Guild Wars 2

The general consensus now is that dancing between attunements frequently is the way to play an elementalist. Focusing on only one or two attunements is not viable because an elementalist must utilize all his skills to be on par with other professions. This appears quite accurate a verdict given the state of elementalists currently.

The question is: why must constant attunement swapping be the only viable play for an elementalist in the first place? The impression I get after trying an elementalist is that every elementalist who is not absolutely terrible runs the same build: that of a versatile attunement swapping. Of course there are variations; there are different utility skills and traits (to a certain extent) to choose from, hence introducing some diversity. But essentially every elementalist is required to play the attunement swapping style (and have lots of skills) in order to even begin to touch the other professions in effectiveness.

I think that this is the only viable way of playing an elementalist is a major factor contributing to the problem that many people find the elementalist too weak whereas a small group of top players find them balanced. Swapping attunements according to situation and utilizing all skills are very difficult and can be achieved only by the best. What if builds concentrating on one or two attunements are viable? Then less skilled players actually have an alternative to playing the elementalist, since these builds are presumably much simpler.

A build focusing on one or two attunements will lack the diversity of a build that utilizes all four of them. Thus it would be largely correct to say that these kinds of builds are not as strong as the attunement swapping builds used by elementalists right now. Yet speccing into these focused build should yield enough benefits such that they are still competitive, but with less potential reward than attunement swapping builds. For example, a fire-focused build could be oriented around strong aoe damage. It would have more damage potential than the meta attunement swapping build, but lack the other advantages like support, mobility and survivability, hence being viable but not as effective as the meta build. A water-focused build could boast stronger healing and support abilities (chill and vulnerability), but again lacking others such that it is slightly under the attunement swapping build in effectivenss.

If we look at other professions, we see that most have a diversity of builds like this. Take the warrior. Weapons like axe are considered more potent, more viable than the greatsword. This does not mean that the greatsword is unplayable. Lots of average players enjoy the 100b frenzy combo, which works up until a certain level of play. To bring this playstyle to the highest competition of this game (tpvp) requires a highly skilled warrior, precisely because, while the 100b-frenzy build is viable, it is essentially less effective than the axe in damage dealing. The elementalist could be designed in the same way. Focusing on one attunement is viable on more casual play up until a certain point, where it would largely be rendered inferior unless a very good player can bring it to the level of the meta attunement swapping build. This would eliminate the ongoing problem because the top players would still be able to play the highly demanding attunemet dancing playstyle and reap the greatest rewards, while average players could opt to focus on less attunements and relinquish some of the elementalist’s potential in return for easier control without giving up too much viability.

Indeed, it is possible that the Devs had this vision in mind when they first designed the elementalist, the reason being that there are a lot of traits that are attunement specific and promote staying in a certain attunement for a relatively long time.

To achieve this the elementalist would need to be looked into again. Attunement specific traits need to be strengthened so that staying in an attunement becomes feasible, but somehow it must be ensured that doing so would lose a lot of the advantages of being completely versatile such that the versatile build with the highest skill requirement still reaps the greatest rewards.

I thank those who take the time to read this post and please feel free to give your opinions on this analysis of the elementalist.

Hmmm…

I’m not going to outright disagree with your post, but I think it’s not thought out enough and I also think that the class is fine as is.

The attunement “dancing” is a class mechanic. Period. Although I’ve known people that have made 2-attunement builds work for them, 4-attunement builds are more viable in most scenarios.

I am a D/F elementalist. I chose to become an elementalist early on in the beta weekend events. I chose D/F and created a build for it that I haven’t changed since prior to early access. I’m intimate with all 20 of my weapon abilities. When I participate in combat on my elementalist, I use all 20 of my abilities. I do dance between them. I play them almost like a piano, but I sure as hell just don’t bash 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, F2, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc. I use them when it is situationally valid to do so.

It’s only harder than other classes because you have to remember 20 abilities rather than 10, and the abilities arguably synergize better than most 2-weapon combinations that other professions use. Once you get the hang of all that, it becomes just as second-nature as any other profession.

Now, if the devs WERE to change the profession to make it more 2-attunement build friendly, you’d have to think of the repercussions it’d have on a 4-attunement build. There’s a lot of details that would need to be thought out, and I imagine the profession would be a lot harder to balance if it were balanced around 2-attunement AND 4-attunement builds than just 4-attunement builds.

/2cents

what would be nice would be if the grandmaster traits were changed a little to work maybe something like

one makes staying in that stance a bit longer more rewarding
the other is a more general buff to an aspect of that elements focuses (more explosions, condition removals, control, etc.)

its already kinda present in the traiting a bit, the first tier minors reward staying in a stance, and one of the grandmaster’s is usually called “X-mancer’s Y” (which is awesome) so make that do something to make you really feel like an “X-mancer” (pyromancer’s might thingy is cool… not cool enough though lol :P)

a stance dancer could skim lines to pick up the ones they like.
a dedicated X-mancer could go deep one line and skim others for syngeries
and a dual deep spec would be able to focus on 2 attunement style fighting

i personally think the trait system is robust enough to accomodate 3 different approaches to elementalist building.

hmm this has me somewhat inspired, i will go and work on something….

That was a really long post so I’m laying out the main points here for those who do not want to read all that:

• the only viable playstyle now is changing attunement constantly
• if staying in one or two attunements were viable, then there would be more diversity in elementalist builds
• changing attunements would still be most rewarding, but focusing on one or two would still work albeit with a slightly lower potential
• this could solve the problem now because pros can still utilize all attunements and be the strongest elementalists but average players can enjoy the profession using a playable though less versatile build

Which top players find this profession to be balanced? I see a few “pros” in this board claiming the profession is perfectly fine, but whenever they give us advice, they tell us of the most obvious things we already know about. And the pros in the videos either have an easier time and better success with other professions, or edit them to only show the victories against the weakest players.

Regardless, I think it would be better for our profession if we could indeed focus more on two attunements. However, I am completely against the idea that this should be an inferior playstyle. Do keep in mind that even for people who would focus on two attunements only, they would still have to swap to the other two when needed. Using all four attunements is always going to be relevant.

What I think it should exist, is the ability to have two of them more available at the cost of the recharges of the other two. For example, master major/ grandmaster minor traits that decrease the recharge of their own attunement. Investing in two would mean you would not be able to invest on arcana (as much), especially when you would want to go for 30 points for each of the attunements invested on, to make sure you make the best use of them.

imo this will not work for two simple reasons. One, the cooldowns would have to be lowered significantly on the skills so that there would be anything to cast when switching back and forth. That would make the players who use 4 attunements OP. Players would be able to spam the most powerfuld skills in each of the attunements non-stop lol. Or, the skills would need to be changed or the auto-attack skills would need to be more powerful and both are just crazy.

The OP says, "Swapping attunements according to situation and utilizing all skills are very difficult and can be achieved only by the best. " This is not true. It’s a very simple matter to swap attunements. It’s no more difficult than using a skill. As was said earlier, simply know what the skills are and where they are. Like magic all will fall into place.

I’m a noob and use hot keys on a gaming device rather than the F1-F4 keys. That makes a huge difference for me.

I’m going to flat disagree. You don’t have a damage meter to weigh any kind of results, and you aren’t even clear on what criteria you are grading this classes efficacy on. Your first 4 paragraphs restate the same arbitrary opinion presented as fact.

There are plenty of diverse ways to play this class outside the scope of your attunement swapping theory. For instance in SPvP. Decide what you want to do. Do you want to heal, dps, survive or support? For the sake of argument you choose dps. Dps how? Precision/Power or Conditions? Condition damage builds neglect precision/power. If you use all 4 trees you spread your attributes too thin, and accomplish nothing but repair bills. You go with Condition damage. Condition damage in this class is derived from Earth/Bleed and Fire/Burn. Those are your focus for the chosen task. Feel fortunate you have Air for your travel, and Water for your minor healing and condition removal.

The days of “This is how it’s done” are over. This isn’t about your stand and bang raid rotation and dps meters. Grow beyond that. This is about Synergy and bringing what your group is lacking. It’s about your class being able to slip into any role you elect to play, and do it successfully.

I’ll be happy to entertain your 1 dimensional theory crafting when you have some math to back up your claims. Just because you are only good at one way doesn’t mean you get to pigeon hole the rest of us.

Good point.

Compare with D/D thieves that has ranged weapon on the weapon switch.

Do they need to switch the weapons to be viable? No. All they need is the D/D, sneak nearby and unleash the deadly instadeath combos.

Is it helpful to utilize some abilities from the bow? Of course, but it’s not necessary to faceroll people in low-tier spvp.

As an elementalist, can i faceroll people with just fire? just lightning? no way.

Just want to point out you are comparing two extremes Taku, Thiefs are being criticised for being able to spam one move and find success and Ele’s the complete opposite. Most classes do need to utilize both Weapon sets.

Personally from my very limited experience with Ele, I really like the switching back and forth it makes for a more varied and fun play style and they all have there uses, I might not fight primarily in Air for example but I am able too switch to it and use the mobility spells, I do not see this as a bad thing.

I have also found it no where near as difficult to utilize all Attunements as it has been made out to be on this forum, I’m by no means saying I am pro or utilizing them all to there fullest extent (yet) but from reading the forum I was expecting a steep learning curve.

Someone here at the forums made the effort to test how much more damage attunement dancing provides; so far his results where that it nearly gives no benefit in damage.
I hope he’ll return with more data soon.

it sure doesn’t feel like atunement dancing makes a difference

i think that it should be a good thing for a person to be able to play the class they want the way they want.

some people like to throw fireballs, so they should have a way to build for that.

some people might find appeal in the idea of mixing two elements to produce a greater effect or style (e.g fire and earth condition builds or earth water control)

some people really like the flexible approach that dancing between all 4 gives…

what is truely great about this game is all theses approaches to this class are supported by the way building a character works (itemisation and traits)

i think that analysing it to ensure that theses different approaches are all viable can only be a good thing, because it increases the amount of playing styles and ultimately satisfaction of players playing the class.

i haven’t finished going over everything myself (plus i keep missing stuff every time i go searching around the forums for new builds)

but this is some outlining of how builds accomodating theses 3 styles could work

X-mancer (i’ll be honest, this is actually how i want to play my elementalist)
runs full 30 in only one line, skims other trees for useful little traits/utility skill enhancements, has traits that reward/make the primary focus of the build staying in that attunement
plays by staying in one attunement, only switching when a situation really calls for something else and switching back as possible afterwards.

Dual spec (this style of building is what i believe most people would do, because the game suggests it to you with the how many trait points you are given)
goes deep into 2 lines 30 in each, might grab 10 in something complimentary or otherwise into the arcane line to ease transitioning {also 10 in arcane has probally our best adept trait EVER}, might have a specific role to build towards that is supported by the synergies between the two chosen elements (earth+fire conditions etc.),
plays ironically like most other professions do lol, switching between the two focused elements {like weapon sets} and focused more on a role than anything else. of course like the X-mancer, the other non-speced elements are still there and to be used but only situationally (though certain roles/builds could make use of shifting attunements more frequently due to wider synergies in itemisations {e.g. power is almost universally useful to varying degrees})

finally our profession specific one (which due to it playing on our unique mechanic is the one alot of people would think that we are encouraged to use for optimal play)

stance dancer (attunement dancer, but i prefer the assonance :P, plus old lingo from WoW days)
at least 20 in the arcane probally 30 and then a cherrypicking of traits from anywhere else to produce the desired effects.
plays by shifting rather frequently, procing effects on weapon swap sigils, boons, on attunement spells, focuses on knowing when to use the right attunement while in the heat of battle, rather high skill cap (relatively, due to needing to not only know your spells, but recall cooldowns, and also when switches might help for certain boons/condition removal etc.).

whats even cooler about our profession is that we even get some far out freaky builds that don’t even conform to these ideas. like aura builds and stuff.

i feel that some changes and reinvigoration of our trait trees would really hammer in support for all our varied playingstyles, i’ll give an example (though i would be sure they probally already thought of this and that it is probally this way for a reason)

the minor traits for adept and master for our elements could be swapped.
the adept ones reward staying in an attunement which i don’t think is good that early in the tree because it does very little for the stance dancer who doesn’t hang around in a stance long and also doesn’t necessarily want to commit more points to that trait line.
the master level does a thing on attunement, this seems a little counter intuitive as you were being rewarded earlier for staying in the attunement? and if you leave the attunement you have to wait a fair while before you could attune back to gain the benefit. {this applies much more from a new player perspective}

if they were swapped, then the stance dancer would be rewarded for spreading their points out by having all kinds of effects going off while they shift, yet someone who commits a bit deeper to the line starts to see payoffs to their dedication to the element, but also is able to get some reward from dipping a few points into a second element (supporting all three build styles)

so with just a little tweak like that you can make it so that different players with different tastes can all enjoy the profession that they decided they wanted to play.

{of course, i am very very very certain that arenanet are not stupid, therefore would have already thought of this and since they chose to do it the way it is, there must be a good reason why… which is where our discussion could lead to speculative insights}

People can work all the math they want with what’s provided, but there simply isn’t enough. Arena’s transparency just isn’t there for all the potential factors, the order the math is applied(which matters a great deal when sequencing percentage increases), and just no way to record output accurately.

In a way this is great. I’m super stoked not every Class is going to roll around in the only acceptable uberleet build. We won’t have leet gamers lording over casuals and pressuring them to use the “right” build. From the encounters I’ve been privy to a very mediocre understanding of the synergy between your abilities, and attributes will be enough to get you over the hump. This creates a comfortable, and fun environment for everyone to be a part of.

When it comes to end game content, and pvp Arena has always been about group synergy. So you need a guy to keep heavy bleed up, a guy to keep burning up, and so on. Folks need to specialize in what they do in accordance with what their team mates are bringing. You want to find a way for your team to bring and maintain as many boons and conditions as possible. With those bases covered you can begin to worry about power and precision. The most effective teams blend, and work with synergy to take their enemies apart.

That being said, there will never be a single way to do anything. To preach it would be a display of ignorance. If it ever becomes true you can bet Arena will work to balance and repair that unintentional effect.

The ‘math’ behind attunement switching giving more dps is actually quite straightforward when it comes to the staff.

Staves make combo fields. So when playing in a group, you could stick to Earth and spam your stones. Or you could swap to Fire, drop a Lava Burst, then to Air for a Static Field, and then back to Earth to continue throwing stones.

What just happened there? Well, when you popped Lava Burst, the Ranger on your team fired enough arrows through it to provide burning for a minute or so. He then decided to also fire a few arrows through your static field that cause vulnerability. That’s added damage that your stones simply couldn’t have provided.

On a side note, the Lava Burst combo field effect is also why traits and skills that cause more burning are pointless in a staff build.

I think a bigger problem is that the way weapon skills are designed. Traits are already set up to reward staying in one attunement (possibly not enough) but they still want you to stay in one or two attunements. The problem is that very very very few of our weapon skills can stand on their own.

Fire staff is an example of a set that stands on its own, fully capable of being used as a sole attunement while leveling. Compare it to the other staff attunes, Air being particularly bad (‘Damage’ based attune only having two skills that actually deal damage), but Water and Earth are not based as attunements that you wish to sit in a long time. Situational effects and large cooldowns limit you use of them.

So pretty much weapon skills must be changed to stand on their own before people will consider limiting their access. With all our cooldowns and limited damaging abilities, we have to utilize everything we have. Change that and we will consider just sitting in one stance.

Just yeah, for referance,
Fire:
2: 6
3:10
4:20
5:30
Water:
2:4
3:20(Healing only)
4:40(Chill only)
5:45(Regen and Condition remove)
Air:
2:10
3:30(Knockback only)
4:30(Swiftness and runspeed inhib remover)
5:40(Minor damage and stun if passing barrier)
Earth:
2:6
3:30(Reflect projectile)
4:30(Cripple only)
5:30

That is a lot of skills with no damage and only one effect on fairly hefty cooldowns.

I agree Eimi. The traits need to have more synergy between attunements to compliment the attunement swapping mechanic. I’m all for current element based trait perks, but seems to be too many that focus on the single element and not enough that still allows you to swap and still gain the benefit. I should say too many, “when attune to…” perks.

This is just an idea, but what about if youre attuned to a certain element, you gain a higher chance or better perk buff and when not attuned to get a weaker buff or smaller chance to on other attunements.

Example.

Fire trait perk: 20% Chance to cause a fire flash (burning) on critical hit when attuned to fire. 5% on other attunements.
Air trait perk: 20% Chance to cause a lightning arc on a critical hit to one other nearby foe when attuned to air. 5% on other attunements.
Earth trait perk: 20% chance to cause a dust cloud (blindness) to nearby foes on critical hit when attuned to earth. 5% on other attunements.
Water trait perk: 20% chance to remove all conditions on critical hit when attuned to water. 5% on other attunements.

Just something that doesn’t seem like you wasted points into a trait other than gaining the benefits from the stat (i.e. power, precision, vitality, etc).

I know there are some perks that do this already, but just doesn’t seem thought out and bland.

That’s just me. Others feel like the class is fine. I don’t.

“The ‘math’ behind attunement switching giving more dps is actually quite straightforward when it comes to the staff.”

Where is the strait forward math in your post? Not only did you not use any math, you didn’t even type a number in the whole post. We’re all aware of how our abilities function. Assuming since it’s a forum we can all read. If telling people you stance dance makes you feel good inside by all means please carry on.

Back here in reality what you are expressing is an opinion in no way backed by any facts that can be weighed or measured. In short, cool story bro.

I enjoy being able to switch attunements, it makes me more versatile, and allows me to get the most out of my fight.

I’m not saying i’m pro for being able to freely interact with the four attunements situationally, But it does allow me to be a lot more useful in a fight.

When i’m facing a charging enemy, i’m able to chill them & cripple them, whilst swapping between fire and air to dish out some pretty decent damage.

If they remade the class to be able to suit a two attunement playstyle, believe me, there’d be a lot more forum topics titled ’ We need weapon swap sets’. I don’t find I need weapon swap sets, because the four attunements together give me the ability to control my opponent