single attack and then what? Autoattack again?

You know how easy it is with other classes? Target -> press button. Hardly any need for setup which may not be possible due to the fact that the ability you need for the setup may be on cooldown or locked out due to attunement.

Worst of all is the fact that even after all the setup you are doing the same damage other classes are doing without the need.

The damage is in my sig, over in PvE land

Show us your build so we can tell what’s wrong. My ele can do more damage than a hammer warrior with lightining auto attack (of course I need to stack might up first)

ThiBash.5634:

Taldren.7523:

Even after the hammer nerf my warrior has 500 more armor, nearly double the hitpoint, and can press just about any attack and deal more damage than my elementalist whenever he wants.

Then why don’t you go play warrior if they’re so great? Because hitting for more than 3k with my staff ele certainly isn’t a problem for me…but if it’s not working for you, why play it?

It’s people like you who makes the ele forums sad and gloomy. You guys always spout something along the lines of “I’m not having any problems with my ele, re-roll to another class if you are” instead of actually helping.

@TS
You’ll get somewhat acceptable amount of damage with around 3k+ attack and 40%+ Crit damage regardless of the weapon you use though it’s not really comparable to what warriors can do. Stacking up might helps a lot which is pretty easy for eles especially with a Sigil of Battle. If you want a good amount of damage, then you probably need at least more than 3.6k attack and 70% crit damage. This is for WvW, I play in JQ where our enemy worlds are usually tanky.

As for fire grab, the easiest basic setup is to probably use Burning Speed (be sure that you pass through your enemy so he’ll be standing in the fire trail) then immediately turn around and cast Fire Grab. It hits a lot more than using Drake’s Breath then aiming your Fire Grab on a moving player, at least for me.

But to be precise, the damage of an elementalist does not come from a single attack but rather by chaining your skills especially on non staff builds. If you miss a lot of your skills, don’t expect to get an easy kill.

if you want easy mode, something more akin to warrior play, try a fresh air D/x build. And don’t take the “above 90% health” damage stuff. Continually spam lighting whip, swap to a random attunement. Any useful skills off cooldown here? yes? use them. no? swap back to air. repeat every 5 seconds

anyway I do tons of damage. tons. I’ve had people on the enemy team feel the need to comment about how much damage I was doing. You just have to build offensively.

Anierna.6918:

The damage is in my sig, over in PvE land

Well, yeah, I’ll give you that. In PvE ele is a powerhouse … esp with LH.

My Roaming Build and my Group Build

Builds created so I can swap back and forth without needing to go to the bank or trainer.

Taldren.7523:

Builds created so I can swap back and forth without needing to go to the bank or trainer.

WAIT WHAT
What is this? Someone please explain

reikken.4961:

Taldren.7523:

Builds created so I can swap back and forth without needing to go to the bank or trainer.

WAIT WHAT
What is this? Someone please explain

They two builds use the same template of 0/30/0/20/20 … only need to carry a staff and swap traits. No need to go reset your traits or carry multiple sets of armor.

Warriors can be pesky. It varies on players skill, build diversity, foods and situation and prior update. I either kill them in 4-5 elemental chain swaps or we fight like for 15-20 mins. I whip around 1.8 to 2.5k constant on most wars. The tanky ones that have guild buffs, food and gear I can hit 800 to 1k.
I won’t die unless if I run or someone joins the fight like a friend BS for 8k on me haha. Yes even highest BS on hits me around 8k sadly I only have around 15.8k hp and with stacks around 19-20. My 25 stack of blood lust and food can burst people pretty good. I solo wvw and I rank 275 on solo ele and 350 on my acct amongst war, guardian, thief, necro and Mesmer.

I’m a rank 40 in spvp and close to 14.5k rep points I jack of all trades. I’m well know as a cuddle D/D in spvp and Borlis Pass 4v4. DD ele with earth elemental can take a camp solo within 60 seconds to 75 seconds np without stacks. Staff ele’s are great I staff if I have too to control large chokes points via 20 v 40 fight and win or tip a scale. I can even go DF and burst into a zerg and survive downing 1-2 guys.
So its really based on are you prepare or caught of guard… and conditions are stupid. I defeat everyone variant of ele d/f, df/, sd ,sf, staff. SO Spvp 1-2 hours a day WvW 1-2 hours a day and pve 1-1/2 a 91/2 work day On weekends I can do like 7-9 hours easily throught out the day ha ha. Elementalist requires extra care but yield great enjoyments. SO

@ Taldren

Roaming build – I would swap Air IX with X, air skills will recharge on crit so taking that additional reduction is not very helpful, as you have 50 CC and 80CD. For Water I would swap out VI with III….get more use out of your cantrips.

Group/Staff Build – Look at swapping Air IX with XI. I would look at swapping FGS with Tornado, because MS + Tornado is awesome. Also, try swapping out Frost Bow with maybe Arcane Shield or Mistform. Arcane shield is very useful to get some of you long casting skills (MS) off and gives you a couple secs when you are waiting for that heal to come off cooldown. If you run this in WvW I would suggest changing food for staff and/or looking at secondary trinkets,rings, etc etc……I would increase vitality,toughness, and healing.

Taldren.7523:

My Roaming Build and my Group Build

Builds created so I can swap back and forth without needing to go to the bank or trainer.

Problem identified Traveler Runes aren’t great DPS runes neither is divinity they are great for critical damage. You wan’t better damage go eagle, orbs, strength, scholar, ogre, rune of ranger.

Traveler runes are taken for critical damage, the 6th piece, or the boon duration. They are not a dps rune set.

Travelers are the hot rune.. if you want speed and viability use Rune of Speed. It’s a lot cheaper. Slap it on a guardian or a thief just for fun and see.
For DD ele
0 20 0 20 30 is still fun. I use celestial chest/pants, Pvt head/shoulders/ shoes and gloves with Divinity (Doesn’t really make a diff you can use Eagle, Scholar or Speed so you can drop air sig) ascended cavalier dagger with Sigil of Battle while the off hand is either/ ascended celestial superior precession Dagger/ or beserker with Bloodlust to build up might and a Focus with superior precision to fight in a close battle of 20v20 kinda battle.
Ascended Trinkets I used berserker necklace, cavalier rings and ear rings and berserker back.
Sigil of air is a nice blind for an easy stomp/ speed boost/ break stun. Well just roll off a ranger when she uses her down stun. Cleansing Fire is a must… who doesn’t bring condition removal in wvw or spvp. Last spot you can use Lightning Flash , armor of earth (it’s not as viable anymore with all those conditions now or sig of fire. Guard leach, Guard vitality, food, oil, I my base cc is from 50-55 and when I attunement swap or use an aura I have 70 to 75%.. So it’s quiet beast with 1680 to 1750 tough. use Earth sigil if you want more defense, your going to roll around 1900 tough but that’s not viable in a condition fight.
AIR I and X
Water V and X
Arcane II VIII and XII
Have fun and use your best Judgement. If you die….. I don’t know you

I agree with ThiBash here I have a warrior and it’s apples to oranges. Really all the classes are apples to oranges people just like to compare alot because certain things are similar.

Warrior is my second favorite class mostly because of the amount of weapons it has and I had my warrior before healing signet buff etc.

Warrior has it’s own problems and isn’t perfect it just has a few good builds. People talk about warrior mobility but that is tied to GS or Sword mainhand. Hambow warriors aren’t mobile. Axe isn’t mobile, mace isn’t mobile.

In a PvP setting Greatsword isn’t a self sufficient weapon for damage. It’s terrible for damage because you can’t setup the damage on it’s own and you need a mace off-set, hammer, bullscharge + frenzy combo. Greatsword is the most popular weapon set for warriors but for damage I would take D/D ele over it any day.

Warrior is a good profession but it isn’t perfect. The damage is there for warrior it always has been actually warriors did more damage when berseker’s power and heightened focus where adept. Now warrior can just face tank with healing signet forcing the opponent to blow dodges so they can land their big skills.

warrior, ranger, engi, thief = press 1 button to do damage.

mesmer, necro, guardian = press maybe 4 buttons

ele = use all the buttons on different attunements for meh damage!

CDUB.1645

Roaming build – I would swap Air IX with X, air skills will recharge on crit so taking that additional reduction is not very helpful, as you have 50 CC and 80CD. For Water I would swap out VI with III….get more use out of your cantrips.

The attunement will recharge on crit, not the abilities. My reasoning for Air IX is for the faster knockdown to land dragon tooth and faster blinds so I can try and save my dodges. As for Water III … I normally don’t see a fight where I would be able to use Armor of Earth more than once a fight with or without it, so it would all come down to Lightning Flash. Before the stun break nerf to Lighting Flash, it would have been a no brainer … now … I am not so sure.

CDUB.1645

Group/Staff Build – Look at swapping Air IX with XI. I would look at swapping FGS with Tornado, because MS + Tornado is awesome. Also, try swapping out Frost Bow with maybe Arcane Shield or Mistform. Arcane shield is very useful to get some of you long casting skills (MS) off and gives you a couple secs when you are waiting for that heal to come off cooldown. If you run this in WvW I would suggest changing food for staff and/or looking at secondary trinkets,rings, etc etc……I would increase vitality,toughness, and healing.

In most of the fights I see in Tier1, I don’t see many opportunities to use Tornado and survive.
What food would you suggest?
I am working on a secondary Celestial trinket set for when I go staff, but its going to take a while as I have so many other characters to gear up. Just finished my Mesmer and working on my necro trinkets now. Playing my Mesmer feels like cheating compared to Ele at equal gear levels.

Gotta love how theres a post like this in every profession forum at least 2 times a week. I regularly do 6 to 8k auto attacks with lightning whip in lvl 49 fractals (counting both hits). I can maintain 25 might stacks on all party members when coordinating with our guards. I can go invulnerable multiple times to rez, and bring orjectile protection.

In pvp there are 3 main factors that determine the outcome of a fight. 1) who gets the first hit 2)build type (tanky condition dealer is hard to beat on a burst) 3) skill difference. Note that class isn’t even relevant in that, and that the person to land the first hit will generally have a massive advantage. Ive killed warriors before my first attunement came off cooldown because i surprised them, the very element that makes thieves so strong. You also have to know the limits of your build, s/d burst isnt going to beat a bunker unless they are really bad.

Elementalists have a lot of damage, just require a fast and very active playstyle, please dont try to take that away because you enjoy slapping 1.

Thor Rising.7850:

[…]PvE[…]Fractals[…]

All classes are viable in PvE. Being able to do the most damage is PvE is like have the most amount of monopoly money.

Thor Rising.7850:

In pvp there are 3 main factors that determine the outcome of a fight. 1) who gets the first hit 2)build type (tanky condition dealer is hard to beat on a burst) 3) skill difference. Note that class isn’t even relevant in that, and that the person to land the first hit will generally have a massive advantage. Ive killed warriors before my first attunement came off cooldown because i surprised them, the very element that makes thieves so strong. You also have to know the limits of your build, s/d burst isnt going to beat a bunker unless they are really bad.

Elementalists have a lot of damage, just require a fast and very active playstyle, please dont try to take that away because you enjoy slapping 1.

Your wrong, Elementalist has the same damage output as other classes with the highest amount of risk. So in essence the class is all risk with no reward other than the high you get after going balls out against another player to beat them. Then again, you could have done the same thing with any other class with half the required energy.

I don’t mind the Ele being fragile, but where the hell is the reward for the risk inherent to the class? And no, I don’t count being mediocre at everything as a reward.

My necro hits mutliple targets for 8k (in a line) with every lifeblast … my ele I can be above the 90% health cap and still not break 6k with a dragon tooth if the target would bother to stand still long enough for it to hit.

Taldren.7523:

My necro hits mutliple targets for 8k (in a line) with every lifeblast …

An 8k auto attack? I’m assuming that’s all targets combined?

ThiBash.5634:

Taldren.7523:

My necro hits mutliple targets for 8k (in a line) with every lifeblast …

An 8k auto attack? I’m assuming that’s all targets combined?

No, its per target. I usually hit guardians/warriors for 4k and have seen 10k on lighter classes. I would say the average is around ~7k per target per lifeblast below 600 range and ~5k above 600 range. Since it pierces it usually hits more than 5 people too … its sort of sick.

The build wasn’t viable before because LifeForce dropped so quickly that you couldn’t really utilize it, but after the patch you will likely see way more Deathshroud Power Necros. Especially if they continue to nerf the condition meta.

Taldren.7523:

Your wrong, Elementalist has the same damage output as other classes with the highest amount of risk. So in essence the class is all risk with no reward other than the high you get after going balls out against another player to beat them. Then again, you could have done the same thing with any other class with half the required energy.

I don’t mind the Ele being fragile, but where the hell is the reward for the risk inherent to the class? And no, I don’t count being mediocre at everything as a reward.

My necro hits mutliple targets for 8k (in a line) with every lifeblast … my ele I can be above the 90% health cap and still not break 6k with a dragon tooth if the target would bother to stand still long enough for it to hit.

Well you kind of prove his point because you bring up a 1 skill and how awesome it is doing alot of damage. Now you switched to Necromancer so the conversation can now go around in circles because you brought another class in the ring. You didn’t bring up warrior damage you jumped all the way to a power necro in deathshroud!! You are just stating your opinion about ele damage vs whichever of the other 7 professions best suits your argument at the time.

That is pretty much what ThiBash was saying.

So might aswell get it out of the way.

Ele can’t condi like a necro
Ele can’t condi like a engi
Ele can’t bunker like a guardian
Ele can’t bunker like a ranger
Ele can’t out dps a warrior
Ele can’t run around in circles letting elementals kill people like a mesmer with phantasms can.
Ele doesn’t have mobility like a thief or burst like a thief.

Its all basically whining about ele because you have to press more buttons to get the same result. Elementalist press more buttons for everything that is kind of the point. Does that require more effort to try to achieve the same? Sure technically if you have to press 5 buttons to kill someone instead of just pressing 2 that is technically more effort. That is also obvious when you pick up the class.

It’s like you are arguing a No Duh topic.

oZii.2864:

Well you kind of prove his point because you bring up a 1 skill and how awesome it is doing alot of damage. Now you switched to Necromancer so the conversation can now go around in circles because you brought another class in the ring. You didn’t bring up warrior damage you jumped all the way to a power necro in deathshroud!! You are just stating your opinion about ele damage vs whichever of the other 7 professions best suits your argument at the time.

That is pretty much what ThiBash was saying.

So might aswell get it out of the way.

Ele can’t condi like a necro
Ele can’t condi like a engi
Ele can’t bunker like a guardian
Ele can’t bunker like a ranger
Ele can’t out dps a warrior
Ele can’t run around in circles letting elementals kill people like a mesmer with phantasms can

No where I have compared or even brought up anything you listed there outside of the dps vs warriors. Can you not be honest in your accusations? Here, let me bring you back into context …

Taldren.7523:

It seems warriors, thieves, ect can face roll on the keyboard and find a way to deal more than 3k damage in an attack, but my elementalist has to align the stars and planets to come close to that amount of damage.

You notice that I never made this specific to warrior vs ele , but that is all you have focused on.

I have been on point with the original post the entire time. That is … in equal level gear other classes have far more reward for any risk while doing similar, if not better damage, than the elementalist in WvW/PvP. To support this arguement I have listed my personal experiences with each of the classes I have played seriously.

Everything has been apples to apples power builds vs power builds. I have never played a condi elementalist to even make a valid comparison and I can’t bring myself to speak of what they did to my D/D bunker ele I so loved playing. Not that I think anything could oust bunker guardian from the top of that heap (well … maybe bunker engineer if you have enough space to run around).

It actually proves my point that an elementalist needs to do so many different things very quickly under ever changing conditions to do the damage that someone else can do in a single button press.

Given the hardship/risk, I expect better reward than what others can achieve in a single button press. That seems rather common sense to me, but if you disagree than we will never come to terms on this issue.

oZii.2864:

Its all basically whining about ele because you have to press more buttons to get the same result. Elementalist press more buttons for everything that is kind of the point. Does that require more effort to try to achieve the same? Sure technically if you have to press 5 buttons to kill someone instead of just pressing 2 that is technically more effort. That is also obvious when you pick up the class.

Nice ninja edit after the fact. You admit that you have to apply more effort to get the same … and accept the least amount of survivability in the game as a given for it.

I’m sorry, but that isn’t acceptable by any rational person.

oZii.2864:

Ele can’t out dps a warrior

Just a minor point; in PvE, Ele does higher dmg than War. I expected you to know this, as well as exactly how an Ele achieves it, but if you don’t, the link’s in my sig.

Now that my guide’s done, I’m looking for another project. I could get started on a War vs Ele dmg comparison in PvE to tell you exactly how much more dmg an Ele does than a War, if you’re interested.

idk, maybe it’s just because I’m really bad at warrior, but it seems like ele can outdps warrior easily. in pvp

Anierna.6918:

oZii.2864:

Ele can’t out dps a warrior

Just a minor point; in PvE, Ele does higher dmg than War. I expected you to know this, as well as exactly how an Ele achieves it, but if you don’t, the link’s in my sig.

Now that my guide’s done, I’m looking for another project. I could get started on a War vs Ele dmg comparison in PvE to tell you exactly how much more dmg an Ele does than a War, if you’re interested.

Yea I know in PvE ele does more damage this was more PvP/WvW focused topic.

Hi I didn’t read anything. Ele has the most damage modifier traits in the game. That is where the damage is

FrownyClown.8402:

Hi I didn’t read anything. Ele has the most damage modifier traits in the game. That is where the damage is

Too bad most of them are limited to specific attunements that are mutually exclusive to one another. The only ones that aren’t are further limited by other factors. As I keep pointing out … all the hoops that need to be jumped through to get to any sort of reward for the base line risk is insane.

Taldren.7523:

FrownyClown.8402:

Hi I didn’t read anything. Ele has the most damage modifier traits in the game. That is where the damage is

Too bad most of them are limited to specific attunements that are mutually exclusive to one another. The only ones that aren’t are further limited by other factors. As I keep pointing out … all the hoops that need to be jumped through to get to any sort of reward for the base line risk is insane.

I agree. But water damage modifier traits are adept. At least 1 in fire is adept. The 1 in earth is adept. You can make a staff build right there. Maybe even a scepter build. You just sacrafice better defensive traits.

Taldren.7523:

Too bad most of them are limited to specific attunements that are mutually exclusive to one another. The only ones that aren’t are further limited by other factors. As I keep pointing out … all the hoops that need to be jumped through to get to any sort of reward for the base line risk is insane.

10% damage while in air – fresh air trait lets this be on almost all the time
10% damage within 600 range – obv on all the time when using a short range weapon
10% damage to burning targets – can have pretty good uptime, especially if you combine with the burn on crit trait
20% damage to targets below 33% health – this one is pretty obv

none of these are mutually exclusive in any way, nor do you have to do anything special to get them. and I run all of them on my glass D/x builds

plus precision and crit damage are in the same trait line, and contain two of these damage traits (along with fresh air), as well as the minor trait that does ranged instant damage every time you swap to air (which is very frequently with fresh air). and this same trait line also inflicts vulnerability on crit, which is basically another %damage increase, except it has to ramp up

seriously. see my first post in this topic. I wasn’t kidding

Taldren, I think I have found the point at which our communication fails.

Your point of view is that, if a profession has more complex gameplay and lower defense, and they are more effective, that should be noticable in the damage. Whereas I’m stemming from the assumption that I don’t mind the extra work for the same damage if we also get good healing, support and cc options.

Basically, I think it comes down to you preferring extra damage instead, while I value the extra support/healing/combo fields more. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Basically, what I’m saying is: you get something, it’s just not damage.

ThiBash.5634:

Taldren, I think I have found the point at which our communication fails.

Your point of view is that, if a profession has more complex gameplay and lower defense, and they are more effective, that should be noticable in the damage. Whereas I’m stemming from the assumption that I don’t mind the extra work for the same damage if we also get good healing, support and cc options.

Basically, I think it comes down to you preferring extra damage instead, while I value the extra support/healing/combo fields more. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Basically, what I’m saying is: you get something, it’s just not damage.

This is exactly why I like Ele the best over my other classes. When you try to turn your other classes into something besides damage it just seems like you want something from another class.

I made my necro because I spent a ton of gold trying to get a awesome condition build for my mesmer again after the confusion nerf. I tried to make a awesome thief condition build spending alot of money. Both have decent condition builds but they can’t nuke you like a necro and they don’t pose the same threat as a necro or engi when it comes to conditions. Then I found myself trying to get chill into the condition builds and neither of them have good chill application.

I don’t play my mesmer much anymore because like a elementalist a mesmer is also similar to has a bit of everything. It is geared more towards offense but when you try to make a support build with mesmer it isn’t even close to what a ele can do especially for the group.

I made my warrior for direct damage I would never run a condition build on my warrior rofl. A condition warrior has to work much harder to kill someone with conditions than a necro. A condition warrior also is more pigeonholed into what traits to run than a necro. This is basically the same thing that is said in the OP about ele and damage.

reikken.4961:

Taldren.7523:

Too bad most of them are limited to specific attunements that are mutually exclusive to one another. The only ones that aren’t are further limited by other factors. As I keep pointing out … all the hoops that need to be jumped through to get to any sort of reward for the base line risk is insane.

10% damage while in air – fresh air trait lets this be on almost all the time
10% damage within 600 range – obv on all the time when using a short range weapon
10% damage to burning targets – can have pretty good uptime, especially if you combine with the burn on crit trait
20% damage to targets below 33% health – this one is pretty obv

none of these are mutually exclusive in any way, nor do you have to do anything special to get them. and I run all of them on my glass D/x builds

plus precision and crit damage are in the same trait line, and contain two of these damage traits (along with fresh air), as well as the minor trait that does ranged instant damage every time you swap to air (which is very frequently with fresh air). and this same trait line also inflicts vulnerability on crit, which is basically another %damage increase, except it has to ramp up

seriously. see my first post in this topic. I wasn’t kidding

So now we have the ever so popular 20/30/10/0/10 build?

So, if the target is burning, below 33% health, I am in Air, and am practically in melee range … I get to do better than average damage with the least amount of survivability in the game. But if none of those are valid I still get to keep the lowest amount of survivability in the game for just average damage.

I don’t see how that risk/reward works out compared to how its applied to other classes is all.

ThiBash.5634:

Taldren, I think I have found the point at which our communication fails.

Your point of view is that, if a profession has more complex gameplay and lower defense, and they are more effective, that should be noticable in the damage. Whereas I’m stemming from the assumption that I don’t mind the extra work for the same damage if we also get good healing, support and cc options.

Basically, I think it comes down to you preferring extra damage instead, while I value the extra support/healing/combo fields more. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Basically, what I’m saying is: you get something, it’s just not damage.

Listen, I get what you are saying … but your argument completely fails if you choose any other weapon than staff and/or leave the zerg and try to go roaming in WvW. Sure, D/D with Rank100+ is fun against noob players … but in high end small group fights our meger damage output just doesn’t cut it. Scepter isn’t much better with all the setup required to land the decent hits. There is just too much opportunity to fail with only on-par rewards for doing it all right. There needs to be an advantage … not only for the lower survivability, nerfed mobility, but for the absolute complexity and randomness … and it just isn’t there.

In sPvP they took away healing and bunker before that … all that is left is damage.

oZii.2864:

I don’t play my mesmer much anymore because like a elementalist a mesmer is also similar to has a bit of everything. It is geared more towards offense but when you try to make a support build with mesmer it isn’t even close to what a ele can do especially for the group.

Um, have you tried Mantra mesmer? Throwing out 3k AE heals every 3 seconds is sort of nice … on top of the AE Condition removal and AE Stability. With runes that apply group boons on heal it even gets better as you can activate MoRecovery every 10s and recharge it before the next 10s ICD comes up. I usually recharge them in stealth to the frustration of my enemies.

Taldren.7523:

oZii.2864:

I don’t play my mesmer much anymore because like a elementalist a mesmer is also similar to has a bit of everything. It is geared more towards offense but when you try to make a support build with mesmer it isn’t even close to what a ele can do especially for the group.

Um, have you tried Mantra mesmer? Throwing out 3k AE heals every 3 seconds is sort of nice … on top of the AE Condition removal and AE Stability. With runes that apply group boons on heal it even gets better as you can activate MoRecovery every 10s and recharge it before the next 10s ICD comes up. I usually recharge them in stealth to the frustration of my enemies.

Yea I tried mantra heals and those are nice. The condition removal is decent for group support but I don’t think better than ele. Shattered conditions was buffed but they have to be in range of the shatter so it helps the melee’s out and no real control over it like rain. Mesmer support is ok I feel but it definitely isn’t in my opinion up to ele or guardian level.

The Mantra condi removal is where its at … its 2 per cast from you and your group and then a 3k AE heal when you recharge it. Your heal mantra will also remove 2 per cast with the changes, but only from you.

Taldren.7523:

reikken.4961:

Taldren.7523:

Too bad most of them are limited to specific attunements that are mutually exclusive to one another. The only ones that aren’t are further limited by other factors. As I keep pointing out … all the hoops that need to be jumped through to get to any sort of reward for the base line risk is insane.

10% damage while in air – fresh air trait lets this be on almost all the time
10% damage within 600 range – obv on all the time when using a short range weapon
10% damage to burning targets – can have pretty good uptime, especially if you combine with the burn on crit trait
20% damage to targets below 33% health – this one is pretty obv

none of these are mutually exclusive in any way, nor do you have to do anything special to get them. and I run all of them on my glass D/x builds

plus precision and crit damage are in the same trait line, and contain two of these damage traits (along with fresh air), as well as the minor trait that does ranged instant damage every time you swap to air (which is very frequently with fresh air). and this same trait line also inflicts vulnerability on crit, which is basically another %damage increase, except it has to ramp up

seriously. see my first post in this topic. I wasn’t kidding

So now we have the ever so popular 20/30/10/0/10 build?

So, if the target is burning, below 33% health, I am in Air, and am practically in melee range … I get to do better than average damage with the least amount of survivability in the game. But if none of those are valid I still get to keep the lowest amount of survivability in the game for just average damage.

I don’t see how that risk/reward works out compared to how its applied to other classes is all.

dear god no
this is the 30/30/10/0/0 build

There are no valid complaints about elementalist damage. You can complain all you want about having to jump through hoops to stay alive—that’s a perfectly valid point—but doing extreme amounts of damage is incredibly simple for this class.

There are always conditions on doing damage. Am I in range to hit my opponent with this axe? Do I have enough adrenaline to use eviscerate? But sometimes these conditions are trivial. Am I within 600 range? Are you kidding me? My attack has 300 range. Am I attuned to air? Of course I am. It’s practically never on cooldown and I can even swap mid cast.

Taldren.7523:

Listen, I get what you are saying …

I think we’ve both made our points clear at this point. I’ll admit that at least some of your points have merit, but the reason why I have such a hard time jumping on the bandwagon is because I just don’t experience it in the way that you do. As they say, the truth is likely somewhere in the middle.

And yes, maybe I’ve been playing staff too much. Probably played GW2 too much. But I’m having a blast (no pun intended) with it and I can hold my own. When I see that I can burst down the CoF gate controller in a few seconds on my non-zerker build, I feel my dps is fine. The past few weeks in sPvP, I dunno what the patch did to other professions or that I’ve ran into the wrong players, but I have little problems duelling on my staff ele. And I always feel like I’m at least contributing something useful to my team. And mind you, I’m not saying this to brag, I’m trying to illustrate why I feel posts like these are exagerated.

So yeah, the main reason I cannot agree with you is because I don’t experience the same issues when playing my ele. Or at least, not in as large a manner as you describe.

ThiBash.5634:

Taldren.7523:

Listen, I get what you are saying …

I think we’ve both made our points clear at this point. I’ll admit that at least some of your points have merit, but the reason why I have such a hard time jumping on the bandwagon is because I just don’t experience it in the way that you do. As they say, the truth is likely somewhere in the middle.

And yes, maybe I’ve been playing staff too much. Probably played GW2 too much. But I’m having a blast (no pun intended) with it and I can hold my own. When I see that I can burst down the CoF gate controller in a few seconds on my non-zerker build, I feel my dps is fine. The past few weeks in sPvP, I dunno what the patch did to other professions or that I’ve ran into the wrong players, but I have little problems duelling on my staff ele. And I always feel like I’m at least contributing something useful to my team. And mind you, I’m not saying this to brag, I’m trying to illustrate why I feel posts like these are exagerated.

So yeah, the main reason I cannot agree with you is because I don’t experience the same issues when playing my ele. Or at least, not in as large a manner as you describe.

I’m just getting started with ele and I love the staff in PvE but in Spvp I don’t seem to do well. I’d like to be able to hold my own 1 vs 1 and sometimes run support healing build. Can you link me to your build(s) that you are doing well with and give a quick rundown if its not too much trouble?

Taldren.7523:

So now we have the ever so popular 20/30/10/0/10 build?

So, if the target is burning, below 33% health, I am in Air, and am practically in melee range … I get to do better than average damage with the least amount of survivability in the game. But if none of those are valid I still get to keep the lowest amount of survivability in the game for just average damage.

I don’t see how that risk/reward works out compared to how its applied to other classes is all.

Hi, I run 20/30/10/0/10.
Between Internal Fire, Bolt to the Heart, Tempest Defense, and Stone Splinters I get +60% damage just from traits on my phoenix in an earthquake-phoenix combo, with another +10% crit damage from Arcane lightning. Combined with fury on attunement from Arcane Fury and 120% crit damage from zerker means I have about 78% chance to crit for 448% of base damage. Damage is in the second post which you laughed off as a downed uplevel.

Also, 600 range is not “practically in melee range,” at least for S/D. It’s +10% to nearly all my skills.

Edit: fixed the numbers

Kyskythyn.6471:

Taldren.7523:

So now we have the ever so popular 20/30/10/0/10 build?

So, if the target is burning, below 33% health, I am in Air, and am practically in melee range … I get to do better than average damage with the least amount of survivability in the game. But if none of those are valid I still get to keep the lowest amount of survivability in the game for just average damage.

I don’t see how that risk/reward works out compared to how its applied to other classes is all.

Hi, I run 20/30/10/0/10.
Between Internal Fire, Bolt to the Heart, Tempest Defense, and Stone Splinters I get +73% damage just from traits on my phoenix in an earthquake-phoenix combo. Damage is in the second post which you laughed off as a downed uplevel.

Also, 600 range is not “practically in melee range,” at least for S/D. It’s +10% to nearly all my skills.

1. That doesn’t add up to 73%.
2. So now its everything i said before -and- they need to be knocked down/stunned. Another hoop to jump through that is negatable by stability/stun breaks. Nice.
3. S/D build with no Arcana and using Tempest Defense … huh?!?
4. With that build, 2600 Power, and using quake→Phoenix … it hits for 6k … not 12k. Then again you are just plain dead as you have what … 14k hitpoints and no toughness?

Taldren.7523:

Kyskythyn.6471:

Taldren.7523:

So now we have the ever so popular 20/30/10/0/10 build?

So, if the target is burning, below 33% health, I am in Air, and am practically in melee range … I get to do better than average damage with the least amount of survivability in the game. But if none of those are valid I still get to keep the lowest amount of survivability in the game for just average damage.

I don’t see how that risk/reward works out compared to how its applied to other classes is all.

Hi, I run 20/30/10/0/10.
Between Internal Fire, Bolt to the Heart, Tempest Defense, and Stone Splinters I get +73% damage just from traits on my phoenix in an earthquake-phoenix combo. Damage is in the second post which you laughed off as a downed uplevel.

Also, 600 range is not “practically in melee range,” at least for S/D. It’s +10% to nearly all my skills.

1. That doesn’t add up to 73%.
2. So now its everything i said before -and- they need to be knocked down/stunned. Another hoop to jump through that is negatable by stability/stun breaks. Nice.
3. S/D build with no Arcana and using Tempest Defense … huh?!?

Ah, so it does. It would be 10+20+20+10 for 60% more. So 448% instead of 484%.

What’s wrong with no arcana and tempest defense? This is an offensive build.

Kyskythyn.6471:

Ah, so it does. It would be 10+20+20+10 for 60% more. So 448% instead of 484%.

What’s wrong with no arcana and tempest defense? This is an offensive build.

13 second attunement cooldowns + attunement swap cooldown + no fresh air … you must auto attack a whole lot.

Taldren.7523:

Kyskythyn.6471:

Ah, so it does. It would be 10+20+20+10 for 60% more. So 448% instead of 484%.

What’s wrong with no arcana and tempest defense? This is an offensive build.

13 second attunement cooldowns + attunement swap cooldown + no fresh air … you must auto attack a whole lot.

Why would I autoattack?

Taldren.7523:

4. With that build, 2600 Power, and using quake->Phoenix … it hits for 6k … not 12k. Then again you are just plain dead as you have what … 14k hitpoints and no toughness?

1060 * (2420 + (35*6)+200+30) * 1.7 / 1980 * (1+.1+.2+.2+.1+.1) * (1.5+1.2+.1)

1060 high end ascended scepter atk * (2420 base power+ 35*6 stacks of might+200 dragon breath buns+30 minor borderlands bloodlust) * 1.7 phoenix coefficient / 1980 zerk ranger base armor * (1+ .1 internal fire + .2 tempest defense + .2 bolt to the heart + .1 stone splinters+ .1 sigil of impact) * (1.5 base crit damage+1.2 zerker crit damage +.1 arcane lightning) = 12390 dmg

I have 10.8k base health, 1960 armor and am proud of it.

Kyskythyn.6471:

Taldren.7523:

4. With that build, 2600 Power, and using quake->Phoenix … it hits for 6k … not 12k. Then again you are just plain dead as you have what … 14k hitpoints and no toughness?

1060 * (2420 + (35*6)+200+30) * 1.7 / 1980 * (1+.1+.2+.2+.1+.1) * (1.5+1.2+.1)

1060 high end ascended scepter atk * (2420 base power+ 35*6 stacks of might+200 dragon breath buns+30 minor borderlands bloodlust) * 1.7 phoenix coefficient / 1980 zerk ranger base armor * (1+ .1 internal fire + .2 tempest defense + .2 bolt to the heart + .1 stone splinters+ .1 sigil of impact) * (1.5 base crit damage+1.2 zerker crit damage +.1 arcane lightning) = 12390 dmg

I have 10.8k base health, 1960 armor and am proud of it.

Do all the math you like, I just performed it in the real world (as real as a virtual MMO world can be) and under ideal conditions it hit a real target it hit for 6k.

I did enjoy all the extra hoops to jump through you threw in there.

So nows its:
1. Target is below 33% health.
2. You are within 600 units.
3. The target is knocked down … so they didn’t have stability or a stun break.
4. You don’t have weakness on you.
5. You have full stacks of bloodlust.
6. You have full borderland bloodlust.
7. The target is full zerker with zero points in any toughness line.

Why not add that they have 25 stacks of vulnerability and you have full guard killer bonus too?