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Posted by: Kaleban.9834

Kaleban.9834

As a means of re-balancing the Elementalist, I had a thought, and I don’t know if its been posted before.

One thing that has bugged me is the overlong cooldowns, combined with mediocre effects, damage or otherwise of most of our skills, both weapons and utility. The idea that we have double the skills means half the power FOR BALANCE doesn’t make sense, seeing as how an Elementalist player cannot output skills twice as fast as other professions. This leads to watered down versions of other professions’ skills, and forcing an Elementalist player to play to the hilt 100% of the time to remain relevant.

What i was thinking is that an Elementalist should be able to switch attunements at will (no cooldowns), make most of the skills more powerful AND shorter cooldowns, BUT make each element’s skills extremely focused. For example:

Fire – all skills are AoE damage. Skills like Fire Shield and Flamestrike would be completely revamped to ensure multiple target ability. Nearly all skills would inflict Burning.

Water – all skills are AoE CC, with major healing components and very weak damage capability. Nearly all skills cause Chill, with many causing Weakness. Having one or two skills with Poison might fit in thematically.

Air – all skills are single target ONLY, designed to be our 1v1, dueling element. Nearly all skills would inflict Vulnerability, with several also inflicting Blind. Also our mobility element, with many skills providing Swiftness and/or Vigor.

Earth – all skills are condition only, giving access to pure condition builds. Bleeding, Torment, and Cripple would be the big ones, with major access to control effects like Knockdown, Launch and Daze.

So instead of having four attunements with a hodgepodge of damage, control and support, you have four highly focused attunements which each do something specific. In the above example, you only have two direct damage attunements, one for AoE and one for single target, one condition attunement and one support attunement.

Since each element is so focused, there wouldn’t be as much of a need to blow through all skills and CDs as fast as possible, since the various skills would be individually stronger and have less interactivity. You wouldn’t need to use every Blast finisher on a Firefield just to generate Might for yourself to do decent DPS, as the skills would be more powerful. Now, blasting for Might would have the same benefit as any other profession, and not be a requirement just to break even.

Traits that rely on weapon/attunement swapping, such as Elemental Attunement can easily have ICDs added to avoid power creep, or revamped to be more synergetic with a profession design that utilizes attunements based on the tactical situation, rather than the requirement of rapid cycling.

But the tl;dr version is that I don’t want to have to switch to Water for Frozen Burst as part of a necessary Might stacking rotation, I want to be able to use it to snare foes or blast a field for some other beneficial effect, while at the same time not locking out other attunements that I might need as the battle situation changes.

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Posted by: petyr baelish.9675

petyr baelish.9675

Why change what isn’t broken?

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Posted by: ArmageddonAsh.6430

ArmageddonAsh.6430

Why change what isn’t broken?

Though i would agree its not “broken” i would say for Earth attunement is VERY poor as a “condition” attunement. I would love to see it get access to Torment. I would love to see D/D get a way to counter Range spamming classes and builds, especially those that constantly cripple.

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Posted by: sorrychief.2563

sorrychief.2563

we do have tools to counter ‘range spamming’ classes.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chilled
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crippled

champion magus
previously rank 2 on old leaderboards
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Posted by: petyr baelish.9675

petyr baelish.9675

Why change what isn’t broken?

Though i would agree its not “broken” i would say for Earth attunement is VERY poor as a “condition” attunement. I would love to see it get access to Torment. I would love to see D/D get a way to counter Range spamming classes and builds, especially those that constantly cripple.

Earth is a defense/CC attunement and is working fine.

D/D has projectile block, gap closers and cc, what more do you need against a range spamming class? If they range you from a relatively safe spot they can be quite annoying but once you catch up to them they won’t be running away.

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Posted by: KieronWolf.5108

KieronWolf.5108

Why change what isn’t broken?

Though i would agree its not “broken” i would say for Earth attunement is VERY poor as a “condition” attunement. I would love to see it get access to Torment. I would love to see D/D get a way to counter Range spamming classes and builds, especially those that constantly cripple.

Earth is a defense/CC attunement and is working fine.

D/D has projectile block, gap closers and cc, what more do you need against a range spamming class? If they range you from a relatively safe spot they can be quite annoying but once you catch up to them they won’t be running away.

Earth is also considered a damage-over-time attunement according to the in-game description.

D/D doesn’t have any projectile block/reflect and RTL is thrown on a 40sec cd if evaded. A thief and a mesmer can kite a D/D ele for days.

Edit: Magnetic Grasp is also buggy, slow and clunky.

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Posted by: petyr baelish.9675

petyr baelish.9675

Why change what isn’t broken?

Though i would agree its not “broken” i would say for Earth attunement is VERY poor as a “condition” attunement. I would love to see it get access to Torment. I would love to see D/D get a way to counter Range spamming classes and builds, especially those that constantly cripple.

Earth is a defense/CC attunement and is working fine.

D/D has projectile block, gap closers and cc, what more do you need against a range spamming class? If they range you from a relatively safe spot they can be quite annoying but once you catch up to them they won’t be running away.

Earth is also considered a damage-over-time attunement according to the in-game description.

D/D doesn’t have any projectile block/reflect and RTL is thrown on a 40sec cd if evaded. A thief and a mesmer can kite a D/D ele for days.

Edit: Magnetic Grasp is also buggy, slow and clunky.

Ring of earth blocks projectiles. I’m not claiming to be an expert when it comes to pvp but although people that range can be troublesome it is managable. I agree about thieves being uncatchable, but i really don’t see how you cannot catch a mesmer, unless you eat all the izerker attacks.

The thread has derailed and is getting more attention than it should. All I wanted to say was that I like the current ele class mechanics and I don’t want it changed. Buffs, sure, but don’t touch the rest please.

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Posted by: KieronWolf.5108

KieronWolf.5108

Why change what isn’t broken?

Though i would agree its not “broken” i would say for Earth attunement is VERY poor as a “condition” attunement. I would love to see it get access to Torment. I would love to see D/D get a way to counter Range spamming classes and builds, especially those that constantly cripple.

Earth is a defense/CC attunement and is working fine.

D/D has projectile block, gap closers and cc, what more do you need against a range spamming class? If they range you from a relatively safe spot they can be quite annoying but once you catch up to them they won’t be running away.

Earth is also considered a damage-over-time attunement according to the in-game description.

D/D doesn’t have any projectile block/reflect and RTL is thrown on a 40sec cd if evaded. A thief and a mesmer can kite a D/D ele for days.

Edit: Magnetic Grasp is also buggy, slow and clunky.

Ring of earth blocks projectiles. I’m not claiming to be an expert when it comes to pvp but although people that range can be troublesome it is managable. I agree about thieves being uncatchable, but i really don’t see how you cannot catch a mesmer, unless you eat all the izerker attacks.

The thread has derailed and is getting more attention than it should. All I wanted to say was that I like the current ele class mechanics and I don’t want it changed. Buffs, sure, but don’t touch the rest please.

Hmm wonder why that isn’t in the tool tip, thanks for letting me know. I agree with you though, I don’t want the class mechanic to change I find the current function incredibly fun. I do however wish RTL was never nerfed or maybe had a 30/15cd and MG was actual reliable. I also agree with Ash, we lack good condition application.

As someone who mains mesmer as well as ele, I’ve never really had an issue kiting other D/D eles with Staff & Sword/X. If the mesmer is using a GS, then they’re easy prey.

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Posted by: paleeshi.1924

paleeshi.1924

Why change what isn’t broken?

I think op just wishes to have each attunements to be niched into a certain purpose, rather than have to use all attunements all the time.

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Posted by: Conncept.7638

Conncept.7638

Why change what isn’t broken?

We went 6 months without a single viable PvP build, and three more with only one. Previously we had a build so powerful the devs had to nerf every single defensive skill we had just to bring it down. And now as of last patch we’re up to a whopping three, sort of, in reality they’re all variations on the same old arcane/water bunker build with new weapons. So in reality, we’ve gained basically nothing.

If this class is ever going to have any build diversity, it needs some major mechanical changes, largely to the class mechanic. We have no innate defense from our class mechanic like every other low armor class, no defense in 3/5ths of our trait trees viable for a class with such low armor and health, and a single tree required to have sufficient skill up-time to make an investment in damage viable. And the developers ponderous antics have proving nothing more than no amount of buffs or nerfs will ever address those issues.

Anybody who says the elementalist isn’t broken is disillusional.

That said I don’t think the OP is a particularly great idea, or that it would fix the problem. This is just pushing us further along the same path, we won’t gain build diversity from this we’ll just be pigeonholed to a new extreme.

(edited by Conncept.7638)

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Posted by: Magi.8643

Magi.8643

Personally i would think it better to have all all attunments on a 10 cool-down without having to invest into arcane. They could then change the attunment recharge boost on the arcane line to instead reduce the cool-down on weapons skill up to a maximum of 30%, this would mean that the X alacrity traits in the other line would have to be changed/remove.

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Posted by: petyr baelish.9675

petyr baelish.9675

Oh my it seems i turned this thread into a ‘serious’ discussion thread.

Why change what isn’t broken?

We went 6 months without a single viable PvP build, and three more with only one. Previously we had a build so powerful the devs had to nerf every single defensive skill we had just to bring it down. And now as of last patch we’re up to a whopping three, sort of, in reality they’re all variations on the same old arcane/water bunker build with new weapons. So in reality, we’ve gained basically nothing.

If this class is ever going to have any build diversity, it needs some major mechanical changes, largely to the class mechanic. Everything the developers have done shows that nerfs and buffs have not and will not ever suffice. We have no innate defense from our class mechanic like every other low armor class, and we have no viable defense in 3/5ths of our trait trees, and we are forced in to a single trait tree if we want our skills to even have sufficient uptime to make any investment in damage worthwhile. It’s no wonder we have no build diversity.

Andybody who says the elementalist isn’t broken is disillusional.

I don’t think the OP is a particularly great idea, but it’s at least something, more than claiming everything is fine when it isn’t.

^Parroting regular forum QQ. Eles shine in PvE and are good in WvW so a complete class overhaul just for 1 game mode would really bother me.

Back in the day the one build to rule them all you mentioned was good for WvW roaming, competitive teams mainly used staff eles.
A lot has changed since then and last time i checked it was worth it to invest in all other trait lines, fire might be a slight exception. There are a lot of different builds out there using different weapons and traits.
Our ‘innate defense’ is a combination of mobility, CC, boons and heals. So yeah, you actually have to use your skills in order to stay up instead of going lul don’t care hs warrior.

I do agree has been quite disheartening to play ele in pvp the last few months because of the kittened kitten the devs pulled, doesn’t really have to do anything with class mechanics. However due to the buffs to celestial amulet and strengt runes I feel like we have a chance again. It was definately a move in the right direction and i’m curious what they have in store for us next.

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Posted by: ArmageddonAsh.6430

ArmageddonAsh.6430

Earth is a defense/CC attunement and is working fine.

D/D has projectile block, gap closers and cc, what more do you need against a range spamming class? If they range you from a relatively safe spot they can be quite annoying but once you catch up to them they won’t be running away.

Earth is meant to be the Condition/ Damage of Time attunement as well. What does Earth have when it comes to Conditions, Bleeding and Cripple.

Dagger MH: Terrible auto attack with Bleeding. decent Bleed and Cripple on Ring Of Earth and an Immobilize that is SO buggy and unpredictable if it will work.

Dagger OH: Nothing on Earthquake for conditions and Great bleeding on Churning Earth, shame its near impossible to land.

Scepter: Great Auto attack. Nothing on Rock Barrier. A decent Line AoE blind.

Focus – Nothing.

Staff – Easily dodged auto attack. Good Bleed on Eruption, easily dodged though. Long low stack Bleed on Shockwave

Overall, for Conditions it is seriously underpowered.

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Posted by: petyr baelish.9675

petyr baelish.9675

Earth is a defense/CC attunement and is working fine.

D/D has projectile block, gap closers and cc, what more do you need against a range spamming class? If they range you from a relatively safe spot they can be quite annoying but once you catch up to them they won’t be running away.

Earth is meant to be the Condition/ Damage of Time attunement as well. What does Earth have when it comes to Conditions, Bleeding and Cripple.

Dagger MH: Terrible auto attack with Bleeding. decent Bleed and Cripple on Ring Of Earth and an Immobilize that is SO buggy and unpredictable if it will work.

Dagger OH: Nothing on Earthquake for conditions and Great bleeding on Churning Earth, shame its near impossible to land.

Scepter: Great Auto attack. Nothing on Rock Barrier. A decent Line AoE blind.

Focus – Nothing.

Staff – Easily dodged auto attack. Good Bleed on Eruption, easily dodged though. Long low stack Bleed on Shockwave

Overall, for Conditions it is seriously underpowered.

I don’t care what the tooltip says, it’s wrong, earth is CC and defense. If you want conditions as your main dmg source go play a different class (except the conditionalist guy).
The focus earth skills are so bad, they definately should definately change those kappa.

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Posted by: sorrychief.2563

sorrychief.2563

kek earth focus useless? that’s the only thing making focus worth using.

champion magus
previously rank 2 on old leaderboards
EG.secret.OG.NAVI.sorrychief

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Posted by: petyr baelish.9675

petyr baelish.9675

Your sarcasm detector broke also: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Kappa

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Posted by: ArmageddonAsh.6430

ArmageddonAsh.6430

I don’t care what the tooltip says, it’s wrong, earth is CC and defense. If you want conditions as your main dmg source go play a different class (except the conditionalist guy).
The focus earth skills are so bad, they definately should definately change those kappa.

“Attune to earth, gaining superior damage-over-time and defensive abilities. "
Thats from the Wiki

Need i say more?

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Posted by: Zephyrus.9680

Zephyrus.9680

This is probably the most boring suggestion I’ve ever seen for an elementalist and completely against the whole concept of the class.

If you don’t want to have to switch between 4 attunements to get kitten done there are 7 other classes that fit that style. Some of us do enjoy playing with all 20 skills all the time.

Zefyres – Ele | Maguuma | (ex) top100 solo/teamQ casual | Youtube

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Posted by: Mattmatt.4962

Mattmatt.4962

I-ve already say it on other topic, and i’ll continu until you get it:

STOP willing attunement to be role-specific. That’s the biggest ele’s issue.
Bassicaly what you’re saying is: i need something, so i have to go in this attunement, but those kittening attunement have 10sec CD!!!
10sec is Twice the time required for a thief to kill you, or for a warrior to land you TWO evicerate.

Every attunement needs evade/cc (hard or soft)/damage mitigation, cause you can’t wait 10sec to get one exept if you want to die. Currently its the case ( DD: evade in fire, chill in water (well its crap, but its there ^^), mobility + cc in air, soft and hard CC in earth).
Every weapons should get a buff on the condi side cause its really poor. Elementalist is supposed to be the jack of all trade, but we can’t build decently for condi (no i don’t think that current “condimancer build” are viable once you compare them to real condi build). It’s obviously hard to balance cause improving it so much could give a bonus so big for power build.
Maybe give a condi weapon to ele ? (that’s an idea, i’m not sure to support it myself ^^)

What i said earlier about element having to be non-specific is true for trait too. Why are we currently stuck with 20+water & arcana ? Cause it provides survivabilty. Gives every line both survivabilty AND dps and build diversity will shrine.

By the way i really think that the class bonus from the arcana line should be revamped cause until then, we’ll ALWAYS see 20+arcana.
Attunement CD should be flat 10sec.
As replacement for the bonus, i thought to skill CD reduction. Like 2% per point (for a total of 12% on max arcana) and maybe remove all alatracy trait (32% is too much on my mind). I don’t think its to OP and it partially adress the issue of kittening high CD on half our skill (the other half beeing already on lower couldown than attunement it wouldn’t be an issue to lower their CD by 1-2sec since we still wont last 10sec in an attunement).

I’m far from saying its THE idea, its maybe more OP than i think, someone maybe has a better idea.
But i assert this: we need flat 10sec attunement for build diversity’s sake

Tempest seems made careful not to make ele better in any way, since that would be bad

It does the job well :-)

(edited by Mattmatt.4962)

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Posted by: ArmageddonAsh.6430

ArmageddonAsh.6430

So you want Ele to have LESS cool down reduction? O.o
I would rather we keep the alacrity traits so i can get the reductions for the lines i WANT than to have to have 12% but in all attunements.

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Posted by: Mattmatt.4962

Mattmatt.4962

i donno, i feel like 30% would be too much, maybe reduce alatracy to 10% but then it just moving the issue, people will have to go max arcana + alatracy to get the 20%.
Maybe keep the trait has they are but cap the max CD reduction to 20%. seems legit.

Tempest seems made careful not to make ele better in any way, since that would be bad

It does the job well :-)

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Posted by: ArmageddonAsh.6430

ArmageddonAsh.6430

i donno, i feel like 30% would be too much, maybe reduce alatracy to 10% but then it just moving the issue, people will have to go max arcana + alatracy to get the 20%.
Maybe keep the trait has they are but cap the max CD reduction to 20%. seems legit.

I would say change the Alacrity traits to be more like the traits other classes get, where they get a buff for weapons as well as cool down reduction. Make the traits be the buff part and make Arcane line be the cool down reduction. Still keep it at 20% though

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Posted by: storiessave.3807

storiessave.3807

“Attune to earth, gaining superior damage-over-time and defensive abilities. "
Thats from the Wiki

Need i say more?

The wiki isn’t maintained by ArenaNet, so any info on there is from players, not them. Blame whoever put that on the wiki.

As for the suggestion, while ele can use some tweaks, I think specializing attunements to do one thing and one thing only would be a pretty terrible change. I like the diversity we have now, and I don’t see how sitting in earth attunement would be a fun implementation of a condition build.

Also, by making each attunement only specific to one specialty, you’d have to eliminate (or nerf when combined with another skill) certain things. You can’t move every CC we have to water and expect it not to be OP to be able to drop all those things at once. Furthermore, water being all CC and high heals would be pretty imbalanced – for example, you can’t have a skill that AoE stuns/damages and gives a massive AoE heal at the same time unless it has a ridiculously high CD (and maybe not even then). Having things spread out between attunements is a much better, balanced design, and I’d rather that not change.

Tarnished Coast

Catorii | Lustre Delacroix | Catorii Desmarais | Synalie

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Posted by: sorrychief.2563

sorrychief.2563

I was responding to that other guy at a attempt to try and be funny like you

I play dota, trust me on this, I know what Kappa means.

champion magus
previously rank 2 on old leaderboards
EG.secret.OG.NAVI.sorrychief

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Posted by: Eucalyptus.9784

Eucalyptus.9784

Am I the only one that has read this that think it sounds overpowered beyond belief? You clearly haven’t played many other classes if you think Ele’s have it rough with regards to being able to play how you want/be viable.

Hybrid PU Clone Spam Build – Chaos Clones

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Posted by: musu.9205

musu.9205

Am I the only one that has read this that think it sounds overpowered beyond belief? You clearly haven’t played many other classes if you think Ele’s have it rough with regards to being able to play how you want/be viable.

You are not that only one , not at all .
This forum is keeping amazing me .

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Posted by: musu.9205

musu.9205

Every attunement needs evade/cc (hard or soft)/damage mitigation, cause you can’t wait 10sec to get one exept if you want to die. Currently its the case ( DD: evade in fire, chill in water (well its crap, but its there ^^), mobility + cc in air, soft and hard CC in earth).

No you don’t need that , all you need is adding all those said abilities to one button.

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Posted by: petyr baelish.9675

petyr baelish.9675

I’m stunned this thread got this much attention.
People really should learn to play ele instead of wanting to change the class. Every time i visit this forum there are at least 1 or 2 threads like this on the first page, kinda makes me sad.

I was responding to that other guy at a attempt to try and be funny like you

I play dota, trust me on this, I know what Kappa means.

I’m sorry :p.

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Posted by: Grimreaper.5370

Grimreaper.5370

we do have tools to counter ‘range spamming’ classes.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chilled
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crippled

with most builds in mind, its not enough to keep some classes at range with their excellent condi removal and mobility in mind, it does do the job vs most though.

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Posted by: Conncept.7638

Conncept.7638

Oh my it seems i turned this thread into a ‘serious’ discussion thread.

Why change what isn’t broken?

We went 6 months without a single viable PvP build, and three more with only one. Previously we had a build so powerful the devs had to nerf every single defensive skill we had just to bring it down. And now as of last patch we’re up to a whopping three, sort of, in reality they’re all variations on the same old arcane/water bunker build with new weapons. So in reality, we’ve gained basically nothing.

If this class is ever going to have any build diversity, it needs some major mechanical changes, largely to the class mechanic. Everything the developers have done shows that nerfs and buffs have not and will not ever suffice. We have no innate defense from our class mechanic like every other low armor class, and we have no viable defense in 3/5ths of our trait trees, and we are forced in to a single trait tree if we want our skills to even have sufficient uptime to make any investment in damage worthwhile. It’s no wonder we have no build diversity.

Andybody who says the elementalist isn’t broken is disillusional.

I don’t think the OP is a particularly great idea, but it’s at least something, more than claiming everything is fine when it isn’t.

^Parroting regular forum QQ. Eles shine in PvE and are good in WvW so a complete class overhaul just for 1 game mode would really bother me.

Back in the day the one build to rule them all you mentioned was good for WvW roaming, competitive teams mainly used staff eles.
A lot has changed since then and last time i checked it was worth it to invest in all other trait lines, fire might be a slight exception. There are a lot of different builds out there using different weapons and traits.
Our ‘innate defense’ is a combination of mobility, CC, boons and heals. So yeah, you actually have to use your skills in order to stay up instead of going lul don’t care hs warrior.

I do agree has been quite disheartening to play ele in pvp the last few months because of the kittened kitten the devs pulled, doesn’t really have to do anything with class mechanics. However due to the buffs to celestial amulet and strengt runes I feel like we have a chance again. It was definately a move in the right direction and i’m curious what they have in store for us next.

“We went 6 months without a single PvP build”
Response: “Parroting Ele forum QQ. Eles shine in PvE and WvW”

Nice reading comprehension there. You want to bring up how I stated thieves are OP too?

The ele has major design flaws in its class mechanic which prevent it from being properly balanced and I covered them. More importantly, you didn’t even have the balls to respond to them except in childish labeling and a paltry listing of mechanics that entirely ignored the issue. Nothing you listed is ‘innate’ to the ele, we have to build for all of that. Our defensive weapon skills already have drawbacks from the attunement system and vary greatly in efficacy from one weapon to the other, our defensive traits are exclusive to two trees, and our defensive utilities don’t even number in the half dozen. Meanwhile, there are no drawbacks to constantly high armor and HP or a decent functional class mechanic.

Look at our new if you don’t believe me, past and present. What do you notice? Same group of utilities, same two trait trees, in every single build. If we have sufficient ‘innate’ defense, why is every single build we have dependent on slotting the exact same defensive skills and traits? Because we don’t, we have to build for a level of defense that everyone else has by merit of their class.

And no, either you weren’t even here or you are making up nonsense to push your opinion. The developers themselves stated the DD bunker was a problem in PvP in three different livestreams, and there are hundreds of threads on the build in PvP from a year ago. I used the build myself, as did most eles, it was really all we had in PvP. And when DD was nerfed we had no PvP builds for months before the staff came in to the scene, which was a highly team dependent build, nothing for the average pug player. Honestly, if you don’t idea what you’re talking about, try listening, and maybe next time you actually will.

(edited by Conncept.7638)